PvPers don't want Player vs. Gear

[Icykill_]

Guys, for those of you who don't really know me, I've been testing and working out Bolster for my fellow players for many years. I eventually created a thread back in 2015 and it got stickied to this forum (until 5.0) to help people gear up. I used to test every new change and I would update the first page with new data, I spent a good deal of my game time doing that for my fellow players. You can see the thread here.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=795518

So you can see I care greatly about helping the pvp community and do actually know a bit about how Bolster and gear gaps work. I'm not just blowing hot air when I tell you this game is no longer about skill, it is about gear.

 

Some people have been more lucky than some, there are some people who have been extraordinarily lucky and "have" geared up with minimal effort. I think those people don't realise just how unlucky some others are and how lucky they were.

People have gone all the way to 300cxp and not got one 242 piece. While others have a few and others are fully geared. The game does not take into account how much time or effort you put into gearing. This is why the gear gap is an even bigger issue than it would be if there was a real reward vs time progression.

 

I have posted a suggestion thread to the Devs and I plan on sending the same info to Eric, on how to fix this gear gap issue and still make CXP/RNG relevant. It is the most simple for them to impliment with very little effort. I've got more eleborate ideas, but that requires them to put resources into it. So I tried to make it as easy for them to fix.

Here is a link if you are interested in reading it.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=916266

 

 

Edit: Msg now sent to Eric. I hope he reads it and it doesn't get lost in the pile of other PMs he gets. 😊

 

😈

Edited March 6, 2017 by Icykill_

[-Highsteel-]

full 242's is a myth, a legend people tell their kids at bedtime, lol. seriously though, bolster is only slightly less than it usually is, and in 5.2 it will be back to 8 lvls like it has been.

 

I've seen full 242 and I myself and only missing an armoring 242 - which is a 240 and a 242 barrel - which is a 240. So it's out there, but would rather have it on a more equal balance.

[Lundorff]

Ah Icykill_, it's a pleasure to read you logical posts

 

Unfortunately BW seems dead set on this gear grind - despite the changes coming in 5.2 - and PVP will continue to become increasingly skewed in the months to come. We can only hope they will come to their senses at some later point, but I don't see it happening

[Sith-Viscera]

The old way you could get a full set of starter pvp gear in less than a few hours. Now you have to play for WEEKS to get a full set of BIS gear.....

 

The old way was harder as far as if you had crappy gear u could only do unrank pvp and you didnt get things to help you get the good gear so u can play rank pvp. You had to do Ops and Fp or as far as i understood it, if you wanted rank gear. And again you had to have really good gear in the first place to be able to help your team mates well enough to beat these bosses to get that good gear. ANd most of the time if u got crappy gear they kick ya out of the group so u never truly get a chance to get great gear. So this happened to me so i stopped playing them and PVP for 2 years. this new system might be a longer way but for those that stopped or never did pvp can get good gear now at the same rate as every one else, and not have to play OPS and FP and uprisings. Now they got good gear that can compete and, and yes with more time you can get great gear and get in raking pvp a lot faster which pushes you to the best gear even faster then ever.

 

this system you start of with what 228 or 230 gear, ok now you are right in to unranked pvp after a while you have the next tier and your in solo rank and now your playing un and ranked pvp which makes that cxp crap go faster to top gear and i do not have to spend hours and hours trying to get in group finder or gather a group up on my own just to get into a group they inspect u and oops u got to go your gear sucks bye!

 

After a few of them you decide to give it up and just solo the story lines and for get about any groups let alone pvp.

So in my Opinion this is longer to get the best gear but it still fits with in my time limits that i have to play, and with less hassle cause i do not have to do everything like OPS FP Blah blah, and just do my daily and weekly PVP un and ranked pvp then i am done for the day and off with another alt or im done playing for the day and back spending time with the family.

