Needing a couple tweeks!

[DarthSealth]

The whole concept by which they are attempting to balance the classes is inherently flawed. You cannot base DPS rankings on arbitrary groupings and dummy parses.

 

Every spec brings different skills, abilities, and group utility. You must consider everything they bring to the table because there are so many abilities specs have that might not on the surface lead to effecting DPS but that do as well as giving the group a better chance at clearing content.

For example, perma-stealth, self heals, mobility, CC kit, immunities, range, defenses, off healing, off tanking, skank tanking, escapes, dependency, support, in combat rez, role switching, armor type, ease of play style, difficulty of rotation, skill level, etc.

 

If you do not take all of these things into account what you wind up with is dps specs with self heals and better DPS than DPS specs without heals or less heals. These things matter. Even before mercs had their DPS nerfed, they did less damage than Anni and Carnage [base dps], yet, they often did much more damage than Marauders because their defensives and healing capacity ensured they could stand in stupid longer, ignore certain mechanics, survive longer and be more self sustaining than Marauders could hope to be. Same with snipers, better DPS, self heals, and tank like defenses.

 

It's little wonder why they were considered so OP throughout 5.x.

 

You cannot achieve class balance without looking at all aspects.

 

Carnage's burst while having the capacity to do more than Fury, is much less reliable than fury. You cannot shut down fury's burst, you might be able to delay it a second or two, but that will not effect the damage it does. In Carnage's case, one or two second delays cause tremendous DPS loses for their burst attacks. A VT that lands inside a Ferocity window might hit for 22k, that same VT delayed by 1 second and thus falling outside the Ferocity window might than do only 11-12k damage. That is a tremendoes difference. Carnage's burst is notably conditional and requires set up all the while have very strict resource management. Carnage is not forgiving of mistakes or delays of even a short duration. Once that ferocity window has come and gone, whether you were able to get all your burst attacks in it or not, you now have to wait another 10+ seconds to try again. In that interum, Carnage literally does not have the capacity to do burst at all. There are so many things that can effect the feroicty window being used to it's full intended capacity. Raid mechanics, stuns, slows, mezzes, mobility, escapes, perma stealth, Phase walk, invulnerability, reflects, knockbacks, roots, movement, etc.

 

Carnage will lose Ferocity windows, there is no if in that, jsut when and how often, and in PVP you are lucky of you get to use your ferocity window optimally half the time. You either lose it all together or have it shut down before it's complete.

 

Fury's Burst, while perhaps doing a bit less damage is reliable and you can count on it. It has the capacity to burst at any time, providing the attacks are not available and do not have to meet any conditions to use it's burst. Whether now or in two seconds, that damage is going to be the same, which is not the case with Carnage.

 

Carnage is the true psudo-burst spec and fury the burst spec, I see both Carnage and Fury players agreeing with that notion.

 

Fury should definately get a DPS buff, but Carnage should not do less DPS than Fury because it's Burst is not as reliable as Fury's is. Fury has better mobility, is able to stay on target better, and suffers less downtime than carnage in PVP because of it's CC immumities.

 

You don't determine spec type by the damage done, you determine it by it's functionality. Carnage's unreliable burst is the very reason it had decent sustained because it will face burst damage losses at times that are unavoidable and thus that sustained damage is vital to trying to make up for some of that lost burst damage.

 

If Fury does better DPS than Carnage, carnage will be obselete. Fury would have better burst, reliable burst, better mobility, better uptime, and better survivability in PVP due to it's CC immunties.

 

There is a reason why Carnage has always been the number two spec, and that's because of it's difficulty to play optimally and because it's burst is so conditional, not at all like a burst spec. Fury has front loaded, on demand burst, which is, the very definition of a burst spec. Carnage does not have that. Additionally, Fury has no resource management issues either, as it's beserk function grants it instant and delayed rage so it;s burst will always be ready to go on cooldown.

 

Fury can be brought up closer to Carnage DPS wise tho, there is no reason there needs to be a huge gap. I am more concerned about losing the play style and viability of Carnage more than anything else.

