This nerf is just RIDICULOUS

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I've played a Lightning Sorcerer since early release. Are we less DPS than pure DPS classes like Sniper, Marauder and Assassin? Yes, and we should be....to a point...

 

We have utility that the pure DPS classes don't, including heals, bubbles, pulls, purge, and AEs, among others. Can we still be viable in Hard/Master content? Definitely, for utility reasons.

 

Yes, the nerfs were a little severe when compared to Flavor-of-the-Month Mercenaries, but it's not as crippling as you nay-sayers think it is, at least not for PvE. I can't speak on PvP as that aspect of the game is silly, in my opinion.

 

Learn your rotations, dish out wide-spread damage, and be prepared to step outside your comfort zone for harder Ops. Sorcerers are a universal class that helps bridge gaps between DPS and raid utility.

 

That being said, of course I would like my place among the pantheon of high DPS again, bit until then, I get by just fine.

 

--Decarabia--

 

Assassin isn't a pure DPS class. Just Marauders and Snipers [although I'd hardly consider Snipers a 'pure dps class' anymore]. Pure DPS classes should not have self heals like that and that kind of over the top survivability, on a ranged class no less.

 

While they clearly need some love with their DPS, things like survivability [self heals/DCDs, when both are present ] should weight in on it, even if currently there are two classes that totally break that mold. That said, there is no excuse for one DPS spec to be outdone by certain other ones by over 1000 dps.

 

All things considered, as you said, pure DPS classes should have better DPS, but not to these kinds of levels, that degree of DPS difference compared to other rDPS specs is inexcusable.

 

The higher the survivability the lower the DPS should be by a direct ratio. - It's called a glass canon for a reason heh

Edited May 2, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[verfallen]

Assassin isn't a pure DPS class. Just Marauders and Snipers [although I'd hardly consider Snipers a 'pure dps class' anymore]. Pure DPS classes should not have self heals like that and that kind of over the top survivability, on a ranged class no less.

 

While they clearly need some love with their DPS, things like survivability [self heals/DCDs, when both are present ] should weight in on it, even if currently there are two classes that totally break that mold. That said, there is no excuse for one DPS spec to be outdone by certain other ones by over 1000 dps.

 

All things considered, as you said, pure DPS classes should have better DPS, but not to these kinds of levels, that degree of DPS difference compared to other rDPS specs is inexcusable.

 

The higher the survivability the lower the DPS should be by a direct ratio. - It's called a glass canon for a reason heh

 

Actually sin as a dps is pretty much pure dps imo. Not because I'm forgetting they can spec as tank, but because they bring absolutely no other utility to the raid than a single target offtaunt. Point.

 

This whole balance out pure dps as "higher" dps idea I always disagreed with, since it means also removing about every raid utility from these classes, otherwise there would be too big of an advantage into bringing sniper/mara only in a raid.

 

That raid utility is the saving grace for sorc right now.

[saberscreen]

Before you critique. READ the following with INTENT: I don't mean to disregard or ignore the WHOLE thread and I'm sure some of your points are VALID, but I'm NOT going to get into ANY of this simply because it'll be a NEVERENDING STORY.

 

I'm just going to say that INSTEAD of BALANCING the classes with almost EVERY UPDATE, Bioware SHOULD create an EXTRA UITILITY TAB for EVERY CLASS that contain utilities which will ONLY be usable in WARZONES.

 

This way, you CAN balance PVP and tweak and adjust it IF or WHEN that's NECESSARY, and just leave PVE out of it completely. PVE doesn't need balance as MUCH as PVP because PVE is co-operative. Who CARES about a Sorcerer doing DPS in GROUP CONTENT when you have GUNSLINGERS and SENTINELS. I EXPECT a Sorcerer to be a HEALER in group content. I EXPECT a Guardian to be a TANK.

