Story Discussion - Shadow of Revan through KOTET

[OldVengeance]

Hey folks,

 

Hey, that's the line I was going to quote!

 

Since Valkorion is one of the biggest discussion points lately, and it's been a while so I feel like it's free range to discuss, I'll just lay out everything we had in mind for Vitiate/Valkorion and y'all can have something concrete to discuss and/or kick me about

 

**HEAVY SPOILERS BELOW**

 

Centuries before our story begins, Tenebrae becomes Vitiate, becomes Emperor of the Sith, and leads the survivors of the Sith into exile to Dromund Kaas. He rules directly for many years.

 

As years go by, he becomes more and more dissatisfied with the Sith Empire he's created. He finds himself increasingly distanced from the Sith philosophy that first brought him to power and sees it as a dead end (as he expresses several times in KOTFE/KOTET) and, with the immense power at his disposal, begins striking out in search of something better. This is when his "long periods of silence" begin.

 

He discovers Zakuul, which is in a comparatively primitive state (by Star Wars tech standards, anyway) and dominates Valkorion, as he describes in KOTET Chapter 2. He learns the ancient legends of the gods, of the Eternal Fleet, etc, and investigates them with his considerabe resources. By this point, he has certainly already started the collection of rare and powerful technologies and artifacts that we find in the Arcanum, his vault on Nathema, etc. He (or perhaps agents working for him, such as the Servants) finds the Eternal Fleet disabled in deep space and is able to seize control of it (based on how ARIES talks, we can be fairly sure that neither Valkorion nor his agents ever visited Iokath itself).

 

The technology of the Fleet helps him raise Zakuul still further. In his Valkorion persona, he constructs a more stable society that he finds more interesting, one that has more potential to let him explore different experiences for centuries to come (his quote above and his many claims of Zakuul being the bestest thing ever). So now, he just needs to ensure that he'll live forever, and that nothing else will threaten his new creation. The ritual (the one the Jedi Knight ultimately stops) will serve both purposes, so he sets that plan in motion, kicking off the Great Galactic War between the Sith Empire and the Republic. (I don't think it's much of a stretch to believe that he could avoid destroying Zakuul, which is waaaay out at the outer edge of the galaxy, when using a ritual that he himself is creating over many, many years, but that should've been something we at least let Jedi Knight players ask.)

 

Then, Vitiate abruptly stops the war, proposes a treaty claiming seemingly-random planets, and starts the Cold War. An obscure step in his plan to complete the ritual? Makes sense, though if we look at how old Valkorion's children appear to be, they'd be getting born right around this time... coincidence?

 

Senya tells us that Valkorion started becoming colder and more distant as the children grew up, so we can surmise that he's splitting his attention again during this period. The assault of Sel-Makor and the final attack by the Jedi Knight take a lot out of him. His ritual is thwarted, and he is too weak to dominate another body or risk Valkorion until he's reinvigorated by Revan's plot in SoR - otherwise, he would've surely done so. He could've used the Fleet to cause the necessary deaths, but he wasn't ready to reveal its power to the galaxy yet - more on that shortly.

 

The events of Shadow of Revan give him the boost he needs to become active again - and he does so in spectacular fashion on Ziost, all while playing up his "evil destroyer of everything" Vitiate persona to the max. He's greatly reinvigorated, he's dealt a significant blow to the Sith Empire (which had been rapidly increasing in strength after Rise of the Hutt Cartel), and he's baited the player and their allies in one fell swoop. All of which leads inexorably to the confrontation in the throne room in the beginning of KOTFE - but why?

 

For this, we just have to look at the last person who ever stood up to Vitiate at anywhere near the level that the player's character did on Ziost: Revan. When Revan took a crack at him, Vitiate locked him up for centuries, picking and prodding at his mind the entire time. So we know that Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion doesn't destroy people who are a legitimate threat to him; he's fascinated by them. He entraps them, studies them, manipulates them, and corrupts them. (He did it to Vaylin, too! And Dramath!)

 

So, to review: Valkorion has been revitalized; he's got a tremendously powerful fleet; he's got the Republic in the weakest state it's been since the treaty of Coruscant and the Sith Empire not far behind; he's discovered a new threat that can actually take a shot at him; and he's got a wife who's left him and children that he finds deeply disappointing (see pretty much any time he ever deigns to speak to them) in line to take over his supposedly perfect society. Time to solve all of his problems at once!

 

He spurs his son's bloodlust and ambition by setting him and the fleet loose on the galaxy (now that they're definitely in no state to resist the fleet's power or endanger Zakuul). He lures his new enemy into a trap and captures them. He arranges his own "death", whether by the player's hand or Arcann's, and invades the player's mind. Arcann and Vaylin do exactly what he expects, which is to generally muck up the galaxy and establish themselves as tyrants in need of overthrowing. And then he arranges and guides the player in doing just that, all the while laying the groundwork for dominating their mind at the moment of their victory and commanding a newly-reshaped galaxy as a heroic liberator - an all-new experience to try out. Too bad it didn't work out for him

 

So, all of this leads to a perfectly reasonable question: why didn't we just come out and say this in the game?

• First, we only have so much room to tell a story, so we have to pick what seems most crucial. If a detail isn't vital to understanding the plot or really entertaining or personal, then we don't have time to spend talking about it. Maybe we assessed things wrong, or aimed to cover too much ground in too little time so too much was left out - perfectly fair feedback, and something I would certainly take moving forward. But in principle, there will always be details we don't explain purely because we don't have time to do so.
  
• Beyond that, I don't like explaining every single detail of everything anyway. I think it's boring. It's boring to write, and it's (almost always) boring to experience as a player. It's fun to read in a Wookieepedia article sometimes! But I don't think it's the job of the story to lay out every single thing (the movies certainly don't do so). Plus...
  
• Mysteries are fun, and I like leaving at least a few things up to players to work out, theorize, or decide for themselves. Surely it's more fun to leave some things to the imagination?
  
• Selfishly, it's good for us as writers to leave some things vague so that we can expand or change them later. For example, I never said anything about Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion's original body anywhere up above, because I think it'd be a pretty cool plot element to explore someday. Maybe we won't get around to it, maybe we will, but if it's something that we can't give a lot of love now and want to do later, I won't hesitate to leave it out so that we have room to do so. Plus, as this thread plainly demonstrates, people don't like it when you retcon past details, so if those details aren't there to retcon...
  
• Lastly, and this is specific to this particular situation, but the only real source that could give the player all of this information directly is Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion himself. There's clearly no reason he would tell someone about a lot of these things if his goal is to seduce and destroy them, so we used more indirect means to reference them where it made sense.
  

 

So, there's my giant post about Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion and our reasons for going about it as we did. Having a reason to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do, of course, so I'm happy to hear everyone's feedback and take it in mind going forward. But, as usual, please be cool about it and be respectful to one another

 

Though as others have clarified, I haven't been the Lead Writer since late 2015

 

I'm also really appreciative of some official answers from Bioware about the game's story. Especially since, even though I did mostly the story quite a bit, the Valkorion/Vitate stuff always felt like a glaring plot hole. I had concluded that it was just a retcon we were never going to get explained. I'm grateful we got a post like this because it does clear up some important stuff, but I still think there are problems with some of these explanations.

 

First and foremost, mechanically, it doesn't quite add up to me. How could he have been active in two bodies across the galaxy at the same time? We knew the Jedi Knight destroyed his body on Dromund Kaas, and he then became a disembodied spirit that went dormant. But now we learn that he was an unstoppable disembodied spirit AND he has another body on Zakuul? And that spirit still had to exist at a physical location, such as Yavin IV or Ziost. Did his spirit need to flee from Ziost to Zakuul for Valkorion to awaken? And if he had two bodies anyway, then what is the Voice of the Emperor for? Why did the Hand need the Warrior to free him by killing his Voss host?

