Needing a couple tweeks!

[DarthSealth]

Sith Warriors class:-

 

Stop with the pointless utility points and give us something more worthwhile so it's an actual hard decision.

With possibility there to change a move like Force Choke to be more effective in very situational areas.

*(Idea)*

Reduces cooldown on Force Choke by 15 seconds additionally Force Choke can be used on up to 5 weak or normal enemies.

 

Fury :-

Change the animation for force crush to resemble the KOTOR TSL force crush. Because everyone loves the animation and the sound of bones crunching.

 

Giving Fury marauders a upgraded smash that deals more damage for the AOE capability.

 

Needs less focus on Raging Burst keep the idea of Dominate and Destruction.

But change Furious Rage instead of a 15% damage increase to Raging Burst or Smash make it so Bloodthirst + Force Crush makes your next Furious Strike a unstoppable critical hit.

 

Carnage :-

The idea of renaming an ability is beyond me.

Devastating Blast should have never replaced Force Scream. Force Scream should be tied to the class of Sith Warrior. Devastating Blast should have been a separate ability similar to Raging Burst.

It's as if Carnage is missing two ability as of two abilities being renamed.

Fury has five abilities:- Force Crush, Raging Burst, Force Scream, Obliterate and Furious Strike.

Annihilation has five abilities:- Rapture, Annihilate, Deadly Sabers, Force Scream and Force Rend.

Carnage has four including two renames. It needs force scream given back.

Massacre needs a increase in Damage or a less rage consumed instead of three make it one or two.

 

Annihilation:-

Seems in a very good place.

I can't fault anything about this spec.

Edited April 24, 2017 by DarthSealth

[Bonzenaattori]

Needs less focus on Raging Burst?

Do you even play marauder?

[DarthSealth]

Needs less focus on Raging Burst?

Do you even play marauder?

 

Of course I wouldn't speculate otherwise. I have two in fact one Fury and one Carnage although I changed my Carnage to Annihilation after 2.0 and played the spec until 3.0 I found the spec very lacklustre maybe because it was a slow graduate combat compared to what I was use to.

 

My very first class was my Fury build and still to this day is my favourite spec and class although I remember them nerfing smash and considering the focus applied to that, raging burst and scream. Should indeed have a upgraded smash in the see able future and the awesome animation of KOTOR 2 Force Crush returned with the sound of bones crunching.

 

But I don't wanna copy what I wrote in my request again.

I'd say Carnage needs the most work doing.

 

Just wondering if you was be sarcastic because by the sounds of it you seem to be a role player 🤔

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Sith Warriors class:-

 

Stop with the pointless utility points and give us something more worthwhile so it's an actual hard decision.

With possibility there to change a move like Force Choke to be more effective in very situational areas.

*(Idea)*

Reduces cooldown on Force Choke by 15 seconds additionally Force Choke can be used on up to 5 weak or normal enemies.

 

Carnage :-

The idea of renaming an ability is beyond me.

Devastating Blast should have never replaced Force Scream. Force Scream should be tied to the class of Sith Warrior. Devastating Blast should have been a separate ability similar to Raging Burst.

It's as if Carnage is missing two ability as of two abilities being renamed.

Fury has five abilities:- Force Crush, Raging Burst, Force Scream, Obliterate and Furious Strike.

Annihilation has five abilities:- Rapture, Annihilate, Deadly Sabers, Force Scream and Force Rend.

Carnage has four including two renames. It needs force scream given back.

Massacre needs a increase in Damage or a less rage consumed instead of three make it one or two.

 

We do have some silly utility choices that no ones really ever gonna use [the force choke one being a good example] but all specs have those kinds of utilties, not very practical.

 

Truth is though, a lot of our utiltity 'choices' are almost mandatory [with the exception of certain specific instances where one might be very useful for a certain boss or mission.]

 

Nonnegotiables [more or less] -

Brazen

Defensive Roll

Brooding [PVE]

Cloak of Carnage [PVE]

Cloak of Rage [PVE]

Inexorable[PVP]

Relentless [PVP ,even in PVE it's extremely useful a good amount of time not only foe the speed but also for the defensive boost], unbound [PVP, your doomed without it, you might as well just take a nap, perhaps less so for Fury spec]

Thirst for Rage [it wont make or break you, but it definately can help, a few extra seconds might make the difference between a clear or a wipe]

Ruthless Agressor [PVP].

 

You could get away with not taking cloak of carnage, but your eating into your defensive which for a class with no self-heals isn't the best idea. And cloak of rage might not be necessary under ideal conditions [dummy parse], but in live fights your rotation will definately get off track from force moves/mechanics/stuns and simple mistakes. Cloak of Rage helps with overcoming some mistakes and getting the rotation back on track faster.

 

Far as your spec idea changes, speaking only about Carnage, I had no issue with them swapping out Force Scream for Devistating Blast. Having both I don't think would reflect well on a class that is so devoted to the martial aspects of battle. Multiple Force powers doing damage [not from a lightsaber hit] are more in keeping with Assassins/Sorcs [inquisitors] in my opinion. I didn't find force scream any more of less appealing than devistating blast, but that's just a personal opinion.

 

As of 5.0 we already got another attack [Gore]thrown into the mix that made resource management more difficult than it had been for Carnage before, a second force attack [force scream] would be too much.

Stupid as hell to change the "gore" window to ferocity and than name the new attack "Gore" that made no sense. I am rather fond of Gore now though even though it made resource management harder. The last thing a spec that's so fast from Alacrity from Beserk needs is more ability bloat.

 

Massacre rage cost is reduced if used during Beserk to only one rage. That is it so spammable accounts for it's damage range, if you could spam 15k massacres during a beserk window it;d be alot and even not during window, with increased damage like that it would increase sustained damage ALOT. You can already do 13-14k with massacres on crits in the ferocity window if you're geared well enough, which is why you use it as the 4th and last attack in Beserk ferocity windows if you're going for the 4 attack windows.

 

Personally I think Carnage is in a great place over all, although as a pure DPS class I think it's place on the DPS chart [And annihilation's as well] should be higher like it was in 4.0. I'd include Sniper in that as well as it's the only other 'pure DPS class' in the game, but with it newly gotten heals I don't think it meets that definition anymore. Other than that I really have no complaints about carnage in terms of overall performance. There are other class specs in the game far worse off and that need attention [PT defensives, DPS Sorc DPS, Jugg mobility and escape].

Edited May 3, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Ottoattack]

For carnage I do t think the massacre needs a damage buff. The hinder though is useless considering it's duration. Just remove hinder and make massacre rebuff target increasing melee damage by 5%.

 

For carnage as well I hate that dual saber throw is a resource builder. It's not rotational and does not fit . It would be much neatier if barrage builds three rage.