 

Want to play DPS? Choose a DPS class. In PVP it's a different story. Sorcerers SHOULD BE COMPETITIVE in Warzones. There's NO need for DPS sorcerers in PVE. Every OTHER DPS class does more damage and RIGHTLY SO. It's their ROLE.

 

Did any of this make sense? I HOPE SO. Support this idea. It'll solve stuff.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Actually sin as a dps is pretty much pure dps imo. Not because I'm forgetting they can spec as tank, but because they bring absolutely no other utility to the raid than a single target offtaunt. Point.

 

This whole balance out pure dps as "higher" dps idea I always disagreed with, since it means also removing about every raid utility from these classes, otherwise there would be too big of an advantage into bringing sniper/mara only in a raid.

 

That raid utility is the saving grace for sorc right now.

 

 

I myself feel the pure dps classes should have the best DPS, but that's just my opinion. I do not think a pure DPS class should have heals, but in turn higher DPS.

 

When I spoke of pure DPS classes, i was speaking in the technical sense, Maras and Snipers are the only pure DPS classes, which is why I find the present state of Snipers troubling. They have great defensive, self heals, a ton of CCs and can exercise controlling melee to obscene levels.

 

Compared to Snipers, Assassins are closer to the pure DPS class mold than Snipers are now.

Even thought they do have some self healing, it's not like snipers heals/dcds.

Leeching Strike Deals medium damage and heals you for 100% of the damage you deal.

Overcharge Saber – 15% Self-heal and restores 1% of your maximum health every time you activate your light saber charge.

 

Not that that's a whole lot but certainly better than nothing!

Edited May 2, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[IIIDeathGripsIII]

Where are all the Lightning sorcerors or madness?

 

http://ixparse.com/challenges/?challenge=6

[rylanadionysis]

Where are all the Lightning sorcerors or madness?

 

http://ixparse.com/challenges/?challenge=6

 

We all respecced heals so we dont get bumped from groups for mercs.

 

Cant believe this is a thing, tbh.

 

 

lol omg, look at dread council second phase chart. what the actual...

 

The very best sorc in that fight is only as good as the most mediocre of literally anything else... (sorc/sage 99th percentile is less than all seven other classes 75th percentile and just about to equal, and in some cases lower than, 50th)

 

That means a terribad sin or operative is preferable to even the very best sorc.

 

Thats lulzy, to the nth degree.

 

 

 

Edit to add: I dont feel so bad now that before I respecced I parsed 7.2k and felt much shame. For a sorc, thats actually pretty damn good apparently.

Edited May 6, 2017 by rylanadionysis

[LordTurin]

Actually sin as a dps is pretty much pure dps imo. Not because I'm forgetting they can spec as tank, but because they bring absolutely no other utility to the raid than a single target offtaunt. Point..

 

They also bring a stealth rez.

[IIIDeathGripsIII]

We all respecced heals so we dont get bumped from groups for mercs.

 

Cant believe this is a thing, tbh.

 

 

lol omg, look at dread council second phase chart. what the actual...

 

The very best sorc in that fight is only as good as the most mediocre of literally anything else... (sorc/sage 99th percentile is less than all seven other classes 75th percentile and just about to equal, and in some cases lower than, 50th)

 

That means a terribad sin or operative is preferable to even the very best sorc.

 

Thats lulzy, to the nth degree.

 

 

 

Edit to add: I dont feel so bad now that before I respecced I parsed 7.2k and felt much shame. For a sorc, thats actually pretty damn good apparently.

 

Yeah I am a newb I'll admit only been playing for about 8 months, but every time I hear someone say Sorc DPS is fine I look at those numbers and think ***? I don't know maybe I am reading it wrong or don't understand it somehow heh.

[verfallen]

They also bring a stealth rez.

 

Not really, since you use it in your rotation to reset recklessness

 

On paper they do, on the field, unless its a perfect fit that someone dies as your stealth comes off cd, you dont actually bring that. Also, in a LOT of fight its about as useful as square wheels.

