Dear BW. What is with the tank gear?

[Andryah]

You arent totally right. There is a bell curve for this. You need enough health to survive the spike damage but enough mitigation that you aren't taking all the damage every attack. You dont want to be on either extreme end. The answer lies in the middle ground somewhere.

 

Like so much in this world, real and unreal... it's about balance, rather then extremes.

[stoopicus]

It's even simpler than much of the discussion above - the reason tanks want the high END mods and augs (and the resulting higher HP) is because generally you have plenty of Defense already, just off the normal tank gear, and unless you run a REALLY high shield chance and absorb percentage (potentially gimping other things), the fact is END > Shield for effectiveness. Edited February 12, 2017 by stoopicus

[mike_carton]

Vanguard. I will be checking out the 51 b mods, because seriously, running around in pvp and ops with lower health than a gunslinger is just stupid.

 

Here are the optimal gear and stats for Vanguards at 230 Armor ratings. Bant's numbers. This is what you can get with 7-piece set bonus armor and matching purple 230 weapons and left side items. The easiest way to achieve is to do it with as many purple 230s as you can get and some 234s.

 

Powertech - Shield Tech || Vanguard - Shield Specialist

72.14% Reduction | 6382 Endurance (2xC, Stim) | 5830 Mastery | 910 Power

3183 Defense | 2015 Shield (9xE, 3xA) | 1237 Absorb (1xE, 11xA)

 

Powertech - Advanced Prototype || Vanguard - Tactics

7660+-359 DPS @ 50.2 APM | 7167 Endurance | 5901 Mastery (Stim) | 3183 Power

1447 Critical (7xE, 2xC) | 1152 Alacrity (12xA) | 735 Accuracy (3xE, 2xA)

 

Powertech - Pyrotech || Vanguard - Plasmatech

7556+-273 DPS @ 48.1 APM | 7167 Endurance | 5901 Mastery (Stim) | 3183 Power

1469 Critical (5xE, 4xA, 2xC) | 1130 Alacrity (2xE, 8xA) | 735 Accuracy (3xE, 2xA)

Edited February 12, 2017 by mike_carton

[gabigool]

As with all tanking, it's better to take less damage, than be able to take more. I know it sounds confusing, but take a minute and think about it

 

It's not a question of being able to take more being better than taking less. It's a question of wondering why a tank has to choose between taking less damage over time vs. having enough health to live through spikes.

 

Having 2x the HP is no good if it drops 10x as fast.

 

Um.... hyperbole much?

 

And as a healer I hate tanks with high HP and low mitigation. They are far more difficult to keep alive than those with higher mitigation and use up more force/energy/ammo.

 

A tank wearing B mods is "far more difficult to keep alive"? I doubt that. I doubt you'd even notice, since all he's really trading is defense at the very top end of the scale.

 

Reality is my job as a tank is not to reduce your resource utilization. It's not to make your job easier. My job is to stay alive by using active mitigation and having the common sense to walk into the instance with enough health to live through two or three hits in a row. Yes, I should focus on mitigation, but currently I have to do this after I have a realistic health pool.

 

I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that max mitigation tank gear be altered to give the tanks a higher starting HP pool. I agree that it is too low as it stands and the fact that nearly every tank I know uses at minimum B-mods tells you something. The fact the a lot of them use Lethal B mods tells you how ridiculous the "you'll be too hard to heal" crap is.

[Eli_Porter]

I see no one's mentioned threat generation yet. More damage = Easier to get mobs to attack you instead of your teammates.

[phalczen]

Here are the optimal gear and stats for Vanguards at 230 Armor ratings. Bant's numbers. This is what you can get with 7-piece set bonus armor and matching purple 230 weapons and left side items. The easiest way to achieve is to do it with as many purple 230s as you can get and some 234s.

