A preferred player’s perspective on Population decline

[jpscjpsc]

As a subscriber who is going to remain a subscriber as long as there is any kind of subscriber tier, EA please take this statement to heart. I expect people to play with, and not seeing it is what is driving me away from the game.

 

This.

 

No matter how good the game is you can't enjoy it without a lot of other people.

[Hell_Kaiser_Fett]

I love all the responses about if you can't afford 15 a month. Clearly they can, hence the ability to reply to forums and the internet allowing them to do so. But if you're not interested in every aspect of the game is it worth it?

 

Also can we please stop with the Starbucks comparisons. We get it, no free coffee, but let's not compare over priced, subpar coffee to the beauty that is this game.

 

The main problem being the lack of players, not the lack of free "coffee" is what's driving people away. Here's a good example of what we mean:

 

Last night I spent a good while on my guild ship playing with the gtn to design a new character, and seeing people trying to put an Ops group together I thought I might give it a try again. GF wouldn't pop, and the group never got filled, no matter how long they posted looking for additional players.

 

This is the problem, for SUBS. Sure subs pay money for all content and the best QoL, but is your gameplay experience really any better when you can't play the content you want, even with your sub?

 

We don't want free coffee, just more people to drink it with.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Hell_Kaiser_Fett

[ZionHalcyon]

I love all the responses about if you can't afford 15 a month. Clearly they can, hence the ability to reply to forums and the internet allowing them to do so. But if you're not interested in every aspect of the game is it worth it?

 

Also can we please stop with the Starbucks comparisons. We get it, no free coffee, but let's not compare over priced, subpar coffee to the beauty that is this game.

 

The main problem being the lack of players, not the lack of free "coffee" is what's driving people away. Here's a good example of what we mean:

 

Last night I spent a good while on my guild ship playing with the gtn to design a new character, and seeing people trying to put an Ops group together I thought I might give it a try again. GF wouldn't pop, and the group never got filled, no matter how long they posted looking for additional players.

 

This is the problem, for SUBS. Sure subs pay money for all content and the best QoL, but is your gameplay experience really any better when you can't play the content you want, even with your sub?

 

We don't want free coffee, just more people to drink it with.

 

You don't know anyone's situation. I am posting on the forums but doing so having purchased a 60 day pass with some free cash I had at a given time.

 

With the way the US economy has been for the last 8 years and the way medical bills have been on the rise there are plenty of people who have a hard time justifying a reoccurring expense to a game they otherwise would love to play.

 

Your comments are very cliche for many a young player but you do not represent everyone and more people playing is better than fewer but subscribers.

 

Frankly I think SWTOR should move to a model similar to DDO where people can make one time payments to own certain types of content. In DDO those payments would go towards owning certain areas that have their version of operations.

 

Think how there is a section X authorization pass. If you charge per operation for one-time ownership that should bring some more preferred players into the play style and get more people involved.

[Hell_Kaiser_Fett]

You don't know anyone's situation. I am posting on the forums but doing so having purchased a 60 day pass with some free cash I had at a given time.

 

With the way the US economy has been for the last 8 years and the way medical bills have been on the rise there are plenty of people who have a hard time justifying a reoccurring expense to a game they otherwise would love to play.

 

Your comments are very cliche for many a young player but you do not represent everyone and more people playing is better than fewer but subscribers.

 

Frankly I think SWTOR should move to a model similar to DDO where people can make one time payments to own certain types of content. In DDO those payments would go towards owning certain areas that have their version of operations.

 

Think how there is a section X authorization pass. If you charge per operation for one-time ownership that should bring some more preferred players into the play style and get more people involved.

 

I'm not assuming anything, only stating that for someone who is only interested in PvP or raids, they may not feel it's worth paying, whether they can afford it or not, with a significantly reduced player base.

 

I also never declared to represent everyone, but sub or not no one here that cares about endgame content can say that they don't want more players in the game to speed up queue times? Side note, assuming anyone's age is ignorant and also irrelevant to the topic.