 

Second, I also had a hard time reconciling Vitiate's motives and personalty with Valkorion's. Vitiate wanted to consume life in the galaxy to become a god, and suddenly his goal is just to rule a small empire in the very corner of it? It seems like a drastic downgrade, and it contradicts what Scourge tells us about him. I guess the line about becoming and experiencing everything sort of explains it, but it's weird that his new creation is in the same galaxy he seemed so uninterested with and that the first new thing he wanted to experience is being "A slightly different Immortal Emperor." I remember before Knights of the Fallen Empire first came out, some people thought that the Eternal Empire might be from the Rishi Maze.

 

Thirdly, Vitiate came very close to succeeding with his ritual to destroy the galaxy. Even with the resources of the Sith Empire alone, the Jedi Knight barely managed to stop him. If Vitiate also had a fleet powerful enough to defeat both the Republic and Empire in addition to that, then why would he care about exposing it's power to the rest of the galaxy? They could have easily helped his minions succeed at starting the ritual and then everyone who could threaten him would be dead.

 

And perhaps most glaringly, if Vitiate was reinvigorated on Yavin, then why does Valkorion seem to much less powerful than Vitiate? On Ziost, he is presented as being almost totally unstoppable and he is powerful enough to destroy an entire planet by himself, even though he doesn't have a body. He doesn't even seem to need one anymore. But Valkorion's spirit seems to need you as a host to survive, and having his physical form destroyed seems almost enough to kill him. The Outlander can even say "It's you who needed me." Also, the carnage that Arcann and Vaylin cause is surely far greater than what Revan does, yet, why doesn't that nourish him enough that he becomes even more powerful?

 

And if he's been primarily focused on being Valkorion for centuries, then he also never properly explained how Ziost changed everything.

 

For what it's worth, for a while I had assumed that maybe Valkorion and Vitiate were deliberately meant to be a sort of parallel to Izax and Zildrog. Zildrog's legends are much older, but when the Old Gods came to be worshiped on Zakuul, he was considered to be a different side of Izax, just like how Vitiate and Valkorion are essentially different aspects of the other. When the Heralds of Zildrog prophesied the return of the Great Serpent which would then "rain death upon Zakuul" while we ominously got a closeup of Zildrog's statue, I thought this might have been foreshadowing the return of Vitiate. And the people of Zakuul would finally experience his "no more Mister Nice Guy" persona that Valkorion had been hiding from them.

 

What is helpful about this post does explain what Valkorion's goal was, because the game does not. The idea that he wanted to become the savior of the galaxy by turning Arcann into a tyrant and then possessing the Outlander after they overthrow him is something that I can buy. And it does make sense with what Vitiate said about "I have decided that life is more interesting with you in it."

 

What I don't understand is how anyone could have thought explaining what his motives were was not a crucial detail in the story. Chapter 9 of Kotet explains that he wanted your body, but it never explains why he wanted your body. And it even seems to imply that he wasn't expecting to be struck down by the Outlander or Arcann. I was left with the impression that he had no particular plan back when we first encountered him at the start of Kotfe, and he spent all this time just trying to get back to where he started.

 

Personally, I'm also kind of happy to hear that it's not impossible that the writers could go back and revisit the character later with Tenebrae's original body and such. It was always a little dissapointing to me that his two "families" never got to meet and compare notes, or that no Zakuulan character ever got to encounter his "destroyer of all" Vitiate persona.

 

Personally, I thought Valkorion and Vitiate were both interesting villains. I'm not sure I can say one is better than the other, just different. But they don't really feel like the same villain. And if they were meant to be the same villain the transition from one version to the other felt extremely jarring. Both of them had great voice acting, but the fact that Doug Bradley just said "Goodbye" and disappeared before suddenly being replaced by a cool but very different voice in Darin De Paul, kind of makes me feel like players still have unfinished business with that version of Vitiate.

 

If Chapter 9 of Kotet was truly the end of the character, I can't help but feel it would have been nice to see all his different aspects and personalities in the dreamscape. He was trying to take over the player character's mind and body, so looking back, one thing that might have been cool is if the Outlander had to fight past the old Vitiate, the current Valkorion, and the dark Valkorion version of yourself that he was trying to become.

 

 

Ultimately, my biggest problem with KOTFE and KOTET is something I know a lot of other players think:

Vitiate and Valkorion are not and should not be the same person. Honestly, I would have preferred an explaination like what happened with Revan to the end result (i.e. when the Knight struck down the Emperor, his soul was split apart and Valkorion, who was another puppet / child remained active and formed another personality for himself, while the actual Sith Emperor is still sleeping / somewhere else).

 

Vitiate and Valkorion are too different for me to properly reconcile the idea that they are meant to be the same person. Valkorion feels like a completely different character from the Emperor we have met in the Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior stories. The goals of Vitiate and Valkorion don't mix well and I cannot shake the feeling that Valkorion was originally conceived as a completely separate character who was later turned into another form of Vitiate, as if someone came up with the concept of the Eternal Empire, thought it was a great idea, but the only way to put it into the game itself was by saying it was another project of Vitiate's. This, to me, is the equivalent of saying "A Wizard did it".

 

Nothing of the characterization we have of Vitiate, primarily through Lord Scourge (whatever happened to him?!), seems to be present in Valkorion. According to Scourge, "domination holds appeal to him. Only power". This to me seems very much at odds with Valkorion, who seems to want nothing but dominate. He wants to lead the Eternal Empire, dominate the galaxy and be worshipped as a savior and God. If Scourge is to be believed, Vitiate cares about none of these things. His very own line that you wanted to quote, "I will spend eternity becoming everything: a farmer, an artist, a simple man. When the last living thing in the universe finally dies, I will enjoy peace, and wait for the cycle to begin again" just doesn't work for Valkorion.

 

Yeah, I'm with you here. Very well said. In some ways, Valkorion almost came across to me like they regretted the writing or direction of the character of Vitiate and wanted to write a second draft of their Immortal Emperor villain or something. He very much seemed like he was meant as a reboot of the character.

 

So you are saying that Revan's efforts to "temper his hate", as he puts it, while his prisoner had absolutely no part in this? That would diminish Revan's role in this even further.

 

Revan's "I tempered his hate" explanation already never really made sense even before we learned of Zakuul. Vitiate was still trying to devour the galaxy regardless of whatever Revan did or did not do.

 

Question: what was going on with Valkorion while the Sith Emperor was out cold? Did he just sit on the Eternal Throne for months unmovingly, and no one dared to approach him to see if he was alright? Since it's stated in KOTET that Valkorion was "hollowed out" by Vitiate to serve as his vessel, I don't assume that the original Valkorion persona came back for a bit, or that "Valkorion" was on auto-pilot for a while. That also makes me wonder if the Hand knew about Zakuul and Valkorion.

 

This is another very good question. Especially since the unprecedented setback the Knight dealt him was presumably not something he had intended would happen.

 

I'm not sure in regards to Vaylin. I think KOTET makes a very convincing case that Vaylin was simply a threat to him because of her very unnatural Force aptitude and the potential to become even stronger than him. He caged Vaylin's damaged mind via the rituals on Nathema to "disciple" her. I cannot help but wonder if Vaylin would not have been a better host body for him than the Outlander, ESPECIALLY an Outlander who is not a Force user. Also, from what I recall from my last read of "Revan", I can't recall that the Emperor ever really considered Revan a threat, but more of an oddity that piqued his interest for a bit. Vaylin on the other hand was a Force user with tremendous raw power and the potential to very well surpass him.