 

this debate can go on for ever, it is just whats best for an individual. At one time i had nothing to do with pvp. Now i feel like i am getting a little more for my sub and spite everything else, and having fun doing it.

[Wimbleton]

TL;DR: Grind is here to stay. They've proved this. Either get to grinding, keep whining, or find a new game.

 

The grind is here to stay. Proof? Well since the dawn of 5.0 we've been introduced to this grind. If you grinded enough in 5.0 to get to t3, you had access to higher legendary drop rates.

 

They greatly reduced the legendary drop rates in 5.1 which is the reason that people are now getting to CXP 300 without a legendary or with only 1 or 2.

 

I have full 242. I grinded my ace off like I've never done before... well thats a lie, I once camped the Ghoulbane sword in EQ1 for 45 hours straight before it dropped... but I was young then.

 

Anyway, grinders have been rewarded with gear. In 5.0, you got more drops because you got to t3 quicker and got your crates quicker. I started doing fractured farms before people even knew about fractured farms.

 

Then people really started to complain, especially casuals (which I consider myself) once they got a taste for the evil RNG jeebus. So what did they do? Well in 5.1 they gave you more crates. The masses thought this would be great but I posted in the days following 5.1 that they simply junked the drop rate and gave you more crates with the net result being even LESS drops.

 

I was told I had confirmation bias, etc. But now people are starting to see the light.

 

So again, the complaints are flowing in.

 

Again BW responds, this time with components and everyone thinks it will be great.

 

It isn't. (I farmed almost 3000 components to buy 7 peices of gear)

 

So BW responds again, increasing component rates.

 

What have we learned through all of this? They are trying to reduce the grind just the very smallest amounts to keep the subs from completely leaving.

 

Their objective from the start was to make this expansion keep its subs by making it take months to gear up in a trade-off for allowing everyone eventual access to top level gear.

[jedcjedcjedc]

We all know it has a low drop rate as it has even been stated by the devs. But making claims that the drop rate has been lowered based on how you perceive it is indeed confirmation bias because you only hear the horror stories of people not getting anything. You don't hear about the people who get 3 pieces in 30 levels or anything like that. I currently am r281 with 9/14 242 and I use components for pretty much all of them, as I do next to no pve.

[yellow_]

Friendly reminder that there is absolutely no reason that you can't be annoyed by the gear gap possible in PVP now, along with the massive amount of time required to eliminate it on just your main (especially relative to how these things have been in the past) and at the same time recognize that coordination, player skill, and class balance have a far bigger impact on the outcome of a given fight.

To make matters worse, there will be a whole new gear lvl introduced in 5.2. That will make the gap even bigger.

Bolster is being scaled in accordingly in 5.2.

 

It will be 238, 2 above the new tier 1 (236) and 10 below the new tier 3 (248) just as it is now.

 

I despise the way PVP gearing works currently but it's not necessarily getting worse in 5.2.

You had to do Ops and Fp or as far as i understood it, if you wanted rank gear.

Run along, you just displayed that you have no idea how PVP gearing worked in the past.

We all know it has a low drop rate as it has even been stated by the devs. But making claims that the drop rate has been lowered based on how you perceive it is indeed confirmation bias because you only hear the horror stories of people not getting anything.

Agreed -- anecdotes about how drops from crates went for you are mostly useless. Again, I loathe the system we find ourselves in but there's plenty to complain about without resorting to sketchy statistical claims based on perception.

Edited March 6, 2017 by yellow_

[mmmbuddah]

The old way was harder as far as if you had crappy gear u could only do unrank pvp and you didnt get things to help you get the good gear so u can play rank pvp. You had to do Ops and Fp or as far as i understood it, if you wanted rank gear. And again you had to have really good gear in the first place to be able to help your team mates well enough to beat these bosses to get that good gear. ANd most of the time if u got crappy gear they kick ya out of the group so u never truly get a chance to get great gear. So this happened to me so i stopped playing them and PVP for 2 years. this new system might be a longer way but for those that stopped or never did pvp can get good gear now at the same rate as every one else, and not have to play OPS and FP and uprisings. Now they got good gear that can compete and, and yes with more time you can get great gear and get in raking pvp a lot faster which pushes you to the best gear even faster then ever.

