Stacking of sniper AoE - worse than stacking of smash

[Screaming_Ziva]

What about when you have 4 Sorcs spamming Force Storm?

Force Storm is a little different. Sorcs can't move or do anything else while casting Force Storm. Snipers can drop Plasma Probe and then run away.

[Kirpputori]

If you nerf snipers then the other classes that have no issues with them will seem OP for a sniper to fight.

What are those classes? Only class i see winning a sniper is a sniper.

[Sargrith]

Just to clarify, you don't think Sins and Operatives have issues against Engineering Snipers?

 

Sins and operatives are pretty different. Ops have higher dps, self heals, lots of mobility that will get them through that slow. Sins are less able to deal with it. Still stealth does allow both to close without being burned down on the way, both have speed buffs that should be able to get them back after being knocked back and both have a way to be CC immune for a short time that will help too. I wont say its not an issue for sins at all, but its far less an issue for ops to be sure.

[Sargrith]

Force Storm is a little different. Sorcs can't move or do anything else while casting Force Storm. Snipers can drop Plasma Probe and then run away.

 

Force storm doesn't stop me from leaping on those Sorcs and giving them what for.

 

The idea that to be balance all guardians need is a mobility buff though, that is not correct. They need better defense too, more damage, some burst, and a way to pin you in place that gets by your CC immunity. Oh and they could use some CC immunity themselves...

 

Vangards....that need damage, defenses, some way to hold you in place, some way to break off if things go bad....they need a lot, more then even my beloved Guardians do.

[Ryuku-sama]

I can give you a few.

 

Vanguard Tank, trying to get to ANY enemies with a spam of plasmaprobe, once your jump is used is near impossible.

 

Scoundrels. Even double rolling will not get you out of 2 well placed plasma probes, leaving you dead in the water.

 

Guardian...I really dont need to say anything there.

 

HELL even playing another spec of sniper is a royal pain in the *** because due to the cover mechanic you just have to take the AOE for the full duration if you want to have any chance of fighting the attacking engi sniper.

 

The class needs a 9 second cooldown, it would not effect its rotation at all. Saying " oh it will hurt their rotation because people can get out of it too easily " would be like saying " interrupting a mercs boltstorm is bad for their rotation because it interrupts it" That is kind of the point. Rotations should be interruptable.

 

Due to mobility... and stuff I'd aim for a middle ground.. 9s is too much, but 0 is not better.. maybe a 4.5-5s CD would be best?

[Icykill_]

"If it wasn't broken, we shall break it. If it is balanced, we shall beat it until slow and painful death follows. If it is overpowered, it is working as intended." - Bioware 2015

 

I love your signature 😊

[mmmbuddah]

Due to mobility... and stuff I'd aim for a middle ground.. 9s is too much, but 0 is not better.. maybe a 4.5-5s CD would be best?

 

4,5 would only be ok if the slow was reduced.

[BaineOs]

4,5 would only be ok if the slow was reduced.

 

Wrong and so is everyone else who is still sticking to this cooldown and slow reduction thing. Put the range back to 5m, nerf the healing we receive on the ballistic shield.

 

Oh aye, I'll also throw in a freebe as I'm feeling generous today. Do people realise that we get a purge on 'movement imparing' effects with covered escape? So that's 1 every 20s. Bearing in mind we get a reset on covered escape as well.

 

So...countermeasures. We get a reset on countermeasures....and the re-establish range masterful utility also gives countermeasures a purge on all movement imparing effects.

 

Get rid of that countermeasures thing and bring back the 50% 3s movement buff on shiv...yup that would mean we get shiv back. But as operatives got overload shot and a way to make it a ranged skill...even though BW said operatives wouldn't have any ranged skills...

Edited April 7, 2017 by BaineOs

[Terrimando]

love how this thread turned into a nerf operative thread.

 

nobody even plays operatives. combat mechanics are clunky and animation are horrid.

[Romansonesix]

I think most agree, this patch is rough on melee. Ops and Sins have it a bit better due to roll and speed (which is why I'd rather have the lower cd over pw). Its most noticeable on pt and jugg. I love the jugg class and I personally think the damage is fine. Defensives suck. Saber reflect and focused defense were not brought up to 5.0 hp levels. That combined with mobility issues can make many players frustrated.

 

TTK has increased considerably and I believe that effect is just a matter of opinion. A high TTK and high heals makes for too many stalemates imo. I actually enjoy the all dps ranked matches atm though.

 

Snipers and mercs have it pretty good. That shouldn't be a debate. But most of the engineering discipline has been the same since launch. I wonder if simply giving some melee better mobility might be enough. I know in ranked it can be difficult just trying to keep los of a sniper/merc. If you can kite and los under ff and trust your team to provide damage, that can be just as beneficial.

 

TL:DR mobility for some melee might be enough (not the best solution but enough.)

[Ryuku-sama]

I love your signature 😊

 

Yeah..... It's been that way since 3.0...

 

4,5 would only be ok if the slow was reduced.

 

Nah... With proper mobility, you can get out in 1.5-2.0s... It's more than enough to have some time without the AoE up. A nice thing could be making the slow a stacking one... It lasts 1.5s and goes from 40% to 75% during the first 3s... This would make it getting out in the first few seconds easier then you'd be stuck afterward.