Edited May 6, 2017 by verfallen

[ElZaguero]

Everyone is complaining about Sorc, but Sage is just as bad off.

[saberscreen]

Want to see a ridiculous nerf? Go ahead and roll a Sentinel!

 

[FerkWork]

Not really, since you use it in your rotation to reset recklessness

 

On paper they do, on the field, unless its a perfect fit that someone dies as your stealth comes off cd, you dont actually bring that. Also, in a LOT of fight its about as useful as square wheels.

 

And even so, the Rez CD since it doesn't have a healing spec, is normal length so you can only do it once per fight or once per multiple pulls.

 

Everyone is complaining about Sorc, but Sage is just as bad off.

 

Uhm because they are the mirror class and one in the same.... >_>

 

Want to see a ridiculous nerf? Go ahead and roll a Sentinel!

 

 

If you think sentinels got nerfed or in a bad spot, I have some Beach property to sell you in South Dakota.

Edited May 9, 2017 by FerkWork

[BraverDre]

Want to see a ridiculous nerf? Go ahead and roll a Sentinel!

 

 

Both sorc dps perform 1k dps below than other classes. http://ixparse.com/rating/ go ahead and see for urself.

I am tired of THOSE (mntl rtrdd ghhhmm) people who say *sorcs are not as bad bla bla bla roll sent bla bla bla*. Even powertech is better than a sorc in terms of damage ( here is pt http://ixparse.com/rating/?boss=25&mode=HM&size=8M&type=DPS&class=Vanguard&order=rating&dir=d , here is sorc http://ixparse.com/rating/?boss=25&mode=HM&size=8M&type=DPS&class=Sage&order=rating&dir=d )

 

SORC DPS HAS TO BE BUFFED

Edited May 9, 2017 by BraverDre

[verfallen]

And even so, the Rez CD since it doesn't have a healing spec, is normal length so you can only do it once per fight or once per multiple pulls.

 

Even if it wasn't the sheer constant raid wide damage on a lot of bosses make stealth rezzing nearly impossible. And the harder and more worthwhile an additionnal rez would be for the fight, the more impossible it is to actually use it.

 

Who wants to stealth rez in HM M&B ?

 

 

 

If you think sentinels got nerfed or in a bad spot, I have some Beach property to sell you in South Dakota.

 

Sounds legit. Sign me up.

[ViktorAres]

The nerf has made DPS sorcs/sages the weakest DPS class with the squishiest "armor". I don't know where the developers were going with this. Did they even test the sorcs vs. other classes in PVP??

 

Please buff the sorc/sage damage and healing, to bring them in-line with other ranged DPS classes.

[Gramm]

Lightning sorc is barely viable only if you get the Chain lightning exploit. Kinda sad that an exploit brings a class into viability.

[BraverDre]

Please Devs make sorc dps great again!

[Jushyfruit]

http://parsely.io/parser/view/279407/0

 

Got a chance to DPS NiM EC and our group had a great tanks kill. This should be some proof that sorc DPS is viable for even the hardest content in the game and can keep up with other classes DPS. The video isn't from my PoV (my computer can't handle recording and playing) but it's entertaining nonetheless.

[FerkWork]

http://parsely.io/parser/view/279407/0

 

Got a chance to DPS NiM EC and our group had a great tanks kill. This should be some proof that sorc DPS is viable for even the hardest content in the game and can keep up with other classes DPS. The video isn't from my PoV (my computer can't handle recording and playing) but it's entertaining nonetheless.

 

1) Not to be mean but I just have to call it out, Dat Reflect Damage Feat Jugg Tank truely does make whatever is left of a DPS check trivial (even though you were close to enrage) and leads to #2.

2) Yes overgearing content truely solves any problem. A better test would have been using a Sorc on a team in only crafted 240 on a fight you can't abuse reflect like what other classes did early 5.0. Or wait till they release new NiM that can't be overgeared at first.

