Why is the in-game community so incredibly toxic?

[americanaussie]

"I'm a douche to other players because I'm unhappy about the direction of the game"

 

I won't give Bioware a 100% pass for enabling bad behavior, but anyone who adopts that sort of attitude is a major part of the problem and says more about themselves than whatever Bioware's motivations for the community are (I GUARANTEE you toxicity from their player base is not one of them)

 

Bullies find excuses to be bullies. Same with abusers. Spouse beats partner because they had a bad day. All the same mindset. Abusers blame others for their behaviour when they're the problems.

[TUXs]

"I'm a douche to other players because I'm unhappy about the direction of the game"

 

I won't give Bioware a 100% pass for enabling bad behavior, but anyone who adopts that sort of attitude is a major part of the problem and says more about themselves than whatever Bioware's motivations for the community are (I GUARANTEE you toxicity from their player base is not one of them)

He never said he was a "douche" to others, he was simply pointing out that this is the community that has been fostered by Bioware, and he's exactly right.

 

I used to report the disgusting and disturbing freaks in general chat all the time...wanna know how much good that did? NONE! Nothing ever changed. EVER! Bioware doesn't seem to care what their community does inside of their game and it's sad...I do...at least, I did...I don't care any more because nothing I feel about it will change what it is. THIS is what Bioware has created and allowed to happen, it has ZERO to do with you or me. I tried to help just to never ever get anywhere, so I'm just done trying. It is what it is.

 

Bullies find excuses to be bullies. Same with abusers. Spouse beats partner because they had a bad day. All the same mindset. Abusers blame others for their behaviour when they're the problems.

Oh come on...this is nothing like those at all. To suggest it is marginalizes the seriousness of true abuse.

[FerkWork]

Toxic is the GC. Remove it from raiding and PvP.

[aerockyul]

He never said he was a "douche" to others, he was simply pointing out that this is the community that has been fostered by Bioware, and he's exactly right.

 

I used to report the disgusting and disturbing freaks in general chat all the time...wanna know how much good that did? NONE! Nothing ever changed. EVER! Bioware doesn't seem to care what their community does inside of their game and it's sad...I do...at least, I did...I don't care any more because nothing I feel about it will change what it is. THIS is what Bioware has created and allowed to happen, it has ZERO to do with you or me. I tried to help just to never ever get anywhere, so I'm just done trying. It is what it is.

 

I wasn't directing the comment at Galactic specifically, but to the people who use dissatisfaction with the game as an excuse to be toxic to other players. For all the good it does, be toxic towards the makers of the game, but the other players who are trying to enjoy the game or are also unhappy but not as vocal about it do not need to be the subjects of the toxic person's ire. If the toxic person wants real change, what good is it when they are literally driving other players away from the game? So when real change actually happens, what's left over?

 

As I've said, I agree Bioware enables toxicity, but they don't cause it (unless they are in the same room as the trolls, making them do it against their will). I hate the limits on the ignore list, the uselessness of the "report" function within game (where you have to literally be in the same vicinity of the culprit in order to report more than Spam), the lack of moderation, and pretending that asterisks make everything ok. Those are just some of the ways they enable trolls and toxicity (and most online entities are guilty of it as well). However, no one is forcing a troll to troll or a person to be toxic to other people but the thing between the chair and keyboard.

[NomadFifteen]

Wanted to throw my two cents in on this.

 

I started playing with friends at launch but they have all wandered away. I stuck around because, well, this is Star Wars, or it was at one point.

 

Had some bad times when I tried joining a guild, so been without a guild for years now. I have soloed all I can, and when I tried flash points, I will have to say that the groups I was put into on Shadowlands through Group Finder proved why I remain a solo player.

 

Go into the flashpoint, see three players all in the same guild. Vote kick before I can type anything.

Go into the flashpoint - standard - and mention I am not familiar with the flash point, but have watched videos on it and ask advice. Vote kick.

Go into the flashpoint, someone checks my gear and get vote kicked for having best crafted/best vendor available gear, not raid/operation gear. (Of course this was during 4.0. Now all of us are in basically the same boat on gear, but that is a different topic.)

 

So, I can understand the OP's point. There are good people out there, but run into enough bad eggs, and you no longer want to try being social anymore. I log in less now than I did prior to 5.0, but when I do it is just to try and accomplish personal goals. I will group up for some events (Rakghul), but no longer feel like attempting to be social, as the trolls have pushed enough buttons that I do not want to turn into one to retaliate.

