This is why PVP is unbalanced.

[shyroman]

its not healers per se its just this games perpetual problem with class/spec stacking. One or two sorc healers on the other team? No problem, but 4 sorc healers on the other team cross healing each other and well, nothing is probably gonna die since they're just gonna heal each other. This isn't really just a healer issue though because fighting a lot of anything is gonna suck, like 4 mercs or 4 snipers on the same team.

 

Except the op's screenshot had 4 healers on his team and they got killed a lot because the other team's dps knew what they were doing.

[wainot-keel]

I don't know why, he's not wrong. Unkillable healers are ruining pvp right now.

 

What the screenshot showed was the opposite. The team with most healers (four) plus a PT with 1.2 mil protection suffered the most deaths. Lost the match. And got triple capped.

 

What is ruining pvp right now in this regard is truly awful dps. That's what. Not healers. Matchmaking sucks, but that always sucked so nothing new.

 

Bad dps are infesting WZs. Last week, in Odessen proving ground with my operative healer I managed to hold out, by myself, a node against a mara and a sniper. The entire round.

Operative healer is the worst class for single target healing and yet no issues surviving their "focus" if you can call it that. I just put my back against a pillar and that was it. Sniper didn't even try to push me off the node to claim it for themselves.

[Bobby_McDonald]

I don't know why, he's not wrong. Unkillable healers are ruining pvp right now.

 

If healers are unkillable, than your team has not enough dps. There is no match without this marauders standing still and turning slowly while using basic attacks. Sometimes you have more of them, sometimes you have less. The more you have, the less likely it gets, that you can do more dps than the healer can heal.

 

I recommend you to play some matches as healer yourself before you say that healers are unkillable. You will see that in some matches four dps can not harm you and you can laugh about them. And then there are matches where just two dps can easily kill you if make even the smallest mistake. Or they just stun you and kill all your mates.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Bobby_McDonald

[Vember]

What is ruining pvp right now in this regard is truly awful dps. That's what. Not healers. Matchmaking sucks, but that always sucked so nothing new.

 

 

I don't know that I'd call dps awful. It takes a massive coordination effort by multiple dps to kill one unguarded sorcerer healer in regs. I'll admit I'm legit surprised that so many died with four healers in a group, unless they were just ignoring each other, because that has certainly not been my experience at all. Or there were a ton of mercs focus firing.

 

My experience in wz with multiple healers is that no one dies, ever, and with the prevalence of sorc healers these days more and more matches are turning out like this.

 

 

I recommend you to play some matches as healer yourself

 

I have tried a while back and I'm terrible at it. I have, however, racked up 1 million plus protection on my plasmatech for healers that ended matches with zero deaths. That just seems absurd to me.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Vember

[shyroman]

I don't know that I'd call dps awful. It takes a massive coordination effort by multiple dps to kill one unguarded sorcerer healer in regs. I'll admit I'm legit surprised that so many died with four healers in a group, unless they were just ignoring each other, because that has certainly not been my experience at all. Or there were a ton of mercs focus firing.

 

My experience in wz with multiple healers is that no one dies, ever, and with the prevalence of sorc healers these days more and more matches are turning out like this.

 

2 decent dps (putting out 3k or more dps over an entire match) can easily kill an unguarded sorc healer as long as they know what their stun/interrupt skills are. Obviously the more skilled the healer, the more dps the 2 dps will have to put out, but once you get into the 4k dps range, most healers will fall over and die. Only problem is that so many struggle to get above 1.5k dps, and I don't see much get over 2.5k dps.

[Vember]

2 decent dps (putting out 3k or more dps over an entire match) can easily kill an unguarded sorc healer as long as they know what their stun/interrupt skills are. Obviously the more skilled the healer, the more dps the 2 dps will have to put out, but once you get into the 4k dps range, most healers will fall over and die. Only problem is that so many struggle to get above 1.5k dps, and I don't see much get over 2.5k dps.

 

It's hard to get that kind of dps unless you're dot spreading, and that's just fluff. You rarely see it, while you will see healers pumping out hps like crazy. Healers are overtuned, and need adjusting.

[shyroman]

It's hard to get that kind of dps unless you're dot spreading, and that's just fluff. You rarely see it, while you will see healers pumping out hps like crazy. Healers are overtuned, and need adjusting.

 

It really isn't that hard at all for purely single target specs (most of my experience is with sharpshooter and combat, but I've queued with people playing gunnery or tactics), 3k is fairly easy, 4k is where it gets a bit more difficult but if you do aoe, then even 4k becomes pretty easy.