 

Personally, I don't think so. Vaylin was extremely powerful but never displays the kind of planet killing, galaxy threatening powers as Vitiate. But I still don't understand what his longterm goal would have been with her. It is true that corrupting and controlling her would have been in character for Vitiate, but in the end, all he really uses her for is enslaving her spirit to help him control the Outlander.

 

Question: what would have happened if Arcann didn't literally stab Valkorion in the back following the Outlander choosing to submit to Valkorion in chapter 1 of KOTFE? Would he have taken the Outlander's body then and there? Personally I would have considered the Outlander becoming Valkorion's new right hand a more interesting turn of events than how it actually played out. Likewise seeing Valkorion stringing Arcann along all this time feels a bit wrong from a story point of view. Looking back to "Sacrifice", it always seemed to me that he was expecting something "more" from Arcann than just military victories by use of brute force. The fact that he didn't mature at all until he is potentially recruited by the Outlander doesn't help either. Afterall, Thexan seemed a lot more balanced than his brother and the "Brothers" shortstory at least suggested that Thexan was closer to being in Valkorion's "favor" than his brother as a result.

 

My feeling from the trailer was that Valkorion was not only pitting them against eachother, but that Arcann seemingly had finally earned his favor at the cost of him taking Thexan's life. Hence the "Come with me, son." But it wasn't clear from the game what his purpose for doing so was. And little evidence of Valkorion bestowing that favor on Arcann seems to be present in the game's story. Senya even asks him why he played their sons against eachother and he says "You know why" and then never tells us.

Edited July 2, 2017 by OldVengeance

[AlrikFassbauer]

KOTFE feels so much disconnected. I cannot find a single point of connection to anything pre-KOTFE -

- except a little bit of name-dropping within the story, of course.

Edited July 2, 2017 by AlrikFassbauer

[ZionHalcyon]

Since Vitiate being Valkorion was a pretty bad retcon, how about this as a suggested course correction to get the story back on track with what the players desire?

 

Valkorion was the better side of Vitiate that he discarded and forced onto the original Valkorion, falling in line with Charles thoughts of Valkorion being dominated.

 

This was done long ago as Vitiate pursued his sith goals. Sort of like those tales of someone splitting themselves into a good and a bad version of themselves. This would actually reconcile the good things that those close to Valkorion had to say about him.

 

However senya says in conversation that at one point the emperor began to grow cold and distant. This could be retconned into Vitiate having a need 4 his former good half and slowly inserting himself back into valkorions personality.

 

The reason for this would it be two fold. One, the death of the invading zakuul army provides tons of death to feed Vitiate, and two, having recognized our player as someone unique in the universe, we caught his eye as Charles said.

 

Vitiate coming back to "reclaim" Valkorion was a strategic move, and us defeating Valkorion still leaves Vitiate at large, to pursue his openly stated goal of consuming all life in the galaxy and remaking it as its god.

[Ylliarus]

There are 2 things that I consider to be, for me, the main issues of KotFE and KotET and the expansions that came prior to it. First of all, a lot of what I am going to say is already being discussed in this thread so I'd love for others and maybe the Devs to have a look at it: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=926123

 

So, first of all, story individuality is one major thing that I consider to be an issue with the latest two expansions. As we all well know, SWTOR was a game that was famous and successful for the fact that they had a unique story narrative that no other mmo had at that moment, namely 8 unique and individual storylines for 8 seperate classes. It was the very thing that had captivated and enchanted me about this game. With the first expansion, RotHC, however the amount of unique storylines was brought down to 2, namely one Republic and one Empire. I was completely fine with it, because I could play through Makeb twice and not have the exact same narrative both times. Shadow of Revan however was the first expansion where we know the modern style of storytelling, namely one storyline for each class and both factions with variations based upon background from the original storyline. Yet SoR added something that still gave us some story uniqueness and individuality, namely 8 short quests that were class related and each of those 8 narratives was unique. I loved it, it still gave some sense of "I can play through SoR multiple times on various classes and still have a sense of individuality and unique story". Yet with KotFE and KotET that sentiment completely changed.

When I first played through both expansions I was one of the biggest fans of the narrative, because I can't deny that the story in both KotFE and KotET is truly amazing and expertly written in my opinion. Yet when I played through both expansions a second time, choosing a Dark Side playthrough now, majority of my positivity was taken away. Why, you ask? Because despite the fact that I played it as a Dark Side toon I had 90% of the story be exactly the same as my first playthrough, despite the fact I played as a different class, different faction and different alignment. While this made me sad, that was not all. I also noticed that despite the fact I was a different class this time, my background was treated incredibly generic and almost the same as my first playthrough. On Dromund Kaas my Sith Warrior acted as if she had never been to the place and cared quite little for the planet, while in fact it was where her rise to power had started. There was so little acknowledgement of my character's background in both expansions that it felt as if she was a blank slate, especially because she reacted to various stuff exactly the same as my Jedi Consular had and that made me feel as if neither of them had any personality anymore. That was completely different with SoR, where we still had a lot of individuality as each class. Yes, the main story was for both my Consular and Warrior the same, but it completely didn't feel like that. Both backgrounds from both classes were constantly acknowledged and even impacted the main story. Yes, in KotFE and KotET we had a few little nods to our original classes, but it was exactly that, small nods that in my opinion made no difference at all in the feeling of the playthrough.

So what is it that I try to say with this first issue? What I would want to see in future story content is a lot and a lot more story individuality with the narrative. I am not asking for 8 unique and seperate storylines (although that is my dream), but what I do want to ask for the story team is to throw in as much original class story flavouring as is possible. Don't hold back on it, as what I saw from the reactions in the thread I linked above it is really missed in the story of the latest two expansions. Maybe even go back to what you had done in Shadow of Revan and give us short story quests that are unique to each class. It would have been epic if with every chapter we had in KotFE and KotET we'd have a short sidequest that was unique to each class and had like an overarching narrative that was furthered alongside the mainstory in each chapter. It would have skyrocketed my opinion of both expansions and made each playthrough feel truly unique. It would also break through the "train run"-narrative feeling I got from KotFE and KotET, that we had a few branches in the story that were supposed to add a feeling of individuality, but it wasn't enough as whatever you did you still were kind of forces into some choices or didn't have the option to act as you truly wanted to or what you felt was right. Which is a bridge to the second main issue I had with KotFE and KotET.

 

The second thing that majorly bothered me with the latest two expansions was the fact that we never got the opportunity or option to return to our original faction or to defect to the enemy of our original faction. Not only would that have taken away the critique I hear very often now, namely that people want to see multiple unique storylines, but it would also have allowed us to remain with the classic SWTOR Empire vs Republic, Jedi vs Sith theme that I love and adore, and surely many others with me.

While I was playing through KotFE for the first time on my Jedi Consular I was waiting and waiting for the moment that I'd get the chance to say "thank you for the rescue, but I have the Jedi and Republic to save from damnation" and speed to Corsucant or Tython ASAP. Sadly, that opportunity never came and when I had to play my Consular as the Commander of a joint Alliance between Republic and Empire defected forces, I felt it to be very off (in my personal opinion). The concept was interesting, of course, but in my opinion it would have been better to have played it as a totally new protagonist instead of as a continuation of the 8 class story characters, in my particular case the Bar'senthor.

I would have loved to for example around Chapter 9 seen the opportunity to abandon Odessen and take who wanted to go with you back to the Galactic Republic or defect to the Sith Empire and continue the story from there. It would have been an interesting choice as it would have allowed for three unique storylines to be made, namely one Empire, one Republic and one Alliance (aka the one we currently have with the two expansions).