 

Hoping that the state of the game does improve. Would like to see the game come back to life, and maybe try grouping again. But until the devs start adding content, people will still be still be chugging along on the same content they have done for years, and this does get annoying. Hoping the new zone is not dependent upon completing KotFE and KotET, as I have run enough toons through that slog. (Again, another topic for discussion in another post.)

[midianlord]

I wasn't directing the comment at Galactic specifically, but to the people who use dissatisfaction with the game as an excuse to be toxic to other players. For all the good it does, be toxic towards the makers of the game, but the other players who are trying to enjoy the game or are also unhappy but not as vocal about it do not need to be the subjects of the toxic person's ire. If the toxic person wants real change, what good is it when they are literally driving other players away from the game? So when real change actually happens, what's left over?

 

As I've said, I agree Bioware enables toxicity, but they don't cause it (unless they are in the same room as the trolls, making them do it against their will). I hate the limits on the ignore list, the uselessness of the "report" function within game (where you have to literally be in the same vicinity of the culprit in order to report more than Spam), the lack of moderation, and pretending that asterisks make everything ok. Those are just some of the ways they enable trolls and toxicity (and most online entities are guilty of it as well). However, no one is forcing a troll to troll or a person to be toxic to other people but the thing between the chair and keyboard.

 

Where in this thread is it written, or even implied that anyone is using it as an excuse? Aside from no-where that is.

 

No-one is making excuses, but they/we are stating a demonstrable reason for it.

 

Because this is how humans work, like it or not, especially when one applies the G.I.F.T. principle.

 

Continuing to enable toxicity despite people clearly saying they don't want it, and want to do something about it, is just as bad as causing it directly. There comes a time when responsibility must be taken, and the buck stops with them.

 

Why, for the love of Dog, do you people keep making excuses for these incompetents? Why?

 

Have you seen some of the utter vileness in Harbinger gen-chat in the last 3-4 weeks? Some of the character names? It's never been this bad before IMO, and something clearly caused all these...people...to feel dis-inhibited in a way they plainly hadn't felt before.

 

[cynicism]

 

What the Hell, I guess even scumbags deserve their "Safe-Spaces" too, eh? All the more so when they may or may not buy lots of

 

CARTEL PACKS

 

from the

 

SACRED AND HOLY CARTEL MARKET

 

[/cynicism]

 

This may not be BioWare's fault, but dealing with it is their responsibility.

 

Said it before, I'll say it again: F2P games have no integrity. Pay-only games, IME, have a certain --granted often not huge, but it is there-- standard that skinned real-money gambling app's --which is all SW: tOR is anymore-- don't even try to approach in the hopes of casting a wider net for more suckers.

 

They brought this on themselves, it's for them to deal with it, if they choose.

 

'Course we all know which choice they'll make, and why that Choice Matters, don't we.

Edited February 23, 2017 by midianlord

[aerockyul]

 

Continuing to enable toxicity despite people clearly saying they don't want it, and want to do something about it, is just as bad as causing it directly. There comes a time when responsibility must be taken, and the buck stops with them.

 

 

While I hate to use the term "personal responsibility" due to the sheer hypocrisy of most people who use that term, in this situation I think it applies more strongly than just blaming Bioware. Again, I agree Bioware enables toxicity, and I'm not making excuses on Bioware's behalf that they aren't doing enough to combat toxicity in their game. But I simply refuse to give trolls and toxic players a pass when they direct their supposed anger/dissatisfaction at the game towards fellow players, and the attitude/belief/rationale that Bioware's direction of the game is a validation to abuse others.

 

I'm extremely unhappy with a lot of the changes with this game post 4.0, but I'm not attacking/trolling/insulting/attempting to drive other gamers away. And that's not because of anything Bioware is doing that might restrain me from doing that, it's just the choice I make to not be that person.

 

A lot of people in this thread and elsewhere are using Bioware's direction and lack of moderation as a "reason" (excuse) that players are toxic to other players, like that "reason" is an invitation or validation of the toxic player's choice to act badly in game. It's the same argument I have with PvPers who think it's okay to abuse others simply because that's the nature of PvP (then how can so many of us engage in it without being abusive?).

 

Obviously a lot of us, including those of us who disagree, absolutely hate what goes on in gen chat, particularly capital worlds and fleet, and are frustrated Bioware isn't doing things more specifically to stop them, but at the end of the day, Bioware has no control over what the person in front of the monitor chooses to do. There's a difference between you, me, and countless others who hate it and want more to be done but don't take it out on other people, and the people who might feel the same but their reaction is to troll and be toxic to other players.