[Balameb]

Where do you get these metrics from? 9 sec CD and 40% slow. Where is the data that helps you decide that. You can't compare it to other classes because other classes are completely different. You are just pulling numbers out of thin air because you don't know how that affects every other class when you nerf something. When they nerf or buff something, all other classes are also affected in some way, it's why they are never able to get the balance just right.

Also just because you can't 1v1 something and kill it, doesn't mean it needs a nerf.

 

First is not because i can't kill something. Is because i(well, some classes) have NO CHANCE of killing something (this case, sniper). You can have the best Jugg or the best PT and the average sniper (all specs) needs to make several mistakes to loose. I prefer that every class have a CHANCE at every other class (DPS vs DPS at least). If that is not possible, then for every class there should be other that there is NO CHANCE to beat. What DPS class does the sniper have absolutely NO CHANCE to beat? I don't mean a class that CAN kill a sniper, i mean a class that puts snipers in the exact same position PTs and Jugg are against a sniper.

Now: why do i prefer the nerf over the buff? Well in this case Jugg for example has force charge, it works like charm even against sorc healers and arsenal Merc. Both are still a real big PITA to deal with, but i can relatively get and stay close to them. With a sniper there is no chance, even if i mad dash i get knocked back and with 70% slow 24/7 of probs i cannot run to them in time. What I think Jugg needs (my personal preference) is only two things, a new or better defensive cooldown (maybe a lower CD to Saber ward and/or better enraged defense) and an escape. None of those are game changer against a sniper.

 

 

Numbers:

9 seconds was proposed by several others and i asume is based in that plasma probe last 9 second. So you still have instant cast aoe 100% uptime dmg and slow. You only loose the relocate with that CD. Do juggs get to pop saber ward once it expires? NO? figures.

 

The 40% is simple. Why more? every other class i know with aoe slow is only 40% or lower. I will give you more, it could still be 70% for the target affected by your interrogation probe and 40% for all the others.

 

You can't say it affects your rotation that way.

 

So, I did not pull the numbers out of thin air; you may not like them but it is an OPINION and is based on what i play, see and investigate. We can still debate them, (again is just an opinion, and i'm not from BW) and general Sniper abilities also needs debating. But even with this numbers, you still have the upper hand; if not then show me why.

 

 

...

But I stopped playing my Merc when it became FOTM, so I've not player her since November. I'm not a FOTM player usually, so I put those classes on the shelf if they reach that status.

...

 

Seems like you may need to see you are now playing and defending a FOTM class in an even more FOTM spec.

 

The Fifth circle will start calling for you

[BaineOs]

Numbers:

9 seconds was proposed by several others and i asume is based in that plasma probe last 9 second. So you still have instant cast aoe 100% uptime dmg and slow. You only loose the relocate with that CD. Do juggs get to pop saber ward once it expires? NO? figures.

 

The 40% is simple. Why more? every other class i know with aoe slow is only 40% or lower. I will give you more, it could still be 70% for the target affected by your interrogation probe and 40% for all the others.

 

You can't say it affects your rotation that way.

 

So, I did not pull the numbers out of thin air; you may not like them but it is an OPINION and is based on what i play, see and investigate. We can still debate them, (again is just an opinion, and i'm not from BW) and general Sniper abilities also needs debating. But even with this numbers, you still have the upper hand; if not then show me why.

And again....nup. It's funny isn't it the way no-one was complaining about engineering until they buffed it's aoe range. By buffing it to 8m from 5 they've essentially doubled it's size.

 

Now just for reference, in case you don't know, in order to get that 2s stun, we need to have interrogation probe on the target, the target needs to be within the AOE of plasma probe and we have to use EMP Discharge. Now here's the thing, when the AOE was limited to 5m it was a very very close thing to actually get that 2s stun. The reason for that is it was still easy for someone to walk out of the area.

 

From the time you put PP down, you have the time of a single global cooldown to hit EMP Discharge and get that stun, so perhaps that explains to you just how quick people were able to escape the effects. Now I'm explaining the time frame concerning EMP Discharge to give you an idea as to how long people would normally be within the AOE itself, and therefore subjected to that 70% slow you all hate.

 

One of the gripes I used to get from others who tried engineering was they wouldn't always get that EMP discharge off in time, and so missed the stun. You had to be quick to get it, considering all the ways players can quickly escape the probe (i.e. skills and the like).

 

It's that 8m which I the problem. You do not need to slap a cooldown on PP or reduce the slow to 70%.

 

You just need to reduce the AOE back to 5m. That's it. I mean come on, do a search on these forums and you'll be hard pressed to find anyone that seriously suggested engineering needed to have plasma probe buffed to 8m (if there is anyone who said that...I'll help you shoot them!) There's a couple of other tweaks the Devs can do to the class in general to bring us more into line (already explained in other threads).

 

p.s. if you're a jug then you've always had problems against snipers, engineering especially. For the record, concealment operatives have normally been the ones we hate.

[Markark]

I agree.

 

That AOE is used in a VERY lazy way, two snipers just keep it active on a cap and there's no getting through it, and no capping even if you reach the objective.

 

Another semi-related note, CC's are ridiculously over-used, I spend some matches CC'd the entire time while my group's pummeled, if you get matched against 4 stealthers the game's over before it starts.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Markark

[Balameb]

And again....nup. It's funny isn't it the way no-one was complaining about engineering until they buffed it's aoe range. By buffing it to 8m from 5 they've essentially doubled it's size.