 

In the Empire storyline we could have tried to gain the trust of Empress Acina and try to manneuvre to the top of her Imperial court in the first chapters after our arrival. Once we'd have succeeded in that we'd make Acina our pawn, allowing for her to be the public face of the Empire. She'd say the words but the words would be ours. It would fit either of the 4 Imperial class stories lore-wise as well. Darth Nox/Occlus/Imperius could officialy be made an advisor to Acina while the Wrath would publically become her personal executioner, while both in fact controlled her from the shadows. The Imperial Agent could be named her new Minister of Sith Intelligence while the Bounty Hunter could have received the rank of Captain in the Imperial Guard, while both behind the scenes ruled the Empire through her. The subsequent chapters could have been about cementing Acina's rule to have a stronger grip over the Sith Order and Imperial Military to subsequently mobilize them against the Eternal Empire. The last chapter could still have been a great battle and the events would enfold like they did before, but instead over Odessen it could have been over Korriban or Dromund Kaas. KotET subsequently could have enfolded very much like it did but it would have been Sith Empire vs Zakuul from the start. Chapter 2 could have had a slightly different beginning but otherwise it could remain the same. The last chapters would only require some changes, where you battle for the Sith Empire to take control of the Eternal Throne.

For the Republic there would be a different story, where you return as either the Hero of Tython, Bar'senthor, Smuggler or Trooper to find Saresh in control of everything behind the scenes. As either of the 4 Republic classes you'd embark on a mission in the first chapters after returning to gather key figures from the Jedi Order and attempt to rebuild them as you know they'll be the key to fighting the Knights of Zakuul and to help you get Valkorion out of your mind. Subsequently you'd attempt to help the Galactic Senate regain some of their previous control over the Republic and work on stopping and thwarting Saresh's attempts at remaining in power from the shadows. While doing this you'd also work on rebuilding the Republic fleet and army, gathering support in secret to eventually be able to oppose the Eternal Empire. Arcann would take note eventually and launch an attack on either Coruscant or Tython in the last Chapter, where you'd beat him very much like was the case in the original playthrough. KotET again would enfold without any major changes except that it's the Republic leading the fight against Vaylin. In Chapter 2 you'd attempt to form a Republic-Sith Empire Alliance but the same thing happens with the Genoharadan. At the end however you resolve the issue with Saresh and also bring an end to that plotline. The Republic ending of KotET would be them controlling the Eternal Throne but for peacekeeping purposes mainly, while also preparing for the inevitable renewed conflict with the Sith Empire.

 

What I mainly want to point out with this description of a 3 unique storyline version of KotFE and KotET is that I feel there is a very strong sentiment with the player community to return to the original concept of the game, Galactic Republic vs Sith Empire. We got a first step in returning to it with the Iokath expansion, but there we could only ally ourselves with either the Republic or the Sith. What I have seen around the forums and heard from friends ingame is that a portion of the players also would want to be able to fully return or defect to one of those two original factions. I still hope for example that my Empire's Wrath will be able to leave the Alliance and return to helping lead the Sith Empire against the Republic and their Jedi Defenders.

 

So with this elaborate thread I hope to have provided the community but mainly the Devs at Bioware with my perspective on the story and narrative as well as what my issues are with it and what my possible solutions would be. I really hope it will reach your eyes and it would be absolutely epic if it got a reply, but I understand if it won't.

 

Nonetheless, thank you for all the time and effort you put into the game and for us players! Especially through threads such as these you prove all those people saying "Bioware doesn't care about us" wrong, as it is completely and utterly evident that you do care a lot. Thank you for the amazing stories that you give us, despite the fact it may not always be what we want to see, and I can't wait what you have in store for us in the future!

Edited July 2, 2017 by Ylliarus

[BlackSilverRoar]

I really liked the 9 chapters from KOTFE, great story and was different, but absolutely didn't have the replay value of SoR.

 

Replayed SoR on 3 dozen or so toons (can't say I cared for the ops: Temple of Sacrifice - I avoid that one; the story and ending for that ops was at best 'meh'). Rishi storyline was fun, and Yavin was a good dailies area - finally, 2 quest areas that didn't look depressing!

 

KOTFE played it on 1 toon; don't want the hassle of playing another toon through.

Edited July 2, 2017 by Willjb

[Costello]

I really hope that what is said in this thread are taken on board by the creative team as for a number of often personal and different reasons the Kotfe and Kotet story arc's fell somewhat short.

 

For me, if we look at the original story arc (I'll take Sith Warrior) we can see where things were done well. While an important person in the galaxy (though clearly working for a mad man) you work your way through the 3 chapters obtaining a ship, giving freedom of movement and a loyal (Quinn included) crew and your very own apprentice. This sets you up for the pivotal RPG character, powerful but still an agent of another person with 6 to 8 companions where a personal story can be told, the narrative is open to go here do this or do that. The downside is your not overly bright as your solution to most things is to kill or force choke everything till you get your way. Not much forward thinking. But this is all makes sense ship + small crew + Sith agent = sent to planet to solve problems (i.e complete quests).

 

Then we move on the latest story arc and we are fighting a force god who can wipe out all life on a planet in his weakened state, so straight off we have a big bad that is impossible to beat but not to worry we are the hero and either through over gearing or numerous respawns we will beat him. But in this story we have all our loyal companions taken away, our ship taken away and one story fits all plot device with a guy that is meant to be the big bad (or your old employer) only now his not the big bad his the benevolent god emperor worshiped by all who has found a better way to understand the force no light or dark or grey but duty. Then to take things one step further we are made the nominal leader of a faction, which becomes the most powerful faction only we are still taking one companion and personally doing whatever Lana or Theron tell us.

 

Now any RPG requires a system of quests and rewards and unless you have infinite resources to create some kind of sandbox with responsive dialogue and millions of quests all the options will have to come back round to doing whatever quest is set before you. However the setup made it so you feel as though you should be calling the shots and end up being dictated to and taking a secondary role to your advisers who have been forced upon you after losing the companions you spend 4 years with. While constantly being show episodes of keeping up with the Valkorians where they raged and raged and raged yet still inspired loyalty and worship from their people and managed to conquer the galaxy. Clearly thanks to the fleet as it surely wasn't because of any tactical ability or option to inspire.

 

While the Valkorians immense power seems to stem from the Force which is akin to a fantasy story going with well Magic Did it. I believe it was Lucas who said once you have set the rules for your universe you have to stick with them, where as what we saw with the Valkorians is The Force allows for get out of jail free cards. His dead but not really cause of the force, he is weakened but can devour all life on any planet he choses cause of the force, he stop time, force you to live through visions, etc etc etc cause of the force. At a certain point your left with a story that is so far removed from anything comprehendable your left with a feeling of what is the point. Stab Arcann, he lives, shoot Arcann's ship down he lives, disrupt his healing ritual and kill his mum he lives? Must be because of the force, cause magic did it!

 

Now the whole Valkorian being the Sith Emperor jars, perhaps it can be explained perhaps the explanation is trying to fit something that doesn't work. But the entire expansion was more problematic in that it would take the game in a direction it isn't capable of doing justice to. Here you are owning your own base and your doing heroics set in the galaxy 5 years previously to get rep with your faction division heads for no apparent use nor do you seem to have any choice involved in that base nor it give you any benefit from having it. While the story is galaxy wide and massive more than one person has mentioned why haven't your companions returned given the entire galaxy knows who you are and where to find you. They all just happen to be on a planet that doesn't get any signal?