 

Fury, it is bloated. In my opinion concentrated sllice should be removed and its damage redistributesded among other skills. While making raging burst debuff the target with 5% bonus force damage. This is more of wish

 

Annhilation needs slightly higher damage. Like 2-3%.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Ottoattack

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

For carnage I do t think the massacre needs a damage buff. The hinder though is useless considering it's duration. Just remove hinder and make massacre rebuff target increasing melee damage by 5%.

 

For carnage as well I hate that dual saber throw is a resource builder. It's not rotational and does not fit . It would be much neatier if barrage builds three rage.

 

Fury, it is bloated. In my opinion concentrated sllice should be removed and its damage redistributesded among other skills. While making raging burst debuff the target with 5% bonus force damage. This is more of wish

 

Annhilation needs slightly higher damage. Like 2-3%.

 

Just a couple of corrections, you were talking about 3 different specs at once which can be confusing with a detail or two.

 

The hinder effect isn't on massacre, it's on gore [and I agree with you, given its minuscule duration you might as well not even have it at all]. Massacre already has a buff related to it's use that's vital to the spec, it grants a 6 second buff giving an additional 30% chance to your ataru form being triggered granting a free ataru form strike. This is very important for sustained damage output and you want to keep this buff in effect as seamlessly as possible. Now, it could be argued that a permanent 5% melee damage increase would more than make up for the loss of the ataru form strike chances, I'm not very good with numbers and averages over time, that would have to be considered of course. I can't imagine that would not be a superior DPS buff overall and as such, I certainly wouldn't have any objection to that! heh

 

Regarding duel saber throw, while it is a resource builder, it is very much rotational, and fits perfectly when employing clipping into ferocity windows. Not clipping it into ferocity windows [as well as Viscous throw] is a DPS loss. You pretty much always want to be clipping the lightsaber throws into your ferocity windows.

 

Regarding Annihilation. It does not need a damage buff, it is has the highest potential damage output of all the specs and if any spec should receive a 2-3% damage increase it should be Fury as it trails well behind the other two specs [based on Bant's [successor] DPS chart].

 

Regarding Fury, I do not feel I have enough experience with it to speak one way or another, as you clearly have more experience than I with it, your in a much better position to judge it's needs.

Edited May 4, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Ottoattack]

Just a couple of corrections, you were talking about 3 different specs at once which can be confusing with a detail or two.

 

The hinder effect isn't on massacre, it's on gore [and I agree with you, given its minuscule duration you might as well not even have it at all]. Massacre already has a buff related to it's use that's vital to the spec, it grants a 6 second buff giving an additional 30% chance to your ataru form being triggered granting a free ataru form strike. This is very important for sustained damage output and you want to keep this buff in effect as seamlessly as possible. Now, it could be argued that a permanent 5% melee damage increase would more than make up for the loss of the ataru form strike chances, I'm not very good with numbers and averages over time, that would have to be considered of course. I can't imagine that would not be a superior DPS buff overall and as such, I certainly wouldn't have any objection to that! heh

 

Regarding duel saber throw, while it is a resource builder, it is very much rotational, and fits perfectly when employing clipping into ferocity windows. Not clipping it into ferocity windows [as well as Viscous throw] is a DPS loss. You pretty much always want to be clipping the lightsaber throws into your ferocity windows.

 

Regarding Annihilation. It does not need a damage buff, it is has the highest potential damage output of all the specs and if any spec should receive a 2-3% damage increase it should be Fury as it trails well behind the other two specs [based on Bant's [successor] DPS chart].

 

Regarding Fury, I do not feel I have enough experience with it to speak one way or another, as you clearly have more experience than I with it, your in a much better position to judge it's needs.

 

I did mean gore not massacre. I have late sentinel so I confused the Mara skill names

 

I am aware of the clipping. The skill itself doesn't deal much damage. If I remember correctly PvE elites and up have 30% damage reduction. If you factor in armor debuff it's clipping a skill with a base around 3k damage is insignificant in PvE at best and nearly useless in PvP. The 3 rage paired with melee damage debuff should provide better dps if no one else is putting the debuff and is much less gimmicky. Should result around Samar damage without, since you should Ben using massacre one more time every 12-15 gcd.

 

Annihilation, it is supposely number 4 currently after ruffian, IO and engi. I don't see 2-3% extra damage being out reaching.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I did mean gore not massacre. I have late sentinel so I confused the Mara skill names

 

I am aware of the clipping. The skill itself doesn't deal much damage. If I remember correctly PvE elites and up have 30% damage reduction. If you factor in armor debuff it's clipping a skill with a base around 3k damage is insignificant in PvE at best and nearly useless in PvP. The 3 rage paired with melee damage debuff should provide better dps if no one else is putting the debuff and is much less gimmicky. Should result around Samar damage without, since you should Ben using massacre one more time every 12-15 gcd.

 

 

Annihilation, it is supposely number 4 currently after ruffian, IO and engi. I don't see 2-3% extra damage being out reaching.

 

Yeah, Dual Saber throw doesn't do all that much damage, but if you clip it into the ferocity window you can still get a 10-11k hit from it which is more damage than if you used it outside of the window. Not using it inside a ferocity window is a DPS loss though.

 

Far as Anni, I'm simply saying that they are not more deserving of a DPS buff than the other two specs. Fury certainly deserves it more than Anni.

 

Marauders as a whole though, should have better DPS than ruffian or IO. It's a pure DPS class, without self heals. IO has insanely good DCDs, self heals, Heavy armor, CC up the yippi, and is a ranged class with better uptime than melee over all. Ruffian has self heals, stealth, and enough CC to choke a horse.

 

As Engineering is a spec of a pure DPS class they should be high on the chart, but given that they now have self heals and DCDs out the ***, I hardly consider them a pure dps class and is nothing more than a technicality. As they were prior to 5.0, they most certainly deserved to be in the highest DPS echelon.

 

4.0 had Marauders right. Some may disagree with me that pure DPS classes should have the best DPS in the game, but it is my opinion.

 

There should be amongst all classes a ratio of DPS to Heals to serve as a balancing out of damage out put and survivability. You can't DPS when you are dead. Heals keep you in the fight longer.

Edited May 5, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[AndoEyrune]

Lol, generalization of a "pure dps class" in 2017.

[DarthSealth]

Personally I favour towards Fury(Main) I love that bloated feel of you got lots of abilities to use at your disposal although I get a thrill out Carnage(Alt) when I do play with it although I do find a lack of rage a problem like It's a shame Berzerk doesn't generate rage so I end up spending a point on the bloodthirst generates 12.

 

That being said I am quite happy with both being left alone rather that then them messing things up although I would really a better choke and the force crush animation we all know of and became to love.