 

Carnage never was, isn't, nor could it ever be a viable burst spec because it simply does not have reliable burst. A missed/shut down window means at a minimum 20 seconds with no burst attack options. You take away the sustained too boot, that's 20 seconds of garbage DPS. Carnage cannot function that way and Carnage will literally become obsolete if Fury moves to the number two spot as it will just be better and more reliable than carnage in every way.

 

We want three viable specs, each with it's own uniqueness, and none a pale shadow of one of the others.

 

They do to Carnage what many suspect, that's a deal breaker for me, after 6 years of playing Carnage, im not interested in learning a new way to play it, of having the character of the spec altered, and there being no reward for it's high skill cap.

 

They can call Anni a burst spec all day long, that doesn't mean it would operate as one, it wouldn't. Carnage is not a burst spec, it is a psudo-burst spec it always has been. Give Fury it's just dessert, it deserves a buff, but it shouldn't come at the expense of Carnage. No one has to lose here.

 

But i'm not optimistic and I can think of no other way of demonstrating the disappointment of what may become of the spec other than unsubbing if it is made a pale shadow of what is has been, and rendered obsolete. For me, after all this time, its Carnage or its nothing. Nothing wrong with the other specs, but Carnage is what I am.

 

I hope both Fury and Carnage will be treated fairly, and I am very happy that Fury is finally getting some love, I really am, it's about friggen time!! =p . I just hope Carnage isn't the cost for it.

 

Yeah as you've stated they should be the same for dmg purposes but carnage will never be redundant because it will always have the alacrity (stance/form) boost for faster cd but I agree with you about the rage management for carnage I might of said already I forget what I say sometimes because the backlash so I mostly stay quiet and let the others demand stuff like Nerfs for healers lol

 

To be fair I'd want both higher parsing than Annihilation no matter what the MMO-ERS say Annihilation has the everything has been the go to for too long. With the idea of bleeds on top of bleeds heals on top of dmg let alone the spreads whatever you call that it's like AOE it's like you have the cake and eat it. Damn Annihilation can hit base over 2k more dmg on an ability excluding self heals and bleeds. Yet MMO-ERS will say it's fair.

 

As stated before I started the game as carnage did mess around with hybrids. But when they nerfed us I left not only the spec but the game I love carnage and Marauders I did find my love again within fury and came to love it much because of Force Crush tbh olde KoTOR TSL days coming out in me but I did rekindle love for carnage in 4.x during DVL making a back up toon for the spec but something I dunno what it is never felt the same like old thrills but yet I still love it. Fury will now always mean more to me now because little stupid attachments let alone gameplay but Carnage was my first go to so I hold it also on a pedestal where as I spent one or two patches with Annihilation and I felt no love to it felt no thrills no personal attachment just utter DPS so I chose Fury knowing it was worse but more fun/rewarding like I don't know how to explain but it's like the reason I loved playing lightning because of spamming lightning storm reminded me of good olde place and time in TSL lol Just a lot is refreshing my childhood!

Edited August 1, 2017 by DarthSealth

[Threjyan]

I agree with all of this save for that I do think Anni should have the highest DPS of the three because it is a sustained/DOT spec. Although, to be fair, and counter to that argument, as has been sited before, there is very little difference between sustained and burst specs in this game, they do not follow the classic traditional molds.

The following is a quote from Bant whom I believe everyone on the forums is aquainted with, we base all our gearing and stat spreads based on his work.

 

 

 

I definitely agree that Marauders should have the highest DPS of the melee classes, because it is a pure DPS spec and with the exception of Anni it has no capacity for self healing which in PVP is a huge liability, especially when there is no healer on your team. The DCDs while excellenet simply cannot cover the lack of self heals when pretty much everyone a Mara is fighting is going to have some to some degree. Given the cooldown times and the legnth of the DCDs, you will spend more than half of your average legnthed WZ with no DCD in effect due to cooldowns.