 

Powertech - Shield Tech || Vanguard - Shield Specialist

72.14% Reduction | 6382 Endurance (2xC, Stim) | 5830 Mastery | 910 Power

3183 Defense | 2015 Shield (9xE, 3xA) | 1237 Absorb (1xE, 11xA)

 

Powertech - Advanced Prototype || Vanguard - Tactics

7660+-359 DPS @ 50.2 APM | 7167 Endurance | 5901 Mastery (Stim) | 3183 Power

1447 Critical (7xE, 2xC) | 1152 Alacrity (12xA) | 735 Accuracy (3xE, 2xA)

 

Powertech - Pyrotech || Vanguard - Plasmatech

7556+-273 DPS @ 48.1 APM | 7167 Endurance | 5901 Mastery (Stim) | 3183 Power

1469 Critical (5xE, 4xA, 2xC) | 1130 Alacrity (2xE, 8xA) | 735 Accuracy (3xE, 2xA)

 

I think its important to mention that Bant's model only takes into account the mitigation route, and assumes tank relics and unlettered mods. For 4.x he did a high health model but I don't think he did one this time around since he doesn't play anymore.

[Tsillah]

As with all tanking, it's better to take less damage, than be able to take more. I know it sounds confusing, but take a minute and think about it

 

Well, the relics for tanks stopped having HP in 4.0 and got mastery instead of it. I'm sure that helps with damage mitigation.

 

Also you do need a certain amount of HP to take certain hits. Your armour reduces incoming damage but there are some really big hits out there especially in HM and NiM. If a hit of 160K comes in and you reduce it by 50% then hey, it's 80K left. If your defense avoids it then your safe, if your shield takes it then it's reduced as well. However, you have to be able to take at least an 80K hit and if your HP is barely over 100K then you need to be pretty much at full health to take it.

 

Also endurance points give more HP nowadays than before. I believe this was also a 4.0 chance and here's the thing. It actually made HP more viable at some point than stacking more defense or shield. Something about diminishing returns and seeing what the best value is for your points. So there is a point where endurance points can be more valuable than mitigation points and it's finding that balance that matters. With 5.0 HP was increased dramatically for all classes as it is.

 

Just saying it's not really as simple as you suggest. Tanks are often taking set bonus armorings and crafting the mods and enhancements because it gives them a better balance from what I've seen. This way their HP is improved.

 

Now in my opinion the Juggernaut/Guardian tanks got the best deal here. Assassin/Shadow tanks have a lower armour reduction value so tend to need more HP than the other tanks. They have better shielding but that's a % chance and so you need to be able to take bigger hits from time to time than others. Powertech/Guardian tanks do have heavy armour but have little in the way of defensive cooldowns they can use (it's mostly passive stuff from what I understand). The Juggernaut/Guardian tank has a good amount of DCDs and therefore can manage more easily with a lower HP pool but you have to figure that because of the relic change tanks are down about 5-6k HP or something like compared to DPS and Healers. That change never made sense to me.

 

So in the end it means that crafting mods/enh. is needed for tanks even when they have a complete set of gear from GC. Other roles do not need to do this.

 

The question then is, why are tanks getting the short end of the stick when it comes to gearing? At least before 5.0 you had comm gear that was easy to get and extra non-set bonus gear that dropped in ops that could give you those mods and enhancements. Now it takes rare crafting materials to get your gear together where other roles don't. That's the part I just don't understand.

[Tsillah]

I see no one's mentioned threat generation yet. More damage = Easier to get mobs to attack you instead of your teammates.

 

Well, that's because you don't need to mention that. Tanks have some high threat generators, a single taunt and a mass taunt and there are guards that can be given out that also reduced threat generation from healers or hard hitting DPS.

 

The DPS and healers have a threat REDUCTION skill. And this is where the problem starts. People should use that skill. It's not the tank's fault if people don't play their class properly. Also a lot of DPS do not know how to DPS and cause mobs to run around freely when it's not needed.

 

In essence a tank doesn't need more damage as long as he uses his skills properly and as long as the DPS aren't clueless starparse monkeys. High DPS is great but you do need to do just a bit more than just dish out DPS. It has to do with things like using threat reduction, using interrupts, standing out of circles that do damage and understanding that when they attack mobs they should be ready to finish them.