 

Anyways I love the feedback it's got I am just the type who loves the idea of more power than less especially considering Marauders should be hands down the best when it comes down to dps as it is the only class that is a through and through dps spec no hybrid Healer/DPS or Tank/DPS.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Personally I favour towards Fury(Main) I love that bloated feel of you got lots of abilities to use at your disposal although I get a thrill out Carnage(Alt) when I do play with it although I do find a lack of rage a problem like It's a shame Berzerk doesn't generate rage so I end up spending a point on the bloodthirst generates 12.

 

That being said I am quite happy with both being left alone rather that then them messing things up although I would really a better choke and the force crush animation we all know of and became to love.

 

Anyways I love the feedback it's got I am just the type who loves the idea of more power than less especially considering Marauders should be hands down the best when it comes down to dps as it is the only class that is a through and through dps spec no hybrid Healer/DPS or Tank/DPS.

 

I'm not a big fan of Fury, but I suspect that is only because I was Carnage first and everything else seems so slow compared to it! As you played Carnage too I'm sure ya know what I mean!

 

It's a very interesting spec though, and there is a lot about it I do really like, especially for PVP. The passive anti-cc attributes it brings to the class are unique and give it a personality all it's own and certainly are a great asset in PVP with the all the CC that get's thrown around like crazy. Carnage really isn't very good in that regard, we're pretty easily controlled which is a very bad thing for a spec that's so dependent on maximizing it's burst window, so we can be easily shut down.

 

The rage issue was a problem, I know exactly what you mean. Even in PVE it's an issue. In PVE the proper rotation can insure that you have sufficient rage to maximize your burst window and for spamming massacre in between windows to keep your sustained damage humming, but the rotation isn't forgiving of mistakes and that will set you off kilter until you get the rotation back in proper sync. Unfortunately there's only so much you can do about mechanics and forced down time you just have to eat. But, wherein you are able to maintain a proper rotation the rage management is sustainable. It took me a while to figure out how to overcome the rage problems that were caused by the addition of the Gore attack [which I have subsequently come to love]. Playing carnage in PVP requires taking the Inexorable utility to help with the rage management issues.

 

Fury is no slouch in the burst department either, and another upside to that spec is that it's rotation is more forgiving and malleable which can be a great asset in and of itself. Having an extra leap to boot is great for mobility and makes Fury a stand alone melee spec for dealing with Snipers, of which it can't really be beat in keeping snipers on their toes in addition to its anti-cc passives. I really envy Fury in that regard.

 

Regarding your comments about Marauders being the most deserving of the highest DPS in the game, I could not agree more with you. 4.0 Had it right for the DPS pecking order for Marauders, although Fury lagged behind.

 

I use to include Snipers in that belief as they had been fellow pure DPS, but I cannot in good conscience continue to do so in light of the changes Snipers received in 5.0. I firmly believe that potential DPS output should share some sort of ratio to the level of self healing a spec has. The more self healing a spec has the less dps potential they should possess based on some fair balanced ratio. [The exacts of such a ratio I would not venture to suggest as I don't have the mathematical mind for such things].

 

Marauders have excellent DCDs, I don't think that could be in despite, but the fact that they have no self-healing is a mitigating factor, and is certainly a disadvantage in PVP where pretty much every enemy a Marauder has will have some self healing. For fairness sake, I do recognize that Annihilation does have some minor self heals. My thought on that is, however, they are incredibly small and completely dependent on being actively in combat. If one must be in combat than they must have an enemy, and if one must have an enemy to gain any heals, you really can't call that 'self-heals' because it requires someone be involved other than one's self! Least that's how I see it. Even still, that is only one spec out of three.

 

Given that Snipers have twice the DCDs we do and have self-healing, I would hardly consider that a "pure DPS class". The have some of the highest DPS in the game [higher than ours], they are tanky as hell, and possess self heals. I'd say that qualifies them as a walking trinity, not unlike mercs. As OP as mercs are, vs melee I consider Snipers [Engineering most of all, Marksman isn't much of that type of 'offender' as at least their DPS is significantly lower] even worse than Mercs.

 

I'd take much less offense to it if they would at least stop calling them a Pure DPS class, which in practice they are clearly not. They are anything but a 'glass canon'.

Edited May 17, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Gyronamics]

Lol, generalization of a "pure dps class" in 2017.

 

I'm pretty sure the #1 requirement for someone playing a dps role is dps.

 

Except fleet pickup groups where dps with taunt is considered acceptable.

 

Dps with heals I've yet to hear anyone specify as important.

[Drake_Averrod]

Diclaimer: difficulty wise I only do master uprisings, HM Fps and HM OpS. Did some NiM only in the past. For PVP I only do regs.

 

I currently do not think that we need a defensive buff. In the content that I do, I am happy with what we have. While not making us unkillable it makes us live long enough to kill some of them. When we have a healer we are truly dangerous. In short: it feels sufficient for group and solo play.

 

If I would add a true self heal then I would replace interloper or make "hidden advance/Impsidename" a passive that is granted at some higher level and add a new utility to legendary that heals 10% (?) of max HP on use of "blade blitz/Impsidename". This would also create a synergy with the other legendary utility reducing the CD. At the same time rotationally dropping aggro would be rewarded with a slight dps increase. (unless you need camouflage for something else that is, but that would be like it is now). And you could blitz away, camouflage and then attack with a buffed attack from "stealth". To make this truly useful though force leap should be changed to a force attack.

 

Generally though my problem with our class is not how it performs compared to other classes but how the differwnt speccs perform compared to each other. Right now we have some speccs perfoming badly to the point of not worth playing in pve and weak in pvp.

 

Watchman/Anihilation: I used to play combat before 3.0 but now mostly prefer this specc. Since 5.0 I am also exclusively playing it in regs pvp. It has selfheals and aoe heals which help your group. It is a dot specc though and dps is droping as soon as you hit a target switching situation. Thus it also suffers from low burst. If you want something "small" dead fast, this is not the specc to look for. I like the selfheals and dotspread in pvp though even if it won't kill anyone it creates pressure (and fake better numbers on the leaderboards if that should be your concern).

 

Concentration/Fury: Absolutely not my favourite specc. I used to play it in pvp in 3.X times. I find it feels sluggish and I also don't like the rotation. It still performs strongly in pvp though as it has very good burst and a Stun/movement immunity as well as a second leap with no range restriction. In PVE though it is by far the weakest specc and there is really no reason past really enjoying it to play it, in that environment.