 

You act as though what I've said goes against your points, when I've already said that I believed tokens for endgame or one time purchases for content similar to how they handle expansions would be a step in the right direction to bring back players.

[CrazyCT]

I'm not assuming anything, only stating that for someone who is only interested in PvP or raids, they may not feel it's worth paying, whether they can afford it or not, with a significantly reduced player base.

 

I also never declared to represent everyone, but sub or not no one here that cares about endgame content can say that they don't want more players in the game to speed up queue times? Side note, assuming anyone's age is ignorant and also irrelevant to the topic.

 

You act as though what I've said goes against your points, when I've already said that I believed tokens for endgame or one time purchases for content similar to how they handle expansions would be a step in the right direction to bring back players.

 

It would certainly bring in more players to the end game, but would also be the end of the game, if you can get the same access as a preferred player. Why would anyone continue to subscribe if there is no real extra benefit? What incentive can you give a player for continuing to fund this game, when they could just stop paying but still get full access to everything?

 

And if all the people stop subbing, the only revenue will be from the Cartel Market, meaning any and all future development will be directed there, so although you probably would have a short burst of players in the end game, that will rapidly tail off again if there is no new content for them. Especially since the players who don't think it's worth paying for a sub are probably the kind of players who have no commitment to the game, and will just go hunting for the next F2P game as soon as they get bored.

[Andryah]

The thread has kind of run it's course and is beginning to fall into the ever popular circular spin from the recurring points of view.

 

So let me just leave you with this.... be careful what you wish for.

 

The studio works to an economic model, like all for profit business, where they adjust a blend of product or service offerings that they feel will maximize both the financial goals of the company as well as maximizing business long term with customers (which is a losing battle with MMOs.. but that is their challenge none the less). As such... if they do offer more "buy-ins" for content for non subscribers.... it will be done like they always do it... the non sub quickly finds they are approaching a monthly sub rate of spend buying a-la-carte and hence will not see the benefit they desire (which for most is clearly more for less).

 

I support an a-la-carte approach to content walled off from Preferred, but I have no illusions that it will end up being less expensive in the long run to play if you play on a regular and consistent basis. It will help transients, who only drop in from time to time to play and only want to play one or two very specific segments of content... but these are not players that a studio will feel a strong incentive to feed and please with an a-la-carte approach.

 

I support NOTHING for the true F2P as they have never given a dime to the game.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Andryah

[Kurj]

I think folks are jumping to conclusions about game population trends, because this is summer. There is always a population decline in summer. Is this seasonal decline greater than previous declines? Impossible for us to know, since they don't release data. IMO, this has more to do with our group content drought than anything else. People will pay $$ to access new content. No new content, no motivation to pay.

[Hell_Kaiser_Fett]

I never meant they should get equal access, and definitely wasn't implying free. It should cost, but on a constant basis, such as how subbing for 15 got you an expansion, but to buy RotHC unsubbed was 20

 

I don't think players should be blocked from endgame, just given an alternative way to pay for it to continue support and development of the game. We all just want to have fun, and right now endgame is anything but fun.

[Hell_Kaiser_Fett]

IMO, this has more to do with our group content drought than anything else. People will pay $$ to access new content. No new content, no motivation to pay.

 

Definitely agree. I miss the days of constant raiding being available.

[ivanhedgehog]

I love all the responses about if you can't afford 15 a month. Clearly they can, hence the ability to reply to forums and the internet allowing them to do so. But if you're not interested in every aspect of the game is it worth it?

 

Also can we please stop with the Starbucks comparisons. We get it, no free coffee, but let's not compare over priced, subpar coffee to the beauty that is this game.

 

The main problem being the lack of players, not the lack of free "coffee" is what's driving people away. Here's a good example of what we mean:

 

Last night I spent a good while on my guild ship playing with the gtn to design a new character, and seeing people trying to put an Ops group together I thought I might give it a try again. GF wouldn't pop, and the group never got filled, no matter how long they posted looking for additional players.