 

If you can tell a massive galaxy spanning war story, amazing and great but if you can't do it justice its better to tell the story of a small crew say 6 people on a fury class medium size ship and make it personal and involving them.

[Shwarzchild]

Thanks for taking the time to address the story, or at least get discussion started revolving around SOR through now.

 

In my opinion, we all started playing or got hooked on playing, this game due to the class stories and companion interactions. Most people fall in love with Bioware games not because the stories are so great, but the companion interactions and stories tie people to each game. This game started no differently. Some of the vanilla stories were wonky, but the player wanted to go forward so that they could grow with their crews. The biggest problem with the expansions this game has seen recently (namely the knights duo) was that:

 

1) we received so many companions that had no experience attached to them. Or I should say the companions with the experiences attached to them had been removed and "replaced" by a glutton of companions with one off stories and zero future engagements. The backbone of bioware gaming (i.e long time unique companion interactions that tie the player to the character and the game) was completely lost therefore devaluing the experience right off the bat.

 

2) The uniqueness of the classes themselves were destroyed by using one class fits all approaches. SOR got away with this slightly by the inclusion of the class story mission on Rishi, but none the less it was a one size fits all. It's irrelevant that the studio claims they can not do any more class stories. This game's foundation is built on class stories and class specific companion crew interaction, and without separate class stories and class specific companion crew interaction no story that will come to this game will ever suffice. It's the unfortunate truth that the developers most likely know and understand. Regardless, without that the story will not be what the player base wants it to be. I've seen this game through vanilla until now and what I feel confident in saying is that with no class stories, and no continuation of companion stories the story will suffer in perpetuity.

 

3) SOR suffered from this next point far less than Kotet and Kotfe. The over reliance on instances and small scale exploration was a killer for me. To exit the game proper to enter a chapter while needing to exit the chapter to go back to the game proper was something I found cumbersome and disconnecting.

 

4) When it comes to Kotfe and Kotet, I understand what Charles is getting at however I did not think what he was getting at here came through cleanly when the story was live. The stories did have far too slow a pacing, and the chapters themselves were too much filler. The alliance alerts were wasted and I think fell flat. I liked the idea of the alliance alert, however, they weren't executed well. To me alliance alerts were there to be more than simply companion return fodder (where the companion got a small mission that usually wasn't very satisfying).

 

It all comes back to companion connection, and class stories overall. The former being the thing that sucked the real desire to experience the expansions on more than one playthrough. Having my companions taken from me only to be force fed 100 more companions that mean nothing to my specific character was just the blow that made me hate kotet and kotfe more than anything else.

 

Quality wise, even with the greater emphasis on cinematics (which I believe were overused in kotet and kotfe but their quality was stunning) if compared to vanilla, vanilla wins hands down. I don't care about the alliance or being the outlander or zakuul. The story never really connected me to any of them in ways that I felt invested in whereas in vanilla I felt invested in the character and the world I was playing within.

[ZionHalcyon]

I really hope that what is said in this thread are taken on board by the creative team as for a number of often personal and different reasons the Kotfe and Kotet story arc's fell somewhat short.

 

While I don't know that this was originally the case, I think it's a good sign that they didn't just close out my original story thread but instead opened this one.

 

My Hope Is that the feedback in the other thread has prompted them to take story feedback a bit more seriously, and open their eyes to the strong discontent with the retcon of the emperor and the current story Direction.

[DanNV]

I appreciate Charles taking the time to explain Valkorion's past and motivations to us, and it really did help it make sense, but it felt extremely contrived. I wasn't convinced it was anything more than a hamfisted retcon. Valiant effort though!

 

(snip)

 

Where KotFE was brought low by too many long winding corridors to fight through, KotET was brought low by too many gimmicks. There are chapters I dread because of endless corridor fights and others I dread because I hate walker combat. Some of that is ok with one playthrough, but it really crushes my interest in replays.

 

Iokath was horrible. (snip)

 

Agreed. Good points here.

 

What I miss from vanilla.

 

Most of it. The vanilla game is still by far the best part of the game.

[NomadFifteen]

Two cents from a Star Wars lifer. The below are my feelings, I do not speak for anyone else, and if you agree with me thank you, and if you don't, I respect your right to a different opinion.

 

I grew up on Star Wars. Saw it at age 7, and devoured the idea and mythos. Read the books, and even in my forties I still will turn on Star Wars Rebels, or plug in one of the movies to watch when the mood hits.

 

The game when it first came out, even with its bugs at launch, was Star Wars. Each class had a story to tell, and after you played all eight and saw how they were interconnected it was something that made you want to replay again to see if you missed something the first time.

 

RotHC and SOR lost some of that feeling, but I still felt like I was playing in the Star Wars universe. While streamlining the story by removing the class stories, at least there was some acknowledgement of the previous game time and the stories it told.

 

Then came 4.0 and 5.0. And the Star Wars feel was gone. I wasn't working for the Empire or Republic, I was a character shoe-horned into a one-size-fits-all story that was rambling, disjointed, and just not fun to play. The story was not engaging, and the villains where so over the top boring it became a space-bar fest to move on. My story I had built over the years was tossed out the window to be replaced by something that was supposed to be Star Wars, but instead felt like we were being mocked by the writers and developers.

 

The story was either not well written or well developed. I don't know which, but it really did not make me want to go through it again and again. Choices matter was a war cry, but when we tried to make a choice the story often would not let us. Characters we wanted to kill we couldn't (until part 2) and the last chapter fell flat because the story/writers/developers would not let us take the action the previous chapters led us to. I felt more like a secondary character in the story than someone who the story was being written about.

 

I refuse to play any of the new chapters on my toons, and am skipping Iokath. This is not a Star Wars story, it is something that makes me sad to see made it into the game. I am only doing Vanilla through SOR now on new toons, and even on the ones I forced throught KotFE and KoTET. I understand this leaves me out of a lot of the new expansions, but until it feels like Star Wars again the new stories are filler, not a story that I feel continues what was started in Vanilla.

 

I keep hoping that maybe in 6.0, the lead in will be us waking up, and our LI coming out of the refresher, while the first line spoken is 'Wow, I just had one odd dream.' If you get the reference, then you are as old as I am, and I hope it put a smile on your face.

[ZionHalcyon]

Something I want to say about class story and the studio decision at the time of the massive staff turnover to no longer pursue class stories going forward.

 

Class stories were the most beloved part of this game at launch and what got it the critical Acclaim it received. I am including companion stories in this as well.

 

On the flip side I completely understand that class stories cannot be continued forever as that requires a lot of resources and a lot of budget. No gaming producer will allow a blank check for future content.

 

There is a solution given where the game is now.

 

Instead of unlimited class story like what was advertised at the beginning or continuing the story on and on and on, plan to wrap up the overall story at level 100.

 

A perfect lead in would be a final confrontation with emperor Vitiate as he tries to consume the Galaxy and realize his pre Knights of the Fallen Empire dreams. That would be something that would be worthy of the Sith and the Republic joining forces, after which they can go back to war leading to a Star Wars the Old Republic II if there ever is such a thing.

 

Once you have the end done, those freed up story resources can go backwards into the game and start putting their efforts into releasing class story slowly and over time. Go back over planets like Yavin 4 and Makeb and put class stories into them.

 

Start feeling in class stories wherever you can and once that is all complete, future stories can be told through daily areas and flashpoints and heroics and operations, which hopefully would have a significantly lower cost. Those stories can be side stories of things going on while the main story was happening, and can certainly be inventive as well as repeatable.

[docbenwayddo]

... References and stuff I get ...