3) 8.6k on Tanks in your gear when Maras can do 10k on that fight and Non Reflecting Mercs over 9k at the bare minimum and from watching it isn't skill holding you back since you seem a capable player.

4) It's Tanks so number #1 applies even more.

5) The point is that Sorc DPS is still grossly inferior competively to Merc or Sniper unless you can abuse CL Bug. A class can still barely be able to put enough minimum numbers to be "viable" but why do that when I can bring a more powerful class with far more utility. And that's what teams are looking for.

 

So let me ask you and with no offense, why should I bring a Sorc DPS over a Sniper or Merc for the ranged spot again unless I'm that bored or someone is begging to bring it for the memes? Almost every team already have Sorc heals for Buff and Bubbles so no need for being a utility class. Sure Give enough gear on players and you can see 4 Sorc DPS be able kill Brontes with ease. But that doesn't solve the problem as Snipers and Mercs will still be favored for all their advantages. Unless we are gonna start reviving Bring the Player not the class memes lol. So the class does need serious buffs if it's going to be considered a serious contender with Mercs and Snipers.

Edited May 14, 2017 by FerkWork

[Jushyfruit]

1) Not to be mean but I just have to call it out, Dat Reflect Damage Feat Jugg Tank truely does make whatever is left of a DPS check trivial (even though you were close to enrage) and leads to #2.

2) Yes overgearing content truely solves any problem. A better test would have been using a Sorc on a team in only crafted 240 on a fight you can't abuse reflect like what other classes did early 5.0. Or wait till they release new NiM that can't be overgeared at first.

3) 8.6k on Tanks in your gear when Maras can do 10k on that fight and Non Reflecting Mercs over 9k at the bare minimum and from watching it isn't skill holding you back since you seem a capable player.

4) It's Tanks so number #1 applies even more.

5) The point is that Sorc DPS is still grossly inferior competively to Merc or Sniper unless you can abuse CL Bug. A class can still barely be able to put enough minimum numbers to be "viable" but why do that when I can bring a more powerful class with far more utility. And that's what teams are looking for.

 

So let me ask you and with no offense, why should I bring a Sorc DPS over a Sniper or Merc for the ranged spot again unless I'm that bored or someone is begging to bring it for the memes? Almost every team already have Sorc heals for Buff and Bubbles so no need for being a utility class. Sure Give enough gear on players and you can see 4 Sorc DPS be able kill Brontes with ease. But that doesn't solve the problem as Snipers and Mercs will still be favored for all their advantages. Unless we are gonna start reviving Bring the Player not the class memes lol. So the class does need serious buffs if it's going to be considered a serious contender with Mercs and Snipers.

 

There are very few groups that could kill tanks without enrage and without reflect from any class but with or without jugg tank reflect this would've been a kill whether or not they enraged. As for why to bring Sorc DPS I would ask why not? You say DPS is no longer an issue now that we've overgeared content so any class should be viable for any fight in the game at this point. Sorcs have some great utility as well, are decently self sufficient when it comes to healing, and can put out some excellent burst numbers still. I agree though that perfectly played, Sorc loses out to both Merc and Sniper but one class is always going to be behind. How far behind it is in pure damage right now sucks but at this point there is such a negative stigma regarding DPS Sorcs that no one wants them for ops even when they are currently viable and have the potential to do better than some players playing other classes. Maybe I missed the memes but I see nothing wrong with bringing a player who is better at their class than someone playing average on a FOTM class which is something I see in a lot of groups.

[Dewlmenow]

There are very few groups that could kill tanks without enrage and without reflect from any class but with or without jugg tank reflect this would've been a kill whether or not they enraged. As for why to bring Sorc DPS I would ask why not? You say DPS is no longer an issue now that we've overgeared content so any class should be viable for any fight in the game at this point. Sorcs have some great utility as well, are decently self sufficient when it comes to healing, and can put out some excellent burst numbers still. I agree though that perfectly played, Sorc loses out to both Merc and Sniper but one class is always going to be behind. How far behind it is in pure damage right now sucks but at this point there is such a negative stigma regarding DPS Sorcs that no one wants them for ops even when they are currently viable and have the potential to do better than some players playing other classes. Maybe I missed the memes but I see nothing wrong with bringing a player who is better at their class than someone playing average on a FOTM class which is something I see in a lot of groups.

