5.2 Gear Gap is Wrecking New Players

[Kurj]

So basically bolster to Tier 4 blue drops? The only issue I see with that, is that it makes 1 more tier of effectively useless gear. Grinding 3 tiers of useless gear (or even 2 if they get rid of the current Tier 1) seems like a disincentive to me, and the goal should be to keep people playing more, chasing those carrots.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

So basically bolster to Tier 4 blue drops? The only issue I see with that, is that it makes 1 more tier of effectively useless gear. Grinding 3 tiers of useless gear (or even 2 if they get rid of the current Tier 1) seems like a disincentive to me, and the goal should be to keep people playing more, chasing those carrots.

 

There's always 3 ratings of 'top gear' [For example in 4.0 it was 216, 220, and 224, 224 being the BIS gear of that meta]. And so you could make the same argument that grinding for 216s and 220s [ grinding of the content of 4.0] is useless gear because 224 was the best. Thing is 216's helped you to get 220's and 220s helped you to get 224. But when you were still running around in 190 rated gear, the prospect of getting 216 was still good because it was going to to give you better stats, same for 220s would give you better stats than you have in 216s and so. So you gotta look at it that way. Some improvement is better than no improvement and a little improvement is still improvement. 220s provided the carrot for your 216 days, and 224's were the carrot while you were still in 220s.

 

The gearing mechanism may have been different, but the cause and effect are still the same.

 

The only trouble is, most PVPers simply don't want to chase carrots, and so don't serve as incentive to them.

PVPers make terrible rabbits.

Edited April 27, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Eli_Porter]

Bolster gear gap is really overstated IMO. A bolstered optimized char with set bonuses and a 246/8 hilt is quite competitive, remember that hilts/barrels make up a lot of the DPS. And while there's still a difference between 238 and 248 on the rest of the gear, that doesn't take augments and base stats into account which are the same for all characters (datacrons aside).

 

Regarding T1-T2 giving useless gear and how they should be "skipped", I disagree there as well. Tier 1 crates give sets and optimal left-side gear which can't be obtained from the GTN/crafting, and CXP rates were buffed enough to make T1 levels fly by fairly quickly. As for T2 crates, they give you gear upgrade-able to above bolster levels. Yes there's still an issue of T1/T2 rewards being on the low side if you have a T4 main to gear your alts, but that could be buffed in other ways.

 

The gear gap issue I see is the existence of people without augments and "bad" PvP stats (high acc/def/shield) who will quit before they ever know any better. That and 246 hilts/barrels not being craft-able at the moment.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[Kurj]

Really good points. My suggestion would be bolster set at 240 (8 below max level, which is how it was set in 4.x), with 3 tiers of gear. Tier 1 (236) is below bolster, but should be very easy to acquire. Tier 2 is slightly over bolster, and I think the current rate of acquisition is fine for Tiers 2 and 3. I hadn't really thought about the lack of augments being a problem, because I always knew I would have to buy them. But I definitely agree on the issue of useless PVP stats. Most new players just don't know, and if they aren't motivated to do some research, they won't find out.

[DarthRaika]

Bolster gear gap is really overstated IMO. A bolstered optimized char with set bonuses and a 246/8 hilt is quite competitive, remember that hilts/barrels make up a lot of the DPS. And while there's still a difference between 238 and 248 on the rest of the gear, that doesn't take augments and base stats into account which are the same for all characters (datacrons aside).

 

Regarding T1-T2 giving useless gear and how they should be "skipped", I disagree there as well. Tier 1 crates give sets and optimal left-side gear which can't be obtained from the GTN/crafting, and CXP rates were buffed enough to make T1 levels fly by fairly quickly. As for T2 crates, they give you gear upgrade-able to above bolster levels. Yes there's still an issue of T1/T2 rewards being on the low side if you have a T4 main to gear your alts, but that could be buffed in other ways.