 

This is the problem, for SUBS. Sure subs pay money for all content and the best QoL, but is your gameplay experience really any better when you can't play the content you want, even with your sub?

 

We don't want free coffee, just more people to drink it with.

 

Many people dont pug because of the number of pug players that dont know the fights and arent interested in listening to someone that does. "dont tell me how to play". Or the one we saw a few weeks ago with the guy telling us not to rez him, he was eating....during the bestia fight. the price of repairs being what it is, I dont need to dump all that cash because some pigheaded pug cant follow instructions.

 

As for the price comparisons, TANSTAAFL

Ther aint no such thing as a free lunch. Everything costs someone something, The game must have income to survive. Large crowds on the servers are useless if no one pays to keep on the lights.

[HuaRya]

I think folks are jumping to conclusions about game population trends, because this is summer. There is always a population decline in summer.

 

Then why is FF and ESO overflowing with people? FF actually has a wait time queue and their servers are segmented around the globe like SWTOR.

[ZionHalcyon]

It would certainly bring in more players to the end game, but would also be the end of the game, if you can get the same access as a preferred player. Why would anyone continue to subscribe if there is no real extra benefit? What incentive can you give a player for continuing to fund this game, when they could just stop paying but still get full access to everything?

 

And if all the people stop subbing, the only revenue will be from the Cartel Market, meaning any and all future development will be directed there, so although you probably would have a short burst of players in the end game, that will rapidly tail off again if there is no new content for them. Especially since the players who don't think it's worth paying for a sub are probably the kind of players who have no commitment to the game, and will just go hunting for the next F2P game as soon as they get bored.

 

That sentiment while shared by some subscriber type players is not true when held under scrutiny.

 

When you factor in the cartel coin cost a player would need to purchase a particular raid or area, you are not changing the payment model at all nor would it be the death of the game. Instead, rather than a recurring charge, the developers would get paid for this content upfront through a transactions for cartel coins.

 

Subscribers would not quit because they would have free access to everything a non-subscriber would have to pay cartel coins to own, and they still get that 500 cartel coin a month stipend.

 

This issue is hardly as black-and-white as you make it.

[Ratajack]

That sentiment while shared by some subscriber type players is not true when held under scrutiny.

 

When you factor in the cartel coin cost a player would need to purchase a particular raid or area, you are not changing the payment model at all nor would it be the death of the game. Instead, rather than a recurring charge, the developers would get paid for this content upfront through a transactions for cartel coins.

 

Subscribers would not quit because they would have free access to everything a non-subscriber would have to pay cartel coins to own, and they still get that 500 cartel coin a month stipend.

 

This issue is hardly as black-and-white as you make it.

 

No subscribers would quit? Really? Keep telling yourself that.

 

Let's look at this logically.

 

How much would you charge for a ONE TIME payment to have continued, infinite access to OPS? FP's? PVP? GC? <inert game content here>?

 

Let's say $20. For a ONE TIME payment of CC's (of which Johnny receives THOUSANDS every month for FREE, BTW), Johnny can have the same full access he now enjoys as a subscriber, but not have to pay another dime. Those 500 CC he would get for being a subscriber are peanuts compared to what he will still receive as preferred.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Ratajack

[Icykill_]

That sentiment while shared by some subscriber type players is not true when held under scrutiny.

 

When you factor in the cartel coin cost a player would need to purchase a particular raid or area, you are not changing the payment model at all nor would it be the death of the game. Instead, rather than a recurring charge, the developers would get paid for this content upfront through a transactions for cartel coins.

 

Subscribers would not quit because they would have free access to everything a non-subscriber would have to pay cartel coins to own, and they still get that 500 cartel coin a month stipend.

 

This issue is hardly as black-and-white as you make it.