 

The issue is that sorcs have been behind mercs and snipers in dps output since 3.0, when is that going to change?

[FerkWork]

There are very few groups that could kill tanks without enrage and without reflect from any class but with or without jugg tank reflect this would've been a kill whether or not they enraged. As for why to bring Sorc DPS I would ask why not? You say DPS is no longer an issue now that we've overgeared content so any class should be viable for any fight in the game at this point. Sorcs have some great utility as well, are decently self sufficient when it comes to healing, and can put out some excellent burst numbers still. I agree though that perfectly played, Sorc loses out to both Merc and Sniper but one class is always going to be behind. How far behind it is in pure damage right now sucks but at this point there is such a negative stigma regarding DPS Sorcs that no one wants them for ops even when they are currently viable and have the potential to do better than some players playing other classes. Maybe I missed the memes but I see nothing wrong with bringing a player who is better at their class than someone playing average on a FOTM class which is something I see in a lot of groups.

 

Healing is overtuned so Off heals are about as useful as a taunt on a DPS class. And DPS>Utility when we're talking Damage Dealers as one kills the boss. There's a reason for that stigma because the class performs in its role as a Damage dealer worse than the other ranged. As my point stands why bother and just bring the Merc or Sniper and call it a day. If there are serious DPS checks again why should I bring the Sorc? Even now, making it easier is always preferred over making it arbitary more challenging and relying on gear and other classes to pick up the slack. My point is as someone who watched the video and looked at your other raid DPS parses, the class is underperforming and that's the main issue. Another Merc/Sniper instead would have killed it 10 seconds faster and that's all that raid teams care about. Stigma won't change until Sorcs are as competitive as Mercs/Snipers because killing it and killing it fast is all that matters in the end. The few good Sorc players that haven't quit over the years realized this in 3.0 and have swapped accordingly. Great Players can play any class well and will swap to fit the raid and that's the end of story. Again, until changes come, non exploiting Sorcs will be rarely scene and for good reason.

 

 

The anecdote about memes is when a guild after killing Revan after it was nerfed to the ground in 3.0 made that claim after using non bounty hunters to kill it and proclaimed themselves better than groups that killed it pre nerf with all BH. Like it was said at the time, it's a silly statement then and now.

 

 

The issue is that sorcs have been behind mercs and snipers in dps output since 3.0, when is that going to change?

 

This is the point. There are fundamental issues with the class that need to be fixed.

Edited May 15, 2017 by FerkWork

[Jushyfruit]

Healing is overtuned so Off heals are about as useful as a taunt on a DPS class. And DPS>Utility when we're talking Damage Dealers as one kills the boss. There's a reason for that stigma because the class performs in its role as a Damage dealer worse than the other ranged. As my point stands why bother and just bring the Merc or Sniper and call it a day. If there are serious DPS checks again why should I bring the Sorc? Even now, making it easier is always preferred over making it arbitary more challenging and relying on gear and other classes to pick up the slack. My point is as someone who watched the video and looked at your other raid DPS parses, the class is underperforming and that's the main issue. Another Merc/Sniper instead would have killed it 10 seconds faster and that's all that raid teams care about. Stigma won't change until Sorcs are as competitive as Mercs/Snipers because killing it and killing it fast is all that matters in the end. The few good Sorc players that haven't quit over the years realized this in 3.0 and have swapped accordingly. Great Players can play any class well and will swap to fit the raid and that's the end of story. Again, until changes come, non exploiting Sorcs will be rarely scene and for good reason.