 

I feel the same way about Snipers, as a pure DPS class they should have the highest DPS among the ranged classes, however, I cannot make this argument for them while they still have self heals. Pure DPS classes should not have them, Marauder is a glass cannon, a Sniper in a walking trinity. If they brought them back to the state they were in before 5.0 [absense of self heals and perhaps a tweek on their defenses because they have so many], than I would stand with the idea that both Marauders and Snipers should have the highest DPS in the game.

 

Why? Besides for the above mentioned reasons, they cannot off tank, they cannot off heal, they cannot skank tank, they cannot switch roles, and of note, it intimates in the class description itself that they are for one thing and one thing only and they are the best at what they do, killing enemies.

" Marauder

 

Wielding two sabers and unmatched aggression, Sith trained as Marauders slice through enemy ranks, dealing death with merciless efficiency. Able to intuit precisely how to attack in order to maximize every strike, their adversaries become victims in the blink of an eye. Whether annihilating a squad of Republic troops or cutting down a single Jedi, the Marauder sees and exploits every weakness to exact the greatest toll. Never hesitating, never faltering, there is no swifter bringer of pain and damage in the galaxy. ]"

 

No other class description comes close to that sort of single minded purpose driven concept with regard to open combat.

 

Being a pure DPS class should mean something. If other classes can do as much or more DPS as a Marauder can, why would anyone choose a class that cannot heal itself and offers very little else other than damage dealing? Furthermore, given the high skill cap necessary to play the class optimally, that in and of itself warrants that consideration.

 

The DPS differences don't need to be huge, even a difference of 100 DPS would be sufficient to make the point and warrant the class being a pure DPS class, while leaving other classes not far behind them.

 

I have always felt and always will feel that pure DPS classes should do the best DPS in the game.

 

Even still though. I do think Anni should have a slight DPS edge on Carnage and Fury.

 

 

in the end all i can read from your post is dont nerf carnage cause its the spec i like.

 

the truth is that nerfs are incoming for carnage and it wont be good ones.

 

the only advice i can give you is stop relying only in one spec in this game and u will be much happier.

i mained combat sentinel since 1.6 until 3.0. then i finnally started to pay atention to other classes and the importance of having several classes, specs and roles for raiding.

ofc on hm it doesnt matter much, but the actual raider these days uses a variety of tool in his/her disposal that only relying in one class to be on top of the food chain is a mistake.

[Threjyan]

 

To be fair I'd want both higher parsing than Annihilation no matter what the MMO-ERS say Annihilation has the everything has been the go to for too long. With the idea of bleeds on top of bleeds heals on top of dmg let alone the spreads whatever you call that it's like AOE it's like you have the cake and eat it. Damn Annihilation can hit base over 2k more dmg on an ability excluding self heals and bleeds. Yet MMO-ERS will say it's fair.

 

 

seriously, your out of tune of the reality of the game, or then i am reading wrongly.

 

carnage aoe is better/stronger then anni aoe.

 

you want burst spec to be parsing higher then a dot spec? u dont need to pay attention to dots on enemies and u want to do more dps?kappa

 

There is an inherant skill to be able to track dots , therefore the reward is there: more dps for dot classes (like BW already stated: melee dot dps > ranged dot dps / melee burst dps > ranged burtds dps)

 

you would delete game if u had to start to pay attention to hatred dots.in any case, according to your feedback deception should be doing better then hatred.

 

please give me a break.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Threjyan

[DarthSealth]

seriously, your out of tune of the reality of the game, or then i am reading wrongly.

 

carnage aoe is better/stronger then anni aoe.

 

you want burst spec to be parsing higher then a dot spec? u dont need to pay attention to dots on enemies and u want to do more dps?kappa

 

There is an inherant skill to be able to track dots , therefore the reward is there: more dps for dot classes (like BW already stated: melee dot dps > ranged dot dps / melee burst dps > ranged burtds dps)

 

you would delete game if u had to start to pay attention to hatred dots.in any case, according to your feedback deception should be doing better then hatred.

 

please give me a break.

