Way to go punishing PvPers....

[Tsillah]

I really don't see why they don't go the GW2 route and make a second build for PVP, it's obvious that they way the PVE game is set, that they are never going to find balance in the force, so why not just create a alternate build system that is built from the ground up for PVP?

 

That would certainly bring me back to that aspect of the game.

 

And here I agree with you. Wasn't expecting that after another post I read of yours but this is something that I've proposed as well and I think it's the best way to approach the gearing issues this game has.

[mmmbuddah]

And here I agree with you. Wasn't expecting that after another post I read of yours but this is something that I've proposed as well and I think it's the best way to approach the gearing issues this game has.

 

The thing is there was no gearing issue at 4,0. None for pvp, and none of pve. It was perfectly fine, easy to understand, and it took time, but didnt take too long. I could agree that a different skill set for pvp would be nice, specifically for pvp, but I dont see BW doing that. This current rng GC system would have worked fine to SUPPLEMENT the old system, it could have randomly given out pvp gear and pve gear, but nooooooooooo.....

Edited April 17, 2017 by mmmbuddah

[Tsillah]

The thing is there was no gearing issue at 4,0. None for pvp, and none of pve. It was perfectly fine, easy to understand, and it took time, but didnt take too long. I could agree that a different skill set for pvp would be nice, specifically for pvp, but I dont see BW doing that. This current rng GC system would have worked fine to SUPPLEMENT the old system, it could have randomly given out pvp gear and pve gear, but nooooooooooo.....

 

Well, the gearing was separate to a degree and it was workable but to say there was no issue at all I don't agree with. Clearly things are worse now and that we do agree on.

 

But I've always, since the beginning, had issues with people coming to Operations with PvP gear for example but at the same time PvE relics didn't trigger in PvP. Also I don't believe in expertise and where I agree with you that expertise basically was nullified by bolster, it makes you wonder why you need expertise to begin with.

 

What I think is that PvP and PvE gearing should be separate gearing and it should be easy if not automatic to switch between the two sets.

 

Since expertise was pretty much nullified in 4.0 you could say it was fine, but I still would want PvE gear to not be useable in PvP and vice versa and players should get a starter PvP gear set to have a starting point. The question is though if you want to avoid inequality or support gear progression and some things are dependent on that choice. If you want gear progression then you need to allow for gearing inequality or it makes no sense to have gear progression. If you do not want the inequality there should be no gearing tiers but then why would people continue to PvP if there is no reward progression?

 

So I appreciate that it's not all easy and I certainly prefer 4.0 gearing over 5.0 gearing but I wouldn't go as far as to say that 4.0 was perfect...but I'll take it any day over the current system. (without the prio ops thing though, that was rather over the top).

[Gelious]

If you dont kill the boss before the enrage timer or mess up a mechanic in an op, you die. If you dont kill your enemies in pvp...you die. same thing.

You did not just make that comparison. You can't possibly consider a completely scripted and never changing fight

against ops boss to be same as a fight between 2 and more actual living people.

It defies reason, logic and common sense.

[FerkWork]

You did not just make that comparison. You can't possibly consider a completely scripted and never changing fight

against ops boss to be same as a fight between 2 and more actual living people.

It defies reason, logic and common sense.

 

Now to be fair, the majority of people I have seen in WZs have less creativity and learning capacities than scripted bosses.

Edited April 17, 2017 by FerkWork

[Tsillah]

You did not just make that comparison. You can't possibly consider a completely scripted and never changing fight

against ops boss to be same as a fight between 2 and more actual living people.

It defies reason, logic and common sense.

 

Not really. Even though the two are certainly not the same, people fall into patterns quite easily. I know the boss fights are scripted but I can assure you that unless you have the boss on farm, fights are rarely the same. Why? Because the amount of mechanics that exist particularly in NiM and also HM where people can make mistakes at different moments and well, there really are more boss fights than there are warzones so there is variation there as well. But what you fight in operations aside from the boss is yourself: the players in the group. It's cooperative and everybody has their part to play and the parts you pay can be tough. So it's just as much about overcoming yourself as the boss itself.