Edited March 13, 2017 by shyroman

[Vember]

It really isn't that hard at all for purely single target specs (most of my experience is with sharpshooter and combat, but I've queued with people playing gunnery or tactics), 3k is fairly easy, 4k is where it gets a bit more difficult but if you do aoe, then even 4k becomes pretty easy.

 

All the dps in the game must suck then, because I rarely see it. I imagine if I were a merc or combat sent left alone to dps whoever I wanted I could reach those numbers, but what you're describing require damn near perfect conditions for the dps, conditions that the healers just don't need to achieve superior results. Aoe specs, especially dot spreading specs can easily reach that dps, but it's meaningless, low pressure damage.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Vember

[shyroman]

All the dps in the game must suck then, because I rarely see it. I imagine if I were a merc or combat sent left alone to dps whoever I wanted I could reach those numbers, but what you're describing require damn near perfect conditions for the dps, conditions that the healers just don't need to achieve superior results. Aoe specs, especially dot spreading specs can easily reach that dps, but it's meaningless, low pressure damage.

 

Yes actually, most do suck, so few people can do even 50% of what each class is capable of dps wise. You don't even have to be left alone to do those numbers, just cycle through cooldowns well and have good positioning (not always standing in the middle of enemy team's ranged as a sent, or using pillars and los opportunities). You just need to not die much to achieve those numbers. Also, just because it is easier to achieve those numbers as a healer, that doesn't make them overpowered, because the limit of what they can do really isn't that much higher.

[Schoock]

All the dps in the game must suck then, because I rarely see it. I imagine if I were a merc or combat sent left alone to dps whoever I wanted I could reach those numbers, but what you're describing require damn near perfect conditions for the dps, conditions that the healers just don't need to achieve superior results. Aoe specs, especially dot spreading specs can easily reach that dps, but it's meaningless, low pressure damage.

 

Achieving 3k DPS in a fight with support is more like a decency minimum, not some extraordinary requirement.

 

And I can't tell you the number of times I've seen healers doing way less than half my healing, even when they were all along with me. (And I'm not even a very good healer, to begin with.) But even with good healers in the group, I can mostly perform within like 10-20% percent of their HPS, not failing to get at least like half their numbers.

 

Can you (or any of these "healers are so op" people) say the same about your damage?

[Bobby_McDonald]

All the dps in the game must suck then, because I rarely see it. I imagine if I were a merc or combat sent left alone to dps whoever I wanted I could reach those numbers, but what you're describing require damn near perfect conditions for the dps, conditions that the healers just don't need to achieve superior results. Aoe specs, especially dot spreading specs can easily reach that dps, but it's meaningless, low pressure damage.

 

You can do more than 10k on a pvp dummy with bolster and as a clicker easily.

 

In a wz you will have to keybind because of all the movements and deffs and stuns will decrease your dps.

 

But still if you don't reach around 5-6k in a novare or voidstar zerg, then you are not using your whole potential. And no, this is not dot-spread, dot-guys even do more.

 

Once I even saw a screenshot of a sniper doing 10k in voidstar.

 

And if a dps in average does less than 2.5k without defending a node, then, yes: he sucks.

 

If you would nerf heal to a level that healers can get killed by those bad dps, how could healers deal with those dps who do 6-10k in a wz?

 

Especially in solo ranked. Healers can already get killed within two hardstuns by three good dps if they don't get enough support (tank or dps who try to stun and interrupt even those enemies they are not focusing) or have anything ready that would help them in this vulnerable time.

 

I sometimes play operative healer in ranked. The enemies only need to know how to dps and time there stuns. No ts required, just: "me first, you second" before the match and everyone knows what to do. Stun, stun, dead. Or: stun, stun, and if not immediatly vanish: E-net, dead.

I feel totally vulnerable in this environment where I usually meet good dps.

And then I queue for regs and suddenly I become a god quite often who can just kite 4 dps around who are running behind my totally helpless. I don't play better in regs but there are just so many of these less-than-2.5k-dps.

 

Thats why I tell you to see it from the healer perspective. I know its frustrating to not be able to kill a healer but that is not because you don't have the tools to kill them. You have the tools but you don't use them.

[Ottoattack]

It's hard to get that kind of dps unless you're dot spreading, and that's just fluff. You rarely see it, while you will see healers pumping out hps like crazy. Healers are overtuned, and need adjusting.

 

3K dps on single target dps is low bowling it. Actually, someone on the high end of the skill level with mostly 242s, could easily put 4K in single target and 5K dps for dot based the classes with dot spread.

