Help me with Critical Rating vs Power

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

the only stat that does not translate from a dummy to real play is alacrity because of the unique way that it works

 

if mastery does more damage than power on a dummy, it does more damage than power in pvp

 

it is totally worthwhile to be aware of the limits of dummy parse numbers but if you're going to use that gap to argue that crit is worthless, or that power does more dps than mastery then you fundamentally don't understand how the math here works (those are precisely the sort of determinations that dummy parse scripts are good for)

 

Mastery doesn't do more damage that power, power does more damage than mastery strictly speaking. Mastery with it's very small cointribution to critical chance [0.5] is used as the argument that it can cause more damage than power if that 0.5 made the difference between the crit occuring or not. The thing is if you used all your augments slots with mastery augments you can gain 1 full percent more to your critical chance, if you used those same augments slots with power augments you'd gain approximately 14-16 points added to your mainhand damage bonus more than if they were mastery..

 

Either stat [power or mastery] needs to be fairly significant for there to be any appreciable difference. For example the difference between using say 3 Power augments or 3 Mastery augments is virtually undetectable in any meaningful way. It's literally a difference of either 0.15 added to your crit chance or 2 or 3 points added to your mainhand damage bonus. [or bonus heals].

 

Dummy parsing is highly underrated. There is no better way of getting your rotation down perfectly and ingrained into muscle memory than dummy parsing. Frequent dummy parsing will increase you're overall performance even in a live fight. Like anything else, practice makes perfect.

 

Of course in a live fight you do not have the luxuary pf standing in one place the whole time you are fighting and only need to worry about your rotation. You'll always do less DPS in any live action play than you will on a dummy. You need to practice live action as well of course, doing great on a dummy doesn't mean you'll do great in a raid or in a PVP match, but those who practice their rotations on a dummy will usually perform better in live fights more than someone who never dummy parses. Overtime, dummy parsing on a fairly regular basis will increase your DPS over all and allows you to determine the ceiling levels of a spec.

 

People mock dummy parsers as "dummy warriors", little do they know that if they practiced on a dummy, however good they are already doing they'd be doing even better if they had. Anyone who says dummy parsing is useless and means nothing is a fool. That's why there is a section for it on Parsely - If you can't even do it on a dummy , you most certainly can't do it in a live fight.

[yellow_]

Mastery doesn't do more damage that power, power does more damage than mastery strictly speaking.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=918622

[Seterade]

Oh... that's who bant was? I did as he said on deception assassin, then took off the "10%" alacrity and did 500 more dps in 5.0

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=918622

 

I said strictly speaking and went on to explain.

 

Simple test. Take out one Mastery Augment and replace it with a power augment. Your bonus damage will go up.

 

I touched on the small increase to crit from mastery as well. 0.5 increase to your crit is undetectable, than again so is +1 added to your damage bonus. The effects are only felt when the stat pools are sufficient enough [whether mastery or power] to make a discernible difference.

 

Even when they are sufficient to make a discernible difference, doesn't mean they necessarily will. RNG always plays it's part.+1% to your crit only matters if you roll under the crit chance. Certainly it gives a better chance that it will roll in your favor, but no matter how high your crit chance may be more often than not you are not going to get a crit result. Just like the higher your accuracy is the less chance there is for a miss, but you are still going to miss sometimes.

 

RNG>Everything else.

Edited May 13, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Jake_Chambers]

Oh... that's who bant was? I did as he said on deception assassin, then took off the "10%" alacrity and did 500 more dps in 5.0

 

I'm amazed at how someone like bant can run thousands of simulations and accurately find the best stats, and then one person comes up with anecdotal "evidence" and think they've disproven something. If you did 500 dps more clearly it was a rotational change, or something else. The stats have been backed up eight thousand times. Where's your evidence?

Edited May 13, 2017 by Jake_Chambers

[Seterade]

I could remake the combat files I suppose.

 

When 5.0 began like everyone else I had no idea what I was doing, so I looked up guides. I was in full 242 assassin, but no matter what I did, using bants optimal stats guide for deception assassin, I couldn't parse higher 7.5k, I was so frustrated. I knew I had been maining assassins since 3.0, I knew my rotation was solid, but I couldn't hit 8k.

 

Then I dropped the 10% alacrity for power mods in place of the alacrity augs, because I love to experiment, and suddenly my deception assassin parse went from 7.5k to 8.1k, no def debuffs on the dummy, only the 1.5m hp mod.

