Juggernaut Tanking - Avoid like the plague!

[patheman]

Actually more concerned with survivability, and fact we have no real means to counter any elemental/force power damage, or internal damage, outside our insanely long CD abilities like Saber Ward or Invincibility which isnt helping alot, and our only heal pet doesn't really have any burst heals to make up for how much damage we take from those damage types.

 

Was fighting a single quest force user sith elite in a quest today, i was going out of my head about how poorly our tools to even stand a chance were, disruption on way longer coolddown than i takes them to spam 4force powers before its off, elite can disregard force scream interuption, which leaves force choke on 50min CD approx if you have the reducer, or force push on 45min coold down with talent reducers, or backhand on 1min CD to interupt between disruption coolddown, or lose 1/3 or 1/4 from each force ability they use, because we have zero non cooldown migitation that work here to any useful degree, saying that with near 19% defense rating, shield rating on around 31% and absorption rating around 26% and around 12k health at 47level.

 

And still they can walk over me like i was a joke, kiting helps nothing, pet without any real burst heal, helps nothing, dps pets die way faster than me with all aoe spamming mob do, its a real anti climax for playing tank, when we not even allowed any real damage against strong or elite mobs, what exactly we supposed to do?

 

Im considering today if to scrap my juggernaut or not, im simply reaching my pain treshold playing this class.

 

What I can glean from what you just typed there my friend, I am guessing you really do not have a full grasp of the mechanics of this build. Where I do agree the cooldowns are too high on almost every key ability we need as tanks and for taking down solo bosses+mobs. I have not once in the level 40 range of content met with a solo boss I could not negotiate at my level or in some cases 1 above.

 

I do find myself having to manage aggro quite a bit on mobs that are spread out, especially those boogars who heal themsleves and their buddies and maintain distance between one another by design. However, I do not have any issue with the degree to which my healer can burst and mainatain heals on me in any circumstance.

 

I think the key is maintaining your healer's equipment. Mine is sporting all oranges and I make certain to update his slots at every level. Past level 40 this should not be an issue financially. As far as doing damage against strong and elite mobs, I am not having an issue there either. Obviously I don't do the damage of a DPS build, but then again I am not suppossed to. I am a tank build. I come to accept that I do less damage than my DPS counterpart. If I wanted to do DPS I'de roll DPS.

 

So with the Tank build we have to think a little more and employ a little faster button and mouse pushing, take care in our key layouts and key binds, and learn to manage our CCs a little better. In the end a tank should have to perform a slow burn on an intended target or mobs.

 

Hopefiully, Bioware will address the armor deficiency they say they are aware of and while they are at it they will hopefully address the cooldown issues so may are complaining about.

[Dat_Dude]

Thats a problem right there ^

 

Alot of people say juggs is fine at tanking if you don't tank normals or let your companion take aggro. Well...a powertech can tank elites and normals at the same time...so where does that put juggs?

 

I have a BH as well and I will agree that it easier to play. I can level no problems with my BH. Part of it is due to the Range abilities though. You can shoot form a distance and let them run to you or at least get some stuns in there before you rush in. The Jugg has to jump right in the fight from the start is open to taking damage as he stands in the center of the mob swinging. BH's also get fire and stun's that explaode taking down the charcter hit and all around him.

 

Im not going to argue that the BH is an easier and more powerful because I think it is. It does take more skill to play the Jugg in a way where you can tank in an efficient way. I think some improvements will come, the class needs some better stuns than it currently has.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Dat_Dude

[Your_dominus]

If anyone is thinking of making a juggernaut to tank, think again; this class is severely lacking in the threat department, whilst single target is a pain to try to hold threat, multi-target is a complete mess

 

L2 play,lol.

Jugg is beast.

 

To some degree, the dps should not be retarded, and should be assisting you. Outside of this understanding, I can't help but say you're full of crap, and suggest you're doing it wrong.

Mine is 42 now, and I love juggernaught tanking.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Your_dominus

[Darth_Victus]

L2 play,lol.

Jugg is beast.

 

To some degree, the dps should not be retarded, and should be assisting you. Outside of this understanding, I can't help but say you're full of crap, and suggest you're doing it wrong.

Mine is 42 now, and I love juggernaught tanking.

 

Typical response.

 

As a level 50 Juggernaut tank, I can tell you that the class does need some tweaks.

 

We are rage starved for the most part and some of our most hard hitting, and useful abilities (Pommerl Strike and Savage Kick) require certain conditions that can not be used on elites (or higher) or players making them useless for anything other then fodder mobs.

