Class changes for 5.3

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

It would have to last at least twice as long as it does now for that to work, it would end up buffing the class mostly in survivability @ PvP.

 

I wouldn't complain. However there would be much more skill attached to deciding when to use a weakened Maul to keep DE rolling, than there is to getting behind a targets back.

 

I kinda think there are two ways to look at the issue, and I'm not saying one should necessarily be more valid than the other.

 

There is the purely game mechanics side that makes it that the positional requirement effects the ease of it's use, and than there is the very nature of the class side of it, which makes a stab in the back very much in keeping with an Assassin's modus operandi.

 

Assassin's aren't hired to fight people, they're hired to murder people and you have a much better chance of killing someone and not getting killed yourself by stabbing someone in the back.

 

Yeah that postional requirement may not be ideal for a purely mechanical standpoint, but I would think it makes great deal of sense from the perspective of what the class is all about.

 

Ninja didn't go around calling out people to duel them, they used stealth to get as close to their victim as they could without being noticed so that they wouldn't have to fight them and they'd have a better chance at fufilling their assignment. They only used a sword when they got caught, if they were able to close enough to the victim from behind, they didn't use any blade at all, they used a Garotte to strangle their opponent to death, because that makes a lot less noise than hacking away at people who could yell, scream. and make lots of noise to attract attention. If the Ninja could kill with the garotte there's a much chance that no one else around would become aware of their presence which would give them a better chance of getting out of that area without a fight. Could they fight if they had to? Of course, but they weren't as skilled at fighting as they were in sneaking and murdering from behind.

 

A ninja wasn't insulted by the notion that Samurai were better warriors in a straight up fight than they were, because that's not what they were about. If a ninja got caught by a samurai, they had their swords with them just in case that happened, but the Samurai had better Armor, so there's a give and take on both sides.

 

I wouldn't think players of Assassins in most cases would want a watering down of the class to make it like just another melee. Part of what makes Assassins special is that they are not just another melee type [like a jugg or a PT for example], Assassins seem to me to walk that line between say a Marauder and a Sorc. They are equal parts melee and force user, which gives them the benefit of more attacks that exceed normal melee range, but less overall purely melee attacks.

 

I totally understand that it would be better to lose the positional requirement from a purely mechanics point of view, but by the same token it would be better from a purely mechanics point of view if we could hit people with our melee attacks at 10' instead of 4' heh, but it loses something in the translation. Melee attacks shouldn't be able to hit people that far away. Respectfully, I don't see the positional requirement for maul as being an unreasonable aspect of an attack for a class that specializes at subterfuge and gaining advantages of their opponents by suprise. They 'sucker punch' people all the time. The stun people and attack them while they are stunned by CC that don't break on attack so the player so cced can't do anything about it every time it happens. After all it's much safer to attack someone who you know can't attack you back.

 

Is it an honorable or 'brave' way to go at someone? No, of course, but they're not warriors and they don't care about those kinds of things. They're not there to fight you, they're there to kill you.

 

From a mechanics point of veiw, how damage is inflicted is in some ways irrelevant. If you take 20k damage from Ravage in a face to face open fight, or you take 20k from a stab in the back while you CCed, it's still just taking 20k damage. The manner in which that damage is inflicted, that's more about style than anything else. Me and you may do damage via a saber, Mercs with their blasters, and an Operative may do it with a knife. Yet, there are reasons we choose a saber over a blaster pistol, even if in the end, the DPS is pretty much the same, and largely those reasons are about style.

 

I don't play an Assassin because I dont like the dishonorable sneaky type style [but nor do I look down on anyone for liking that style of play, it's a video game afterall]. I like a more traditonal fighter type, and there is no wrong or right "style" or likes. I don't play ranged DPS because I see it in a similar light, not a very 'brave' or 'honorable' way to 'fight' someone with a sword. When a sniper shoots at a melee whos 30' away, that melee can't hit him back from where he is. That's not beating someone in a fight, that's shooting someone from 5 blocks away. But, at the same time, while that might not be my ideal in style, to other's it is, and God bless, no accounting for taste.

 

I guess my point is, there is so much diluting of classes, DPS with crazy heals, Tanks who can do as much if not more DPS than other true DPS specs, ranged DPS that can tank better than PT tank spec. Do we really want to start removing things that are simply inconvient but utlimaltelyy make a great deal of sense? A stab in the back requirement really does make sense for an Assassin even if it's not ideal. Just like it would be more ideal for me as a Marauder to have some self heals, not having them is a liability, especially when you're the only class that doesn't have them. As helpful and beneficial at the would be, I do not think Marauder should have them, it's just not in keeping with a class that is so centered around pure and unadulterated destruction heh so how could it be justified? What kind of Marauder heals people?? [:::narrows eyes at them damn Anni users:::: =p], I also don't agree that Marauders have any business having an ability that turns them invisible for 4 seconds. That's the purview of a stealth class [ i know it's much limited than real stealth that stealth classes have of course], but, it simply doesn't make sense, its good, it's an escape, but it's not really in keeping with their style.