 

Combat/Carnage: This was the first specc I ever played. I enjoyed it greatly until the end of 2.X where my dummy damage used to be higher in watchman so I kinda began to switch when it mattered. I absolutely despised the 3.0 and after combat/Carnage changes though. The changes made, removed the fun of the specc for me. Yet Combat turned out to be the Sent/Mara specc that is "jack of all trades". Combat/Carnage has great AOE, great Burst and good sustain. Combat/Carnage does really good in all scenarios that don't generally punish melees.

 

And there in lies my gripe. Combat/carnages is too flexible, too good in every situation compared to the other two. Combat/carnage can simply perform too well in all fights. Instead of asking yourself what to play in pve for a specific boss you might aswell play combat/carnage. Because neither Watchman or Concentration will give you any meaningful better results.

 

Now I do not want to nerf combat in its current form so I would propose the following changes:

 

Combat: leave it at is.

 

Watchman: add a passive (or add to a passive) that your melee damage to a target affected by your overload saber is increased by X% this would increase single target damage of the watchman specc, help with bursting down adds and improve the specc in pvp.

 

Concentration: Since increasing burst would negatively impact PVP, I would suggest to atleast increase the sustain by sligthly raising some passives like increasing the energy damge on slash.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Drake_Averrod

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Diclaimer: difficulty wise I only do master uprisings, HM Fps and HM OpS. Did some NiM only in the past. For PVP I only do regs.

 

I currently do not think that we need a defensive buff. In the content that I do, I am happy with what we have. While not making us unkillable it makes us live long enough to kill some of them. When we have a healer we are truly dangerous. In short: it feels sufficient for group and solo play.

 

If I would add a true self heal then I would replace interloper or make "hidden advance/Impsidename" a passive that is granted at some higher level and add a new utility to legendary that heals 10% (?) of max HP on use of "blade blitz/Impsidename". This would also create a synergy with the other legendary utility reducing the CD. At the same time rotationally dropping aggro would be rewarded with a slight dps increase. (unless you need camouflage for something else that is, but that would be like it is now). And you could blitz away, camouflage and then attack with a buffed attack from "stealth". To make this truly useful though force leap should be changed to a force attack.

 

Generally though my problem with our class is not how it performs compared to other classes but how the differwnt speccs perform compared to each other. Right now we have some speccs perfoming badly to the point of not worth playing in pve and weak in pvp.

 

Watchman/Anihilation: I used to play combat before 3.0 but now mostly prefer this specc. Since 5.0 I am also exclusively playing it in regs pvp. It has selfheals and aoe heals which help your group. It is a dot specc though and dps is droping as soon as you hit a target switching situation. Thus it also suffers from low burst. If you want something "small" dead fast, this is not the specc to look for. I like the selfheals and dotspread in pvp though even if it won't kill anyone it creates pressure (and fake better numbers on the leaderboards if that should be your concern).

 

Concentration/Fury: Absolutely not my favourite specc. I used to play it in pvp in 3.X times. I find it feels sluggish and I also don't like the rotation. It still performs strongly in pvp though as it has very good burst and a Stun/movement immunity as well as a second leap with no range restriction. In PVE though it is by far the weakest specc and there is really no reason past really enjoying it to play it, in that environment.

 

Combat/Carnage: This was the first specc I ever played. I enjoyed it greatly until the end of 2.X where my dummy damage used to be higher in watchman so I kinda began to switch when it mattered. I absolutely despised the 3.0 and after combat/Carnage changes though. The changes made, removed the fun of the specc for me. Yet Combat turned out to be the Sent/Mara specc that is "jack of all trades". Combat/Carnage has great AOE, great Burst and good sustain. Combat/Carnage does really good in all scenarios that don't generally punish melees.

 

And there in lies my gripe. Combat/carnages is too flexible, too good in every situation compared to the other two. Combat/carnage can simply perform too well in all fights. Instead of asking yourself what to play in pve for a specific boss you might aswell play combat/carnage. Because neither Watchman or Concentration will give you any meaningful better results.

 

Now I do not want to nerf combat in its current form so I would propose the following changes:

 

Combat: leave it at is.

 

Watchman: add a passive (or add to a passive) that your melee damage to a target affected by your overload saber is increased by X% this would increase single target damage of the watchman specc, help with bursting down adds and improve the specc in pvp.

 

Concentration: Since increasing burst would negatively impact PVP, I would suggest to atleast increase the sustain by sligthly raising some passives like increasing the energy damge on slash.

 

I think you made a fairly accurate appraisal of the specs, and I tend to agree with most of what you said, you were quite fair in most of your judgements.

 

My only point of contention is your appraisal of Annihilation in PVE. Annihilation does not need a DPS buff. It has the highest DPS of all the specs as it is and it excells at most boss fights where uptime is decent and even where uptime is less ideal, Anni still excells more than the other two specs wherein there is forced downtime due to mechanics and such.

 

Wherein Carnage and Fury are forced to move due to such mechanics, their damage stops entirely for the duration of that downtime, which is not the case with Annhiliation which can leave DoTs ticking on the boss that are still doing damage even when the Anni user is out of range during that downtime. While it's rotation is complex it is far more maliable and does not have a strict specific rotation like Carnage's rotation. Carnage's rotation is very unforgiving of mistakes and can lead to big dps loses when they occur. Their burst window must be maximized and filled with very specific attacks if it is not to result on a DPS loss.

 

In theory Carnage's rotation is rather simple, it is hard to remember or execute under ideal circumstances, but ideal circumstances seldom exist in live fights. This is the reason for is decent sustained damage, without it DPS loses due to mechanics or mistakes in the ferocity window which will occur from time to time in live fights no matter what you do, would leave the spec in a situation where only under perfect rotation performance could it be effective and viable. It's increased speed is both it's greatest asset and it's biggest potential pitfall. Things are fluid in fights and things can change at the drop of the hat and due to that increased speed the carnage player has to be able to react to changes that much faster if they are not to see their rotation spiral out of control due to hesitation. APMs for the spec are the highest in the game, slow downs result in DPS losses, sometimes significant losses, and in that respect the rotation isn't always so easy. The other specs don't need to same kind of reaction speed it does.

 

Personally, I think 4.0 had it right with respect to Marauders and their place on the DPS chart

 

Annihilation was Rank 1 and Carnage was Rank 2.

 

I am a firm believer in the notion that pure DPS classes should do the best DPS in the game. Prior to 5.0 I included Snipers in that bracket as well, but with their defensive buffs and self healing, I hardly consider them a pure DPS class any longer. A pure DPS class should not have self heals. I recognize that Annihilation has some minor heals related to their beserk usage, but I hardly consider them self heals as they require being actively in combat and thus requiring more than just the "self" in order to receive heals. If you need anyone else to be involved, that's not really self healing! heh Besides, the heals are so minor they are hardly comparable to the self heals of other classes. Even still, I have never really liked the notion of even Annihilation have those small heals.