 

I am currently leveling a Powertech Bounty Hunter to compare and contrast and I can tell you right now I have a far more easier time holding aggro at level 15 over other players then my Juggernaut could when he was in his mid 30's.

[Your_dominus]

Typical response.

 

As a level 50 Juggernaut tank, I can tell you that the class does need some tweaks.

 

We are rage starved for the most part and some of our most hard hitting, and useful abilities (Pommerl Strike and Savage Kick) require certain conditions that can not be used on elites (or higher) or players making them useless for anything other then fodder mobs.

 

I am currently leveling a Powertech Bounty Hunter to compare and contrast and I can tell you right now I have a far more easier time holding aggro at level 15 over other players then my Juggernaut could when he was in his mid 30's.

You shouldnt be prioritizing pommel strike or savage kick. At all. But ok?

All i know is, I have yet to run into any level of frustration. Not counting dealing with retarded dps that pick their own random **** to dps.

 

I will admit there is a sense of barly holding agro. And you have to work for it. Probably more than you should have to, and I would like to see more threat.

But broken? omg don't role a jugg tank?

BS.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Your_dominus

[Dacadus]

As a Jugg tank that is 4/5 Nightmare EV Jugg tanking is ok not bad not great just ok. I would like to see the following changes imo:

 

1. Backhand - Pretty useless in raids atm tbh. All the trash is grouped up an AoEd down and the skill is utterly unusable on every boss meaning it's greyed out and unclickable. Take out the stun mechanic and just make it a High Threat ability imo.

 

2. Savage Kick and Pommel Strike - Once again useless on boss fights and another 2 skills Id take the other reqs off of and gives us something to actually deal dmg with (this will probably not happen but w/e).

 

3. I would also go as far as giving us something to make us immune to knockback/stuns (Replace Force Grip or Crash imo in the talent tree)

 

I love the jugg and besides the minor dps issues that will more than likely see some addressing I think most people are just overreacting. Give them some time and they will bring us inline.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Dacadus

[Ljungen]

As a Jugg tank that is 4/5 Nightmare EV Jugg tanking is ok not bad not great just ok. I would like to see the following changes imo:

 

1. Backhand - Pretty useless in raids atm tbh. All the trash is grouped up an AoEd down and the skill is utterly unusable on every boss meaning it's greyed out and unclickable. Take out the stun mechanic and just make it a High Threat ability imo.

So it´s greyed out on raid bosses? I have been able to use it on every flashpoint boss so far.

 

2. Savage Kick and Pommel Strike - Once again useless on boss fights and another 2 skills Id take the other reqs off of and gives us something to actually deal dmg with (this will probably not happen but w/e).

I agree about these 2 skills. I do not even have them binded.

 

3. I would also go as far as giving us something to make us immune to knockback/stuns (Replace Force Grip or Crash imo in the talent tree)

That would be a nice talent to get

 

I love the jugg and besides the minor dps issues that will more than likely see some addressing I think most people are just overreacting. Give them some time and they will bring us inline.

 

Made some comments in your quote. Overall I agree with what you are saying.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Ljungen

[Dacadus]

Yea on Operation Bosses in EV Backhand is greyed out or darkened and unusable. Edited January 3, 2012 by Dacadus

[SG_Swerve]

The sheer amount of stupid in this thread, targeted at the nay sayers of course, is staggering.

 

While the class could use a little bit more AOE threat capabilities and tweaks to some mechanics - it is hardly useless lol.

 

Would LOVE to find out what levels all these guys are at to make such sweeping comments about our class

 

Personally? 47 Juggie here and loving it!

[Areoss]

Simple solution.

 

Just talk to the healer... if someone pulls agro, don't have them healed.

 

Its not only the tanks job to keep threat... but the DPS need to learn not to pull threat too on every mob they can. Just to be all "LOL My epeen is huge because I can out dmg the tanks agro"

 

I know thats not an excuse to be the complete solution... but it doesn't take just a skilled tank to be a good group. You need dps that are aware of what they are doing rather than just mashing out as much damage on the target you have the least threat in... and then when its in their face spam any ability they can to kill them as quick as they can while raging at you in chat.

 

I usually find that if I get 1 or 2 seconds head start... or tell them to wait for the smash then they can start aoe... it's generally fine. It works wonders having DPS that dont run in and pull.

 

To stop them from doing that, I let them tank without healing They'll soon learn their place .