[aerockyul]

What the Hell, I guess even scumbags deserve their "Safe-Spaces" too, eh? All the more so when they may or may not buy lots of

 

CARTEL PACKS

 

from the

 

SACRED AND HOLY CARTEL MARKET

 

I definitely agree Bioware is more scared than ever to do anything too strongly to trolls/toxic players/gold sellers/scammers because they have the potential to (and often do) buy a lot of stuff on the CM. I agree it's spineless of them, but their time to do anything about that has long passed since the population continues to decline. It would be great if the general population was healthy enough that Bioware could draconically ban the worst people and be able to take a hit to the CM bottom line in-stride, but alas....

[midianlord]

[...]

 

Mate, of course no-one is giving the low-lives a pass (at least, I hope they aren't.)...

 

But one thing that is 100% Durr-durr-Ware's fault is that they have given us zero agency to in-game police ourselves and enforce our own standards.

 

Imagine if we could do similar to what in EVE-Online is known as "suicide-ganking"? IE, you attempt to PK someone in "patrolled" space, but the penalty is that the all-powerful "space police" will kill you, regardless of whether or not you succeed.

 

Example:

 

Did that self-important little piss-ant of a tank in GF just drop without a word in the middle of boss-fight because he thinks it's funny? And when called on it says "lol have fun waiting for a new tank!!"?

 

Or maybe one of his many, many (apparent) siblings/clones ninja'ed a drop you actually needed, this after you've been healing him through the entire instance's worth of his chain-pulling, "all HP/no mitigation" idiocy and then said "I'm the tank, I can do what I want lolol!" when called on that?

 

(Of course, the fact that your friendly neighbourhood Merc-healer might have already let him die after asking him --politely-- to shape up and fly right (with no response whatsoever) was probably his justification for acting like an even bigger ****, because after all, it's always the healer's fault regardless.)

 

That's just one or two small examples, believe me, I could go on --hoooooo, buddy: I could go ON!-- about people being ***** because they know there's no consequences for it.

 

But if "own-goal" was allowed in this game, then I can tell you, I would have gone after those two (met quite a few like them, and many more, and worse, in my time), and done my utmost to grief them out of the game, permanently.

 

Herd: Culled.

 

Community standards-bar: Raised.

 

Best of all:

 

BioWare wouldn't have to spend a dime or person-second to make it happen, because it's within the agency of players. Gold-sell /yell-spam? Same deal, just get people to come gank them over and over and over ("It's like a training dummy, only it actually goes "SPLAT!!" Come get yours today!"), they might stay on Fleet, but they'd never actually get anything done that they want, and would eventually bugger off elsewhere.

 

So, yeah:

 

All the more reason BioWare is to be blamed here, because they consciously chose not to give players any agency in this game beyond running through endless corridors killing endless brain-dead trash mobs, and the illusion/sideshow of "PvP" that is so utterly meaningless that it's almost insulting.

 

I submit, that if a game has harsh in-game risks/consequences, that this can generate better long-term real-world consequences, because people generally stay better behaved.

 

Despite appearances, and what some crying little butthurt carebears may have told you, this is a thing in EVE-O because of real risks <---> real rewards, and rel choice <---> real consequences, mostly in the hands of players, and because the rules are strictly enforced by CCP. (Try doing actual griefing in EVE, and see how long you last before perm-ban.)

 

So yeah:

 

If you insist on having ll the control --as BW does with this game, and how little agency players have comparing-- then so comes all the responsibility. Choosing not to honour that responsibility is definitely their fault.

 

I'll say it again:

 

The buck stops with them.

Edited February 23, 2017 by midianlord

[Darkside]

Good call. What the community has become is a direct result of what has been built. If the "build it and they will come" axiom is true, then the only way to rebuild the community is to rebuild the game so as to foster the desired community. Who knows ... maybe this is the community they've wanted all along.

 

I've always felt that they could turn this community around pretty easily. If they drowned us in content, Bug fixed and balanced, address long forgotten aspects, and catered to all player types, then this entire community would 100% turn around and start praising them. I just fear it's too late in this games life cycle, the devs spread to thin, and hamstrung by EA for this to be possible.

[Darkside]

God...it's hard to argue with what you've said.

 

I wish that wasn't the case either.