 

Now just for reference, in case you don't know, in order to get that 2s stun, we need to have interrogation probe on the target, the target needs to be within the AOE of plasma probe and we have to use EMP Discharge. Now here's the thing, when the AOE was limited to 5m it was a very very close thing to actually get that 2s stun. The reason for that is it was still easy for someone to walk out of the area.

 

From the time you put PP down, you have the time of a single global cooldown to hit EMP Discharge and get that stun, so perhaps that explains to you just how quick people were able to escape the effects. Now I'm explaining the time frame concerning EMP Discharge to give you an idea as to how long people would normally be within the AOE itself, and therefore subjected to that 70% slow you all hate.

 

One of the gripes I used to get from others who tried engineering was they wouldn't always get that EMP discharge off in time, and so missed the stun. You had to be quick to get it, considering all the ways players can quickly escape the probe (i.e. skills and the like).

 

It's that 8m which I the problem. You do not need to slap a cooldown on PP or reduce the slow to 70%.

 

You just need to reduce the AOE back to 5m. That's it. I mean come on, do a search on these forums and you'll be hard pressed to find anyone that seriously suggested engineering needed to have plasma probe buffed to 8m (if there is anyone who said that...I'll help you shoot them!) There's a couple of other tweaks the Devs can do to the class in general to bring us more into line (already explained in other threads).

 

p.s. if you're a jug then you've always had problems against snipers, engineering especially. For the record, concealment operatives have normally been the ones we hate.

 

First one thing: I only played a little at the end of 4.X and no PvP until 5 so only a few specs i got to know a little from before. I totally missed what people ask (or not asked) about nerf buff for each class.

My opinion here is only based on my 5.X experience.

 

Now, i do know you need the IP target to be in the AOE for the 2s stun on EMPD; you can read i added the keep 70% slow on the IP target and 40% for every other enemy. And the 9 sec CD only avoids relocation so the complete rotation can be done.

 

So you say that radio should solve the problem and you may be right (the increase from 5 to 8 is massive). Actually what you describe while totally different to what i porposed has the same goal: Give every potential targets an OPORTUNITY.

Hey I may even agree with making it 5m as a better choice than mine. But here, some FOTM lovers will complain that then sometimes the target escapes. Or some Eng lovers will say that they have the right to be so FOTM because its their turn.

[Icykill_]

First is not because i can't kill something. Is because i(well, some classes) have NO CHANCE of killing something (this case, sniper). You can have the best Jugg or the best PT and the average sniper (all specs) needs to make several mistakes to loose. I prefer that every class have a CHANCE at every other class (DPS vs DPS at least). If that is not possible, then for every class there should be other that there is NO CHANCE to beat. What DPS class does the sniper have absolutely NO CHANCE to beat? I don't mean a class that CAN kill a sniper, i mean a class that puts snipers in the exact same position PTs and Jugg are against a sniper.

Now: why do i prefer the nerf over the buff? Well in this case Jugg for example has force charge, it works like charm even against sorc healers and arsenal Merc. Both are still a real big PITA to deal with, but i can relatively get and stay close to them. With a sniper there is no chance, even if i mad dash i get knocked back and with 70% slow 24/7 of probs i cannot run to them in time. What I think Jugg needs (my personal preference) is only two things, a new or better defensive cooldown (maybe a lower CD to Saber ward and/or better enraged defense) and an escape. None of those are game changer against a sniper.

 

 

Numbers:

9 seconds was proposed by several others and i asume is based in that plasma probe last 9 second. So you still have instant cast aoe 100% uptime dmg and slow. You only loose the relocate with that CD. Do juggs get to pop saber ward once it expires? NO? figures.

 

The 40% is simple. Why more? every other class i know with aoe slow is only 40% or lower. I will give you more, it could still be 70% for the target affected by your interrogation probe and 40% for all the others.

 

You can't say it affects your rotation that way.

 

So, I did not pull the numbers out of thin air; you may not like them but it is an OPINION and is based on what i play, see and investigate. We can still debate them, (again is just an opinion, and i'm not from BW) and general Sniper abilities also needs debating. But even with this numbers, you still have the upper hand; if not then show me why.

 

 

Seems like you may need to see you are now playing and defending a FOTM class in an even more FOTM spec.

 

The Fifth circle will start calling for you

 

Three things to add because I don't want to keep saying the same things over.

 

Snipers aren't FOTM. I see either no snipers or one to two snipers at most per match. There are nearly always more Sins, Sorc Healers and definitely Mercs. One or two snipers doesn't make a class FOTM 🙄

 

A lot of FOTM situations are self fulfilling prophecies. The more people QQ and call for nerfs, the more people try out the class because they want the easiest solution or class to play, which is how things become FOTM to start with. But most of these snipers are crap and will learn soon enough that they aren't as easy to play as they think and will get killed by better players. Like a previous poster said, he's seen all this QQing about the class, so he's going to pull his off the shelf. This is how class stacking happens and we end up in a FOTM situation.

 

Lightning Sorcs can't kill anyone who has a clue about what they are doing. That's my only response to your QQ about not being able to kill a sniper on your Jugg. Sorry but one or two classes who can't kill a certain class doesn't make that class OP or FOTM.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Icykill_

[Icykill_]

First one thing: I only played a little at the end of 4.X and no PvP until 5 so only a few specs i got to know a little from before.... My opinion here is only based on my 5.X experience.