 

Pretty sure a lot of subs would leave... I know I would

[DanNV]

I think folks are jumping to conclusions about game population trends, because this is summer. There is always a population decline in summer. Is this seasonal decline greater than previous declines? Impossible for us to know, since they don't release data. IMO, this has more to do with our group content drought than anything else. People will pay $$ to access new content. No new content, no motivation to pay.

 

People said the same thing at Christmas. They claimed there is always a decline at the Holidays. However, that decline not only has continued but gotten worse. And it's not just group content that is the issue. It's GC. It's asking for feedback and then ignoring it. It's making design decisions that repeat mistakes from launch. It's nerfing classes breaking PVE just to make PVP happy, It's ignoring PVP for ages at a time. It's nerfing the popular classes to force people to grind another character through GC and the content they've been playing for years to get another character geared. It's years of telling players that BW knows what players want more than the players do. Add all of that up and players are fed up and leaving the game. When Shadowlands has 40 or 50 people on fleet prime time, when harbinger has 130 people on fleet prime time, when every server is mostly "light" you know there aren't many people left playing.

 

All BW did by pushing Preferred and F2P out of the end game content was speed p the process. F2P is all that kept the game going after it failed just after launch. Now BW has closed F2P out of any endgame content so those people have left. It's harder to get pugs to fill out groups, it's harder to get GF groups going at all. The game looks dead. When a game looks dead, it is never good for the game or the players still playing. BW has made major mistakes over the last few years, and they show little sign of actually correcting them.

[Severith]

Multiply these 15 dollars per book in the library. Where do libraries get the money to subscribe to scientific magazines from, by the way ?

I'm rather referring to university libraries,m by the way, because public ones usuually get their money from the state here ( I have no idea how it is in other countries ).

 

I've been reading through university libraries, and you seem to have no idea how much EXPENSIVE scientific books can be !

 

Libraries don't exist to make money.

 

MMO's exist to make money.

 

Apples and Oranges.

 

15 dollars is almost nothing, it's a large meal at a fast food restaurant. You tried to make some comment about a stratified societal privilege regarding the price of SWTOR subscriptions. It's nothing of the sort.

[Kurj]

People said the same thing at Christmas. They claimed there is always a decline at the Holidays. However, that decline not only has continued but gotten worse. And it's not just group content that is the issue. It's GC. It's asking for feedback and then ignoring it. It's making design decisions that repeat mistakes from launch. It's nerfing classes breaking PVE just to make PVP happy, It's ignoring PVP for ages at a time. It's nerfing the popular classes to force people to grind another character through GC and the content they've been playing for years to get another character geared. It's years of telling players that BW knows what players want more than the players do. Add all of that up and players are fed up and leaving the game. When Shadowlands has 40 or 50 people on fleet prime time, when harbinger has 130 people on fleet prime time, when every server is mostly "light" you know there aren't many people left playing.

 

All BW did by pushing Preferred and F2P out of the end game content was speed p the process. F2P is all that kept the game going after it failed just after launch. Now BW has closed F2P out of any endgame content so those people have left. It's harder to get pugs to fill out groups, it's harder to get GF groups going at all. The game looks dead. When a game looks dead, it is never good for the game or the players still playing. BW has made major mistakes over the last few years, and they show little sign of actually correcting them.

 

I hear what you are saying, but I haven't noticed that in PVP. I'm on one of the lighter servers, and regs pop consistently between 7pm and 11pm PDT, and have been doing so since 5.0 released. I do agree that we are seeing a population decline overall, but (and this is just IMO), it has more to do with the very short-sighted decision to focus on story to the exclusion of everything else for 2 years. The rest of the complaints that people have are valid, but I think they would become far less significant if there had not been a content drought. When there is new stuff to do, people forget to b**ch about the problems because they're too busy playing the game.

[Ratajack]

I hear what you are saying, but I haven't noticed that in PVP. I'm on one of the lighter servers, and regs pop consistently between 7pm and 11pm PDT, and have been doing so since 5.0 released. I do agree that we are seeing a population decline overall, but (and this is just IMO), it has more to do with the very short-sighted decision to focus on story to the exclusion of everything else for 2 years. The rest of the complaints that people have are valid, but I think they would become far less significant if there had not been a content drought. When there is new stuff to do, people forget to b**ch about the problems because they're too busy playing the game.