 

The gear gap issue I see is the existence of people without augments and "bad" PvP stats (high acc/def/shield) who will quit before they ever know any better. That and 246 hilts/barrels not being craft-able at the moment.

 

I have a char in mostly 246/248 and a char in mostly 236-242 (248 mh,242 oh). The stat difference is huge (>10%) for the stats that matter. This is huge in ranked.

 

Yes, I got 2 dps sorcs to gold in mostly 208 gear and so this gap can be overcome but it doesn't mean it isn't there.

 

Also, if you don't think the gap is very large then what would hurt moving bolster up? In your opinion there isn't a gap to begin with. I think the answer relates to a previous post of yours where you had A LOT of packs saved for 5.2 and you enjoy your gear gap. Just admit it or please ****.

[jedcjedcjedc]

Just admit it or please ****.

 

lol. gotta to love the "agree with me or leave" attitude

[Icykill_]

Also, if you don't think the gap is very large then what would hurt moving bolster up? In your opinion there isn't a gap to begin with. I think the answer relates to a previous post of yours where you had A LOT of packs saved for 5.2 and you enjoy your gear gap. Just admit it or please ****.

 

I agree, if the gap "is not so big", then why are people arguing against it being raised to similar lvl as the highest gear. It doesn't need to be the higeest, just 1 or 2 points below would still give the smallest advantage for those people who want it because they did the grind to get it. But it would also put everyone on a very close lvl playing field, similar to how it used to be.

If people have an issue with a lvl playing field it seems to indicate they need a gear gap to be competitive or they enjoy rofl stomping lower geared people. Either way it means they aren't as good of players as they think or make out they are.

Skill vs Skill pvp is for real pvpers

Gear vs gear pvp is for special snowflakes who need a crutch.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Icykill_

[Ashianti]

I have to say I think there is way too much negativity in this thread.

 

I do agree that adding new tiers too often is a very crappy thing to pvpers and/or people with several alts, because just as you start to catch up, the goal is moved.

 

I do agree that bolster level is tricky to get right, but it can't be too high because you get all these unintended effects and a lot of min/maxing math games (because lower level items sometimes have a preferable mix of stats and after bolster could be better than high level items). IMO for most of us the old system with pvp specific gear was better, but it is what it is now.

 

Does it wreck new players? I really don't think it's all that bad. Yes you are going to be quite squishy for a while, but as long as the goal isn't moved too soon, it's just a matter of time before things get noticably better. You just have to bite the bullet and be aware of your weakness and use whatever strengths you have that aren't so gear dependent in supporting the team.

 

Certainly, there are other games with much, much larger issues with pvp bolstering and gear gap!

Edited April 28, 2017 by Ashianti

[DarthRaika]

I have to say I think there is way too much negativity in this thread.

 

I do agree that adding new tiers too often is a very crappy thing to pvpers and/or people with several alts, because just as you start to catch up, the goal is moved.

 

I do agree that bolster level is tricky to get right, but it can't be too high because you get all these unintended effects and a lot of min/maxing math games (because lower level items sometimes have a preferable mix of stats and after bolster could be better than high level items). IMO for most of us the old system with pvp specific gear was better, but it is what it is now.

 

Does it wreck new players? I really don't think it's all that bad. Yes you are going to be quite squishy for a while, but as long as the goal isn't moved too soon, it's just a matter of time before things get noticably better. You just have to bite the bullet and be aware of your weakness and use whatever strengths you have that aren't so gear dependent in supporting the team.

 

Certainly, there are other games with much, much larger issues with pvp bolstering and gear gap!

 

What would be wrong with 4 levels below max? No one answers this. It isn't too high, it isn't too low.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

What would be wrong with 4 levels below max? No one answers this. It isn't too high, it isn't too low.

 

I'm a little confused by what you mean "4 levels below max" and I'd like to make sure you're being understood correctly. At face value I can only think it is referring gear ratings [ 230,236,240, 242 etc].