Furthermore, that Anni does have some potential for heals, that only serves as a counter argument for a DPS increase. In boss fights, Annihilation has the capacity to out DPS carnage without question. It is the ideal spec for boss fights in many instances. With decent uptime on a Boss and proper use of DoTs keeping them as seemless as possible Annhilation should be beating out Carnage on equal terms.

 

We see the havok being rought by Mercs and Snipers in PVP and their OP status which is due to the fact that the have very high DPS in addition to sizeable self heals. DPS healing themself is a hybridization which causes class imbalances [skank tanks are guilty of this too]. When you have some high DPS classes with strong self heals and others with small self heals or no self heals at all, you create imbalances in the classes, because it is inherently favoring the survival of some over others supossedly in the same role.

 

I'm by no means calling for a removal of Annihiliations heals. That is part of what they are and what they always have been. In your appraisal of Carnage's burst capacity and it's very decent sustained damage making it "too flexible, too good in every situation compared to the other two.", you are not taking into consideration what other abilties the other specs have that Carnage does not. In the case of Annihilation that being the heals they have which obviously make them have a certain advantage over carnage in terms of survivability [ the you can't DPS when your dead idea] as well as possessing a formidable dot spread which is in addition to their very strong AOE damage with sweeping slash, making them even stronger in dealing with Adds which exist in all areas of PVE. Their DoT spread in PVP is even more effectual in terms of increasing overall damage and adding continual pressure, which while not very damaging none the less add up and needs to be healed through.

These sorts of things are mitigating factors I feel. You have some extras in other areas, and we have some extras in others, so that balances things out some.

 

Fury's "extra area of strength' compared to Carnage and Annihilation unfortunately is only seen in PVP wherein their anti CC passives give them a stronger position in dealing with the insane amount of CCs that's are thrown around in PVP and that's a big thing when it comes to survivalability. Their added leap that they can use even against snipers speaks for itself. As a Carnage marauder, I really envy those strengths they have in PVP, they must be very fun to play with. The offset to this for them comes at the price of DPS. They do not possess the levels of DPS potential that Annihilation and Carnage do. If any spec deserves a small DPS increase it's Fury as they have lagged considerably behind Annihilation and Carnage for a long time.

 

 

Where we differ is mostly just in personal opinion. Overall, I really liked your post, was very informative and fair minded.

Edited May 21, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Drake_Averrod]

[...]

 

I agree that our differences mostly lie in different "design philosophy" and not on a need to nerf/buff basis. When I advocate a buff for Watchman though I would be willing to compensate it with a nerf in other abbilities. Personally as I like switching speccs for specific fights I would like the speccs to be more tailored to specific fights. Since that will probably not find a majority however, I would then rather go the route to try to make every specc equaly useful instead.

 

Watchman is currently the highest parsing Sent/Mara specc. However I still believe that Combat/Carnage is the specc that is least punshed by mechanics, due to its strength in various fields. I would say the fights with good uptime and little target switching are fewer than the ones that require to do so. Also in situations of little uptime (because of AOE or other mechanics) I find that being able to have the full monster burst of carange off the CD is more worthwile than having some dots tick on the boss (allthough admitedly I can not verify this statement with numbers) when running out of AOE or hiding from mechanics. The most dummy like ops fight for me is Nefra (no matter what mode) and you could easily beat that thing with 4 carnage/combat marauders in NiM. Except to move out of droid explosion circles you would not have to move there, yet there is no reason to bring any Anni/Watchman.

 

Other fights however greatly penalize Watchman/Anni and greatly favour Combat/Carnage. And therin lies my perceived problem. The fights where Anni/Watch are preferable to Comabt/carnage are from my experience less frequent than the ones where combat/carnage provide larger benefit. My suggestion to give watchman a buff was just a simple solution to tackle this problem. I would be fine with nerfs in one abbility and buffs in others if Watchman would then be less penalized in target switching situations. Currently (imo) as it stand in PVE, you are a bigger asset to your group as a carnage/combat than anything else (Watchman group heal is nice but at the end of the day its not your job to heal people).

 

I advocated a buff for watchman as I wanted to make it shine more than combat/carnage in the fights where Anni/Watch should shine but combat/carnage is currently way more than sufficient. Of course I would be also ok with a redesign of the dps abbilities to make the dot specc more desirable in target switching situations as long as watchman stays on top for single target damage.

 

Again I do not want to touch combat/carnage. Leave them where they are. They are solid and strong.

 

I also think noone can be against a PVE sustain buff that doesn't negatively impact PVP too much for Concentration/Fury. The specc while not my favourite needs some love so it isn't the "unneeded stepchild" in Ops any longer.

 

That all being said I also agree with your assessment of the 4.0 DPS ranking. (except for Carnage combat again being too good at everything and Watchman suffering in some situations)

 

TLDR: Buff Concentration/Fury for PVE sustain. Make Watchman/annihilation less punished by target switching.

 

p.s.: It is quite possible that I simply suck at Watchman burst situations but it doesn't feel like it. Dot spread is nice but in most situations stuff doesn't live long enough especially with Juggs or Snipers in your group. Single target my highest DPS is with Watchman. When I run into target swapping then I do waaay better in combat. I simply find there are way too many target swapping situations in ops.

 

EDIT: Multiple edits to increase understanding as I am not a native english speaker.

 

EDIT2: I don't know if a return to the often hailed rotation of 2.10 would fix my issues as I don't remember it all that well ( back then I still was mostly playing Combat with my precision strike and cauterize available for all speccs) I remember that the cauterize dot was shorter than the abbilities CD however and that there was a RNG mechanic on slash to reset it which I did not like. I prefer RNG to a minimum in rotations.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Drake_Averrod

[DarthSealth]

I'm not a big fan of Fury, but I suspect that is only because I was Carnage first and everything else seems so slow compared to it! As you played Carnage too I'm sure ya know what I mean!

 

It's a very interesting spec though, and there is a lot about it I do really like, especially for PVP. The passive anti-cc attributes it brings to the class are unique and give it a personality all it's own and certainly are a great asset in PVP with the all the CC that get's thrown around like crazy. Carnage really isn't very good in that regard, we're pretty easily controlled which is a very bad thing for a spec that's so dependent on maximizing it's burst window, so we can be easily shut down.

 

The rage issue was a problem, I know exactly what you mean. Even in PVE it's an issue. In PVE the proper rotation can insure that you have sufficient rage to maximize your burst window and for spamming massacre in between windows to keep your sustained damage humming, but the rotation isn't forgiving of mistakes and that will set you off kilter until you get the rotation back in proper sync. Unfortunately there's only so much you can do about mechanics and forced down time you just have to eat. But, wherein you are able to maintain a proper rotation the rage management is sustainable. It took me a while to figure out how to overcome the rage problems that were caused by the addition of the Gore attack [which I have subsequently come to love]. Playing carnage in PVP requires taking the Inexorable utility to help with the rage management issues.