 

Yep I hate hatred (pun intended) I much prefer deception and it performs better but how come burst specs don't? Answer me that if you can perform DPS to spread across to spectrum you will be more effective against mobs let alone bosses because you compare DPS on single targets Annihilation will still out perform unless you're in the time window of carnage. Which if you haven't been CC'd or pull around is ok. But as stated burst should be more effective at harder hits regardless the highest DPS of a single target out of the three is Annihilation. Let alone the other little perks to say this should be the highest parsing give me a valid answer instead BW stated or that is what MMO's do.

[Threjyan]

Yep I hate hatred (pun intended) I much prefer deception and it performs better but how come burst specs don't? Answer me that if you can perform DPS to spread across to spectrum you will be more effective against mobs let alone bosses because you compare DPS on single targets Annihilation will still out perform unless you're in the time window of carnage. Which if you haven't been CC'd or pull around is ok. But as stated burst should be more effective at harder hits regardless the highest DPS of a single target out of the three is Annihilation. Let alone the other little perks to say this should be the highest parsing give me a valid answer instead BW stated or that is what MMO's do.

 

thats the way the class/carnage is designed - only currently its performing better then it should, and unfortunatly they wont change the rotations or the perks, only fix the values of how much they debut.

 

in any case, all dot specs should be doing more dps then their burst counterparts - thats the reward for playing a dot spec (which usually needs a revamp to start doing real dps)

[DarthSealth]

in any case, all dot specs should be doing more dps then their burst counterparts

 

Yeah so like hatred or madness?

 

I'm gonna be honest I still can't see your point all I know there is a large following of Annihilation and probably the only reason why they haven't.

[Threjyan]

Yeah so like hatred or madness?

 

I'm gonna be honest I still can't see your point all I know there is a large following of Annihilation and probably the only reason why they haven't.

 

because dot specs are "harder" to play and need a revamp to start doing real dmg - thing that burst classes dont suffer that much.

 

but seriously, u need to start have a little bit more carefull when u articulate a sentence, cause its really dificult to understand what u are trying to say.

[DarthSealth]

because dot specs are "harder" to play and need a revamp to start doing real dmg - thing that burst classes dont suffer that much.

 

but seriously, u need to start have a little bit more carefull when u articulate a sentence, cause its really dificult to understand what u are trying to say.

 

Said the person who could really do with a lesson in English.

It's dreadful... I really can't comprehend why I bother replying.

If you're going to try to slate me at least have a sentence that holds up against what you're opposing!

Ha kids these days.

[Ottoattack]

thats the way the class/carnage is designed - only currently its performing better then it should, and unfortunatly they wont change the rotations or the perks, only fix the values of how much they debut.

 

in any case, all dot specs should be doing more dps then their burst counterparts - thats the reward for playing a dot spec (which usually needs a revamp to start doing real dps)

 

This is rather complicated. I presume it is over performing in PvE. The question though is compared to what? Better than fury? For sure, but last I checked both dec and conc put around the same dps, so why are we singling out carnage here?

 

As for fury vs carnage, I can read into that from PvE stand point. Though, it is not the dumb crap BW mentions. Did BW account for fury's high burst, non-existing setup, range flexibility and CC immunity when they put it as "quasi burst?" No. A 2-3% nerf to carnage's overall damage will be fine (along with AOE nerf). However, if we get a 5% damage nerf while buffing fury, carnage will go extinct. There will be no reason to play it in any game content, since it will be out dpsed by at least 3 other burst melee dps specs and fury will become much better in PvP. Both fury and carnage should be putting around the same dps.

 

On another note, both fury and carnage are over performing in PvP due to survivability, and that is unlikely to change.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Ottoattack

[Threjyan]

Said the person who could really do with a lesson in English.

It's dreadful... I really can't comprehend why I bother replying.

If you're going to try to slate me at least have a sentence that holds up against what you're opposing!

Ha kids these days.

 

oh boy

 

1st of all im not the 1st person to adress you about your writting but whatever - u prefer to call me a kid - i guess ur a keyboard warrior.