 

I think you've just made my point about it being a get some experience, learn tactics and learn to play better issue.

You come in here and say snipers are FOTM, which they aren't. Then you say you can't kill them on your Jugg or PT. now you say you've only played s little pvp at the end of 4.x and no pvp until 5.x.

I'm sorry but you can't expect me to take you seriously when you've had jack all experience in pvp.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

And again....nup. It's funny isn't it the way no-one was complaining about engineering until they buffed it's aoe range. By buffing it to 8m from 5 they've essentially doubled it's size.

 

Now just for reference, in case you don't know, in order to get that 2s stun, we need to have interrogation probe on the target, the target needs to be within the AOE of plasma probe and we have to use EMP Discharge. Now here's the thing, when the AOE was limited to 5m it was a very very close thing to actually get that 2s stun. The reason for that is it was still easy for someone to walk out of the area.

 

From the time you put PP down, you have the time of a single global cooldown to hit EMP Discharge and get that stun, so perhaps that explains to you just how quick people were able to escape the effects. Now I'm explaining the time frame concerning EMP Discharge to give you an idea as to how long people would normally be within the AOE itself, and therefore subjected to that 70% slow you all hate.

 

One of the gripes I used to get from others who tried engineering was they wouldn't always get that EMP discharge off in time, and so missed the stun. You had to be quick to get it, considering all the ways players can quickly escape the probe (i.e. skills and the like).

 

It's that 8m which I the problem. You do not need to slap a cooldown on PP or reduce the slow to 70%.

 

You just need to reduce the AOE back to 5m. That's it. I mean come on, do a search on these forums and you'll be hard pressed to find anyone that seriously suggested engineering needed to have plasma probe buffed to 8m (if there is anyone who said that...I'll help you shoot them!) There's a couple of other tweaks the Devs can do to the class in general to bring us more into line (already explained in other threads).

 

p.s. if you're a jug then you've always had problems against snipers, engineering especially. For the record, concealment operatives have normally been the ones we hate.

 

I do agree with you, their defensives are way to strong, especially for a ranged class no less who has so many abilities and options to keep melee away from them too boot!

 

Furthermore, your right, the trouble melee are facing against snipers is nothing new. But throwing a spammable 70% aoe slow on top of all the considerable tools all snipers already possess vs melee simply makes engineering snipers the worst of the lot vs melee.

 

You're a diehard sniper player, and I can respect that, I'm the same way about marauders, so I'm not going to try to convince you that plasma probe needs a nerf, I know you could not be convinced of that so no sence wasting the time.

 

Just for the record, prior to 5.0 I was a advocate for snipers getting their proper do, not because I played snipers but because they were the only other pure DPS class in the game [i play a carnage marauder] and I felt a solidarity with them because we can do nothing but dps and proior to 5.0 neither one of the classes could heal themselves so i always felt we were kinda in the same boat.

 

But let me just say this, as a pvp melee player, plasma probe's effects are on WZs are extreme to a level that no other ability in the game can match and is far too encompassing in it's effects and magnitude.

 

What it was before, what the various states this abiltity have been over the years, is largely irrelivent because really most people just care about now. And right now it sucking all the joy and fun out of playing a melee in pvp. I don't imagine you actually care about that, doesn't really effect you, but it very much effects the countless melee players who are already dealing with the ranged superioity of this meta. This is why so many melee players are speaking out.

 

My purpose in posting, as stated, is not to try to convince you of the OPness of it, you don't think it is. Where as i, and many other thing it is the epitome of Opness. My purpose in posting is merely to lend voice to that opinion in the hopes that the devs will take note and make adjustments to this ability, and yes, I'm calling for a nerf.

 

Let me assure you, and mind you, I respect your right to your opinions, but let me assure you, you are not going to convince those of us who pvp melee mainly that this ability is fine as it is. Even if you strip every last defensive that the sniper has, its not going to change the complete lack of control so many melee are being faced with the incessant use of plasma probe. There is a reason nine out of 10 snipers you see in pvp are all of a sudden engineering, and that reason is not because they are fair and balanced, quite the opposite.

 

It is a disgusting stare of things, wherein in someone has to play 75-85 percent of a warzone in perpetual slows, unable to try and break LOS lines in time because they are moving like snails. Movement purge breakers are meaningless when a new effect can be placed right back on you one second after breaking the former, with the full assurance that that will continue to happen on every single such attempt. Failing to acknowlege that fact, trying to dance around it, changes nothing, because no one is being fooled. We know what we are experiencing WZ after WZ, day after day, the same lame, cheesy tactics that are largely inescapeable because of the reality of their spammable nature and how that makes using movement purge breakers virtually pointless.

 

Yes, its true, people werent complaining about engineering snipers like they are now before 5.0. There are a few very good reasons for that.

 

1 - Snipers were not throwing around stronger dps than melee like they are now.

2 - Snipers didn't have the insane defensives they do now.

3 - Snipers weren't healing themselves as a supposedly "pure" dps class.

4 - Plasma probe wasn't 8 meters before, it was 5.