 

Fury is no slouch in the burst department either, and another upside to that spec is that it's rotation is more forgiving and malleable which can be a great asset in and of itself. Having an extra leap to boot is great for mobility and makes Fury a stand alone melee spec for dealing with Snipers, of which it can't really be beat in keeping snipers on their toes in addition to its anti-cc passives. I really envy Fury in that regard.

 

Regarding your comments about Marauders being the most deserving of the highest DPS in the game, I could not agree more with you. 4.0 Had it right for the DPS pecking order for Marauders, although Fury lagged behind.

 

I use to include Snipers in that belief as they had been fellow pure DPS, but I cannot in good conscience continue to do so in light of the changes Snipers received in 5.0. I firmly believe that potential DPS output should share some sort of ratio to the level of self healing a spec has. The more self healing a spec has the less dps potential they should possess based on some fair balanced ratio. [The exacts of such a ratio I would not venture to suggest as I don't have the mathematical mind for such things].

 

Marauders have excellent DCDs, I don't think that could be in despite, but the fact that they have no self-healing is a mitigating factor, and is certainly a disadvantage in PVP where pretty much every enemy a Marauder has will have some self healing. For fairness sake, I do recognize that Annihilation does have some minor self heals. My thought on that is, however, they are incredibly small and completely dependent on being actively in combat. If one must be in combat than they must have an enemy, and if one must have an enemy to gain any heals, you really can't call that 'self-heals' because it requires someone be involved other than one's self! Least that's how I see it. Even still, that is only one spec out of three.

 

Given that Snipers have twice the DCDs we do and have self-healing, I would hardly consider that a "pure DPS class". The have some of the highest DPS in the game [higher than ours], they are tanky as hell, and possess self heals. I'd say that qualifies them as a walking trinity, not unlike mercs. As OP as mercs are, vs melee I consider Snipers [Engineering most of all, Marksman isn't much of that type of 'offender' as at least their DPS is significantly lower] even worse than Mercs.

 

I'd take much less offense to it if they would at least stop calling them a Pure DPS class, which in practice they are clearly not. They are anything but a 'glass canon'.

 

The thing you said about carnage being a fastest spec made me giggle because I think its the most fast fun thrilling spec I remember all them patches ago when they nerfed carnage and I got so annoyed I switched to Anni for a patch or two god it felt god damn awful I think its even more slow than fury but then again it isn't my go to spec or anything so meh all I can say is I love my maras and carnage was my first toon which after getting nerfed I changed to Anni then to Fury which inturn has became my main and actually a little while back around the DVL event I got curious about trying Carnage again but out of the utter most respect for my main/Fury I didn't want to respec so I created a new toon for that event besides who doesn't love the Sith warrior class story... Strutting around like vader xD

[Bird_of_Thunder]

The thing you said about carnage being a fastest spec made me giggle because I think its the most fast fun thrilling spec I remember all them patches ago when they nerfed carnage and I got so annoyed I switched to Anni for a patch or two god it felt gosh darn awful I think its even more slow than fury but then again it isn't my go to spec or anything so meh all I can say is I love my maras and carnage was my first toon which after getting nerfed I changed to Anni then to Fury which inturn has became my main and actually a little while back around the DVL event I got curious about trying Carnage again but out of the utter most respect for my main/Fury I didn't want to respec so I created a new toon for that event besides who doesn't love the Sith warrior class story... Strutting around like vader xD

 

idk about you but for me Annihilation feels faster than Fury just because of the DoTs I've gotta keep up in addition to Defensives and all that jazz. Annihilation and Fury are a lot slower but they're more survivable (Fury's CC immunity and Annihilation's minor but still existant self-heal) whereas Carnage has very high burst but virtually nothing in the bag minus Utilities. As a PvPer, Fury can gather some insane hits (check out the 37k crit thread somewhere in this subforum) and is by far the most reliable imo. I've spent some time playing around and respeccing with them in regs, and so far Fury seems like the best even though it's slow so I sorta see where you're coming from.

[Bird_of_Thunder]

Sith Warriors class:-

 

Stop with the pointless utility points and give us something more worthwhile so it's an actual hard decision.

With possibility there to change a move like Force Choke to be more effective in very situational areas.

*(Idea)*

Reduces cooldown on Force Choke by 15 seconds additionally Force Choke can be used on up to 5 weak or normal enemies.

 

Fury :-

Change the animation for force crush to resemble the KOTOR TSL force crush. Because everyone loves the animation and the sound of bones crunching.

 

Giving Fury marauders a upgraded smash that deals more damage for the AOE capability.

 

Needs less focus on Raging Burst keep the idea of Dominate and Destruction.

But change Furious Rage instead of a 15% damage increase to Raging Burst or Smash make it so Bloodthirst + Force Crush makes your next Furious Strike a unstoppable critical hit.

 

Carnage :-

The idea of renaming an ability is beyond me.

Devastating Blast should have never replaced Force Scream. Force Scream should be tied to the class of Sith Warrior. Devastating Blast should have been a separate ability similar to Raging Burst.

It's as if Carnage is missing two ability as of two abilities being renamed.

Fury has five abilities:- Force Crush, Raging Burst, Force Scream, Obliterate and Furious Strike.

Annihilation has five abilities:- Rapture, Annihilate, Deadly Sabers, Force Scream and Force Rend.

Carnage has four including two renames. It needs force scream given back.

Massacre needs a increase in Damage or a less rage consumed instead of three make it one or two.

 

Annihilation:-

Seems in a very good place.

I can't fault anything about this spec.

 

Okay, now on to the actual thread. I'll try to bring in my mediocre PvP experience and theorycrafting to this for anyone who (like me) will only do Ops for the gear.

 

Fury:

I think it's pretty good as is. Fury is in a solid spot Burst-wise (maybe not DPS) but hey, Mara has 2 other specs that kinda roll in PvE right now. Your change would essentially just make Furious Strike hit very hard off cascading power.

 

Annihilation:

Good as is. I do hate the DoT spread playstyle and liked the old Annihilation better (I mained it before I went Carnage), but it's a playstyle preference. The way Pulverize works makes it feel like it's more of a Carnage ability, and the healing mechanics leave a little to be desired, but again I can't say it's bad.

 

Carnage:

Honestly if Carnage had any CC mitigation whatsoever it'd be phenomenal. It doesn't, of course, but it still has ridiculously high damage potential if you line it up right, which is nice because high skill cap. As mentioned earlier, I think Pulverize would fit into this spec well.