 

The point is, don't quote ppl as the be all and end all, it's amazing how much the "general" ideas can be wrong. Like how the hatred assassin guide on dulfy for pvp doesn't have force speed emersion utility as a must...... or the generalized concept that pvp doesn't require accuracy. Pvp requires 107% to 108% accuracy. this is based on how many points it takes for low slash to never "deflect" or priming shot, or impact bolt, the list goes on.

 

Edit: btw.... 8k times? I can't say for certain, but doing a rotation in every possible stat combo each 8k times would be quite the trial....

Edited May 13, 2017 by Seterade

[DarthRaika]

I'm too lazy to pay much attention to stats and I usually just quickly read what the less lazy players are saying and gear in that general way but one thing I have been doing while gearing my alts is one accuracy enhancement and one accuracy augment. This get's me slightly over 105%.

 

Earlier this season I wasn't paying attention and I was using 2 enhancements which put me around 107%. Doing 1 aug and 1 enh is a little boost towards min/maxing at least (imo).

[DavidAtkinson]

Looking at this thread made me realize that Hatred assasins are very rare these days.. especially in ranked.

 

What's the reason for this ? I think in some cases it can mess up enemies in ranked ranked even more than deception does IF not focused.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Oh... that's who bant was? I did as he said on deception assassin, then took off the "10%" alacrity and did 500 more dps in 5.0

 

You can use the same exact build with the same exact gear and choices and use the same exact rotation and your DPS will vary by 100s. That's perfectly normal. That's the effects of RNG. All combat is effected by RNG, sometimes you'll get more crits than at other times, sometimes you'll miss more, sometimes your damage range rolls will me less than others.

 

If you use a parser you will see this all broken down so u could clearly see how the rng is effecting. It will list the percentage of crits you had, how often you missed and the averages of your damage rolls hit for hit. It breaks down everything into what goes into those math equations that go on behind the scenes [RNG].

 

In most cases, 1% alacrity translates 1% more DPS [rng] and makes everything do occur 1% faster. When you alacrity you can look at the cooldown times before you add it and after you add it and you will see that the time listed for the cooldown shortens each time to add some more alacrity [how much it shortens is dependent on how much alacrity you add.] So before a cool down might be listed as 3.5 seconds, and after you add an alacrity aug it will chance to 3.4 or 3.3 seconds. Alacrity effects all your cool downs in this manner. There does come a point where no matter how much more alacrity you may add the cool down does not lessen any further.

 

While the recommended values for tertiary stats differ between specs, they're all important to all class and specs and the total absence of one [for example not using any alacrity at all] will without question lower your DPS over all. While there is a chance that you might not make a crit roll on any given attack because your crit chance roll didn't come up, alacrity is always in effect and will provide it's 'bonus' all the time. There are no unimportant tertiary stats.

 

There's nothing wrong with using some power or mastery augs, but, if that's all you are using you are doing less DPS than you would have had you not ignored the other tertiary stats.

 

Doing 5 or 10 parses is far for too few to draw any conclusions to the values of more or less tertiary stats in your build and proves nothing. What Bant did essentially was come up with a program that could test a gazillion different ways you could build a character stat wise than run those as if doing a full dummy parse 100s of times thereby getting a realistic idea of what the likely outcomes would be on average so as to insure that it was not just RNG that explained the different results. Math is a science after all.

 

The recommended stat values for the different values are not written in stone and variations on them will not drastically change things unless you drastically alter the recommended values. So if the recommended value for Crit is listed at 1800 and you chose to only use 1700, it's not going to make a huge difference, but the further away you go from those recommended values [if you ran 800 crit instead of 1800] those differences will become more and more unfavorable.

 

You can choose not to use any alacrity at all, that's certainly your prerogative, but you are gimping yourself by doing so. You are without question lowering your damage ceiling by using no alacrity. [DPS = Damage per second] alacrity makes you faster and gets that damage out quicker. Speed increases DPS more than a few extra points of bonus damage do because your damage rolls are based on RNG and adding power does not make every attack that hits do that much more damage you gained from the power increase, it increases the potential damage ceiling and increases the minimum damage you can do. That's why you see it listed as a damage bonus range, of it were just added damage it would be one number. The damage bonus you get on a hit is based on a RNG roll and will fall somewhere in between the minimum and maximum values listed as your damage bonus range.

Edited May 13, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[kissingaiur]

Snip

 

You write 3000 word essays and you still don't understand why Mastery is weighed higher than Power. It isn't because of the Crit within Mastery, it is because of the Inquistor class buff. With this buff within the game it slightly shifts each percentage of Mastery to be higher per point than Power. That's why when Bant listed the value of each Mastery augments to be slightly higher than Power for a DPS gain.