I'm not sure if you participated in the original thread that got split into two, this being the story part, but you seem like you'd know what I meant when in that thread I cracked wise with:

We were living in the Happy Days of swtor story when they decided to move us across Milwaukee and give us Laverne and Shirley. Travel plans got confused and we didn't even end up with Mork and Mindy in Colorado, but instead we end up in Chicago, suffering through Joanie Loves Chachi for 2 seasons.

I also would echo a lot of what you said. It was marketed as, but widely missed the mark of, delivering "my personal story." It lead to "my personal story" being stalled at Ziost for 92.3% of my characters.

I continue to hope against hope that it's a bad anchovies from Pizza the Hutt fever dream we can wake from, or the moment on Ziost when holocom with Marr/Saresh is interrupted is when Vitiate actually enters your mind and uses you as focus group for his reality holonet show pitch.

I'll take me and my crew icefishing on Csilla for 7 years if it means my characters never have to be associated with Zakuul at all.

[ExarSun]

"1) we received so many companions that had no experience attached to them. Or I should say the companions with the experiences attached to them had been removed and "replaced" by a glutton of companions with one off stories and zero future engagements. The backbone of bioware gaming (i.e long time unique companion interactions that tie the player to the character and the game) was completely lost therefore devaluing the experience right off the bat.

" .....so much this. Iokath was still the same...what 1 meaningful short dialogue with the companions and thats it?? Nooo!

 

Relationship and interactions with companion must come back as they were in vanilla. Why...we even got Arcann(choice dependant) and there is almost no interactions with him...he and the outlander could say so much to each other. Other than this i somewhat enjoyed KOTFE and KOTET, and i wish there were story more often. As of now half an year and barely no story, with probably half more to wait. Group content is fine but once its been done tens or hundreds of time it grows boring.

[santafaye]

i did enjoy the class story's SoR and the 25 chapters .how ever you need a new story you killed off all the bad guys..how ever valkorians father said something that made me wonder if its possible..sorry it's early he said he had sired many off spring .and made me think if valkorian could of had siblings that may have thought like tenebre and i didnt read anything that said his siblings all died on nathama ...and it would have been awesome to see a great reunion story with vette and risha ..its just sad to see when you get people in there its like one is all about solo content and one is all about PVP..WoW has been out over a decade and still has raids every expansion new dungeons and thousands of quests you have alot of dead planets in this game mannan poor place has one FP zakkul swamps only good for farming .anyway just some thoughts ..i still love the game although it gets quite boring at times ..games like this need content to keep the interest of the players..and it would be cool as well to maybe give us another round of class missions im sure the team will rock something out ..

[ZionHalcyon]

Something I want to say about class story and the studio decision at the time of the massive staff turnover to no longer pursue class stories going forward.

 

Class stories were the most beloved part of this game at launch and what got it the critical Acclaim it received. I am including companion stories in this as well.

 

On the flip side I completely understand that class stories cannot be continued forever as that requires a lot of resources and a lot of budget. No gaming producer will allow a blank check for future content.

 

There is a solution given where the game is now.

 

Instead of unlimited class story like what was advertised at the beginning or continuing the story on and on and on, plan to wrap up the overall story at level 100.

 

A perfect lead in would be a final confrontation with emperor Vitiate as he tries to consume the Galaxy and realize his pre Knights of the Fallen Empire dreams. That would be something that would be worthy of the Sith and the Republic joining forces, after which they can go back to war leading to a Star Wars the Old Republic II if there ever is such a thing.

 

Once you have the end done, those freed up story resources can go backwards into the game and start putting their efforts into releasing class story slowly and over time. Go back over planets like Yavin 4 and Makeb and put class stories into them.

 

Start feeling in class stories wherever you can and once that is all complete, future stories can be told through daily areas and flashpoints and heroics and operations, which hopefully would have a significantly lower cost. Those stories can be side stories of things going on while the main story was happening, and can certainly be inventive as well as repeatable.

[Nmyownworld]

First, Charles Boyd thank you for taking time to post about Valkorion/Vitiate.

 

Near the end of the Ziost story, Lana makes a comment about the Emperor perhaps being concerned about what the player's character could do. The Smuggler's conversation choices in response were disbelief that someone as powerful as the Emperor was concerned about the Smuggler. That's pretty much my reaction to Vitiate/Valkorion having laser focused interest on my Tech-based characters.

... I am reposting what Charles said about the Vitiate / Valkorion storyline from his perspective.

 

--

 

For this, we just have to look at the last person who ever stood up to Vitiate at anywhere near the level that the player's character did on Ziost: Revan. When Revan took a crack at him, Vitiate locked him up for centuries, picking and prodding at his mind the entire time. So we know that Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion doesn't destroy people who are a legitimate threat to him; he's fascinated by them. He entraps them, studies them, manipulates them, and corrupts them. (He did it to Vaylin, too! And Dramath!)

Revan and Vaylin -- powerful Force users. Dramath -- daddy issues. I get why they'd hold V's interest.

 

My Smuggler -- doesn't want to work in a cantina, and earns a living just under the law's radar. My Bounty Hunter -- wants to know who's paying, and how much, on the next contract. My Trooper -- leads a Star Wars version of the Dirty Dozen. My IA -- frankly, since her class story ended, even I'm not sure exactly what she's up to.

 

I adore my characters. Still, I see nothing in my Tech-based characters that would make V notice them, or not squash them with the barest effort if he were aware they exist. Yet, with the end of the Ziost story, and then into KotFE, I'm supposed to believe V thinks they are absolutely fascinating. I'm sorry, but that's a total immersion breaker for me.

 

SoR was a team effort, but the stars of that story were Lana and Theron. I enjoyed SoR. I still relish the end of the Legacy of the Rakata FP every time I see it. However, I never thought of my character as the leader in SoR. Just one of many fighting against Revan.

 

Ziost was again the Lana and Theron show. My character was their muscle, "go kill this, go get that."

Ziost wasn't as much fun to me as SoR, but I like it.

 

In KotFE, I think the story’s focus is about Senya, Arcann, Vaylin, and Valkorion. KotET provides more story involvement for the player's character, but the main story is still about the Zakuul ruling family.

 

Do I think KotFE and KotET are interesting stories? Yes, if I were reading them in books. As a part of playing SWTOR, no, I don't think the stories are interesting. I felt like I was running alongside, watching, someone else’s story.

[ZionHalcyon]

First, Charles Boyd thank you for taking time to post about Valkorion/Vitiate.

 

Near the end of the Ziost story, Lana makes a comment about the Emperor perhaps being concerned about what the player's character could do. The Smuggler's conversation choices in response were disbelief that someone as powerful as the Emperor was concerned about the Smuggler. That's pretty much my reaction to Vitiate/Valkorion having laser focused interest on my Tech-based characters.

 

Revan and Vaylin -- powerful Force users. Dramath -- daddy issues. I get why they'd hold V's interest.

 

My Smuggler -- doesn't want to work in a cantina, and earns a living just under the law's radar. My Bounty Hunter -- wants to know who's paying, and how much, on the next contract. My Trooper -- leads a Star Wars version of the Dirty Dozen. My IA -- frankly, since her class story ended, even I'm not sure exactly what she's up to.

 

I adore my characters. Still, I see nothing in my Tech-based characters that would make V notice them, or not squash them with the barest effort if he were aware they exist. Yet, with the end of the Ziost story, and then into KotFE, I'm supposed to believe V thinks they are absolutely fascinating. I'm sorry, but that's a total immersion breaker for me.

 

SoR was a team effort, but the stars of that story were Lana and Theron. I enjoyed SoR. I still relish the end of the Legacy of the Rakata FP every time I see it. However, I never thought of my character as the leader in SoR. Just one of many fighting against Revan.

