VinceNight Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Both Sides have very valid points, in one hand it was Anakin for returning to the light side of the force and destroying the last sith before he himself expired. No, he had several clone bodies. His original body died aboard the second Death Star in 4 ABY, two others died in 10 ABY and the last in 11 ABY. Clari...wait for it...ficiation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weaselis Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) wasnt luke's sis force sensitive too ?since they hid him and his sis from vader so vader couldnt teach either of them? Edited January 19, 2012 by Weaselis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siraco Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) Unless im missing something the prophecy is a fallacy and makes zero sense. At the time of Qui-gon the Jedi are on top and the Sith are practically non existent. The pendulum is swung completely to the side of light, thats the opposite of balance. In that state an individual prophesied to bring balance to the force would be someone who would topple the Jedi's dominance and bring equal power back to the Sith. In other words there should of been a standing order to kill any such person on the spot. Instead they look for him and once found want to train him, huh?. To what end?, the status quo of the time was the force being unbalanced in the Jedi's favour what were they thinking he would do for them?. Ironically he did not even bring the balance foretold, he decimated the Jedi and completely swung the pendulum to its other apex on the side of darkness. Balance of the force would be a continued stalemate with no one side gaining the upperhand over the other. Edited January 19, 2012 by Siraco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Unless im missing something the prophecy is a fallacy and makes zero sense. At the time of Qui-gon the Jedi are on top and the Sith are practically non existent. The pendulum is swung completely to the side of light, thats the opposite of balance. In that state an individual prophesied to bring balance to the force would be someone who would topple the Jedi's dominance and bring equal power back to the Sith. In other words there should of been a standing order to kill any such person on the spot. Instead they look for him and once found want to train him, huh?. To what end?, the status quo of the time was the force being unbalanced in the Jedi's favour what were they thinking he would do for them?. No. The force was not balanced in the Jedi's favor. Balance extends past Jedi and Sith. Also Sidious existed during the time of Qui Gon and Obi Wan Kenobi. Sidious was so powerful and the Sith had amassed so much influence by the time of the movies that the galaxy itself was becoming dark. Negativity can be sound to be dark. Positivity can be said to be light. Even without the Sith there is still corruption, unhappiness, misery, anger, and hate. These things don't need the Sith in order to exist. Jedi and Sith have the ability to feel and act on the force but the force will exist regardless if Jedi and Sith do. The rule of two allowed each generation of Sith to become more powerful until they hit a level of power that was clouding out the light side of the force. The Jedi admit that their ability to use the force is diminishing. That's how unbalanced the dark side has become. The Sith weren't nonexistent. They were in hiding and building up power over the years while the Jedi had thought they won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharagonIGN Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I think there is a completely different meaning that everybody (even GL) has overlooked. When Anakin came around, the Jedi were already in the process of falling. They had become too strict in their training. Instead of confronting the Dark Side of the Force, they ran from it. They forbid temptations instead of overcoming them. This became a problem when Anakin appeared because Anakin was born proficient in both sides of the Force. Shielding him from the Dark Side was pointless and every time they did it just pushed him further down that path. Luke's training, and by extension the New Jedi Order, was different. They faced the temptation of the Dark Side head on so they could accept it without being overcome by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siraco Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 No. The force was not balanced in the Jedi's favor. Balance extends past Jedi and Sith. Also Sidious existed during the time of Qui Gon and Obi Wan Kenobi. Sidious was so powerful and the Sith had amassed so much influence by the time of the movies that the galaxy itself was becoming dark. Negativity can be sound to be dark. Positivity can be said to be light. Even without the Sith there is still corruption, unhappiness, misery, anger, and hate. These things don't need the Sith in order to exist. Jedi and Sith have the ability to feel and act on the force but the force will exist regardless if Jedi and Sith do. The rule of two allowed each generation of Sith to become more powerful until they hit a level of power that was clouding out the light side of the force. The Jedi admit that their ability to use the force is diminishing. That's how unbalanced the dark side has become. The Sith weren't nonexistent. They were in hiding and building up power over the years while the Jedi had thought they won. You make a stong case, going beyond the material. Even so I find it difficult to see a situation where a small number of dark force users can push the force as a whole entity so to speak into a