 

Many people in the various "merge servers NOW!!!!" threads have indicated that they get regular PVP pops, and even PVE pops. Others have indicated that they have no problem doing any group content, but they prefer not to use the LFG tool, and do that group content with friends and guild mates. They know those friends and guild mates and what they can expect from those people.

 

I wonder how many of those who complain about PVE LFG queue times either have a totally unrealistic opinion of what a "reasonable" time is or have found themselves on too many ignore lists and the LFG tool cannot find anyone with which to group them.

[Andryah]

Pretty sure a lot of subs would leave... I know I would

 

Yeah... IF they give Preferred more head-room, and do not add new content that gives even more headroom for subs, I very much believe some players will leave in protest. It would be a risky move for the studio just to please some players who refuse to sub on a regular basis. And it's not like a player cannot turn their sub off and on as they please to get full access.

 

There is always a tension between subs and non-subs in an MMO that works on a flexible access model, which is to be expected. But if the studio decides to make things richer for non-subs... it undercuts their paying subscribers unless subs get more love then Preferred do in the process.

 

But this entire thread is largely a waste of electrons as it's pretty clear the studio HAS BEEN tuning their access model such that Preferred do not benefit as much as subs, and honestly.. that is the way it should be in my view.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Andryah

[Eshvara]

Yeah... IF they give Preferred more head-room, and do not add new content that gives even more headroom for subs, I very much believe some players will leave in protest. It would be a risky move for the studio just to please some players who refuse to sub on a regular basis. And it's not like a player cannot turn their sub off and on as they please to get full access.

 

There is always a tension between subs and non-subs in an MMO that works on a flexible access model, which is to be expected. But if the studio decides to make things richer for non-subs... it undercuts their paying subscribers unless subs get more love then Preferred do in the process.

 

But this entire thread is largely a waste of electrons as it's pretty clear the studio HAS BEEN tuning their access model such that Preferred do not benefit as much as subs, and honestly.. that is the way it should be in my view.

 

So are you against preferred players having more benefits than they already have, but not as much as subs?

Edited July 8, 2017 by Eshvara

[Ratajack]

So are you against preferred players having more benefits than they already have, but not as much as subs?

 

I am against giving preferred players more than they already have.

 

Having said that, though, for the sake of discussion, what "extra benefits" would you give preferred players (who are not likely supporting the game financially) that would not devalue the subscription?

 

What "extra benefits" would you give subscribers to add value to their subscriptions (financial support) of the game if BW were to give the preferred players "more benefits" than they already have?

[Eshvara]

I am against giving preferred players more than they already have.

 

Having said that, though, for the sake of discussion, what "extra benefits" would you give preferred players (who are not likely supporting the game financially) that would not devalue the subscription?

 

What "extra benefits" would you give subscribers to add value to their subscriptions (financial support) of the game if BW were to give the preferred players "more benefits" than they already have?

 

Would having more people to do your content with, not help you out as a subscriber?

 

For PvP, people can queue for as much as they want, with no rewards, no cxp, no money, no Valor and whatever else it grants. Daily quests aren't available, they can just play. You can apply the same for GSF or ops.

 

It's what I thought would originally happen when Command rank came out as it was subscriber only.

If you have a subscriber friend or just ask in general chat, they can already queue you without you having to sub anyway, would it be so bad to do the same but without any real benefits except being to able to play?

 

Ranked could remain unavailable for preferred.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Eshvara

[Ratajack]

Would having more people to do your content with, not help you out as a subscriber?

 

No. Extra freeloaders does nothing to help me out, personally.

 

I am one of those who has no problem doing any group content i wish to do, but I do the vast majority of that group content with friends and guild mates.