 

As for the topic on hand, yes healers are out of control. While ops and mercs, are okaish (still a bit out performing), sorc heals are way out performing to game breaking levels. 6K HPS is normal. And in the presence of 2 of them plus a tank, GL killing anything.

 

And to illustrate:

Nonononono, I main a healer and I totally agree. If 2 fully geared DPS cannot take a Sorc below 50% health, there's indeed a very serious problem.

 

Just not with the healers.

 

Why the hell should you need 2 fully geared dps to kill one healer below 50% HP

[wainot-keel]

As for the topic on hand, yes healers are out of control. While ops and mercs, are okaish (still a bit out performing), sorc heals are way out performing to game breaking levels. 6K HPS is normal. And in the presence of 2 of them plus a tank, GL killing anything.

Yes, I agree, healers are out of control. Those who should be controlling them are not. Healers are let alone to freecast, they are not focused, they are not interrupted, they are not separetad from their tank. Completely out of control. That makes healing really powerful.

 

Why the hell should you need 2 fully geared dps to kill one healer below 50% HP

 

And if only one dps, any dps, by design, can kill any healer by themselves, then why the hell would anyone play one ? It would be the most retarded thing to do.

[themachinemann]

most of the time, a noob healer does more (and dies less quickly) than a noob dps, especially if they can freecast, so I think the greater issue is in the difficulty of each role. as people said, 2k dps is average for most regs, 3k is pretty good, 4k good. most dps i see are 1.5-2k, while most healers are >4k. stacking healers of course drops that, but op deleted his post anyway so i'll move on.

 

instead of bringing healers down, we can use what we have to bring dps up. teaching what utilities to use, teaching positioning or getting them to play a ranged class can help people in reaching 3k rather than their usual 2k. we have to start somewhere. or they can play heals so that they learn how to defend, making their survivability, keybinds and hence dps better. making classes easier (like they did for sorc, merc and sniper) should also decrease that gap.

 

sometimes watching pvpers, I think to myself "do they get their parents to log in for them?" then my brain dies in a state of disbelief. there's ways to help them be competent, though. it's not gear (though please get augs; there's a stat bonus but also not having any is like going into a warzone and saying "hi i'm a noob". 240 mh is also very helpful). it's not yelling at them. teach them their rotation and targeting (or suggest dulfy, youtube guides etc), teach them to survive and teach them calling incs/counting numbers and it'll be a lot more fun for everyone.

 

 

2 players to kill a healer is fair, and that's basically the current state if there's a similar skill level. less and healer is broken. more and healer is broken.

Edited March 14, 2017 by themachinemann

[Ottoattack]

Yes, I agree, healers are out of control. Those who should be controlling them are not. Healers are let alone to freecast, they are not focused, they are not interrupted, they are not separetad from their tank. Completely out of control. That makes healing really powerful.

 

 

 

And if only one dps, any dps, by design, can kill any healer by themselves, then why the hell would anyone play one ? It would be the most retarded thing to do.

 

This quote about healer be design is not killed by dps gets thrown out way too much and is extremely distortive of reality. It is not a question of can 1 dps kill a healer, it is a question of how effectively can you slow them down. In case of sorc healers at equal skill levels barely. The ratio of healing to dps output should be around 1.1 - 1.2 to 1, except we are like 1.6 - 1.7 to 1.

 

I am not talking here about about some avg. Joe doing 2K dps and have no clue what interrupt is. If you need coordinated CC and interrupt for 20 secs plus by 2 dps doing close to 4K to kill one healer, something is seriously wrong in design. And even at that output, it will be impossible to kill a guarded healer.

 

WZs now are either a snooze fest due to healers on both side were barely anyone dies, or very one sided, as one team as healers and the other does not. To be honest, lately most fun games I play have zero healers on either side.

[t-darko]

the matchmaker is full of bad.

 

Well It is a PuG queue so by definition there's no matchmaking;(and never has been)

 

PuG

Pickup Group; used commonly in WoW and other MMORPGs. Basically means a group that isn't formed by people you know; instead, it's formed up of random, possible noobs that will completely wreck whatever experience you are getting the group for.

 

If you or anyone else is looking for matchmaking, then the PuG queue isn't the queue you seek; rather the Yolo Ranked one.

Edited March 14, 2017 by t-darko

[Vember]

Achieving 3k DPS in a fight with support is more like a decency minimum, not some extraordinary requirement.

 

And I can't tell you the number of times I've seen healers doing way less than half my healing, even when they were all along with me. (And I'm not even a very good healer, to begin with.) But even with good healers in the group, I can mostly perform within like 10-20% percent of their HPS, not failing to get at least like half their numbers.