negative leaning which in turn increases negative physical effects in the galaxy like social order. Further, again coming back to balance, do the Jedi really want balance?. It would entail accepting at least some dark influence which seems anathema to the Jedi code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siraco Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I think there is a completely different meaning that everybody (even GL) has overlooked. When Anakin came around, the Jedi were already in the process of falling. They had become too strict in their training. Instead of confronting the Dark Side of the Force, they ran from it. They forbid temptations instead of overcoming them. This became a problem when Anakin appeared because Anakin was born proficient in both sides of the Force. Shielding him from the Dark Side was pointless and every time they did it just pushed him further down that path. Luke's training, and by extension the New Jedi Order, was different. They faced the temptation of the Dark Side head on so they could accept it without being overcome by it. Yes this seems like sound reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) You make a stong case, going beyond the material. Even so I find it difficult to see a situation where a small number of dark force users can push the force as a whole entity so to speak into a negative leaning which in turn increases negative physical effects in the galaxy like social order. Further, again coming back to balance, do the Jedi really want balance?. It would entail accepting at least some dark influence which seems anathema to the Jedi code. The Jedi seek balance by serving the force. The Jedi do accept that the dark side exists. There's various dark side religions other than the Sith that the Jedi don't mess with so long as they don't go conquering the galaxy and destroying entire planets. The Jedi also accept certain concepts that can be arguably related to the dark side. Such as death, sickness, pain, and suffering. While the Jedi only USE the light side of the force they do act on balance. There's been wars and other such scenario's that they outright avoided because it was the will of the force for them to stay out of it. It's also why they don't push the council into warring with the hutt's to free slaves. So pretty much they accept that the dark side exists and it isn't their goal to eradicate it. This brings up the imbalance when it comes to the Sith. While the Jedi don't strive to force the entire galaxy to be Light the Sith seek to destroy the Light and make everything dark. Thus Sith upset the balance whereas the Jedi don't. The reason the force had become so imbalanced because of two Sith has much to do with Palpatine's power and how secretly they've had their hand in everything without the Jedi's knowledge. The entire galaxy had been growing darker and the Jedi had been blinded to this fact leading up to the very moment of the movies. Remember, when Anakin confronted Yoda about his dreams Yoda told him not to mourn their loss. The Jedi accept that certain sad things are part of nature. He was telling Anakin he should accept it as well. TL;DR Sith seek to control the force which is unbalancing by itself. Playing God so to speak. The Jedi seek to serve the force. Acting as agents of Nature so to speak. Edited January 19, 2012 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Hazard Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Yes, he did by killing the Emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siraco Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) The Jedi seek balance by serving the force. The Jedi do accept that the dark side exists. There's various dark side religions other than the Sith that the Jedi don't mess with so long as they don't go conquering the galaxy and destroying entire planets. The Jedi also accept certain concepts that can be arguably related to the dark side. Such as death, sickness, pain, and suffering. While the Jedi only USE the light side of the force they do act on balance. There's been wars and other such scenario's that they outright avoided because it was the will of the force for them to stay out of it. It's also why they don't push the council into warring with the hutt's to free slaves. So pretty much they accept that the dark side exists and it isn't their goal to eradicate it. This brings up the imbalance when it comes to the Sith. While the Jedi don't strive to force the entire galaxy to be Light the Sith seek to destroy the Light and make everything dark. Thus Sith upset the balance whereas the Jedi don't. The reason the force had become so imbalanced because of two Sith has much to do with Palpatine's power and how secretly they've had their hand in everything without the Jedi's knowledge. The entire galaxy had been growing darker and the Jedi had been blinded to this fact leading up to the very moment of the movies. Remember, when Anakin confronted Yoda about his dreams Yoda told him not to mourn their loss. The Jedi accept that certain sad things are part of nature. He was telling Anakin he should accept it as well. TL;DR Sith seek to control the force which is unbalancing by itself. Playing God so to speak. The Jedi seek to serve the force. Acting as agents of Nature so to speak. Here's one. Does the force seek balance for itself or is does it merely follow the will of those who wield it. By what you say it should be the former. If so any darkside dominance is doomed from the start yet for all their skill, power and knowledge of the force I have not come across any lore or tidbit of a Sith musing on this surely evident fact quite the opposite. (not that ive