5 - And this one is unfortunate as really the sniper is totally blameless on this one, people weren't being annhilaited and out gunning by mercs every three feet who are walking trinities. This meta is so ranged orientated it's disgusting. Melee are so clearly the underdogs. So the mercs had already been leaving a bad taste on our mouths. The CCs, the stuns, the knockbacks, the roots and the slows, were already incessant, and than and im not sure when it happened or why even because it wasn't until well after 5.0 dropped, you started seeing all these 70% slow aoes popping everywhere.

 

What do you expect people to do? Not use movement purge breakers until a sniper comes along? Just let mercs continually slow us with their rotational slows? How many movement purge breakers could someone possibly have to come even remotely close to be sufficient to give them some semblance of bodily control.

 

Slowing or even rooting a ranged dps is not anything like when it happens to a melee. Hell, it;s mostly irrelivent, melee aint getting out of range of them anyways, so who cares, doesnt effect their uptime. melee go from slow to slow, to root to knock back to stun to blinded every three seconds. Their abilitity to continue to dps effectively is constantly being interupted. And now they have spammable AOE 70% slows following them everywhere they go virtually, at very least anywhere that matters to an objective and there isnt one blessed thing they can do to stop it. Unless we can stop a sniper from spamming that cheese over and over and over again on nodes, on channel points, on squared you need to stand in, what on earth could we possibly do to "work around it" besides go run and hide?

 

You're not being fair. I'm not asking you to assent to a nerf, who the hell wants to be nerfed, but at least be honest. At least call a spade and spade because that is at least respectable. It is impossible to believe someone who is as intelligent as you clearly are, not to recognize the fact that in reality, in most instances, melee are helpless to defend against the incessant spamming and replacing of plasma probes. It's not like an engin sniper has to wait for the duration of the plasma probe he just set to expire before he can plant a new one and thusly, that makes indefensible by use of a movement purge breaker. The second a melee uses it, they just plant a brand new one right on top of them all over again.

 

I see so many merc players manning up and saying, yeah, we're [mercs] are OP as ***. Does that make dealing with thier OPness any easier? Not in the slightest, but at least it's respectable and I give them alot of credit for it.

 

To be fair to you, I see you are willing to do just that with regard to snipers defenses, which is something. But, lets consider this. Snipers are hard to stick too for melee, that's no secret and keeping melee out of attack range is the greatest defensive of all.

 

The lose of some defenses, is not going to in anyway effect how game breaking plasma probe currently is in PVP. If you can't channel, that is many maps, you simply cannot win.

 

There is a reason you are seeing so many Engin snipers, and it's because the team that has them or more of them, in most instances is the team that's gonna win.

 

But the topic here is no defensives, it's plasma probes, so talking about defenses, can be seen as possibly a strategy of deflection, ergo, change the topic.

 

You have stated your opinion on the matter and I respect your right to it, and that's why i'm not trying to change your mind.

 

It is my honest and true opinion that plasma probe as is is FAR to strong and is in need of a nerf. Not going into too many specifics of what a proper nerf would be, I would only add that it's slow effect should not exceed the slow effect of the next strongest slow effect behind plasma probe. If the second strongest slow effect ability found in another class is 40% [which i believe it is] than plasma probe should not have a slow effect higher than 40% [at least in pvp].

 

Take this for what it's worth, whether you care or not is entirely up to you, plasma probe as it currently is now is ruining pvp for melee. There are so many people voicing this same opinion. You might consider why that might be.

 

I can't speak for other servers, but on the Shadowlands, plasma probe useage is incessant, you have snipers who are barely dpsing but rather just following groups around so that when they get to an objective they just start spamming the hell out of it. I'm shocked sometimes at how little dps i see engineering snipers putting out. It's because thier ability as masters of the battlefield is not their dps, but rather to render large swaths of an enemy team continually in effectual.

 

If you can't channel you lose the wz.

 

That's fair.

[BaineOs]

A lot of what you've said dude is to do with the increase from 5m to 8m. That 8m is a HUGE buff objectively. 5m was about right with the 70% slow. That 8m is such a huge area it's just far too inviting for people to just spam it, by reducing it to 5m alone the effectiveness of spamming it will be significantly lower. That's why I do not favour a nerf to the slow or slapping a cooldown on it.

 

They have to reduce the radius back to 5m, both a cooldown and slow reduction will have no impact whatsoever when it comes to capping. With our defences as they are...look, the both of us know the sniper's defences are in a good position right now. They are going to be forced to reduce the radius, if BW don't....well....might as well pack up and find another MMO.

 

You increase the radius of an already powerful highly objective skill like plasma probe (which they have done), that in itself is going to cause soooo many problems. That's why a lot of requests/votes to slap a cooldown on plasma probe or reduce the slow are simply misguided.

 

Not quoting your post because it was insanely long but responding to your 5 numbered points.

 

1) the passive skill we got in 5.0 gives a dps boost with EMP discharge and plasma probe. Not going to put it in detail, but essentially the radius of PP isn't exactly going to hurt with this. Even if the damage is too much with a reduce radius of 5m, if we're dealing too much damage....hey np, then nerf us. but not too much to make us useless. You and I both know BW go heavy handed, we do NOT want to go back to the 3.0 era. They absolutely gutted the spec back then, it was not a good time.