 

From my understanding, tertiary stats are important but as you can see from Bant's number crunching, at a certain Crit/Alacrity DR Mastery starts creeping in effectiveness over tertiary stats for DPS (only for DPS). This is even more so in PvP because the only stat that suffers from damage uptime is Alacrity. That's why players have pointed out the only stat that doesn't translate well from PvE DPS statistics to PvP is Alacrity with how uniquely it works. That means technically when optimizing you could, as a DPS, drop some Alacrity in PvP because you can assume you probably will not use all the GCDs gained by Alacrity effectively therefore decreasing the effectiveness of Alacrity when gaining the highest DPS output. That's why in PvP the ONLY stat that comes into question is Alacrity and everything else is pretty much a set value.

 

Steps for a PvP DPS when gearing:

 

Step 1) Reach Crit DR

Step 2)* Have enough Accuracy if you use white damage

Step 3)* Have enough Alacrity if you need to create a burst window (Carnage)

Step 4) Stacking Mastery vs. Alacrity theory-crafting

 

*Only in specific cases

Edited May 13, 2017 by kissingaiur

[stoopicus]

You write 3000 word essays and you still don't understand why Mastery is weighed higher than Power. It isn't because of the Crit within Mastery, it is because of the Inquistor class buff.

 

And even then, until very high levels of crit, the crit is enough regardless.

 

Doc and Hottie are totally right here. My only slight disagreement way above was to say that in a PvP environment (i.e. bursty and not sustained), once crit is into its diminishing returns range (1900+, roughly), for most classes but even for 'sins, augging Mastery or Power is probably close to a wash - both are fine and the difference will be minimal. But from a technical standpoint, trying to argue against the existing volume of testing and research here - LOL. This problem has been experimented the crap out of already, and well documented by Bant.

Edited May 13, 2017 by stoopicus

[Evolixe]

He is right though. Power does give you more damage point for point than Mastery does.

The difference is that Mastery gets you some crit chance. 50 Mastery will give you less bonus damage than 50 Power.

But 50 Mastery also gets you like 0.05% or 0.1% Crit chance.

 

I think you shouldn't concentrate too much on Power NOR Mastery anyway. Get Alacrity. It's good.

Edited May 13, 2017 by Evolixe

[Xertasian]

maybe i'm a old man..i'm in my 60's..i'm not to tech savvy in all this numbers game..i go by what i see and experience..yall did this from a logical sense of view with parses and other tools..

 

coming from a common sense view still not seeing how this add up..i will explain my point..earlier i used 2 screenshots of my fully 248 min/max sin..one ss was with all power mods and other ss was all mastery mods..this was the result which you can go back to page 2 of this thread and see for yourself..

 

power augs..melee damage 4267-4989..bonus damage 3986.2..CRITICAL 44.22%..ball lightning 9042-9243..

 

mastery augs..melee damage 4239-4961..bonus damage 3958.0..CRITICAL 45.55%..ball lightning 8967-9228..

 

using common sense the power augs have bigger numbers overall besides critical..which mastery augs give you the most critical..which is under 2% difference..even the attack skills..example ball lightning with power augs 9042..ball lightning with mastery augs 8967..

 

to the meat of the topic..you telling me if we use 2 sins with my stats..one using mastery augs and one using power augs..the mastery augs will do more damage overall when parsing..yall saying basically 2% more critical gonna make that big of a difference to overall dps..

 

yes i have the sorceror buff for 5% mastery bonus..looking from a common sense point of view.how can mastery do more damage in burst or otherwise than power..yes yall did the number crunching and testing..something not adding up.going by the stats mastery is lower than power..

 

i'm asking to whoever want to answer..the 2% more critical you get from using mastery augs make that big of a difference on overall dps..what i think the person who did this bant..probably the toon wasn't min/max fully..he also probably didnt have all datacrons unlock which add alot to overall stats..which i have all unlocked..

 

even when critting the power aug build gonna hit harder..i mean 9042 is bigger than 8967..unless mastery does something to the numbers we can't see with our eyes or on paper..i just dont see how it possible for mastery to give bigger numbers..in burst damage or sustained..

Edited May 13, 2017 by Xertasian

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

maybe i'm a old man..i'm in my 60's..i'm not to tech savvy in all this numbers game..i go by what i see and experience..yall did this from a logical sense of view with parses and other tools..

 

coming from a common sense view still not seeing how this add up..i will explain my point..earlier i used 2 screenshots of my fully 248 min/max sin..one ss was with all power mods and other ss was all mastery mods..this was the result which you can go back to page 2 of this thread and see for yourself..