 

Again, they are not the same but I think PvP'ers too easily ascribe a lack of variety in operations and overestimate people in warzones. People fall into patterns quite quickly. When I do a warzone like denova it's always about capping the same points and there are just a few variations people use to achieve the objectives. I actually get bored quite easily in warzones because to me it's often the same ole stuff. Same types of people making the same mistakes or doing it right and "it" is one of a couple of things really.

 

Now I don't play ranked because I think the 4v4 is the most boring warzone type we have and perhaps there is something more going on there but unranked is incredible predictable.

 

So really, I don't find warzones particularly interesting but there are people who do and that's cool. But acting like raiding is just the same over and over and pvp isn't, well, I can't agree with that either way.

[TUXs]

Except in operations you pay 20k each time you die and in PvP you get rewarded for losing.

Unlike PvE, PvP relies 100% on other players participating for a queue to pop - I think of PvP rewards as incentive for queuing, not rewards for losing. You can do PvE any time of day, regardless of how many players are also doing it. PvP doesn't work that way.

Edited April 17, 2017 by TUXs

[Soljin]

Not really. Even though the two are certainly not the same, people fall into patterns quite easily. I know the boss fights are scripted but I can assure you that unless you have the boss on farm, fights are rarely the same. Why? Because the amount of mechanics that exist particularly in NiM and also HM where people can make mistakes at different moments and well, there really are more boss fights than there are warzones so there is variation there as well. But what you fight in operations aside from the boss is yourself: the players in the group. It's cooperative and everybody has their part to play and the parts you pay can be tough. So it's just as much about overcoming yourself as the boss itself.

 

Again, they are not the same but I think PvP'ers too easily ascribe a lack of variety in operations and overestimate people in warzones. People fall into patterns quite quickly. When I do a warzone like denova it's always about capping the same points and there are just a few variations people use to achieve the objectives. I actually get bored quite easily in warzones because to me it's often the same ole stuff. Same types of people making the same mistakes or doing it right and "it" is one of a couple of things really.

 

Now I don't play ranked because I think the 4v4 is the most boring warzone type we have and perhaps there is something more going on there but unranked is incredible predictable.

 

So really, I don't find warzones particularly interesting but there are people who do and that's cool. But acting like raiding is just the same over and over and pvp isn't, well, I can't agree with that either way.

 

This age old contest needs to end. PvP and Raiding really are Apples to Oranges any comparison between the two is totally flawed because they are nothing alike.

 

People need to get over the "my play style is more L33T" mentality because that is all these discussions boil down to.

 

The problem at hand is not affected by which play style is more difficult and as a result deserves...whatever...

 

Time to gear needs to be drastically reduced, Gear acquisition needs to be relatively balanced between PvE and PvP all aspects, RnG needs to be completely removed from gearing and they need to introduce diverse and regular content going forward.

 

It's not rocket science, It's really likely if they fail at these things this game will slowly bleed out...

 

I have been around since the start, this weekend I outfitted my Sentinel in full 240 gear and went off to play.

 

What I found:

 

No content that interests me PvE is not an option atm (All my guild mates left the game), PvP is a mess balance wise and the crates do not provide a carrot that looks appetizing...

 

Nothing in the crates will be usable until rank 300 and that rank is so far away that I was discouraged from playing any further.

 

This current design of 5.0 is a perfect recipe to push a player out of the game...

 

5.2 is going to help a few points but overall is not going to change my experience much.

 

I will try to play after 5.2 regardless but 5.0 has generally killed my love for this game and if I recall this is how I felt when I left SWG finally for good and never went back.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Soljin

[ivanhedgehog]

You did not just make that comparison. You can't possibly consider a completely scripted and never changing fight

against ops boss to be same as a fight between 2 and more actual living people.

It defies reason, logic and common sense.

 

Common sense tells us that many of those "super" pvp opponents are on:

1:slow connections

2: dont know how to play well

3: have garbage gear

4:are distracted by Mom, Gf, dog,cat, eating their hotpocket, the tv they have on etc etc.

 

There are always people in BIS farming people that couldnt fight back if they tried. Dont try to tell us it is some competition of giants. NPCs never miss a cooldown, run out of energy, get distracted, fall asleep or fall to any of the human errors that we are prone to.

[Jett-Rinn]

Common sense tells us that many of those "super" pvp opponents are on:

1:slow connections

2: dont know how to play well

3: have garbage gear

4:are distracted by Mom, Gf, dog,cat, eating their hotpocket, the tv they have on etc etc.