 

Can you (or any of these "healers are so op" people) say the same about your damage?

 

I pulled 4.4k dps last night in a voidstar and I was the highest, as Pyro with dot spread. The healer, on the other hand, pulled 7k hps. That is absolutely ridiculous.

[Vember]

And if only one dps, any dps, by design, can kill any healer by themselves, then why the hell would anyone play one ? It would be the most retarded thing to do.

 

One dps should be able to lock down a healer that isn't guarded and peeled. That's the whole point of a team based dynamic. Why should healers not require teamwork when everyone else does? When healers can easily overcome one or two dps, then healing is too powerful, and that problem is exacerbated when you have multiple healers, guard, and peeling.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Vember

[Schoock]

I pulled 4.4k dps last night in a voidstar and I was the highest, as Pyro with dot spread. The healer, on the other hand, pulled 7k hps. That is absolutely ridiculous.

 

What's ridiculous is that you still don't understand that the reason for that is that in a normal match (i.e. where matchmaking isn't screwed, and that is not a class balance issue) you have twice as many DPS as healers. So if two of you focused that healer, and the other one managed to miraculously pull 2.6k DPS, you'd have absolutely negated that healer.

 

Do I have to draw pretty pictures of this for you to understand?

[Schoock]

When healers can easily overcome one or two dps, then healing is too powerful, and that problem is exacerbated when you have multiple healers, guard, and peeling.

 

If any healer can (without support) easily overcome two DPS focusing him, then those DPS are just gosh darn awful.

[Vember]

What's ridiculous is that you still don't understand that the reason for that is that in a normal match (i.e. where matchmaking isn't screwed, and that is not a class balance issue) you have twice as many DPS as healers. So if two of you focused that healer, and the other one managed to miraculously pull 2.6k DPS, you'd have absolutely negated that healer.

 

Do I have to draw pretty pictures of this for you to understand?

 

I get high dps through dot spread, it's useless. It's low pressure damage. You're acting as if that 4.4k dps I put up was high single target damage and was matched by everyone else. Not even close. It takes multiple dps to down a sorc healer, and that is broken. I don't know how else to spell it out for you.

 

If any healer can (without support) easily overcome two DPS focusing him, then those DPS are just gosh darn awful.

 

Yea, yea. The healer is just an amazing player and all the dps are bads Has nothing to do with healers being OP.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Vember

[Kirpputori]

It takes multiple dps to down a sorc healer, and that is broken. I don't know how else to spell it out for you.

Yea, yea. The healer is just an amazing player and all the dps are bads Has nothing to do with healers being OP.

With equal skill, one dps shouldn't be able to kill healer alone. That would make heal specs complete carbage and useless. With that said, i've killed healers solo many times, even with concealment operative. 2dps's who know what they are doing shouldn't have too hard time killing a healer. Sure, the healer might be able to survive for a while when kiting, but in the end the healer should be dead and dps's charging another target.

If the healer manages to survive 2dps's focusing him the whole match, then it's just a skill gap issue.

 

Also, i don't play healers, so im not here to "defend my spec" (just saying, incase someone tries to pull that card)

Edited March 14, 2017 by Kirpputori

[Schoock]

You're acting as if that 4.4k dps I put up was high single target damage and was matched by everyone else.

 

You're acting as if that 7k HPS was high single target heals and was matched by everyone else.

 

It takes multiple dps to down a sorc healer, and that is broken. I don't know how else to spell it out for you.

 

It should take multiple dps to take down any healer, not just a sorc, and that is how it should be. I don't know how else to spell it out for you.

[shyroman]

I pulled 4.4k dps last night in a voidstar and I was the highest, as Pyro with dot spread. The healer, on the other hand, pulled 7k hps. That is absolutely ridiculous.

 

So if the the entire rest of your team managed a paltry 2.6k dps (even if aoe because it still has to be healed), then health bars would start dropping and people would die. There are self heals on the enemy team that will help them though, so least say if the entire rest of your team does 4K dps. That isn't hard at all.

[Vember]

You're acting as if that 7k HPS was high single target heals

 

It was.

 

 

It should take multiple dps to take down any healer, not just a sorc, and that is how it should be.

 

I agree...IF that healer is being guarded and his dps are peeling for him. Currently, it takes multiple dps to down a sorc healer without any of those things. Takes damn near an entire team to do it once those simple teamwork techniques are introduced. That is not how it should be.

 

Healers, specifically sorc healers, are too.damn.strong. Period.