[TyrionGraphiste]

It's absurd to believe that frustration with a game turns people into douchebags. Also I think that comments like yours, that "Chinese players" love to grind is exactly the type of inherent douchebaggery the OP was talking about.

 

Given I just explained my opinion - which is totally a normal thing - you come in this thread to post one virulent comment and nothing more. I wonder who's the "douchebagg" between the two of us

 

More, several players are thinking the same way, namely that player happiness is a direct reflection of the game and their behavior inside the game. So I'm pretty not alone as you can think.

Edited February 23, 2017 by TyrionGraphiste

[Gorostas]

I think the community is great. Any toxicity that I have encountered was in general chat Dromund Kaas or Fleet, but smart people ignore those aholes, who are in vast minority anyway. Compared to League of Legends, this community is heaven.

[merovejec]

Besides the issue that we're mainly talking about, what is really wrong with the game? I mean the new expansions have been so much fun. I really like the writing and the new planets... and you can get level 65-70 gear with ease, right? I mean, I can always buy it off the GTN or drop it from a crate... Having level 68 mods is already enough to hold my ground anyway. Or is there any different issue?

 

I'm also aware the Support system sucks... because I was forced to call Bioware once.

 

Well there is nothing to do

 

For us achievement hunters that have done everything 25 times over there is no much to do in the game! There is no point to get gear cause, why?? What for? Ops we did 2 years ago? This wasnt even an expansion. 2.0 was an expansion with daily area and 2 operaitons, 3.0 was an expansion with daily areas, 2 opses and flashpoints etc. There is just nto enough content, you are even forced to grind on the same old stuff.

[TUXs]

I wasn't directing the comment at Galactic specifically, but to the people who use dissatisfaction with the game as an excuse to be toxic to other players.

OK good...I'm glad I misread that.

 

As midianlord said earlier (and below), I don't think anyone is using it as an excuse to be "toxic", but I do think the lack of care from Bioware is what enables people to be. I've never seen a less moderated game in my life. APB was bad, but it looks PG compared to this game at times.

Where in this thread is it written, or even implied that anyone is using it as an excuse? Aside from no-where that is.

 

No-one is making excuses, but they/we are stating a demonstrable reason for it.

 

Because this is how humans work, like it or not, especially when one applies the G.I.F.T. principle.

 

Continuing to enable toxicity despite people clearly saying they don't want it, and want to do something about it, is just as bad as causing it directly. There comes a time when responsibility must be taken, and the buck stops with them.

 

Why, for the love of Dog, do you people keep making excuses for these incompetents? Why?

 

Have you seen some of the utter vileness in Harbinger gen-chat in the last 3-4 weeks? Some of the character names? It's never been this bad before IMO, and something clearly caused all these...people...to feel dis-inhibited in a way they plainly hadn't felt before.

100% spot on!!! Only Bioware can fix this...we're powerless to.

[Ratajack]

Given I just explained my opinion - which is totally a normal thing - you come in this thread to post one virulent comment and nothing more. I wonder who's the "douchebagg" between the two of us

 

More, several players are thinking the same way, namely that player happiness is a direct reflection of the game and their behavior inside the game. So I'm pretty not alone as you can think.

 

Those players are trying to justify their unacceptable behavior when they know that there really is no justification for it.

 

If Johnny is not happy with the game, then why is he still playing?

 

Even if Johnny chooses to continue playing the game, there is no need to "take it out" on the other players and try to ruin their gaming experience. Those players did not cause Johnny's unhappiness with the game.

[adormitul]

I am on Red Eclipse also and what the OP says is true people are not how to put it sociable or helpful or like to gorup to play mostly. Most ignore you do not talk to you and go about their single player experience some group with you besides "hi" no talking just fighting its fun actually makes it feel like the force guides us.

Then there the toxic people and man wow I have so much fun with them because I can really go in a debate there and I do like to debate about everything.

Basically hell for others and heaven for me.

[Theeko]

If you want toxic go try LoL for an hour

[alricka]

I'm on Red Eclipse too. I returned to the game relatively recently after I have been gone for a (long) while, and so far I was mostly busy with going through KOTET so I haven't noticed much about the community on that server so far. I will admit that things can always change at any time, but whenever I've played SWTOR before - and I've always been on Red Eclipse - I never had any experience that I would describe as toxic.