 

.

 

Why is this forum so down on hotpockets?????!!! Sure they have like a Zillion Calories and loads of fat, but have you tried the Chicken Bacon Cheddar Cheese Melt?

[mmmbuddah]

Well, the gearing was separate to a degree and it was workable but to say there was no issue at all I don't agree with. Clearly things are worse now and that we do agree on.

 

But I've always, since the beginning, had issues with people coming to Operations with PvP gear for example but at the same time PvE relics didn't trigger in PvP. Also I don't believe in expertise and where I agree with you that expertise basically was nullified by bolster, it makes you wonder why you need expertise to begin with.

 

What I think is that PvP and PvE gearing should be separate gearing and it should be easy if not automatic to switch between the two sets.

 

Since expertise was pretty much nullified in 4.0 you could say it was fine, but I still would want PvE gear to not be useable in PvP and vice versa and players should get a starter PvP gear set to have a starting point. The question is though if you want to avoid inequality or support gear progression and some things are dependent on that choice. If you want gear progression then you need to allow for gearing inequality or it makes no sense to have gear progression. If you do not want the inequality there should be no gearing tiers but then why would people continue to PvP if there is no reward progression?

 

So I appreciate that it's not all easy and I certainly prefer 4.0 gearing over 5.0 gearing but I wouldn't go as far as to say that 4.0 was perfect...but I'll take it any day over the current system. (without the prio ops thing though, that was rather over the top).

 

But wanting a seperate set of gear specifically for pvp is pretty much just asking for expertise....because people would need to use gear that wouldnt work in other situations anyway. ....

[Stellarcrusade]

Now to be fair, the majority of people I have seen in WZs have less creativity and learning capacities than scripted bosses.

 

You are somewhat correct. I think SWTOR pvp attracts simple minded non-strategists in general because the wartypes and environments lack any sort of depth and doesn't open itself to much creativity. But also, some people who are good strategists do not have enough to work with here because of the lack of warzone depth.

 

In the leading MMO in a pvp match you could hide underwater, in bushes, use multiple different stacking potions to decrease your size and stuff, hiding is just one example, tell me where you can hide in one of our warzones here?

[analyis]

Yup and OPS whiners got what they wanted... If you plan it out right, you could have 4 people nearly fully geared in a few days... More then that if you got really lucky with drops... That's better then pre 5.0...

 

With alts and prudent planning, you could have a full 8 geared just as fast... It's BS how much PvP players got shafted.. And then the bolster "fix" really screwed things up between the haves and have nots

 

Your 250 bolster gets reduced to 236 and that's getting the shaft? What a doof. Learn how to gear. Tthe PVP free ride ended so cry a river instead of gearing your toon.

[analyis]

No offense but this is exactly what you "hardcore" players deserve. You people playing pvp all day long like having a no life, trolling others in general chat saying "swtor dying" "story sucks" "going to switch wow" etc and then destroying casual pvp'ers in every map and THEN brag about your K/D ratio.

 

Now my dear, watch me playing awesome story/pve content with my sorc and my agent.

 

 

These aren't hardcore players they are undergeared PVP wanna be's that needed an insane bolster when 5.0 launched and melted when the bolster was returned to normal levels.

[analyis]

Yea this new system is just going to encourage more scrubs to run premades in the pug queues.

 

Pemades are scrubs? The quote you based this statement on tell's me you may be confused about what a scrub is

[analyis]

This mess really isn't any better for people running ops. Just go back and do the math. Ops players still have to grind GC boxes and BW still intends primary gearing to be GC boxes, not Ops drops or PVP pieces. You've just realized that all there is to 5.1 is smoke and mirrors. There is no real fix for PvP, Ops or alts.

 

Actually, if you run both ops and pvp you can get full 242"s with a grind in 5.0 . When 5.2 drops this method will make it stupid easy to gear full 248's

[analyis]

Another non pvper adding their 2 cents and don't know what the issue is for dedicated pvpers.

Would I be right in guessing you are a story player who does little or no group content on a regular basis?

 

Based on the thread "hardcore" pvp'ers are upset their top tier PVP gear is no longer stupid easy to get. Well guess what, it isn't stupid easy to get pve gear anymore as well. I have always raided and PVP'ed and the reality is top tier gear can be achieved by all player type's now. If you run PVE and PVP you just get it quicker.