[Smusheezy]

I do fine in all hardmode flashpoints and I also main tank hardmode Eternity Vault and Palace. Maybe you just need to learn how to play

[DenverRalphy]

Simple solution.

 

Just talk to the healer... if someone pulls agro, don't have them healed.

 

Its not only the tanks job to keep threat... but the DPS need to learn not to pull threat too on every mob they can. Just to be all "LOL My epeen is huge because I can out dmg the tanks agro"

 

<snip>

 

The single reason I am so happy there's no combat log, and thus no combat parsers.

[Ljungen]

Yea on Operation Bosses in EV Backhand is greyed out or darkened and unusable.

 

Well that sucks so hard. Why in hell is it greyed out.

[Yfelsung]

*raises hand*

 

I tank fine guys

 

I've played tanks exclusively in MMOs for almost 10 years.

 

Juggernaut is pretty par for the course.

[Belunos]

I know at this point it's pretty much a pile-on for the OP, but I'm only 22 and really have no problems. It really does help if you tanked in other MMOs, but I want to stress how helpful that early interrupt is, especially at only 8 sec cooldown.

 

Here's a litmus test, if you're hitting taunt every time it's on cooldown, then there's something wrong. Stay on the big guy(s), and only really use taunt when something gets to your healer, and that's it. DPS should be cleaning the trash out.

[Ascendant]

No problems here so far tanking on my 50 Jug. Our AOE threat is weak, but I don't find myself gimped because of it. I can keep aggro on the heavy hitters while the DPS clear the rabble.

 

I just don't think Bioware intends for us to be able to grab every mob in a pull and glue them to us. Especially in pulls with like six spread out ranged mobs. There's no getting aggro on all of them efficiently. If you're doing it, you're probably going through the instance very slowly. I've found it's quicker to grab half or two thirds of the mobs, depending on available CC, and let your DPS and healers fend for themselves on the rest. Of course throwing out Force Choke or Taunt to buy them a few seconds where needed.

 

Complete lockdown on a pack of 6 mobs from start to finish just doesn't seem as necessary here as it has in previous MMOs I have tanked in.

[Dacadus]

Well that sucks so hard. Why in hell is it greyed out.

 

Some bosses are immune to stuns, interrupts, and other effects so since it has a stun built in it its useless on those bosses.

[Bloodfrost]

Reading through 7 pages of this, i think a lot of ppl are over-reacting about the jugg. I cant say i have a lot of experiance but i did level 1 to level 20 5 times between beta and now. I can say the first 3 was painful and it was only due to my lack of experiance. I am having less issues now but i can say compaired to my wife and my other 2 friends that i roll with, we need a little bit of love.

 

Most ppl are either black and white and refuse to look at the grey area, juggs are that grey area right now imo. We are not broken to the point of saying, do not play this class, i do think its fair to say to the average player, be warned, this class does require a higher level of skill to be able to play it is not a very n00b friendly class, to put it lightly.

 

It is nice to see a throwback to the old style of tanking to see it being hard, i was sorly dissapointed when they made tanking easy mode in WoW. However when i hear that there is other tanks in the game that can tank as if they were pallies in WoW, that does disturb me. The basis of a good MMO is to have balance between the classes.

 

Again i do speak ignorantly because i know nothing of the other classes but if i was to find out there is another class that does what i do and its easy mode, its going to eventually lead to most ppl requesting them over us just because they have a higher success rate, we will all be painted with the brush of negativity due to many many bad players of our class.

 

So while the OP has crossed the line calling our class broken and useless, i think there is an important message to take from this and that is while we are not useless, we getting the short end of the stick in regards to some of the other classes out there. It would be nice to see some love to our class, some talents re-sorted into better trees and maybe some CD's tweaked.

 

This is the jist of what i get reading online and also how i feel playing the game.

[Heley]

My only gripe is the length of time it takes for the sunders to get set. It feels like minutes for the sunder ability recycle. I guess I am used to that 'other' game where I needed to toss them up ASAP and keep them up during the fight. The sunders also expire pretty quickly it feels like for as long as it takes to get them set.

 

Perhaps I am doing it wrong (wouldn't be the first/last time). Should I be concentrating on getting those sunders up for building threat or is there a better way?

 

Wait until you get cruising blow (the top immortal talent). It applies 3 stacks so makes it alot easier to get 5 stacks up. Until then, yes it does take a while. Don't worry about it too much.