 

Maybe I'm just a purest, I dunno. But there should be advantages and liabilities that come with every class and spec. - I don't think that positional requirement is unreasonable for an Assassin, but, at the same time, I don't behove you the right to try and make your class stronger. What idiot would want a liability if given the choice? heh

If you can get rid of it, more power to you!

Edited June 11, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Toraak]

Personally I get why the have the positioning for maul, however it's just a Roleplaying aspect, that at this point seriously needs to take a back seat to mechanics at this point. If I understand it correctly, and it may have been fixed is the only other class that has any positioning requirement other then assassins for maul is the Operative for backstab. May as get rid of the requirement at this point.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Personally I get why the have the positioning for maul, however it's just a Roleplaying aspect, that at this point seriously needs to take a back seat to mechanics at this point. If I understand it correctly, and it may have been fixed is the only other class that has any positioning requirement other then assassins for maul is the Operative for backstab. May as get rid of the requirement at this point.

 

Yeah, I mean if they were going to get rid of it for Assassins, they'd have to do it for any class that had a positional requirement, that would be only fair I'd think.

[Evolixe]

So you basically transcripted a seminair in order to tell us you don't think our core force regen ability should be usable from the front?

Because that is really the main reason I, and basically everyone else is asking to be able to Maul from the front.

 

You already said you don't play an Assassin.

And you basically havn't the slightest idea about the impact of being unable to Maul.

 

Let me give you an example you can relate to;

 

Imagne being unable to generate Fury, whatsoever, for any period of time.

And you talk about class fantasy and theme?

 

I would kindly like to ask you to leave these boards.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Evolixe

[FerkWork]

Personally I get why the have the positioning for maul, however it's just a Roleplaying aspect, that at this point seriously needs to take a back seat to mechanics at this point. If I understand it correctly, and it may have been fixed is the only other class that has any positioning requirement other then assassins for maul is the Operative for backstab. May as get rid of the requirement at this point.

 

This in a nutshell. I don't see the point of having positional requirements for them outside of RP fantasy. It's just an annoyance at this point especially with the stupid levels of Desync.

[Hombad]

So you basically transcripted a seminair in order to tell us you don't think our core force regen ability should be usable from the front?

Because that is really the main reason I, and basically everyone else is asking to be able to Maul from the front.

 

You already said you don't play an Assassin.

And you basically havn't the slightest idea about the impact of being unable to Maul.

 

Let me give you an example you can relate to;

 

Imagne being unable to generate Fury, whatsoever, for any period of time.

And you talk about class fantasy and theme?

 

I would kindly like to ask you to leave these boards.

 

He's entitled to his opinion, and entitled to discuss it here in the forums. Don't alienate engaged players in our already-small community please. He was perfectly considerate and open, I think that responses to him could at least be civil.

[kronovas]

The changes proposed to Hated Sin are a need. I wouldn't go so far and say that the class would be OP compared to its ranged counterparts with this update. If anything it would close the gap by a tiny margin. I'd say it would go from 9.6k DPS done on a dummy to 9.8k...Changing the positioning on maul won't matter much if you move around. We also have a problem managing power to keep skills popping versus other classes that aren't so power hungry. We just gotta wait and see what happens and keep providing feedback in the hope of a better future for both PvE and PvP.

[Evolixe]

He's entitled to his opinion, and entitled to discuss it here in the forums. Don't alienate engaged players in our already-small community please. He was perfectly considerate and open, I think that responses to him could at least be civil.

 

I think I'm pretty civil. I'm also straight to the point honest.

[kronovas]

I think I'm pretty civil. I'm also straight to the point honest.

Indeed. We all want one of our favorite specs to raise from the ashses! We all have different tones in which we express ourselves. I wouldn't mind having maul no longer require a position but if that turns into a huge NERF later down the road because people can't live with this Spec doing decent damage then I rather get a solid 10% increase in damage.

[Hombad]

So you basically transcripted a seminair in order to tell us you don't think our core force regen ability should be usable from the front?

 

...you basically havn't the slightest idea about the impact of being unable to Maul.

 

And you talk about class fantasy and theme?

 

I would kindly like to ask you to leave these boards.

 

Ad hominem (attacks on the arguer, not the argument) are not civil, they're logical fallacies and you reduce the quality of your (strong) argument with your manner. You'd be better off actually treating his arguments in their best light and then rebuffing them than simply and rudely dismissing them, it's beneath a player of your calibre.

 

Use of "kindly" doesn't mitigate your passive aggressiveness or exclusionary elitism friend.