 

Or am I just having a blonde moment? =p

 

The only thing that makes me think I'm interpreting you incorrectly is that bolster pretty much already is set to that [230,236,242,248] . Perhaps your counting non gold gear in that spread? Soo 248,246,242,236 perhaps?

Unless I'm mistaken [always a strong possibility] I was under the impression that bolster was set to 236 as of 5.2, which would be 4 levels under max if gear rating is what you are referring to as levels.

Edited April 28, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Eli_Porter]

I have a char in mostly 246/248 and a char in mostly 236-242 (248 mh,242 oh). The stat difference is huge (>10%) for the stats that matter. This is huge in ranked.

 

Yes, I got 2 dps sorcs to gold in mostly 208 gear and so this gap can be overcome but it doesn't mean it isn't there.

 

Only stats that matter for a 10% difference are Damage and HP. Crit and Alacrity reach diminishing returns very quickly. So I'd like to know, where is the stat difference exactly?

 

Also, if you don't think the gap is very large then what would hurt moving bolster up?

 

Moving bolster up would make gear progression feel like a rewardless experience, where players see absolutely no gear progression from the point of getting optimally statted gear (T1 mk-3 augmented) to the point of reaching T4, and that's just for a small difference. I do think gear progression has room in MMO PvP, as long as it isn't a bar of entry to the highest levels of PvP (which it isn't, with you as an example).

 

In your opinion there isn't a gap to begin with. I think the answer relates to a previous post of yours where you had A LOT of packs saved for 5.2 and you enjoy your gear gap. Just admit it or please ****.

 

I had lots of packs saved since I played the game a lot, just because I enjoy the game doesn't mean I like every aspect of it. A gear gap does exist, but bolster is just one aspect which is easier to understand for new players than augments/bad stats and isn't the big deal these forums make it up to be.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[stoopicus]

Don't be disingenuous, Eli. You know full well that there is a 12% difference in all of Endurance, Mastery and Power between 248 and 238 gear. Those all have direct stat effect with little diminishing returns. Furthermore, the secondary stats also have similar 12% differences, though are somewhat mitigated by DR. Still, between 238 and 248 there is more than a 10% change to primary damage. Same is true for health. Edited April 28, 2017 by stoopicus

[Johrun]

You can easily get 236 bonus gear from doing sm ops. 240 from HMs like EV, KP... You can put item modifications from bonus 480 gear into legacy-bound gear and use it on alt of same AC, right? There are options... Sounds to me like folks come for the sake of gear possession rather than overall gaming experience. Edited April 28, 2017 by Johrun

[Eli_Porter]

Don't be disingenuous, Eli. You know full well that there is a 12% difference in all of Endurance, Mastery and Power between 248 and 238 gear. Those all have direct stat effect with little diminishing returns. Furthermore, the secondary stats also have similar 12% differences, though are somewhat mitigated by DR. Still, between 238 and 248 there is more than a 10% change to primary damage. Same is true for health.

 

A significant part of your HP comes from base stats, so a 12% difference in endurance from gear isn't a 12% difference in HP. Likewise, a significant part of your damage comes from your hilt/barrel, so 12% more power and mastery (mastery also has a base, though it's not as significant as HP) doesn't mean more than 12% higher primary damage if you have a top tier barrel/hilt.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[stoopicus]

My primary damage being bolstered was 3993. My primary damage at about half 248/246/242 with the rest 240 is just under 4400 - and that's with a 240 hilt. Just stop. Edited April 28, 2017 by stoopicus

[Icykill_]

You can easily get 236 bonus gear from doing sm ops. 240 from HMs like EV, KP... You can put item modifications from bonus 480 gear into legacy-bound gear and use it on alt of same AC, right? There are options... Sounds to me like folks come for the sake of gear possession rather than overall gaming experience.

 

You do realise there are plenty of us who only pvp and don't do any of the pve content you mentioned. I will leave the game before I have to do that content to gear for pvp. I don't pay my sub to do anything other than pvp. My game experience is pvp, if I can't play pvp on a skill vs skill basis then it's a bad experience. Nobody is going to stick around for a bad experience.