 

My only gripe with tanking is that our only ability that generates extra threat (except the stance itself obviously) is on a 1 minute CD. I think we should have an additional ability, eg sundering assault (so still on a CD but shorter) that generates extra threat when specced so that dps jugg's don't get shafted with extra threat.

[Strayjack]

What I find about this class the Jugg is that at low level my companion often takes agro away from me, ending up chasing the mob. Companion project more threat it seem to me. Mobs agro my companion first instead of me. This is just my observation.

 

At lvl 13, I cannot for the life of me take on an Elite mob equal to my lvl or one level above me, without considerable damage to almost 10% health after a fight. This is with a companion. Without a companion, most often I will use a Med Pack (Crazy how cool down on this thing is ridiculous).

 

At this low level this is already a turn off for me. Could this be the reason why Sith Juggs are at their low pops in any server? A possibility but I'm only assuming. I'm taking this point of view simply at a more direct approach since my jag is only lvl 13.

 

This is not what a tank is supposed to feel like. There is something lacking and I am also under the impression that this class is being looked at to be a viable part of a group. Give the jugg more threat, a passive trait and a survivability trait that only this particular class have something unique. Without these we will simply feel mediocre and go play some other class instead.

 

Enough with the L2P bs because I am looking at this at an early stage. If it's a turn off to play this class at this level, you cannot expect me to try leveling this to max. Such a waste of time. I surpassed my juggs lvl playing BH: Merc..

 

There is a reason why folks would post regarding this class. To say that this is merely a play style observation is somewhat thinking within the box of conventionality. This class is supposed to be a LEADER, a bad azz mofo that will destroy anything in its path. The title Juggernaut is more imposing than the actual class in the field.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Strayjack

[Areoss]

What I find about this class the Jugg is that at low level my companion often takes agro away from me, ending up chasing the mob. Companion project more threat it seem to me. Mobs agro my companion first instead of me. This is just my observation.

 

At lvl 13, I cannot for the life of me take on an Elite mob equal to my lvl or one level above me, without considerable damage to almost 10% health after a fight. This is with a companion. Without a companion, most often I will use a Med Pack (Crazy how cool down on this thing is ridiculous).

 

At this low level this is already a turn off for me. Could this be the reason why Sith Juggs are at their low pops in any server? A possibility but I'm only assuming. I'm taking this point of view simply at a more direct approach since my jag is only lvl 13.

 

This is not what a tank is supposed to feel like. There is something lacking and I am also under the impression that this class is being looked at to be a viable part of a group. Give the jugg more threat, a passive trait and a survivability trait that only this particular class have something unique. Without these we will simply feel mediocre and go play some other class instead.

 

Enough with the L2P bs because I am looking at this at an early stage. If it's a turn off to play this class at this level, you cannot expect me to try leveling this to max.

 

The early stage is what no one should base the entire class from. If you say you cant do something at a low level... then it has no representation of higher level gameplay due to the amount of abilities and talents you simply dont have.

 

It's like trying to get your child to be a professional football player at the age of 2. When they wont shine until they are older.

[youwillburn]

or roll a Powertech. Which is like having your child shine from age 2 all the way to the end.

[Areoss]

or roll a Powertech. Which is like having your child shine from age 2 all the way to the end.

 

If you want to faceroll then sure thing. I wouldnt find that fun to be honest. Whats the point in a class if there is no challenge?

 

Id rather have a challenge and excel over most due to skill and knowledge than be mediocre all the way through with an easy class

[Strayjack]

The early stage is what no one should base the entire class from. If you say you cant do something at a low level... then it has no representation of higher level gameplay due to the amount of abilities and talents you simply dont have.

 

It's like trying to get your child to be a professional football player at the age of 2. When they wont shine until they are older.

 

You have to base it at an early stage as well to make this class an attractive class to play. Not base it on one particular stage of the game. As I mentioned this has to be a viable part of a group from the get go.

 

The metaphor does not fit the assessment of this class. I do not expect my Jugg to be equivalent to a level 10 at lvl 1. I have more pride than that to enjoy this class. It should be, preferably that at lvl 10 the Jugg can out tank, out threat their companion and anyone in their group. They shouldn't be chasing after the mob because your companion or any non tank in your group just out dps you.

 

It's simple, this class require some adjustment. To say otherwise is an utter lie.

[bananaface]

Dmg is too low, assassins and powertechs do literally twice the dmg.

So just reroll dps...oh wait, jugg dps is the lowest aswell.