[Torvai]

I guess my point is

 

That you don't have a point?

 

First of all: Deception is the only spec in the game by now that has a positional requirement. Hatred doesn't use Maul, Darkness has a proc to use it face to face, Concealment gets a proc to be able to use Backstab face to face and Lethality gets a replacement ability that simply doesn't have this requirement. And Medicine.. yeah I guess you could count that, but seriously, it's a heal spec. By your very own logic of "Warriors should do more damage than assassins because they are called warriors", healers shouldn't do damage at all because they are healers.

Which brings me to the next point:

I don't play an Assassin because I dont like the dishonorable sneaky type style [but nor do I look down on anyone for liking that style of play, it's a video game afterall]. I like a more traditonal fighter type, and there is no wrong or right "style" or likes.

You play a Marauder if I'm not mistaken? By the very definition of marauders, they shouldn't do much damage either. Nor should you play them by your very own argument quoted above

Marauder: A person engaged in banditry or related activity

In short: Dishonorable and definately not a "traditional fighter" type.

The next part is: No one in history dual wielded two swords in an actual fight. Yeah, some gladiotors in ancient rome, but that was for show(at least for the audience). So using two swords is both impractical and also not traditional.

A few class improvements based on your logic: Orbital onehits everything. Snipers can onehit anything(headshots, right?) Heatzseeker to the face? Yep, you're dead. Also Mercs and PT's should be able to fly, they have a jetpack after all. I could go on:rolleyes:

 

See, two can play that game. So please stop nitpicking words to defend your class in a class discussion about another class. Either use real arguments or don't participate in the discussion at all.

 

Ad hominem (attacks on the arguer, not the argument) are not civil, they're logical fallacies and you reduce the quality of your (strong) argument with your manner. You'd be better off actually treating his arguments in their best light and then rebuffing them than simply and rudely dismissing them, it's beneath a player of your calibre.

 

Use of "kindly" doesn't mitigate your passive aggressiveness or exclusionary elitism friend.

What argument?

That Sins shouldn't do more damage than Marauders because they are called Assassin, not Warrior? That's not an argument.

That maul should keep the positional requirement because it's the theme of Sins to backstab? Tell that to Hatred. And also, opers have the same theme and they also don't have the requirement anymore. So it's not an argument as well. What remains of his WoT is alot of babbling about ninjas, snipers and what not that doesn't add anything to the discussion rather than "I'm here to make sure sins don't get stronger than maras".

 

Which is a moot point anyway. In most raid teams you want to have only one melee dps. Which will always be mara simply because of predation and bloodthirst. In order to have another melee class considered above a mara that melee would have to either bring a similar utility, which no class does, or do that much more dps than a marauder and his bloodthirst bring to the table, which won't happen. So his whole posts about the topic aren't needed anyway.

 

Edit: The logic of "Warriors should do better damage because they are Warriors": Not only is it stupid to use this logic on something that should be balanced for gameplay reasons, it is flawed from the beginning. Because the fact that someone is a warrior, assassin, monk, priest, plumber, chemist, doctor or whatever, doesn't, in any way, indicate their skill at anything. It's their line of work, if you will.

The fact that someone is a soldier doesn't automatically make him a better shot than the next guy at the local shooting range. It also doesn't mean that he is a better tactician than the world chess champion. It means he is a soldier. Simple as that.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Torvai

[Hombad]

In most raid teams you want to have only one melee dps. Which will always be mara simply because of predation and bloodthirst. In order to have another melee class considered above a mara that melee would have to either bring a similar utility, which no class does, or do that much more dps than a marauder and his bloodthirst bring to the table, which won't happen. So his whole posts about the topic aren't needed anyway.

 

What universe do you live in where only 1 melee is ever run?

 

Almost every serious raid team I know runs 2 melee, e.g. It's Lit, Failure Teams, LOS, etc.

 

And some classes are better than mara melee wise depending on fight. E.g. pt for brontes nim, a KBer for styrak NiM, jug for most of df nim etc.

[Torvai]

What universe do you live in where only 1 melee is ever run?

 

Almost every serious raid team I know runs 2 melee, e.g. It's Lit, Failure Teams, LOS, etc.

 

And some classes are better than mara melee wise depending on fight. E.g. pt for brontes nim, a KBer for styrak NiM, jug for most of df nim etc.

 

The fact that most raid groups do it doesn't mean it's the best possible setup. After all you still take the player, not the class. And players have personal preferences as to what they like to play.

And I didn't say it is done, but that you want to have only 1 mdps.

 

But imagine the following: You have a group of 8 people that can play any class to it's maximum and don't have a personal preference as to what they play, so it's up to you to decide. What would your setup look like? Under the premise that everyone only plays one class after you have decided(because reasons ).