 

I do not even think about using the LFG tool on the cesspool that is Harbinger. I do occasionally use the LFG tool on other servers, and I have never had a problem getting pops in a reasonable time or being grouped with people exhibiting "less than desirable behavior" on those servers.

 

For PvP, people can queue for as much as they want, with no rewards, no cxp, no money, no Valor and whatever else it grants. Daily quests aren't available, they can just play. You can apply the same for GSF or ops.

 

It's what I thought would originally happen when Command rank came out as it was subscriber only.

If you have a subscriber friend or just ask in general chat, they can already queue you without you having to sub anyway, would it be so bad to do the same but without any real benefits except being to able to play?

 

Ranked could remain unavailable for preferred.

 

Are you advocating that preferred (players who are likely not even supporting the game financially) get more for FREE without giving subscribers more to add value to their financial support for the game?

[Eshvara]

No. Extra freeloaders does nothing to help me out, personally.

 

I am one of those who has no problem doing any group content i wish to do, but I do the vast majority of that group content with friends and guild mates.

 

I do not even think about using the LFG tool on the cesspool that is Harbinger. I do occasionally use the LFG tool on other servers, and I have never had a problem getting pops in a reasonable time or being grouped with people exhibiting "less than desirable behavior" on those servers.

 

 

 

Are you advocating that preferred (players who are likely not even supporting the game financially) get more for FREE without giving subscribers more to add value to their financial support for the game?

 

You say that yet people are screaming for merges left and right, something must not add up to servers being "healthy". If having preferred players being able to play content without rewards, how is that a disservice to subs exactly?

 

I am all for giving preferred players more for free, but not as much as subscribers. I don't see the harm in that if it's kept within reason.

And for what it's worth, this game did get voted worst business model of the year, last year. Clearly the subscribers aren't that happy either.

I hold no grudge to those who don't want to or cannot continue subbing, but they are traffic and we could use more people to play with.

 

I really don't see how allowing them to play but excluding them from any rewards is such a huge benefit.

 

What does bug me a lot is that people who pre ordered the game and payed months of sub are on the same scale as someone who spend 5$ to get preferred status. It's quite the joke.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Eshvara

[Ratajack]

You say that yet people are screaming for merges left and right, something must not add up to servers being "healthy". If having preferred players being able to play content without rewards, how is that a disservice to subs exactly?

 

I am all for giving preferred players more for free, but not as much as subscribers. I don't see the harm in that if it's kept within reason.

And for what it's worth, this game did get voted worst business model of the year, last year. Clearly the subscribers aren't that happy either.

I hold no grudge to those who don't want to or cannot continue subbing, but they are traffic and we could use more people to play with.

 

I really don't see how allowing them to play but excluding them from any rewards is such a huge benefit.

 

What does bug me a lot is that people who pre ordered the game and payed months of sub are on the same scale as someone who spend 5$ to get preferred status. It's quite the joke.

 

I think BW set the limits for F2P and preferred at a very reasonable point. Those who choose not to subscribe, for whatever reason, get more then enough for FREE, IMO. As noted previously, it matters not how much they may have paid in the past, the fact remains that, in all likelihood, they are NOT paying into the game NOW.

 

I don't think the numbers of people participating in PVP, OPS, FP's etc. with no possibility of reward would be all that high. I'd bet that most would either complain that they get no rewards, not even lesser rewards, or they would just say "Why bother doing X? There is no reward, so there's no point."

 

As to your point regarding those who paid a mere $5 being on the same level as those that subscribed for months, that is another matter entirely.

 

If BW were to add "levels" of preferred status, how many levels would you advocate and where would you set those levels in terms of months subscribed or money spent? What benefits would you assign to each of those levels, keeping in mind that for every "additional benefit" you give someone who is NOT paying NOW, you have to add something of equal value to those subscribers who ARE paying now? What "additional benefits" would you give to those subscribers who ARE paying now, to add value to those subscriptions and compensate for the value lost by giving more to those that are NOT paying NOW?