[TUXs]

You don't know what you're talking about. PVEers have to do PVP just as much as PVP'ers have to do ops to get the full benefit of the fast track to top tear gear. Might I suggest suck it up snowflake

Your 250 bolster gets reduced to 236 and that's getting the shaft? What a doof. Learn how to gear. Tthe PVP free ride ended so cry a river instead of gearing your toon.

He clearly knows more about it than you do. You've done an excellent job of exhibiting just how little you know.

Edited April 17, 2017 by TUXs

[Ottoattack]

Based on the thread "hardcore" pvp'ers are upset their top tier PVP gear is no longer stupid easy to get. Well guess what, it isn't stupid easy to get pve gear anymore as well. I have always raided and PVP'ed and the reality is top tier gear can be achieved by all player type's now. If you run PVE and PVP you just get it quicker.

 

Why does gear in PvP even exist? Skill should be the only determining factor. I have the gear, its poor souls who either not understanding how the system works and under geared that will be demolished. In addition, it makes the likely hood of rolling more toons unlikely. I wanna do a shadow tank, but do not have the patience of going through the GC grinding, something that could be easily removed by setting the bolster at 248.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Ottoattack

[analyis]

The thing is there was no gearing issue at 4,0. None for pvp, and none of pve. It was perfectly fine, easy to understand, and it took time, but didnt take too long. I could agree that a different skill set for pvp would be nice, specifically for pvp, but I dont see BW doing that. This current rng GC system would have worked fine to SUPPLEMENT the old system, it could have randomly given out pvp gear and pve gear, but nooooooooooo.....

 

There was an issue with 4.0 gearing. It was way to easy. Top tear gear should be hard to get

[mmmbuddah]

Why does gear in PvP even exist? Skill should be the only determining factor. I have the gear, its poor souls who either not understanding how the system works and under geared that will be demolished. In addition, it makes the likely hood of rolling more toons unlikely. I wanna do a shadow tank, but do not have the patience of going through the GC grinding, something that could be easily removed by setting the bolster at 248.

 

Me thinks he is just an angry troll that likes to bash on people that have a life and cant spend every waking moment playing pvp and ignoring everything else, and who gets off on rolling pug smashing groups with like minded people.

Edited April 17, 2017 by mmmbuddah

[mmmbuddah]

There was an issue with 4.0 gearing. It was way to easy. Top tear gear should be hard to get

 

No, top tier gear for pve should be hard to get, top tier pvp gear should not. PvP should be about skill, not gear. Pretty much all seasoned pvpers agree to this, and only people that get off on pug stomping with their premade groups that get off on the same thing think otherwise.

[analyis]

No, top tier gear for pve should be hard to get, top tier pvp gear should not. PvP should be about skill, not gear. Pretty much all seasoned pvpers agree to this, and only people that get off on pug stomping with their premade groups that get off on the same thing think otherwise.

 

Both PVP and PVE require skill. The reality is gear isn't the be all and end all. Raiders need to know mechanics and their rotation. PVP'ers need know how to coordinate as a group and what abilities best serve them against any class.

[TUXs]

There was an issue with 4.0 gearing. It was way to easy. Top tear gear should be hard to get

Could you take a moment to explain what you felt the "issue" was with 4.0 gearing? As a PvPer, I had top tier gear the day 4.0 dropped...that didn't stop me from PvPing one time. As a PvEer, I geared up multiple toons for the first time ever. I even played and created classes I swore I'd never play, because I could gear them easily - sadly, I wasn't able to claim gear as a crutch for my horrific Sorc play.

 

So...what exactly is the issue you thought existed with easier gearing?

[Rion_Starkiller]

You are exactly right. This is my complaint as well. And guess what? It won't be fixed with 5.2 because only the LAST boss in NiM Ops will drop BiS gear. So it will still be better to do PvP for BiS gear than running NiM ops.

 

We need the 248 NiM loot-carrot. That was what was wrong with 4.0 loot drops -- they thought they were Oprah, and gave away 224's just for attending the show. So NiM will drop 246 purples instead of all 248 golds, right? Not much different, in my opinion. At least it won't be blue gear with the awful mods.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Rion_Starkiller