 

power augs..melee damage 4267-4989..bonus damage 3986.2..CRITICAL 44.22%..ball lightning 9042-9243..

 

mastery augs..melee damage 4239-4961..bonus damage 3958.0..CRITICAL 45.55%..ball lightning 8967-9228..

 

using common sense the power augs have bigger numbers overall besides critical..which mastery augs give you the most critical..which is under 2% difference..even the attack skills..example ball lightning with power augs 9042..ball lightning with mastery augs 8967..

 

to the meat of the topic..you telling me if we use 2 sins with my stats..one using mastery augs and one using power augs..the mastery augs will do more damage overall when parsing..yall saying basically 2% more critical gonna make that big of a difference to overall dps..

 

yes i have the sorceror buff for 5% mastery bonus..looking from a common sense point of view.how can mastery do more damage in burst or otherwise than power..yes yall did the number crunching and testing..something not adding up.going by the stats mastery is lower than power..

 

i'm asking to whoever want to answer..the 2% more critical you get from using mastery augs make that big of a difference on overall dps..what i think the person who did this bant..probably the toon wasn't min/max fully..he also probably didnt have all datacrons unlock which add alot to overall stats..which i have all unlocked..

 

even when critting the power aug build gonna hit harder..i mean 9042 is bigger than 8967..unless mastery does something to the numbers we can see with our eyes or on paper..i just dont see how it possible for mastery to give bigger numbers..in burst damage or sustained..

 

There needs to be significant amounts of difference to see any obvious effects.

 

50 points of power instead of mastery or the other way around is not sufficient enough of a difference that you will see percievable differences. Power Crystals raise your power by +41. Those 41 points translates to a 10 point increase to your Main hand damage bonus range. 10 points, 20 points, even 30 points are not going to make a noticable difference. If you weren't able to hit 9.7k lets say before you added the power crystal, that difference isn't going to start making you hit 9.8k.

 

Even these damage bonus' you get from power or mastery are not cumliative and stacked on top of your damage roll, they only raise the cieling of the potential damage you could get. Using your example:

 

ball lightning 9042-9243..

ball lightning 8967-9228..

 

Your damage out come can be 9100 either way, even though you have a higher potential damage ceiling with the first build, that doesn't mean you can't get the very same amount of damage being done with either build.

 

Unless the RNG roll for your damage is the highest it can be, you are not doing 10 more points of damage that you would have had you not added the power crystal. Your damage is going to somewhere between the maximum and minumum range listed. Consider it more potential damage, only to be felt if you roll the highest damage roll possible which would bring you to your new damage ceiling.

 

Regarding the extra 2% to your critical chance. Yes, it can potentially allow you to do more damage than had you just used power. But it is entirely dependent on whether you land a critical or not. A 40% critical chance is obviously more likely to yield you a critical hit than 38% critical chance, but if you do not roll within those margins your not doing a critical either way. A 2% extra chance to critical can make the difference whether you get a critical result or not. The extra damage you will get from even one extra critical will dwarf the potential to get 10 more points of damage if you used power instead. One critical can land you 100's even thousands of more points of damage compared to the same attack landed without a critical. That's why the automatic criticals you can get from the 6 piece set bonus is so important.

Edited May 13, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Xertasian]

There needs to be significant amounts of difference to see any obvious effects.

 

50 points of power instead of mastery or the other way around is not sufficient enough of a difference that you will see percievable differences. Power Crystals raise your power by +41. Those 41 points translates to a 10 point increase to your Main hand damage bonus range. 10 points, 20 points, even 30 points are not going to make a noticable difference. If you weren't able to hit 9.7k lets say before you added the power crystal, that difference isn't going to start making you hit 9.8k.

 

Even these damage bonus' you get from power or mastery are not cumliative and stacked on top of your damage roll, they only raise the cieling of the potential damage you could get. Using your example:

 

ball lightning 9042-9243..

ball lightning 8967-9228..

 

Your damage out come can be 9100 either way, even though you have a higher potential damage ceiling with the first build, that doesn't mean you can't get the very same amount of damage being done with either build.

 

Unless the RNG roll for your damage is the highest it can be, you are not doing 10 more points of damage that you would have had you not added the power crystal. Your damage is going to somewhere between the maximum and minumum range listed. Consider it more potential damage, only to be felt if you roll the highest damage roll possible which would bring you to your new damage ceiling.