2) That's very true, which is why I favour the removal of countermeasures and a reduced amount of healing with ballistic shield

3) Totally agree with you, even if ballistic shield is on a 3m cooldown, it's still a 60% heal. We have a 10% heal utility on covered escape. The covered escape heal is pretty much all we needed. Get rid of the 60% heal, or at the very least drop it to 20% or somet like that, and it'll be fine. Realistically, we only need a bit of healing because the insanity of the sorc healers. With sorc healers being OP in 4.0 it meant melee had a lot more uptime against us, that does cause us problems. There's such a fine line on balance between melee and ranged, quite often that balance can be destroyed even if our two classes are left completely alone.

4) Totally agree, which is why I favour it being moved back to 5m. Anything else is simply not justifiable, it MUST be put back to 5m whilst keeping that 70% slow.

5) You nerf mercs, as again we both know and agree they need to be, and you resolve that point.

 

I think I'm being very fair considering I'm agreeing, and have always been whilst posting in these two threads, that plasma probe as it is, needs to change. What everyone appears to be missing, is the careful balance that's required for plasma probe. That skill is VERY important to the engineering spec, it's pretty much it's heart and soul. You destroy plasma probe and you pretty much destroy the unique feel of engineering that's existed since launch.

Edited April 8, 2017 by BaineOs

[Balameb]

Three things to add because I don't want to keep saying the same things over.

 

Snipers aren't FOTM. I see either no snipers or one to two snipers at most per match. There are nearly always more Sins, Sorc Healers and definitely Mercs. One or two snipers doesn't make a class FOTM 🙄

 

A lot of FOTM situations are self fulfilling prophecies. The more people QQ and call for nerfs, the more people try out the class because they want the easiest solution or class to play, which is how things become FOTM to start with. But most of these snipers are crap and will learn soon enough that they aren't as easy to play as they think and will get killed by better players. Like a previous poster said, he's seen all this QQing about the class, so he's going to pull his off the shelf. This is how class stacking happens and we end up in a FOTM situation.

 

Agree, and sadly it is happening. Snipers are getting FOTM, more so Eng. And the biggest problem is that you don't need a stack of 4 Snipers to make a living hell of a WZ. One eng is a PITA in some maps, two just make most WZs unplayable.

 

 

Lightning Sorcs can't kill anyone who has a clue about what they are doing. That's my only response to your QQ about not being able to kill a sniper on your Jugg. Sorry but one or two classes who can't kill a certain class doesn't make that class OP or FOTM.

 

Why are you talking about Sorcs? Are those a class that always win in a 1v1 against a Sniper even if the sniper is a similar skilled player and makes no mistakes? Because that is what i asked.

 

I think you've just made my point about it being a get some experience, learn tactics and learn to play better issue.

You come in here and say snipers are FOTM, which they aren't. Then you say you can't kill them on your Jugg or PT. now you say you've only played s little pvp at the end of 4.x and no pvp until 5.x.

I'm sorry but you can't expect me to take you seriously when you've had jack all experience in pvp.

 

By now i think even you already agrees that Jugg/PT are the ones with more trouble against snipers and yet i'm a case of learn to play better. Well, several times i have admited to be a new player, asked questions, make opinions and i was corrected if i made a mistake; i never said i'm the owner of the truth or that my opinion is better than others.

 

I may have missed the rule that says that people who did not play pvp prior to 5.0 are not entitled to an opinion even if you are debating about something of 5.X. Please point me to that rule and i will not share my opinions.

 

Now. It looks like you have a problem with me. I don't know what i did to you.

You started attacking my opinion. What i don't undertand is that my numbers (the "nerf" i said i would like) are similar to many others opinion yet you fixated on my numbers.

Have i offended you? It was latter, but did my coment about the fifth circle bother you? I was aiming at a friendly joke (i did not say that you should burn in the fifth circle) but clearly i failed. Just say so, and i will edit the post.

[Icykill_]

Agree, and sadly it is happening. Snipers are getting FOTM, more so Eng. And the biggest problem is that you don't need a stack of 4 Snipers to make a living hell of a WZ. One eng is a PITA in some maps, two just make most WZs unplayable.

 

Why are you talking about Sorcs? Are those a class that always win in a 1v1 against a Sniper even if the sniper is a similar skilled player and makes no mistakes? Because that is what i asked.

 

By now i think even you already agrees that Jugg/PT are the ones with more trouble against snipers and yet i'm a case of learn to play better. Well, several times i have admited to be a new player, asked questions, make opinions and i was corrected if i made a mistake; i never said i'm the owner of the truth or that my opinion is better than others.

 

I may have missed the rule that says that people who did not play pvp prior to 5.0 are not entitled to an opinion even if you are debating about something of 5.X. Please point me to that rule and i will not share my opinions.

 

Now. It looks like you have a problem with me. I don't know what i did to you.

You started attacking my opinion. What i don't undertand is that my numbers (the "nerf" i said i would like) are similar to many others opinion yet you fixated on my numbers.

Have i offended you? It was latter, but did my coment about the fifth circle bother you? I was aiming at a friendly joke (i did not say that you should burn in the fifth circle) but clearly i failed. Just say so, and i will edit the post.

 

I'm sorry, I don't have an issue with you personally. I have an issue with people theory crafting numbers that they dont understand. I didn't mean to target you specifically, sorry about that.