 

Ziost was again the Lana and Theron show. My character was their muscle, "go kill this, go get that."

Ziost wasn't as much fun to me as SoR, but I like it.

 

In KotFE, I think the story’s focus is about Senya, Arcann, Vaylin, and Valkorion. KotET provides more story involvement for the player's character, but the main story is still about the Zakuul ruling family.

 

Do I think KotFE and KotET are interesting stories? Yes, if I were reading them in books. As a part of playing SWTOR, no, I don't think the stories are interesting. I felt like I was running alongside, watching, someone else’s story.

 

Felt the same way.

[MingusPho]

SoR felt very much like something from the SW universe. Eternal Throne didn't at all. I thought a different people's interpretation of ths force was interesting but not as a replacer for established lore.

 

Since my character came from the known SW universe and those conflicts, it was hard to care about a whole new cluster of stars where my reality/history didn't exist.

 

As a fiction writer I've always been taught that the hero drives the plot. Eternal Throne felt like getting on the wrong bus lol.

 

Taking things away that someone put forth any effort to achieve just isn't fun. I could see maybe losing one main companion (i.e. Nadia for the consular) because they have leadership abilities or real power. But taking them all? I was surprised I wasn't stripped naked at that point.

 

Valkorian talking to me inside my head when all I wanted to do was play the game really destroyed my interest in any story. His vulkan mind meld moments had poor timing. It was just exhausting every time he surfaced. So much so that I would stop playing and find something else to do.

 

Maybe others had a different experience but this is just how I saw it. Thanks for reading😊

[casirabit]

My view on the story.

First I did enjoy the story but I have some things I would like to address. I am not sure what limitations you were working on when you created the stories.

 

For Sor: It was okay and I did enjoy it but what I didn’t like was Lana and Theron (mainly Lana) being so focused in the story. I liked the fact each class did have a specific story arc on Rishi so even though it wasn’t the whole story; it still was there for each specific class.

 

Ziost: It was okay but they needed to bring out some points for the non-force class. Now as a roleplayer I could do that myself, since they didn’t, and make it work for my non-force class but not everyone is a roleplayer and this might create difficulties for them. You would need to explain why the Emperor was interested in them, the agent I almost could understand, due to the story involved with the agent, but the bounty hunter, smugger and trooper not so much.

 

KOTFE-If on Ziost you were able to bring out why those I mentioned were important to the Emperor, then it would have made a little more sense why, especially the Smugger and Trooper were called to Darth Marr’s flagship. The agent and bounty hunter could work due to the fact they were Empire and Marr would have used every available option he had in the Empire. But the Smuggler and Trooper not so much, unless there was a good reason. While most of my characters did not kneel to the Emperor, the couple that did expected something different than what happened. You need to make the kneeling relevant, and I don’t mean possessing your body.

 

Or maybe the possessing your body would only work if you kneeled to him as that could almost be expected. Those that didn’t shouldn’t have been possessed since they had already refused to kneel. You kind of took away the choice when you allowed this to happen. This was my major problem here is I could understand him possessing the two characters that kneeled to him, but not the ones that refused. You kind of made that choice irrelevant. I know it was part of the story arc but maybe you should have had a separate arc for those that refused.

 

This would have made a little more sense, at least for me.

 

For the most part the story was good except that if you decided to romance Koth, he should have been more focus than Lana or Theron. You did a good job except for those few things I would have changed to make it more relevant to each class.

 

KOTET- This one if it was already established why the Emperor thought the non-force classes were important to him was good except the last Chapter. Yes you gave a peacemaker option but it still gave the impression you were the Empress. Maybe a little more leeway in that regard.

 

IOKATH- Only this is where I have a problem. My characters enjoyed being in the Alliance, especially some of my Sith characters and now we are back to having to choose which side. I would prefer a third option where I don’t really need to join the Republic or the Empire but keep my Alliance. I know eventually you will have to go back but we do have a few years before we have to do that. My agent in particular has no love for the empire (due to the agent’s story) and she is unsure about the Republic so having to choose a side to support isn’t really something she would do. She would yell at both sides and tell them she taking the weapon (or destroying it) herself.

 

 

All in all I did enjoy the story, (would have prefer separate class arc's but understood why not) I just think there were a few things that could have been brought out better to tie the story in better. Thanks for your time and thanks for the story. I did enjoy it and am slowly taking all 14 of my toons through it.

 

Happy 4th of July.

Edited July 3, 2017 by casirabit

[denavin]

Charles, Keith....

 

How are you going to address the 3 huge White Elephants you have introduced into SWToR. I am talking about

1) The Eternal Alliance

2) The Eternal Fleet

3) The Gravestone.

 

I call these White Elephants because...

 

1) The Eternal Alliance.... Is possibly the largest alliance comprised of people from The Empire, Republic and Zakul.

Though the Eternal Alliance between the Empire and the Republic would be easy to destroy, and that seed has already been planted, it just needs a little water to make it sprout.

 

2) The Eternal Fleet.... Though not invincible, it is none the less, still the largest most powerful most technology advanced fleet in the galaxy. It simply can not just disappear, there has to be a logical resolution to the fleet. By either disposal, destruction or a reasonable cause for the fleet to leave and not revert to its prime function and become hostile again. It can not be given back to Iocath nor given to Scorpio as that would most definitely turn very bad for everyone, again. It can not be cast into space with their collective memories wiped as that is how Valcorian found them, thus it would only be a matter of time before that happened again. Lastly we know that in 3000 years Iocath, The Gravestone and The Eternal Fleet do NOT exist or they would be an integral part of the story.

 

3) The Gravestone.... This is the largest of all the White Elephants you have introduced. It is without a doubt the most powerful ship in terms of firepower and defense in the Galaxy, without question. Remember, "The Gravestone is the ONLY ship that went up against the Eternal Fleet and Won" :Koth Vortaina.

 

So now you have these 3 entity's that have been introduced into the world of Star Wars. They MUST BE DEALT WITH and not simply swepped under the rug.

 

So my question is this.

 

Are you planing on doing anything with these 3 very large very imposing White Elephants. Or do you expect us to have mass amnesia and simply forget that they ever existed regardless that the Gravestone is docked at Odessen.

[MrEndymion]

So, I have to address this, because I think it's a relevant point in the story.... assuming that Valkorion/Vitiate takes a great interest in your character, saying that you are the only person worthy of his attention, in my opinion makes it seem like the only plausible class that could be the Outlander is the Jedi Knight, as he'd have defeated him twice by this point. In my opinion, Fallen Empire and Eternal Throne make the most sense when played as a Jedi Knight, as the Emperor is your enemy throughout the Knight's story, and I don't think his duty to stop Valkorion would end.

[Asmodesu]

SoR through to KotET is a story line I enjoyed a lot personally, but still see many things that I believe the writers did incorrectly or implemented poorly.

 

My main two disgruntlements over SoR-KotET.

 

 

During vanilla release we had class stories yes, but the class stories were not the major story of the galaxy, they were just a part of it, working alongside and influencing but without taking over it. The real main story line of the game was done though the planet arcs but even then there was far more happening then any one character could ever experience, and to me the class stories stood out on their own, while still influencing the main story. This includes the Operations, the flashpoints etc they were alltheir own little mini-story lines giving a broader info of what was happening in the galaxy overall.