 

One thing that happens too often is that a tank attacks and gathers the mobs around himself and before he can do an aoe hit or two to get the mobs to stick, some DPS are already aoe'ing them and taking threat off the tank. Then they focus on the big one and all the little ones start running around. The tank has to use his mass taunt to get them back and then the DPS use another couple of aoes but then they refocus on the big one and the same thing happens.

 

The problem is then that the tank can no longer get all the mobs back together again and the mobs start chasing the DPS at first...but...what a lot of people don't get is what happens with healing. Healers build aggro against all mobs in a fight when they heal. DPS only build aggro against the ones they attack. So if they stop damaging a mob they aggro, the healers will the get the mobs on them. It's just one example of what could go wrong because DPS players don't understand how their DPS affects the fight aside from the damage they inflict.

 

So really, we don't need to give tanks more damage, but the DPS should stop being lazy and learn how to play. I mean, how often are you in KP HM and you ask who can do the puzzle? And how often is it the DPS that are clueless and the tank and heals know how to do this? But it's a DPS job in most cases.

 

There are really good DPS but most DPS players seem to pick DPS classes because it's fun and it's easy but actually it's not that easy if you want to do it right. In group play, that difference becomes rather clear.

[Eli_Porter]

Well, that's because you don't need to mention that. Tanks have some high threat generators, a single taunt and a mass taunt and there are guards that can be given out that also reduced threat generation from healers or hard hitting DPS.

 

Taunts have a hefty cooldown, and Guard swapping isn't enough for a tank that does crap-all for damage, especially on boss fights where damage is applied instantly on the DPS if aggro is stripped from the tank. And while yes that's more of a player issue, it's also a stat issue to a lesser extent.

 

You can argue that other players are responsible all you want, but that's not an excuse to treat damage as useless for a tank.

 

Edit: I'm not saying i'd take Mastery over Endurance, just that Mastery isn't as useless for tanks as you make it up to be.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[Halinalle]

Use endurance stim + mastery, power or endurance augments. Problem solved.

But then don't complain about healers complaining about how difficult healing you is.

Or you can go tank HM/NiM operation in dps gear and discipline. Let's see how much that higher hp and almost non-existent mitigation helps. You can take all damage reducing utilities though if you want.

 

Higher hp on dps/healer helps if tank loses aggro on boss for a moment and boss manages to hit dps (or healer if all dps in your group are really bad) before tank taunts. Yes, it is possible that dps would die instantly but it is also possible that dps would survive it just barely.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Halinalle

[Exocor]

240 Bulwark and Bastion Enhancements, Earpiece, Implants

240 or 242 DPS Relics

Tank or DPS mods B

242 Armorings

 

 

Yes the hp pool for DPS has inflated way too much compared to tanks. And yes Gearing has been absurd since they removed Absorb mods among other things especially that much defense (2k is good enough but I digress).

 

I would suggest the crafted 240-Relic of Shield Amplification. It has endurance on it as a tank-relic. Also, implants and earpieces 242 have more tertiary stats (shield/absorb) and more endurance on them as any other implant/ear. The second-best implants/ears are 240-blue (mk-2). 240 crafted/240-purple-crate are pretty similar (changes in defense, AP and mastery).

 

Also, I use 242-tank-enhancements, 242-armorings and 240-b-mods.

[Eli_Porter]

I would suggest the crafted 240-Relic of Shield Amplification. It has endurance on it as a tank-relic. Also, implants and earpieces 242 have more tertiary stats (shield/absorb) and more endurance on them as any other implant/ear. The second-best implants/ears are 240-blue (mk-2). 240 crafted/240-purple-crate are pretty similar (changes in defense, AP and mastery).

 

Also, I use 242-tank-enhancements, 242-armorings and 240-b-mods.

 

The 242 tank relics have a respectable amount of tank stats now. +60 shield and +102 defense rating, alongside +237 mastery.

 

That said you could use Shield Amplification over Eternal Defender.