 

I still don't think you understand the meaning of FOTM classes. If something is flavour of the month then a large majority of players will have them in WZs, usually more than four. Having one or two snipers doesn't even bring them close to FOTM status.

 

I also used Sorcs as an example only of a class that can't kill "anything", not just snipers. I took the most extreme case to make the point that just because a Jugg or PT can't kill a sniper, that doesn't mean the class is OP. My point was if you were to follow the logic that it's not fair that a Jugg can't kill a sniper, so the sniper must be OP, then Sorcs can basically say ever class is OP because they can't kill anything with half a brain.

I do agree that Juggs are one of those classes that have issues with snipers, I'd already said that, so when someone complains and uses a Jugg as an example of a class that can't kill a sniper, it's like saying I know my Sorc can't kill anything, but I'm going to use it as an example of why you should nerf other classes.

 

Of course you are entitled to your opinion. It's just when you've hardly any experience and you start throwing numbers around that you don't really understand or you repeat numbers and make arguments of why to nerf this class without fully understanding everything, you are fuelling the mob mentality to nerf something that doesn't need it.

 

Like I've said before, most of this issue can be overcome without nerfs if people just learn to use some common sense and tactics.

 

This isn't an attack on you and normally I read my drafts and reword before I post because I don't like making it personal or an attack on someone. Please accept my apology.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Icykill_

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

A lot of what you've said dude is to do with the increase from 5m to 8m. That 8m is a HUGE buff objectively. 5m was about right with the 70% slow. That 8m is such a huge area it's just far too inviting for people to just spam it, by reducing it to 5m alone the effectiveness of spamming it will be significantly lower. That's why I do not favour a nerf to the slow or slapping a cooldown on it.

 

They have to reduce the radius back to 5m, both a cooldown and slow reduction will have no impact whatsoever when it comes to capping. With our defences as they are...look, the both of us know the sniper's defences are in a good position right now. They are going to be forced to reduce the radius, if BW don't....well....might as well pack up and find another MMO.

 

You increase the radius of an already powerful highly objective skill like plasma probe (which they have done), that in itself is going to cause soooo many problems. That's why a lot of requests/votes to slap a cooldown on plasma probe or reduce the slow are simply misguided.

 

Not quoting your post because it was insanely long but responding to your 5 numbered points.

 

1) the passive skill we got in 5.0 gives a dps boost with EMP discharge and plasma probe. Not going to put it in detail, but essentially the radius of PP isn't exactly going to hurt with this. Even if the damage is too much with a reduce radius of 5m, if we're dealing too much damage....hey np, then nerf us. but not too much to make us useless. You and I both know BW go heavy handed, we do NOT want to go back to the 3.0 era. They absolutely gutted the spec back then, it was not a good time.

2) That's very true, which is why I favour the removal of countermeasures and a reduced amount of healing with ballistic shield

3) Totally agree with you, even if ballistic shield is on a 3m cooldown, it's still a 60% heal. We have a 10% heal utility on covered escape. The covered escape heal is pretty much all we needed. Get rid of the 60% heal, or at the very least drop it to 20% or somet like that, and it'll be fine. Realistically, we only need a bit of healing because the insanity of the sorc healers. With sorc healers being OP in 4.0 it meant melee had a lot more uptime against us, that does cause us problems. There's such a fine line on balance between melee and ranged, quite often that balance can be destroyed even if our two classes are left completely alone.

4) Totally agree, which is why I favour it being moved back to 5m. Anything else is simply not justifiable, it MUST be put back to 5m whilst keeping that 70% slow.

5) You nerf mercs, as again we both know and agree they need to be, and you resolve that point.

 

I think I'm being very fair considering I'm agreeing, and have always been whilst posting in these two threads, that plasma probe as it is, needs to change. What everyone appears to be missing, is the careful balance that's required for plasma probe. That skill is VERY important to the engineering spec, it's pretty much it's heart and soul. You destroy plasma probe and you pretty much destroy the unique feel of engineering that's existed since launch.

 

I have to say, I was very impressed by your response, truly. It cannot be said that you are not open to ideas and like Icy, you are very capable of agreeing to disagree. Your manner is very respectable.

 

From your response, it seems to me that you are aware of snipers being a bit overtuned. it may well be that reducing it to 5 meters would perhaps make the situation more workable, my concern however is less about its radius than its slow effect, I really feel that's the problem. You know if it had a cd and and a new one could not be put down until the one presently in effect ran its course [9 seconds for example, althought I think a bit longer would be preferable, say 12 seconds], this would make it so that the usage of a movement imparing breaker is not in vain. Of greater concern is the issue that it makes channeling imposable due to it's being able to be kept in effect 100% of the time, which is a big problem when dealing with WZ objectives. So any change that would make it so a full channel time was possible would go a long way in keeping it more in it's present state.

 

The smaller radius would unquestioningly bring relief as it wouldn't make so pretty much all the close proximity areas are covered by the slow. I'm simply not sure without having a realistic idea of how it would actually play out.

Although if this was a revision that also lessening their defensive, surviability, that might be sufficient enough so as to keep the 70% slow because snipers wouldn't be so able than to keep the aoe slow 100% of the time because they couldn't ignore incoming damage as they can now and need to pay more attention to their own survivability/threats.