 

this system you start of with what 228 or 230 gear, ok now you are right in to unranked pvp after a while you have the next tier and your in solo rank and now your playing un and ranked pvp which makes that cxp crap go faster to top gear and i do not have to spend hours and hours trying to get in group finder or gather a group up on my own just to get into a group they inspect u and oops u got to go your gear sucks bye!

 

After a few of them you decide to give it up and just solo the story lines and for get about any groups let alone pvp.

So in my Opinion this is longer to get the best gear but it still fits with in my time limits that i have to play, and with less hassle cause i do not have to do everything like OPS FP Blah blah, and just do my daily and weekly PVP un and ranked pvp then i am done for the day and off with another alt or im done playing for the day and back spending time with the family.

 

this debate can go on for ever, it is just whats best for an individual. At one time i had nothing to do with pvp. Now i feel like i am getting a little more for my sub and spite everything else, and having fun doing it.

 

WHAT?! You didnt have to TOUCH pve in order to get the starter pvp gear for the old way. The old way you could amass warzone comms while leveling to 60, and then AT 60 you could buy yourself a full set of pvp gear. Done and done. Then it took a few weeks to get top end pvp gear, and then you started to min / max. Then BW decided to completely get rid of that because it was "too complicated and grindy" ONLY TO REPLACE IT WITH THIS NONSENSE! :mad: :mad:

[jedcjedcjedc]

It will be 238, 2 above the new tier 1 (236) and 10 below the new tier 3 (248) just as it is now.

 

without a sticky I've actually lost track of where they let us know the tiers. All the threads I check just say "tier 4". is the artifact gear 246 and the legendaries 248?

[yellow_]

without a sticky I've actually lost track of where they let us know the tiers. All the threads I check just say "tier 4". is the artifact gear 246 and the legendaries 248?

I don't know the exact details of the gear, just that 248 exists and was mined weeks ago...going to say probably

 

Musco post about bolster:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9253685#post9253685

[Vember]

If you're an avid pvper, it doesn't take that long to gear up. From a fresh newly rolled level 1 to full 236 and my first 240 took me 2 weeks total.

 

And this is as a Pub, so I get the least amount of UC more often than not, due to losing most of our matches. Saturday I played 24 matches, only won 5.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Vember

[Stellarcrusade]

I love how the accepted wisdom is skill > gear. As someone mentioned that's only in a 1v1 with two equal non-noobs.

 

skill+gear MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH GREATER THAN non-skill. Problem is that the ones with the gear are always the veterans who have the skill. And of course that they are too afraid to even set foot into a war without 3 other veteran friends strapped to their behinds. So even a small gear descrepancy = total stomp because it is multiplied by the skill of 4 people (or more outside the premade in some cases).

 

70 pvp is a veterans only club. And on some servers its 1 faction only club also because 1 faction wins all, means they are too far ahead in gear already.

 

Pvpers will start rolling character classes they like and delete them when they get to 70 only to start again.

 

Pvp is a joke because of gear descrepency. To be real hardcore pvp all stats should be determined by class, 0 from gear. Imagine that. 100% skill pvp? Not unheard of, early gaming we had war games like that. It worked great.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Stellarcrusade

[mike_carton]

Bolster is being scaled in accordingly in 5.2.

 

It will be 238, 2 above the new tier 1 (236) and 10 below the new tier 3 (248) just as it is now.

 

The difference in rating levels is remaining the same. However, the difference in stat budget for item modifications is not. Specifically, the new, blue 244s will be better than the current Gold 242s. That will be true of all tier 4 gear. This is currently not true between the tiers.