read everything, far from it). Seems the Sith pick and choose what they like and ignore the rest. Edited January 19, 2012 by Siraco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol_ Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 There was a Clone Wars 3 episode arc that stated he was to bring balance by keeping the Son and Daughter of 'The Ones' - embodiments of the dark and light side of the force respectively, on Mortis under control when the Father died. Keeping them on Mortis and under control would keep the force in balance and The One was the only person with the power to do it.http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Anakin_skywalker#Revelation_on_Mortis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyshadow Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I look at it the traditional way. I believe the balance of power was with the Light. By Anikin destroying the other Jedi, it narrowed down the playing field so in the end it was Palpy/Vader and Obiwan/Yoda. We know that there were stragglers (since we've read books (Mara Jade for example) and played Force Unleashed, etc), but no one of any serious power to tip the balance. Look at it like this, we know WHY Yoda chose Dagobah. Because a powerful Dark Jedi died there and imprinted the area with Darkside energy, this negated the energy that Yoda exuded, the perfect cover. That's just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enigmacypher Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 the sith are all about control and in this they want absolute control over everything they can see the jedi are supposed to "go with the flow" without following the darkside but nor should they choose the "good" as this is control again which is the error that the jedi order fell into at the end of episode 3 as they felt they had the right to depose the leader of the senate without consultation of the leaders as a whole. as the jedi were to follow a "zen" train of thinking in my mind they should be neither for or against as this makes them cease to be impartial or without attachments (you can be attached too much to a good feeling to the point of losing the balance as any reformed abuser of man medication) just me 2 cents worth as a closet buddhist. <fyi i would like to know why buddhism is in the filter but no other world religion is> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armah Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) Potential Spoiler alert. The most recent book Darth Plagueis explained how Anakin was to be the balance. Plagueis (Sidious master) experimented with creating life with the force. During the height of his work Anakin was born on another planet. He came about as a counter balance to what the Sith were doing. The way the Jedi managed him, his shortcomings and Sidious influence led to his downfall. Plagueis himself talked about moving with the currents of the Force and the backlash that could result from not doing so. He seemed to regard Anakins birth as a reaction from the force. Edited January 19, 2012 by Armah spoiler alert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atheelogos Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Hello folks a buddy of mine and I have been debating weather or not Qui-Gon Jinn was correct in believing Anakin Skywalker (AKA Darth Vader) was the one foretold in the prophecy to bring balance to the force, Or was it his son Luke Skywalker? Both Sides have very valid points, in one hand it was Anakin for returning to the light side of the force and destroying the last sith before he himself expired. Or Luke being used as an instrument of the force, his actions being the result his father returned to the light. I really wanted to see what the community has to say on this. And go In Lucas's canon yes he was right. He kills the last of the Sith and u get the happily ever after. In the extended universe no Anakin didn't banish the Sith and didn't bring balance to the force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 In Lucas's canon yes he was right. He kills the last of the Sith and u get the happily ever after. In the extended universe no Anakin didn't banish the Sith and didn't bring balance to the force. No. He did. You can argue that the Sith have never had the control/influence they have had in the past. Now there's also always skywalkers to bring them down every time they crop up. Another theory on EU balance is that it was the rule of two sith that created such a powerful imbalance. In the EU the rule of two is abolished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbineaction Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 The prophecy couldve meant that anikan was the chosen one because he continued the skywalker family and the skywalkers are their now to prvent the sith from ever taking over so even if one of anikans decendents kills of the sith anikan could thecnicly( sorry i cant spell today) killed off the sith because he chose to marry and continue the skywalker legacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SammyRath Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Plagueis (Sidious master) experimented with creating life with the force. During the height of his work Anakin was born on another planet. He came about as a counter balance to what the Sith were doing. The way the Jedi managed him, his shortcomings and Sidious influence led to his downfall. Plagueis himself talked about moving with the currents of the Force and the backlash that could result from not doing so. He seemed to regard Anakins birth as a reaction from the force. That makes perfect sense. That sounds like the perfect explanation to