 

Add to this that in order to put down the aoe effectivily they would have to venture far closer to the desired area and thus be closer to potential dangers in mass. Although im not sure from how far away they are able to plant their plasma probes so on that point I'm not sure if that would be an effect with a smaller radius.

 

I mean these sorts of revisions could be enough to give melee some breathing room. I'm sure you can appreciate how frustraiting it could be for melee to be slowed 80% of the time heh. It just sucks to feel like you hardly ever in control of ones physical motion. Loss of mobiliy for melee dps is a direct dps loss.

 

Breaking LOS is one of the very few ways a melee can get some protection from ranged attackers, the slow as severe as 70% really effects makes that a much less viable form of dealing with ranged attackers. WZs have devolved into virtual fireing squads when melee need to be in very obvious and specific areas where objectives take place. Voidstar being the worse offender. Melee need to be at the door in order to defend, and need to be at the door in order to try and plant bombs a majority of the time. Taking constant damage, being much less able to keep up with the movement of enemies in close proximity and causing an inability to stay in range of their melee attacks, and having to eat so much ranged incoming damage [fireing squads], these near constant states being felt by melee with such frequency only furthers the inbalances between ranged and melee.

 

Unfortuately Instaces where there are more than one engin sniper [which these days is extremely common] overcoming a smaller radius change as they can just plant them side by side.

 

As is, in WZs with more than one engin snipers, people just start dropping from the wz cause they know what they are in for. The last thing pvp needs is a dwindling PVP player base.

 

Objectively, I'm not sure what middle ground would be amiable to both parties, I'm not sure if there even is one. As you've pointed out a true balance for all classes in PVP is a pipe dream, it will never happen. There will always be certain classes perform better than others in a pvp enviornment , as there have always been some. All I can say is that in the present state melee are having a hard time keeping up with their ranged fellows, and the level of enjoyment playing melee in pvp has dwindled notably in 5.0.

 

I sincerely hope tweeks can be found that can bring things to a more even ground between ranged and melee.

Nothing matters more than having fun, that is the point of playing games!

 

Some good ideas worth exploring.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

 

Like I've said before, most of this issue can be overcome without nerfs if people just learn to use some common sense and tactics.

 

Respectfully Icy, this particular situation with plasma prove cannot be overcome with common sense and tactics, and it's not just juggs and pts. Even Baine acknowledges this.

 

Snipers are far too overtuned vs melee. Mercs are bad enough. When you are dealing with a situation where it is the ccmmon everyday state of things where in melee are coming up against teams jam packed with mercs and snipers, there is far too much Opness to overcome. You can say that that is the situation with any circumstance of class stacking but the reality is you're not seeing class stacking of any other classes more than mercs and snipers on a regular basis. There is a reason for that and that reason is because they are OP. Something has to give because melee are getting fed up already with the ranged superiority factor.

 

Melee players simply aren't going to put up with this situation indefinately, fair or otherwise. People are dropping from WZs like flies when they see they are going up against groups jam packed with mercs and engineering snipers.

 

There are certain tactics that have some effect in trying to deal with mercs DCDs which are insanely overtunned. The tactics are particularly good generally speaking but sometimes they take the edge off. There is no strategy most melee players can employ to overcome plasma probes broken design. It is far to powerful with it's spammable nature, lack of CD, and ease of setting. It overcomes any movement imparing breakers in a split second and simply continues a second later unabated. Perma stealth helps with it to some degree unless it is placed directly on the sniper themself, which is rather common. Melee without perma stealth are completely screwed.

 

This ability so clearly OP and unfair to melee players in it's current state that I cannot see a more justifyable reason for a nerf if ever there was one. Simply put, it is making life miserable for melee players, it's use is rampant and makes any objectives requireing a channel impossible. That alone makes it game breaking. There is no skill in it's use required and no remotely reliable counter measure to offset it's wide spread effects other than death of the sniper in question and given their insane defensives and high survivability that's easier said than done. Snipers can be killed, there is no question about it, but it is time consuming in the extreme and for melee a lot of the time it's virtually impossible if the sniper is not outmanned and is remotely competant in the class.

 

Nerfs are not unholy things and sometimes they are justified, if that wasn't the case we'd still be dealing with smash monkeys and 4.0 sorcs. Carnage marauders would still have an extra 3 percent alacrity for free and assassins would still be parsing at 11k with ease.

 

This isn't personal. This is mechanics.. Melee players are not simply going to resign themselves to thier fate with regard to this. It's that bad. If it stays this way things are only going to get worse. Getting stuck out in the open regularly, while 70% slowed, with litttle hope of employing any sort of effective breaking of LOS with the kinds of fireing squads that are rampant in every wz between mercs and snipers is going to result melee players simply giving up. They drop like flies already. - Not everyone wants to play a fury mara.

 

We cannot have fun like this. It's really just that simple. Ranged have every advantage over melee in this meta. No one wants to spend 85% percent of every WZ slowed while getting targeted by firing squads and it's even worse in arenas. Something has to give.

[jedcjedcjedc]

Snipers aren't FOTM

To paraphrase a game here "you're lying morgan!".

Edited April 9, 2017 by jedcjedcjedc

[Icykill_]

To paraphrase a game here "you're lying morgan!".

 

Tell me how 1-2 snipers per match makes them FOTM? But 3 Sorc healers or 4 Sins or 3 Maras don't make them FOTM. I see way more of those combinations than I see 3 snipers.