 

So, bottom line: The new tier 4 and the new bolster actually make the gear gap worse. As usual, BW did not think this through; they said "We are upping the top gear rating by 6, so let's up the bolster level by 6 as well" and considered the matter addressed.

Edited March 6, 2017 by mike_carton

[Purgamentorum]

Many people are saying gear doesn't matter because it is 6 points different. They don't understand how bolster works. You do not get flat stats for being bolstered and because of DR some stats bolster better than others. The difference is huge. I used an old alt in standard outlander gear (the gear new caracters will have) and compared to a character wearing a mix of 230, 234 and 242 gear. It was aound 750 difference to the bonus damage. That is a huge gap. Gear matters and they are making level 70 pvp less accessible to new players because of it. That means there will be a downward slide in participants as already seen on many servers, and worse still the end of Swtor PVP.

 

I think it is time for flat stats in pvp, especially if the madness of RNG and new gear grinds continues. Pve players enjoy the grind for the shiney new stuff they get. PVP players are used to no rewards in Swtor and want to play for fun, that means switch on and compete. If gear doesn't matter who will care about the flat stat situation. Best yet balance for regs and ranked will be easier as someone crunching numbers on performance levels can directly adjust the stats quickly and easily.

[Vember]

Many people are saying gear doesn't matter because it is 6 points different. They don't understand how bolster works. You do not get flat stats for being bolstered and because of DR some stats bolster better than others. The difference is huge. I used an old alt in standard outlander gear (the gear new caracters will have) and compared to a character wearing a mix of 230, 234 and 242 gear. It was aound 750 difference to the bonus damage. That is a huge gap. Gear matters and they are making level 70 pvp less accessible to new players because of it. That means there will be a downward slide in participants as already seen on many servers, and worse still the end of Swtor PVP.

 

 

From my patchwork gear I had at 70 to full 236, I've seen very little difference aside from health changes. My damage has stayed roughly the same throughout, max hits fluctuate between 12k and 18k with the very rare 20k here and there (Plasmatech) and my survivability hasn't seemed to change much at all.

[Purgamentorum]

From my patchwork gear I had at 70 to full 236, I've seen very little difference aside from health changes. My damage has stayed roughly the same throughout, max hits fluctuate between 12k and 18k with the very rare 20k here and there (Plasmatech) and my survivability hasn't seemed to change much at all.

 

I didn't watch the numbers flash by I just looked at the character sheet

[mmmbuddah]

If you're an avid pvper, it doesn't take that long to gear up. From a fresh newly rolled level 1 to full 236 and my first 240 took me 2 weeks total.

 

And this is as a Pub, so I get the least amount of UC more often than not, due to losing most of our matches. Saturday I played 24 matches, only won 5.

 

Which server do you play on, I am looking to start groups because I am tired ot he same thing.

[ARFett]

To all those saying gear is not the real issue I say:

 

Yes - it IS the issue.

 

While it is true that skill compensates much let me just state facts.

 

As a comparison I give the following:

 

With 230 gear your dps statistic show between 2600-2800 damage.

 

With a 240 hilt/barrel it comes up to around 3600.

 

So even if buff gives you 232 rating that means some 500 damage points more.

 

For BASIC attacks.

 

Add to that the crits and the different high dps abilities you get a vast difference in damage done.

 

With lower rating gear you get MORE damage which does enhance the problem.

 

People with higher gear do vastly more damage and receive definitely less damage.

 

And to state "there is buff" is a joke.

 

Before 5.0 the PvP gear came in 204 and 208.

 

That was FOUR ratings difference.

 

Now we have TEN ratings difference to 242 - and probably more so with tier 4.

 

The gap is too much.

 

It is "Gear Wars" all along.

 

And ironically it was such as this in the beginning of Swtor.

 

I remember it well as a Founder.

 

That is why they in the first month created special PvP gear and later buff BECAUSE the gear difference slowly killed PvP.