Mine would be 2 Sin Tanks(a case can be made for a jugg or PT for all 3 tank debuffs and higher tank damage), Sorc and Op heals, a Mara, a Merc, 2 Snipers.

 

Back to reality: I sure as hell would take beastfury or anyone of noticable skill on any character over a terribad mara, yes. But that's not because a mara wouldn't be better for my raid group. I hope you get my point now

Edited June 13, 2017 by Torvai

[kronovas]

I checked maul again... it seems people are confusing the passive effect Deception has with it. Deception Sin's maul reduces armor by 20%, however, Hatred Sin's maul does nothing more than a basic hit. If it had the effect everyone would use it.

 

Furthermore, melee classes are amazing if the 'player' knows what he / she is doing. Melee players cannot stand still and absorb all incoming damage. I would say that with all of the updates to make classes mobile that was taken care of. Sure Sins lost a great skill and it was made exclusive to Sorcs... Learn the mechanics. Hatred does need a DPS boost no matter what many people claim. I have noticed over years that players that lack skill and knowledge about the class they picked will slap the OP label when they cannot beat a certain class by spamming keys.

Edited June 19, 2017 by kronovas

[DarkSaberMaster]

Would love to have Phase Walk back. It was a kick in the nuts to take it from us and give it to Sorcs, who already had everything going for them. I want my Force Lightning back too. And I would like for Maul to not have positional requirements.

 

Give me this and I'm happy.

[Evolixe]

Would love to have Phase Walk back. It was a kick in the nuts to take it from us and give it to Sorcs, who already had everything going for them. I want my Force Lightning back too. And I would like for Maul to not have positional requirements.

 

Give me this and I'm happy.

 

Apart from PW both minimal impact things but I very much agree.

These little niches are what makes the class all the more interesting.

 

Taking it away purely for the sake of it.. damn shame.

[cagthehack]

Would love to have Phase Walk back. It was a kick in the nuts to take it from us and give it to Sorcs, who already had everything going for them. I want my Force Lightning back too. And I would like for Maul to not have positional requirements.

 

Give me this and I'm happy.

 

I play Deception. Force Lightning is useless. BUT I loved it. Rarely used it in PVE, but in PVP I did. But really, the main reason I loved is because it was cool. Looked great too. I miss it.

 

Now of course, many of my abilities look like I'm spinning a baton around (Surging Charge is the biggest offender).

 

As for Maul, as a style of play, I prefer it to be a "backstab". But I understand that other classes do not have a positional requirement for their version of "backstab". So many it's time to retire that.

Edited July 7, 2017 by cagthehack

[brazilboy]

From Patch Notes:

 

Assassin

 

The Insulation Utility will now properly grant 30% armor rating for Hatred and Deception Assassins.

 

Maul no longer has a positional requirement but now deals slightly more damage if used while behind a target and less damage if used while facing a target.

[DarkSaberMaster]

From Patch Notes:

 

Assassin

 

The Insulation Utility will now properly grant 30% armor rating for Hatred and Deception Assassins.

 

Maul no longer has a positional requirement but now deals slightly more damage if used while behind a target and less damage if used while facing a target.

 

I am actually surprised they did that with Maul. Even if it does have lower damage. Still a win in my book.

[Morath]

Ad hominem (attacks on the arguer, not the argument) are not civil, they're logical fallacies and you reduce the quality of your (strong) argument with your manner. You'd be better off actually treating his arguments in their best light and then rebuffing them than simply and rudely dismissing them, it's beneath a player of your calibre.

 

Use of "kindly" doesn't mitigate your passive aggressiveness or exclusionary elitism friend.

 

This is probably the best retort I have seen in a long long time. Spot on. It also applies to so many posts that are well thought out but lose their force because they attack the "Arguer".

Edited July 19, 2017 by Morath

[supertimtaf]

Well, we're now at a week or two since 5.3...

We're quite on the same boat as before to be honest.

 

Hatred still need a bit of improvement to be really enjoyable to play (Improvement to single target damage would do some good, as well as DR which is mandatory for most fight).

 

Deception is a bit more "easy" to play in certain fight like Styrak HM (where the positioning requirement for Maul used to make "nightmare manifestation" a great loss of time) but still lacks a bit of damage on certain aspect (slight damage improve on the execute phase would do some good. Or a passive damage augmentation by 5%...).

On a defensive matter, Deception is fine. Bring more DcDs to the spec or class in general would ruin the PvP balance, thing that isn't needed.

 

As for Darkness Assassin... They're perfectly fine where they are.

 

I tend to agree on the point where "Assassin's Shelter" utility definitely need some changes. The heals that it brings are quite useless, a DR or a reflect like PT or Jugg would be great in terms of raid utility.

 

And I think that's about it. Keep in mind that it's only my point of view (Seeing a lot of those "plz nerf stealth" post lately )