 

Across the Board:

I think minor DPS adjustments are in order, across the board they'd help us out because we're really the only pure DPS class in the game right now.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

we're really the only pure DPS class in the game right now.

 

Preach on Brother!

 

=]

[DarthSealth]

First and foremost I want to thank you all for the good input of replies!

 

I still believe as a through and through DPS spec we should be the highest parsing.

 

As stated nothing needs to be done with Annihilation for the reason that it's if not the best out of the whole tree in DPS without including the self heals as a little tap on the back bonus.

 

Carnage and Fury need attention as honestly the downtime in these specs are really punishing as I personally think from a point of view neither have self heals which in turn should count towards extra dmg.

 

Which makes me believe the two should be the higher parsing of the trio because of the absence of the self heal period.

 

I know some will have to agree to disagree.

Before anyone thinks I want nerfs I certainly don't I love the idea of improving on what you got like a PC build.

I am dead against balance/nerfing as all classes should be different in almost every way except for their polar opposites but to have (example) Immortal in DPS bonus gear hit harder than me is a kick in the teeth.

Edited July 31, 2017 by DarthSealth

[Threjyan]

First and foremost I want to thank you all for the good input of replies!

 

I still believe as a through and through DPS spec we should be the highest parsing.

 

As stated nothing needs to be done with Annihilation for the reason that it's if not the best out of the whole tree in DPS without including the self heals as a little tap on the back bonus.

 

Carnage and Fury need attention as honestly the downtime in these specs are really punishing as I personally think from a point of view neither have self heals which in turn should count towards extra dmg.

 

Which makes me believe the two should be the higher parsing of the trio because of the absence of the self heal period.

 

I know some will have to agree to disagree.

Before anyone thinks I want nerfs I certainly don't I love the idea of improving on what you got like a PC build.

I am dead against balance/nerfing as all classes should be different in almost every way except for their polar opposites but to have (example) Immortal in DPS bonus gear hit harder than me is a kick in the teeth.

 

 

 

i have a few questions in reguarding your post :

 

why should maras/sents be on top of the dps chain?

 

have u seen the posts in the past weeks where BW explained their meta for classes?

 

so u want a burst class doing more dps then a dot class?

 

im sorry but your post seems u are completly out of tune with whats being accepted by the overall of the comunity and explained by BW.

[Threjyan]

 

Which makes me believe the two should be the higher parsing of the trio because of the absence of the self heal period.

 

in any case if BW stay loyal to their meta in 5.4 you will get: Anni>Fury>Carnage

 

but your justification kinda make me smile as to justify why your choices.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Threjyan

[Equeliber]

First and foremost I want to thank you all for the good input of replies!

 

I still believe as a through and through DPS spec we should be the highest parsing.

 

As stated nothing needs to be done with Annihilation for the reason that it's if not the best out of the whole tree in DPS without including the self heals as a little tap on the back bonus.

 

Carnage and Fury need attention as honestly the downtime in these specs are really punishing as I personally think from a point of view neither have self heals which in turn should count towards extra dmg.

 

Which makes me believe the two should be the higher parsing of the trio because of the absence of the self heal period.

 

I know some will have to agree to disagree.

Before anyone thinks I want nerfs I certainly don't I love the idea of improving on what you got like a PC build.

I am dead against balance/nerfing as all classes should be different in almost every way except for their polar opposites but to have (example) Immortal in DPS bonus gear hit harder than me is a kick in the teeth.

 

Self heals of Anni are almost non-existent. The extra defenses Carnage has pretty much covers that... In no way that alone should make it do less DPS that Carnage/Fury.

 

Primary thing about Annihilation is that it's a DoT spec. And that alone makes it so it MUST be higher than Fury and Carnage. In all MMOs it is accepted that DoT specs should parse higher than Burst specs.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

First and foremost I want to thank you all for the good input of replies!

 

I still believe as a through and through DPS spec we should be the highest parsing.

 

As stated nothing needs to be done with Annihilation for the reason that it's if not the best out of the whole tree in DPS without including the self heals as a little tap on the back bonus.

 

Carnage and Fury need attention as honestly the downtime in these specs are really punishing as I personally think from a point of view neither have self heals which in turn should count towards extra dmg.

 

Which makes me believe the two should be the higher parsing of the trio because of the absence of the self heal period.

 

I know some will have to agree to disagree.

Before anyone thinks I want nerfs I certainly don't I love the idea of improving on what you got like a PC build.

I am dead against balance/nerfing as all classes should be different in almost every way except for their polar opposites but to have (example) Immortal in DPS bonus gear hit harder than me is a kick in the teeth.

 

 

I agree with all of this save for that I do think Anni should have the highest DPS of the three because it is a sustained/DOT spec. Although, to be fair, and counter to that argument, as has been sited before, there is very little difference between sustained and burst specs in this game, they do not follow the classic traditional molds.

The following is a quote from Bant whom I believe everyone on the forums is aquainted with, we base all our gearing and stat spreads based on his work.

 

There is very little difference between Burst and Sustained in SWTOR. All of the DoT classes rely more on Big Hitting moves than they do DoTs and the Burst DPS have all been toned down to the point where most of their moves do same damage. The biggest difference between Burst and DoTs is not sustained damage, its ability to change targets quickly vs setup time. But there are very few fights that require a target to be killed in less than 10 GCDs which lets all of the DoT classes to stand equal to the Burst classes (and the DoT Application is already factored into the DPS for those classes).

 

I definitely agree that Marauders should have the highest DPS of the melee classes, because it is a pure DPS spec and with the exception of Anni it has no capacity for self healing which in PVP is a huge liability, especially when there is no healer on your team. The DCDs while excellenet simply cannot cover the lack of self heals when pretty much everyone a Mara is fighting is going to have some to some degree. Given the cooldown times and the legnth of the DCDs, you will spend more than half of your average legnthed WZ with no DCD in effect due to cooldowns.

 

I feel the same way about Snipers, as a pure DPS class they should have the highest DPS among the ranged classes, however, I cannot make this argument for them while they still have self heals. Pure DPS classes should not have them, Marauder is a glass cannon, a Sniper in a walking trinity. If they brought them back to the state they were in before 5.0 [absense of self heals and perhaps a tweek on their defenses because they have so many], than I would stand with the idea that both Marauders and Snipers should have the highest DPS in the game.

 

Why? Besides for the above mentioned reasons, they cannot off tank, they cannot off heal, they cannot skank tank, they cannot switch roles, and of note, it intimates in the class description itself that they are for one thing and one thing only and they are the best at what they do, killing enemies.