 

Regarding the extra 2% to your critical chance. Yes, it can, once again, potentially allow you to do more damage than had you just used power. But it is entirely dependent on whether you land a critical or not. A 40% critical chance is obviously more likely to yield you a critical hit than 38% critical chance, but if you do not roll within those margins your not doing a critical either way. A 2% extra chance to critical can make the difference whether you get a critical result if you rolled a 39. If you rolled a 41, you don't get a crit either way. The extra damage you will get from even one extra critical will dwarf the potential to get 10 more points of damage if you used power instead. One critical can land you 100's even thousands of more points of damage compared to the same attack landed without a critical.

 

think i understand now..9042-9243 power aug..8967-9228 mastery aug..basically i do 5 non crit attacks with ball lightning..i do 9100 damage in the 5 attacks using power augs..i do 9200 in 5 attacks using the mastery mods..therefor i'm doing more dps in mastery spec compared to power aug spec..

 

basically this is the meaning..even though my stats are higher with all power augs..it dont mean that i will hit the big numbers more than using mastery augs..or i probably get bigger numbers overall with mastery augs over power..making my sustained higher with mastery augs..

Edited May 13, 2017 by Xertasian

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

You write 3000 word essays and you still don't understand why Mastery is weighed higher than Power. It isn't because of the Crit within Mastery, it is because of the Inquistor class buff. With this buff within the game it slightly shifts each percentage of Mastery to be higher per point than Power. That's why when Bant listed the value of each Mastery augments to be slightly higher than Power for a DPS gain.

 

From my understanding, tertiary stats are important but as you can see from Bant's number crunching, at a certain Crit/Alacrity DR Mastery starts creeping in effectiveness over tertiary stats for DPS (only for DPS). This is even more so in PvP because the only stat that suffers from damage uptime is Alacrity. That's why players have pointed out the only stat that doesn't translate well from PvE DPS statistics to PvP is Alacrity with how uniquely it works. That means technically when optimizing you could, as a DPS, drop some Alacrity in PvP because you can assume you probably will not use all the GCDs gained by Alacrity effectively therefore decreasing the effectiveness of Alacrity when gaining the highest DPS output. That's why in PvP the ONLY stat that comes into question is Alacrity and everything else is pretty much a set value.

 

Steps for a PvP DPS when gearing:

 

Step 1) Reach Crit DR

Step 2)* Have enough Accuracy if you use white damage

Step 3)* Have enough Alacrity if you need to create a burst window (Carnage)

Step 4) Stacking Mastery vs. Alacrity theory-crafting

 

*Only in specific cases

 

Yeah, I'm a long winded mofo, I'll work on that.

 

It's a good point about the alacrity in PVP, doesn't translate as well as it does in PVE. Alacrity's full benefits are really more about longer single engagements, which you don't see very often in pvp.. The alacrity can still help to speed up your cooldowns in PVP though, which has some value I'd think.

Edited May 13, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[yellow_]

He is right though. Power does give you more damage point for point than Mastery does.

The difference is that Mastery gets you some crit chance. 50 Mastery will give you less bonus damage than 50 Power.

But 50 Mastery also gets you like 0.05% or 0.1% Crit chance.

 

I think you shouldn't concentrate too much on Power NOR Mastery anyway. Get Alacrity. It's good.

I guess I can't speak for everyone but I am fairly confident when people say something does more damage that is synonymous with saying it does more dps, bonus damage is just a factor in what people actually care about: DPS

 

a few specific people are pedantically insisting that power does more damage than mastery because it adds more bonus damage as if that were a useful definition of "does more damage" (it's a confusing and counter productive definition). by that definition it "does more damage" than crit and alacrity too....

Edited May 13, 2017 by yellow_

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I guess I can't speak for everyone but I am fairly confident when people say something does more damage that is synonymous with saying it does more dps, bonus damage is just a factor in what people actually care about: DPS

 

a few specific people are pedantically insisting that power does more damage than mastery because it adds more bonus damage as if that were a useful definition of "does more damage" (it's a confusing and counter productive definition). by that definition it "does more damage" than crit and alacrity too....

 

Fair point about the terminology used perhaps can cause confusion. There is a distinction. I tried to illustrate that in a previous post.

[Evolixe]

I guess I can't speak for everyone but I am fairly confident when people say something does more damage that is synonymous with saying it does more dps, bonus damage is just a factor in what people actually care about: DPS

 

a few specific people are pedantically insisting that power does more damage than mastery because it adds more bonus damage as if that were a useful definition of "does more damage" (it's a confusing and counter productive definition). by that definition it "does more damage" than crit and alacrity too....

 

The extra "DPS" it'll do is totally negligible. Especially in a PvP envirionment.

[Rion_Starkiller]

One thing I've been meaning to try out for siths and giggles is to run 900 crit + mastery augs + devastating vengeance relic (no mastery relic).