 

then again, reguarding your carnage vs anni vs fury, in a couple of days we will see the nerfs/buffs coming to those classes and we will see who has a point according to the meta.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Threjyan

[Threjyan]

This is rather complicated. I presume it is over performing in PvE. The question though is compared to what? Better than fury? For sure, but last I checked both dec and conc put around the same dps, so why are we singling out carnage here?

 

As for fury vs carnage, I can read into that from PvE stand point. Though, it is not the dumb crap BW mentions. Did BW account for fury's high burst, non-existing setup, range flexibility and CC immunity when they put it as "quasi burst?" No. A 2-3% nerf to carnage's overall damage will be fine (along with AOE nerf). However, if we get a 5% damage nerf while buffing fury, carnage will go extinct. There will be no reason to play it in any game content, since it will be out dpsed by at least 3 other burst melee dps specs and fury will become much better in PvP. Both fury and carnage should be putting around the same dps.

 

On another note, both fury and carnage are over performing in PvP due to survivability, and that is unlikely to change.

 

knowing BW balance, thats exactly what will happen most likely.

 

yes even top end players already adressed it will prolly be benefitial to play fury in some end game content.

 

and yes im talking about pve perspective - and concealment will get its nerf hammer in the upcoming days.

 

basicly with this nerfs and adjustments we will be doing the same dps we were doing when 242 was the top end gear.

[DarthSealth]

oh boy

 

1st of all im not the 1st person to adress you about your writting but whatever - u prefer to call me a kid - i guess ur a keyboard warrior.

 

then again, reguarding your carnage vs anni vs fury, in a couple of days we will see the nerfs/buffs coming to those classes and we will see who has a point according to the meta.

 

Don't try something stupid then.

Hence I can play nice with you kids I know it's your six weeks holiday and all.

As stated prior I prefer burst specs and in every other spec burst had been out performing dot specs which should be the case when dealing with a boss we lose DPS where dots left over the period still does damage.

[DarthSealth]

This is rather complicated. I presume it is over performing in PvE. The question though is compared to what? Better than fury? For sure, but last I checked both dec and conc put around the same dps, so why are we singling out carnage here?

 

As for fury vs carnage, I can read into that from PvE stand point. Though, it is not the dumb crap BW mentions. Did BW account for fury's high burst, non-existing setup, range flexibility and CC immunity when they put it as "quasi burst?" No. A 2-3% nerf to carnage's overall damage will be fine (along with AOE nerf). However, if we get a 5% damage nerf while buffing fury, carnage will go extinct. There will be no reason to play it in any game content, since it will be out dpsed by at least 3 other burst melee dps specs and fury will become much better in PvP. Both fury and carnage should be putting around the same dps.

 

On another note, both fury and carnage are over performing in PvP due to survivability, and that is unlikely to change.

 

The only spec I'd love to see non-existent is Annihilation I play as both Carnage and Fury.

Fury is somewhat a masterpiece to me.

Carnage i feel like Jason total hack and slash.

 

Two separate toons I should add!

I love Carnage it was my first go to spec.

Fury was my second go to spec after Carnage was extremely nerfed all them years ago.

[Threjyan]

Don't try something stupid then.

Hence I can play nice with you kids I know it's your six weeks holiday and all.

As stated prior I prefer burst specs and in every other spec burst had been out performing dot specs which should be the case when dealing with a boss we lose DPS where dots left over the period still does damage.

 

i feel honoured u think i deserve 6 weeks of vacations. gonna recomend this thread to my boss.

 

now back to the thread:

 

im going to tell you a little secret in case u havent realized: BW prefers dots specs to have more dmg. maybe they also have realized there should be a reward to play those classes - thing u refuse to accept, and i dont see why its so hard to accept it.

 

in any case, the post for carnage changes is coming, and we will see if bioware adjustments are more inclined to the way u think or the way i think.

 

ps: im glad you managed to improve your english.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Threjyan

[Threjyan]

The only spec I'd love to see non-existent is Annihilation I play as both Carnage and Fury.

 

 

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