" Marauder

 

Wielding two sabers and unmatched aggression, Sith trained as Marauders slice through enemy ranks, dealing death with merciless efficiency. Able to intuit precisely how to attack in order to maximize every strike, their adversaries become victims in the blink of an eye. Whether annihilating a squad of Republic troops or cutting down a single Jedi, the Marauder sees and exploits every weakness to exact the greatest toll. Never hesitating, never faltering, there is no swifter bringer of pain and damage in the galaxy. ]"

 

No other class description comes close to that sort of single minded purpose driven concept with regard to open combat.

 

Being a pure DPS class should mean something. If other classes can do as much or more DPS as a Marauder can, why would anyone choose a class that cannot heal itself and offers very little else other than damage dealing? Furthermore, given the high skill cap necessary to play the class optimally, that in and of itself warrants that consideration.

 

The DPS differences don't need to be huge, even a difference of 100 DPS would be sufficient to make the point and warrant the class being a pure DPS class, while leaving other classes not far behind them.

 

I have always felt and always will feel that pure DPS classes should do the best DPS in the game.

 

Even still though. I do think Anni should have a slight DPS edge on Carnage and Fury.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

i have a few questions in reguarding your post :

 

why should maras/sents be on top of the dps chain?

 

have u seen the posts in the past weeks where BW explained their meta for classes?

 

so u want a burst class doing more dps then a dot class?

 

im sorry but your post seems u are completly out of tune with whats being accepted by the overall of the comunity and explained by BW.

 

The whole concept by which they are attempting to balance the classes is inherently flawed. You cannot base DPS rankings on arbitrary groupings and dummy parses.

 

Every spec brings different skills, abilities, and group utility. You must consider everything they bring to the table because there are so many abilities specs have that might not on the surface lead to effecting DPS but that do as well as giving the group a better chance at clearing content.

For example, perma-stealth, self heals, mobility, CC kit, immunities, range, defenses, off healing, off tanking, skank tanking, escapes, dependency, support, in combat rez, role switching, armor type, ease of play style, difficulty of rotation, skill level, etc.

 

If you do not take all of these things into account what you wind up with is dps specs with self heals and better DPS than DPS specs without heals or less heals. These things matter. Even before mercs had their DPS nerfed, they did less damage than Anni and Carnage [base dps], yet, they often did much more damage than Marauders because their defensives and healing capacity ensured they could stand in stupid longer, ignore certain mechanics, survive longer and be more self sustaining than Marauders could hope to be. Same with snipers, better DPS, self heals, and tank like defenses.

 

It's little wonder why they were considered so OP throughout 5.x.

 

You cannot achieve class balance without looking at all aspects.

 

Carnage's burst while having the capacity to do more than Fury, is much less reliable than fury. You cannot shut down fury's burst, you might be able to delay it a second or two, but that will not effect the damage it does. In Carnage's case, one or two second delays cause tremendous DPS loses for their burst attacks. A VT that lands inside a Ferocity window might hit for 22k, that same VT delayed by 1 second and thus falling outside the Ferocity window might than do only 11-12k damage. That is a tremendoes difference. Carnage's burst is notably conditional and requires set up all the while have very strict resource management. Carnage is not forgiving of mistakes or delays of even a short duration. Once that ferocity window has come and gone, whether you were able to get all your burst attacks in it or not, you now have to wait another 10+ seconds to try again. In that interum, Carnage literally does not have the capacity to do burst at all. There are so many things that can effect the feroicty window being used to it's full intended capacity. Raid mechanics, stuns, slows, mezzes, mobility, escapes, perma stealth, Phase walk, invulnerability, reflects, knockbacks, roots, movement, etc.

 

Carnage will lose Ferocity windows, there is no if in that, jsut when and how often, and in PVP you are lucky of you get to use your ferocity window optimally half the time. You either lose it all together or have it shut down before it's complete.

 

Fury's Burst, while perhaps doing a bit less damage is reliable and you can count on it. It has the capacity to burst at any time, providing the attacks are not available and do not have to meet any conditions to use it's burst. Whether now or in two seconds, that damage is going to be the same, which is not the case with Carnage.

 

Carnage is the true psudo-burst spec and fury the burst spec, I see both Carnage and Fury players agreeing with that notion.

 

Fury should definately get a DPS buff, but Carnage should not do less DPS than Fury because it's Burst is not as reliable as Fury's is. Fury has better mobility, is able to stay on target better, and suffers less downtime than carnage in PVP because of it's CC immumities.

 

You don't determine spec type by the damage done, you determine it by it's functionality. Carnage's unreliable burst is the very reason it had decent sustained because it will face burst damage losses at times that are unavoidable and thus that sustained damage is vital to trying to make up for some of that lost burst damage.

 

If Fury does better DPS than Carnage, carnage will be obselete. Fury would have better burst, reliable burst, better mobility, better uptime, and better survivability in PVP due to it's CC immunties.

 

There is a reason why Carnage has always been the number two spec, and that's because of it's difficulty to play optimally and because it's burst is so conditional, not at all like a burst spec. Fury has front loaded, on demand burst, which is, the very definition of a burst spec. Carnage does not have that. Additionally, Fury has no resource management issues either, as it's beserk function grants it instant and delayed rage so it;s burst will always be ready to go on cooldown.

 

Fury can be brought up closer to Carnage DPS wise tho, there is no reason there needs to be a huge gap. I am more concerned about losing the play style and viability of Carnage more than anything else.

 

Carnage never was, isn't, nor could it ever be a viable burst spec because it simply does not have reliable burst. A missed/shut down window means at a minimum 20 seconds with no burst attack options. You take away the sustained too boot, that's 20 seconds of garbage DPS. Carnage cannot function that way and Carnage will literally become obsolete if Fury moves to the number two spot as it will just be better and more reliable than carnage in every way.

 

We want three viable specs, each with it's own uniqueness, and none a pale shadow of one of the others.

 

They do to Carnage what many suspect, that's a deal breaker for me, after 6 years of playing Carnage, im not interested in learning a new way to play it, of having the character of the spec altered, and there being no reward for it's high skill cap.

 

They can call Anni a burst spec all day long, that doesn't mean it would operate as one, it wouldn't. Carnage is not a burst spec, it is a psudo-burst spec it always has been. Give Fury it's just dessert, it deserves a buff, but it shouldn't come at the expense of Carnage. No one has to lose here.

 

But i'm not optimistic and I can think of no other way of demonstrating the disappointment of what may become of the spec other than unsubbing if it is made a pale shadow of what is has been, and rendered obsolete. For me, after all this time, its Carnage or its nothing. Nothing wrong with the other specs, but Carnage is what I am.

 

I hope both Fury and Carnage will be treated fairly, and I am very happy that Fury is finally getting some love, I really am, it's about friggen time!! =p . I just hope Carnage isn't the cost for it.