 

I primarily heal for my raid group and the less healing I have to do, the more DPS I can do however insignificant you might think that is. I guess I just don't fully agree with the point that there are DPS checks that Sorcs can't do or would be better served by bringing in another ranged class. Most of the important DPS checks in the game are burst DPS which Lightning Sorc is great at. Sorcs right now are in the same position DPS wise as Mercs were before 5.2 so the argument that they are not viable well.... isn't a viable argument anymore. I don't think my previous argument was to say bring a Sorc over a Merc or Sniper but to prove that they are in fact viable for whatever content you want to do, to counter the previous arguments of their viability in the thread. If a group wants to save those 10 seconds by bringing in a Merc or Sniper then more power to them but in the end I think there are more factors than just what DPS numbers they are pulling on paper. Maybe I do prescribe too much to the theory of bring the better player rather than rely on the class because with the current content we have, class will not make or break the group. This isn't a post saying don't buff Sorcs (they do need it) but rather an argument against those who feel Sorc is not viable for current content.

 

If I remember 4.0 though, the DPS spread between the ranged classes was much smaller and Mercs didn't have reflect so the options for ranged DPS were a bit more flexible. I didn't play before 4.0 though so I can't speak for the class balance then but I have heard from many people that Sorcs were king at one point.

[Mobiousren]

Still missing the main point:

 

If you can pull 8k on a sage/sorc, congrats. But you could pull 10k on another dps class.

If you can pull 10k on a sage/sorc, congrats. But you could pull 12k on another dps class.

If you can pull 850k on a sage/sorc, congrats. But you could pull 950k on another dps class.

 

It's a question of relativity.

 

And that makes the class to be cast out. Simple.

 

There's NO point on nerfing the class THAT much. There's NOTHING that can justify it.

[FerkWork]

I primarily heal for my raid group and the less healing I have to do, the more DPS I can do however insignificant you might think that is. I guess I just don't fully agree with the point that there are DPS checks that Sorcs can't do or would be better served by bringing in another ranged class. Most of the important DPS checks in the game are burst DPS which Lightning Sorc is great at. Sorcs right now are in the same position DPS wise as Mercs were before 5.2 so the argument that they are not viable well.... isn't a viable argument anymore. I don't think my previous argument was to say bring a Sorc over a Merc or Sniper but to prove that they are in fact viable for whatever content you want to do, to counter the previous arguments of their viability in the thread. If a group wants to save those 10 seconds by bringing in a Merc or Sniper then more power to them but in the end I think there are more factors than just what DPS numbers they are pulling on paper. Maybe I do prescribe too much to the theory of bring the better player rather than rely on the class because with the current content we have, class will not make or break the group. This isn't a post saying don't buff Sorcs (they do need it) but rather an argument against those who feel Sorc is not viable for current content.

 

If I remember 4.0 though, the DPS spread between the ranged classes was much smaller and Mercs didn't have reflect so the options for ranged DPS were a bit more flexible. I didn't play before 4.0 though so I can't speak for the class balance then but I have heard from many people that Sorcs were king at one point.

 

Again, your somehow thinking I said they weren't viable. They are when you want to spend the time gearing it up. I subscribe to the school that a great DPS can play almost any spec or class and will adjust accordingly. In the end groups will bring the best DPS on the best DPS class because raiding sole goal is to kill it. As for DPS check it's a misnomer that it's burst based. Like 4.0 most of them are long enough that unless it does almost equal damage (Arsenal v IO) a burst spec isn't as good. Just like MM v Virulence on Styrak, Brontes, or Terror. I believe you are getting caught up on the term viable when what performs best is preferred and what raid teams want. And in any case, raid teams will continue to pick the great DPS who can play the better spec. As an aside, I always believe DPS who can only play one spec/class limit themselves and are merely good. Great DPS can play anything and will for the group which what matters more than selfishly wanting to play a class. But it is what it is.

Edited May 16, 2017 by FerkWork