 

Granted, I'm kinda-sorta the solitary player type that the OP is... intimidated? by, the type that generally treats the game as a singleplayer experience, so I don't consider myself an expert on how the social interactions on my server go, but 1) I've never refused aid to anyone who has ever asked me for help, and I've even stuck with groups that are not doing very well in a given Flashpoint instead of abandoning them to search for another tank, 2) I rarely ask for help myself, especially these days where the regular questing is so easy that it barely needs your input, but back in the day it wasn't THAT easy and I've asked for help on at least 2 occasions off the top of my head, and got help both times, 3) I was never harassed or insulted in any way, and while the general chat rarely has anything of worth inside, I've goofed around and had a few laughs in it every now and then; they've even answered questions (gasp!).

 

So I really don't know where that unpleasant experience comes from. I will agree that SWTOR is not the most social MMO out there, but to be frank I've seen a LOT more toxicity on the forums than in-game. Maybe because I don't do PvP?

Edited February 24, 2017 by alricka

[StupidWiz]

If you want toxic go try LoL for an hour

Mainly because of Teemo.

[aerockyul]

Those players are trying to justify their unacceptable behavior when they know that there really is no justification for it.

 

If Johnny is not happy with the game, then why is he still playing?

 

Even if Johnny chooses to continue playing the game, there is no need to "take it out" on the other players and try to ruin their gaming experience. Those players did not cause Johnny's unhappiness with the game.

 

That's what I've been trying to say, too, but I think some people have taken it personally if there isn't a requisite takedown of Bioware as the culprit (however, they are noted enablers by making the rest of us feel powerless with the nearly useless tools available to us to combat toxicity)

[rylanadionysis]

How to combat toxic nerds (advanced edition)

1. Roll a female toon, be believable, no sideboob crap, dress her like an actual chick probably would.

2. Send a tell to the troll telling him you like his style, hit it off, get into his head

3. Ask your girlfriend/wife/any chick you know (yeah youre probably boned here but hey) to get on TS with him and keep up the ruse.

4 Eventually set up a time for the lovebirds to meet IRL.

5. Arrive and knock his moronass out =D

 

Bonus round - make him come to her (your place), and slash his tires stranding him 1000+ miles from home. (and probably his parents car, too, lolol)

 

Sure youre gonna get probation and maybe 30 days in jail, but you just completely annihilated that troll forever, guaranteed he wont run his mouth online ever again. The legend may even spread and fear is a powerful weapon. The reason trolls/toxic players do what they do, is they have no fear of recourse. Create recourse. It takes work, but dont despair, most trolls are extremely stupid.

Edited February 24, 2017 by rylanadionysis

[TheFreeMarcher]

I don't find the community that bad. There are some issues along the lines of some random running in and refusing to group up for Valen Korik in the tombs on Dromund Kaas but I've never had a big problem really. Whenever I go into groups for a flashpoint my group is quite friendly can have a small joke about if we struggle on a certain phase and my very first operation (I was still new to the game at this time) were very understanding of this and may have gotten annoyed when I messed up (which was quite a bit ) they never outright got mad at me. I've never had problems with the community but I am not sure how the other servers are. I play in The Harbinger.

[xRohanx]

Team-mates, who can’t wait, when you loading in location. Offensive phrases and strange orders in a group chat, even for newcomers, who warned about their first time. Boorishness, "Because it's just a game". People, who was kicked, without any reason, while they loading. Strange guys, who is coming to veteran flashpoints with 10-16 lvl staff or without some pieces of it. And more… A lot of shame.

 

I’m grateful to people who do not do this, not like them. Thanks to you, I continue to play this game.

[Mithros]

I am not telling others to talk for the sake of talking, but the OP is a chronic complainer.

 

Just look at their posting history.

 

They just complain to complain and whatever they say should be taken with a giant grain of salt.

 

=============

 

"Toxic" varies from player to player.

 

Some people seem to enjoy engaging trolls in arguments. These people are, to me, almost as bad as the trolls themselves.

 

Someone trolling? Ignore and done.

But when half a dozen people start arguing back and forth with the troll? Now my chat is that much more cluttered. Do I ignore those people, too? Even though they might otherwise be reasonable and even helpful?

 

I am no kid, but there are kids playing, and so when I see people making decidedly family unfriendly comments and bypassing the swear filter I find that "toxic".

It is certainly something that could make some people decide to look elsewhere for entertainment.

 

Mostly it's just because there are not enough, or strong enough, consequences.

 

Not to mention that some people just love to be jerks to other people when they have a computer screen to hide behind.