 

They are doing the same mess AGAIN.

 

Only now the effects with the vaslty different tiers make PvP more and more a joke.

 

Skill counts less and less.

 

Only grind and gear.

 

And F2P and preferred are only farming material now as they cannot even get command points.

 

Just meat for the grinder.

 

That does not motivate at all.

 

And it shows on all servers...

Edited March 7, 2017 by ARFett

[Icykill_]

Friendly reminder that there is absolutely no reason that you can't be annoyed by the gear gap possible in PVP now, along with the massive amount of time required to eliminate it on just your main (especially relative to how these things have been in the past) and at the same time recognize that coordination, player skill, and class balance have a far bigger impact on the outcome of a given fight.

 

Bolster is being scaled in accordingly in 5.2.

 

It will be 238, 2 above the new tier 1 (236) and 10 below the new tier 3 (248) just as it is now.

 

I despise the way PVP gearing works currently but it's not necessarily getting worse in 5.2.

 

Run along, you just displayed that you have no idea how PVP gearing worked in the past.

 

Agreed -- anecdotes about how drops from crates went for you are mostly useless. Again, I loathe the system we find ourselves in but there's plenty to complain about without resorting to sketchy statistical claims based on perception.

 

And there will still be a gear gap if it is the same as now because there is a gear gap now. The only way it will be better is if they increase Bolster to what it was before the nerf

[Icykill_]

If you're an avid pvper, it doesn't take that long to gear up. From a fresh newly rolled level 1 to full 236 and my first 240 took me 2 weeks total.

 

And this is as a Pub, so I get the least amount of UC more often than not, due to losing most of our matches. Saturday I played 24 matches, only won 5.

 

I completely disagree. I only pvp and I've got nothing above 230.

[mike_carton]

If you're an avid pvper, it doesn't take that long to gear up. From a fresh newly rolled level 1 to full 236 and my first 240 took me 2 weeks total.

 

And this is as a Pub, so I get the least amount of UC more often than not, due to losing most of our matches. Saturday I played 24 matches, only won 5.

 

Why don't you put up some pictures showing the armor pieces and the total time played?

 

That's nearly 3000 UC. At 5 UC per win (before the recent changes) that'd be 600 PvP wins and 1200 games assuming 50% win ratio. After getting to level 70 before the current XP boost event. This amounts to 20+ hours per day of PvPing at level 70.

Edited March 7, 2017 by mike_carton

[Yezzan]

Firstly, you cannot tell someone that you refuse to believe his/her experience or observations because that defeats the purpose of having any type of discussion. I have noticed a difference in my performance when i moved from 208 rating gear to 230 rating. My DPS and survivability increased. I didn't suddenly became a better PvPer neither did my opponents suddenly became less adept at playing. This is not even a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact; HP, damage and defense increases are the facts and the suggestion that they increase your overall performance is not unreasonable.

 

Secondly, doing under 1k DPS isn't evidence of a bad player or that a player is unskilled. War Zones are to be played objectively. A lot of people chase DPS numbers instead of helping their team. If you are responding to inc's, taunting as a DPS, breaking off to interrupt a cap, spamming your AOE because people are trying to overwhelm the node by several of them capping at once from different angles, you will not be doing no 5k DPS at the end; worst if you are node guarding. So, the player might not have done 1kDPS but they had the most objective points.

 

Finally, it is more that reasonable to suggest that players in higher rating gear will mostly likely do better than players in lesser rating gear , ceteris paribus. While skill is always a relevant factor to any encounter, it would be irresponsible to discount the pivotal role that gearing plays. What would you say to someone in ranked that has 210 greens? The first thing players check is your gear, and if you are missing a stim you get cussed out for it.

[Jedi_riches]

I completely disagree. I only pvp and I've got nothing above 230.