 

By ilum and Makeb the dozen or so influence stories to the main story line disappeared, replaced by two separate faction stories that gave two perspectives of the major/real story line. Shadows of Revan was the inevitable merging of the two factions, but still retaining differences through dialogue, entire attitude changes from main npc's, and cutscenes. This in my opinion would have been the sweet spot to stop at. But KotFE and KotET took the merging of factions too far, this I believe is where many complaints about the one size fits all story really spark true. I believe if KotFE-KotET had been written more like SoR in those regards to faction/class through dialogue and how npc's treated the main character but still being one story line it may have gone over much better,as it stands characters that would not have wanted anything to do with ours treat them exactly the same as their closest friend (class character), this was glaring to me.

Where-as in Shadows of Revan the entire tone of Yavin 4 and the unsteady truce is incredibly different depending on the faction of the player character. If playing a republic character, Darth Marr is more difficult to engage with in the conversations, far less trusting/respectful, trying to control the entire matter and bracing against the Republic, but play Imperial side and you see none of that from Marr, instead he shows he does respect the player character, stepping back, is less argumentative, more open from the start to the truce, not wanting to show any friction between two major people of the Empire to the Republic etc. On top of this you do not get the full character interactions unless you play through both factions to spot the little differences. For example when Marr and Satele meet on Yavin 4 they tell an Imperial player character, who arrived after the meeting was done, what's going on and happening next, while a Republic character has to help getting to that part instead both ways the character is involved in the conversation revealing the mega-happenings, unlike in KotFE/KotET. The entire tone of each was so different that it made me want to play that expansion's story again as the other faction because of the variations, and even though I enjoyed KotFE/KotET I can certainly understand why many found the very little variance across classes and factions (almost non-existent to be honest) to be very disheartening because I obviously saw that too.

 

SoR was very much play a few different characters to experience it all type of writing, rather then being told what's going on, sometimes before the player's character even knows what's happening, which is also where common "The Valkorion family show" comments come in to play. It feels like instead of the character finding out about stuff through the main npc's and discussions, quests etc the writing team decided to tell the player far too much before it even happens for their character, and did so through the villain's cutscenes instead of chats directly to our characters involving them more in coming to the conclusions. I personally believe this was handled poorly and was one huge step away from our character's being proper part of the story.

 

 

 

tl:dr

- there was ONLY the one major storyline and nothing else once KotFE dropped. problem number 1.

- there was barely any variance in dialogue for class/faction origins. Also no variance for carrying on the personalities for classes that was established everywhere else (problem 2)

- the player did not find out stuff while playing (major events) instead we got told it by the Arcann and Vaylin cutscenes we shouldn't have known. problem number 3.

- companion returns in Iokath were handled very poorly and companion interactions after their return is non-existent unless they pop up with a death choice option. Bonus problem.

 

end result- one size fits all story with very little variation for classes and/or at least factions does not work for this game.

 

Yes even after all this I enjoyed SoR-KotET story immensely, I got all the entertainment I wanted, and after finishing KotET yet again I still get entertainment from it. just because I enjoyed it does not mean I do not see where a ton of improvements could be done. Also does not mean I don't want more entertainment and enjoyment, I enjoyed it A LOT but there are always flaws. Nothing is perfect.

 

 

I had no problems personally with Valkorion/Vitiate story and changes, none at all. I loved it actually but that's a personal viewpoint and opinion.

People who say "Revan says he was tempering the Emperor's anger for centuries" realise that Revan could have just been entirely deluded right? he's not entirely sane. Never take stuff characters say as fact, ever . If they're well written then they will not have all the facts, and may have such a scewed up view they're completely wrong, or just be plain manipulative and lying. That is well written characters. I'm not saying he was not retconned or switched up in any way, just adding my additional thoughts on a couple of comments I heard a lot since that post.

 

 

I enjoyed the different chapters doing some different stuff and having different tones.

 

Yes it was cutscene, fight some mobs, cutscene *repeat* but the way they went about it and that way changing each chapter I really enjoyed. Kaliyo chapter I disliked due to the mechanics, but they only did that style once (the alarms stuff was annoying as heck) but I really enjoyed the Marr/Satele chapter (mechanics, I'm not saying the story made tons of sense. well for my SW it was fine,my trooper and smuggler. not so much but that is on my no variations to the dialogue issue) where I got to explore the camp before it clicked to me for the first run who it all belonged to. Then explore to the items I needed to collect, I had a nice clear little goal.

I enjoyed the walkers and the mouse droid stuff, they were different, a little shake from the generic "fight mobs, walk a bit, fight mobs" by adding in "get in walker, blow them up" or "avoid and use some tech swtor has to get through instead (mouse droid)".

The tone differences for the chapters monthly released I enjoyed as well, going from military special ops toned chapter, to taking on a treasury ship with a couple of thieves. the tone overall, and interactions with whatever companion it was as guide, is great when it changes a bit.

 

I am going to miss the companions returning in chapters the most I believe, They were so much better then the disappointment we got with Quinn and Elara on Iokath. Knowing Iokath style is all that is being done now I am very disheartened and may very well lose my motivation to play for the first time in 5 years. Companions and story is the msot important part to me and they've admitted both is going to be done lacklustre from now on due to feedback.

 

Yes this account isn't that old, I had a day-pf-release one that was hacked two years ago but customer service required me to email my ID and stuff to get control of it back, I do not feel safe doing that so got them to lock it instead.

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by Asmodesu

[stoopicus]

So, I have to address this, because I think it's a relevant point in the story.... assuming that Valkorion/Vitiate takes a great interest in your character, saying that you are the only person worthy of his attention, in my opinion makes it seem like the only plausible class that could be the Outlander is the Jedi Knight, as he'd have defeated him twice by this point. In my opinion, Fallen Empire and Eternal Throne make the most sense when played as a Jedi Knight, as the Emperor is your enemy throughout the Knight's story, and I don't think his duty to stop Valkorion would end.

 

Warrior makes equal sense to JK, maybe even more sense due to their unique relationship to the Emperor - you are literally Vitiate's chosen enforcer. The Ziost story is also the most poignant as Warrior and really makes sense of the direction things go in KotFE.

 

Otherwise agree, it really makes little sense except for Warrior or JK (and *maybe* Inquisitor due to how that works in.)

Edited July 3, 2017 by stoopicus

[ZionHalcyon]

Warrior makes equal sense to JK, maybe even more sense due to their unique relationship to the Emperor - you are literally Vitiate's chosen enforcer. The Ziost story is also the most poignant as Warrior and really makes sense of the direction things go in KotFE.

 

Otherwise agree, it really makes little sense except for Warrior or JK (and *maybe* Inquisitor due to how that works in.)

 

Actually, inquisitor makes no sense in terms of its brief side story in SoR onto KOTFE - in SoR, your inquisitor finds out about an alien technology that can extend his/her life almost like the emperor, but no force ritual. And it appeared that it was something that only would work for the inquisitor specifically, as it needed to be someone "twice mutated" which happened both on Balmorra with the Colicoid serum and Belsavis, having your body remade.

 

That plot thus far seems completely dropped, which is a shame - it sets up the potential for the Inquisitor to be an actual legit Rival to Vitiate, but with a completely different method.

[stoopicus]

Actually, inquisitor makes no sense in terms of its brief side story in SoR onto KOTFE - in SoR, your inquisitor finds out about an alien technology that can extend his/her life almost like the emperor, but no force ritual. And it appeared that it was something that only would work for the inquisitor specifically, as it needed to be someone "twice mutated" which happened both on Balmorra with the Colicoid serum and Belsavis, having your body remade.

 

That plot thus far seems completely dropped, which is a shame - it sets up the potential for the Inquisitor to be an actual legit Rival to Vitiate, but with a completely different method.

 

Yeah, exactly, Inquisitor *almost* would work, but they dropped it. You put it better than I did.