me. Did you just settle this whole debate? You did for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fettpett Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Here's one. Does the force seek balance for itself or is does it merely follow the will of those who wield it. By what you say it should be the former. If so any darkside dominance is doomed from the start yet for all their skill, power and knowledge of the force I have not come across any lore or tidbit of a Sith musing on this surely evident fact quite the opposite. (not that ive read everything, far from it). Seems the Sith pick and choose what they like and ignore the rest. The Force, just IS. It doesn't seek anything really. It's the individuals that focus on the Force and meditate that interpret what they see in the Force. Some who have the talent for soothsaying are able to see future events. Which leads one to think that the Force is "outside of time" or "all points of time". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crese Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 You know he actually did bring balance to the Force as he killed Palpatine who was the last Dark Lord of the Sith, I have read up all EU after the movies, I read that all the Sith spirits don't consider anyone sith after Palpatine , not only the One Sith but have you seen any spirits of Darth Caedus and his Sith nope, about all those claiming to be Sith after RoTJ, well they were Dark Adepts, Dark Jedi, Dark Prophets, etc. No true Sith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmevan Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Disclaimer: I'm discussing this topic in regards to the extended universe The Prophecy said Anakin would bring balance to the FORCE, not balance between the Jedi and the Sith. Remember that there are more force users in the galaxy than the Jedi and the Sith. Palpatine had managed to become powerful enough to decimate the users of the Light side of the Force enough that the Dark side had near absolute power. When Anakin/Vader kills Palpatine the balance between the two sides of the Force is restored because neither Light nor Dark is in control of the galaxy. But even when Palpatine is defeated there is balance. In reference to the Rule of Two, just because one uses the darkside of the force doesn't make them a Sith Lord. The Rule of Two only refers to Sith Lords. If this wasn't true the Rule would have already been broken since Mara Jade was a user of the darkside as the Emperor's Hand, yet Vader and Palpatine were both Sith Lords. I have no idea how this game follows the Rule of Two unless it simply doesn't exist yet, or that many of these "Lords" aren't Sith Lords at all and there are truly only two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Disclaimer: I'm discussing this topic in regards to the extended universe The Prophecy said Anakin would bring balance to the FORCE, not balance between the Jedi and the Sith. Remember that there are more force users in the galaxy than the Jedi and the Sith. Palpatine had managed to become powerful enough to decimate the users of the Light side of the Force enough that the Dark side had near absolute power. When Anakin/Vader kills Palpatine the balance between the two sides of the Force is restored because neither Light nor Dark is in control of the galaxy. But even when Palpatine is defeated there is balance. In reference to the Rule of Two, just because one uses the darkside of the force doesn't make them a Sith Lord. The Rule of Two only refers to Sith Lords. If this wasn't true the Rule would have already been broken since Mara Jade was a user of the darkside as the Emperor's Hand, yet Vader and Palpatine were both Sith Lords. I have no idea how this game follows the Rule of Two unless it simply doesn't exist yet, or that many of these "Lords" aren't Sith Lords at all and there are truly only two. The rule of two doesn't exist yet. The rule of two was started by Darth Bane which is millenia after this game takes place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmevan Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Thank you, I haven't read the Darth Bane books so I wasn't aware of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChanMaradar Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Well, given that Anakin chucked the Emperor down an energy shaft, he ended the 2nd to last Sith in existence. And by "ensuring" he was mortally wounded with no apprentices, he did in fact end the Sith line forever. Or at least give Light and Dark a fighting chance by resetting things from near-total Sith domination, depending on how much Expanded Universe you enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Well, given that Anakin chucked the Emperor down an energy shaft, he ended the 2nd to last Sith in existence. And by "ensuring" he was mortally wounded with no apprentices, he did in fact end the Sith line forever. Or at least give Light and Dark a fighting chance by resetting things from near-total Sith domination, depending on how much Expanded Universe you enjoy. Well, even in the EU there are no Sith Lords after Sidious. All Sith Lords are self proclaimed as such. Before Sidious each Sith Lord came from a certain lineage or were proclaimed as such by ancient Sith Spirits. The Sith spirits have rejected every Dark Lord since then including Darth Krayt and if they weren't rejected they proclaimed themselves as Lords of the Sith. So technically.. there hasn't been any true Sith Lords for a long time. The closest there are to real Sith is the lost tribe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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