 

I agree with you here, I ran 12 matches over the weekend (using the daily 3 times) lost 11 of those and barely have half the unassembled components I need for a single piece of gear. In the 16 galactic command levels I increased over the weekend I got 1 item that was greater than the blue 230 items and that was a purple 230 relic, so 230 is still the best gear I have for just 1 character and I can't see better gear in sight while being smashed to hell by others in war zones.

[Wimbleton]

Why don't you put up some pictures showing the armor pieces and the total time played?

 

That's nearly 3000 UC. At 5 UC per win (before the recent changes) that'd be 600 PvP wins and 1200 games assuming 50% win ratio. After getting to level 70 before the current XP boost event. This amounts to 20+ hours per day of PvPing at level 70.

 

I'm full 242. Before 5.1 I focused on getting to 300. I did this with mostly whatever was the highest CXP gain at the time, which for me was Fractured Uprisings. I also did many many warzones. So I was passed 300 before 5.1, I hit 300 the night before 5.1 launched. I had all 240s and (6) 242s.

 

At 5.1, I stopped getting 242 drops all together. In fact, in over 240 levels after 5.1 and rank 300, I'd only get one more usable 242 drop . I got 1 unusable ephereal mending relic (at rank 302ish) and the usable focus at rank 547. So that left components.

 

As soon as I started seeing a consistent reduction (removal) of 242s from packs (at least for me) I put 100% focus on components.

 

I played warzones mostly in premades and most nights we'd win either all of our games or all but a couple (OPG is hard to carry if the off group just completely fails). My win ratio was above 98%.

 

During times when I couldn't find 1-2 people to queue with, I'd do GSF which was 8win/3loss and also averaged about 5 per game - but the time between component awards was longer due to GSF queue times.

 

I continued doing this until I was able to purchase the remaining 7 items, just shy of 3000 UC (2980, I think).

 

A couple of weeks ago I put on my last 242 item.

 

I never added up how many UC I'd need to complete my set other than adding up how much I'd need to complete whatever item I decided to work on. There's no reason to build a huge mountain in front of you and stare/complain at it.

 

I just maximized my situation and did the best I could with what was available to me. Eventually it happened.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Wimbleton

[mmmbuddah]

Firstly, you cannot tell someone that you refuse to believe his/her experience or observations because that defeats the purpose of having any type of discussion. I have noticed a difference in my performance when i moved from 208 rating gear to 230 rating. My DPS and survivability increased. I didn't suddenly became a better PvPer neither did my opponents suddenly became less adept at playing. This is not even a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact; HP, damage and defense increases are the facts and the suggestion that they increase your overall performance is not unreasonable.

 

Secondly, doing under 1k DPS isn't evidence of a bad player or that a player is unskilled. War Zones are to be played objectively. A lot of people chase DPS numbers instead of helping their team. If you are responding to inc's, taunting as a DPS, breaking off to interrupt a cap, spamming your AOE because people are trying to overwhelm the node by several of them capping at once from different angles, you will not be doing no 5k DPS at the end; worst if you are node guarding. So, the player might not have done 1kDPS but they had the most objective points.

 

Finally, it is more that reasonable to suggest that players in higher rating gear will mostly likely do better than players in lesser rating gear , ceteris paribus. While skill is always a relevant factor to any encounter, it would be irresponsible to discount the pivotal role that gearing plays. What would you say to someone in ranked that has 210 greens? The first thing players check is your gear, and if you are missing a stim you get cussed out for it.

 

Exactly, when I put a 236 hilt on my weapon from a 230, there was a considerable jump in my damage overall, I can only imagine what it would jump to at 242, and having ALL 242 gear would make my damage ridiculous. ATM though I have had a WHOLE 3 set pieces drop in 80 cxp levels. I do not have the TIME to grind day in and day out. There is not enough content in this game to warrant this grind, and even with the changes coming 5,2 , it is not enough, this is the least popular system EVER in this game, and it is honestly time for the devs to own up and say this system is bad and they are working on something new.