[Eli_Porter]

My primary damage being bolstered was 3993. My primary damage at about half 248/246/242 with the rest 240 is over 4400 - and that's with a 240 hilt. Just stop.

 

So you're saying that with almost equal hilts, good gear puts you 10% higher for primary damage. Doesn't seem to conflict with what I said. Keep in mind I don't know what gear you're exactly comparing, you could be using different types of mods for bolster as well.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[Icykill_]

A significant part of your HP comes from base stats, so a 12% difference in endurance from gear isn't a 12% difference in HP. Likewise, a significant part of your damage comes from your hilt/barrel, so 12% more power and mastery (mastery also has a base, though it's not as significant as HP) doesn't mean more than 12% higher primary damage if you have a top tier barrel/hilt.

 

And how much is a top tier hilt or barrel to buy on the GTN. Last I look a few days ago I saw them for over 1.6 mil.. I even saw someone had listed some for over 10 mil.

I ask you, why should we have to "pay" for hilts like that to gear up in pvp.

 

There is really only one solution to all this mess that doesn't require Bio to completely change the whole RNG gearing in the game. Which is to increase Bolster to nearly the same lvl as the top gear.

If the top gear is 248, then gear should be bolstered to 246. Those with 248 can say they've got BiS and can still have a very small advantage for getting it. But that gear will only really be useful in pve content.

Let's face it, the only reason theyve had to make so many changes so far to the 5.0 gearing system was because of pve content, not pvp. The main reason they don't want to mess around with the way you get gear is because it will mess up pve gearing.

By increasing Bolster they can keep all the gearing system in place. It is also the cheapest and easiest solution to problem. The only resources they need is for someone to go into the algorithm and type in a few numbers and then test it.

[Lundorff]

I have 3 sins at level 70 for some reason. One of these is also my primary character in general, and has relatively good gear. A quick comparison: http://i.imgur.com/xifLavn.jpg Edited April 28, 2017 by Lundorff

[Wimbleton]

They need to make the 230 gear attainable with tokens only at the very minimum. I cant imagine trying to gear a toon from the ground up in this current system without a main to poach mods/ehn from.

 

Skill > gear, bro. That's why I play a difficult class like sorc healer.

[Eli_Porter]

And how much is a top tier hilt or barrel to buy on the GTN. Last I look a few days ago I saw them for over 1.6 mil.. I even saw someone had listed some for over 10 mil.

I ask you, why should we have to "pay" for hilts like that to gear up in pvp.

 

Because PvP rewards now include stuff you can sell on the GTN. Crafting mats from PvP boxes, tier 6 gifts and orange shells from command crates.

[Lundorff]

Because PvP rewards now include stuff you can sell on the GTN. Crafting mats from PvP boxes, tier 6 gifts and orange shells from command crates.

 

Nobody gives a f*** about PVP rewards. We just want simple and easily obtainable gear like it used to be.

[stoopicus]

So you're saying that with almost equal hilts, good gear puts you 10% higher for primary damage. Doesn't seem to conflict with what I said.

 

You're arguing that a 10-12% deficit in primary, secondary and bonus damage, and additionally damage reduction and alacrity, coupled with a 5-10% difference in HP is not significant and will not have a chilling effect on alt play or be a barrier to new players, especially ranked?

 

I disagree.

 

When Bolster was 250 (i.e. 2 above current full 248) I had 137k HP. I have ~126k now and had ~112k when bolstering to 238.

Edited April 28, 2017 by stoopicus

[merovejec]

Skill > gear, bro. That's why I play a difficult class like sorc healer.

 

THIS, if people blaim gear for being bad in PVP, they are just bad.

[stoopicus]

THIS, if people blaim gear for being bad in PVP, they are just bad.

 

I think Bleloch was joking ("difficult class like Sorc healer.")

 

Also, aren't you maining a Merc, merovejec?