240 Shield Amp and 242 Reactive Warding might be the best now?

[Exocor]

The 242 tank relics have a respectable amount of tank stats now. +60 shield and +102 defense rating, alongside +237 mastery.

 

That said you could use Shield Amplification over Eternal Defender.

240 Shield Amp and 242 Reactive Warding might be the best now?

 

Actually I am a fan of shrouded crusader on my shadow due to it's symbiosis with force potency. However, I know, that there are different opinions on the use of relics. I didn't got the opportunity to test out 242-relics, because I just got a 242-relic of fortunate redoubt out of a crate and I put more effort into upgrading my armorings due to the DR coming with it. So, at the moment I use the 240-shrouded crusader and 240-craft-shield amplification. Besides that, I think, I would use a 242-shield amplification or reactive warding, if I get one. I am staying at ~126.000 health at the moment.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Exocor

[FerkWork]

I would suggest the crafted 240-Relic of Shield Amplification. It has endurance on it as a tank-relic. Also, implants and earpieces 242 have more tertiary stats (shield/absorb) and more endurance on them as any other implant/ear. The second-best implants/ears are 240-blue (mk-2). 240 crafted/240-purple-crate are pretty similar (changes in defense, AP and mastery).

 

Also, I use 242-tank-enhancements, 242-armorings and 240-b-mods.

 

Lel Funny I wrote the stats down last week and highlighted that so am bad for missing that with Implants and Earpiece.. that they can't give us 242 Bastiom Bulwark Enhancements smh....

 

Wow Shield Amp has endurance LULZ. Should always expect bugs XD

Personally I still use DPS Relics to push the DPS on fights that are extremely tight .

Edited February 12, 2017 by FerkWork

[phalczen]

Lel Funny I wrote the stats down last week and highlighted that so am bad for missing that with Implants and Earpiece..

 

Wow Shield Amp has endurance LULZ. Should always expect bugs XD

 

I think the crafted (the mk-26 ones that used the conquest material) versions of the tank relics in 4.x also had endurance instead of the mastery on the token relics.

 

However, the crafted 228 Ranrt relics do not have endurance, and I haven't gotten any tank relics higher than 230, so I was happy to read that post.

Edited February 12, 2017 by phalczen

[FerkWork]

I think the crafted versions of the tank relics in 4.x also had endurance instead of the mastery on the token relics.

 

However, the crafted 228 Ranrt relics do not have endurance, and I haven't gotten any tank relics higher than 230, so I was happy to read that post.

 

I guess they can't make up their mind. XD

[Airehn]

I read not to use Reactive Warding if there is a Sage Healer in the group, as the bubbles didn't stack, and it effectively make the Relic useless. Is that still true, or was it never a thing to begin with.

[FerkWork]

I read not to use Reactive Warding if there is a Sage Healer in the group, as the bubbles didn't stack, and it effectively make the Relic useless. Is that still true, or was it never a thing to begin with.

 

This is true as an Absorb shield bubble will override another if both are active . Worse is Jugg AoE taunt shield utility.

[Eli_Porter]

So crafted 240 Shield Amp+242 Shrouded Crusader would be the best?

 

Trying to decide how to spend precious unassembled components here.

[VegasTheLost]

So crafted 240 Shield Amp+242 Shrouded Crusader would be the best?

 

Trying to decide how to spend precious unassembled components here.

 

Consider a DPS relic instead of the 240 one. You trade negligible survive ability to some DPS output(moar aggro) and some HP(and crit!!!!! that comes usefull for a taunt ). Or you can go nuts with 2 DPS relics, since Shrouded Crusader needs to be used to work well and I tend to forget sometimes(others are as well....). Also with 2 DPS relics you can show off to newer members of your group how savage you are. (insert MLG horn here)

Edited February 13, 2017 by VegasTheLost

[mmmbuddah]

I dont think anyone is arguing that we should go ALL endurance, but a tank should not have 20 k or more less health than dps at top end gear. That is just silly. At least give us even health pools.