verfallen Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 coordinating sins are quite painful, and I've managed to global decent merc with a friend (Stun lock/Aoe through the reflect) on our sins. That said, in the same situation they are probably even more vulnerable since they have no offheal. Operative may not have the "big" hit a merc do once a minute, but they have a lot of hard hitting ones in a row. And its astounding how many people stop dpsing merc when they pop reflect. Use AoEs, it goes right through. Win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolixe Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 And its astounding how many people stop dpsing merc when they pop reflect. Use AoEs, it goes right through. Win. Well you could do that.. or you could put your full damage into a more viable target for a second. So that you actually don't give the healers time to breathe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slashbrant Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 My personal opinion: Operatives are where they need to be. The other classes over-performing is the problem. Mercs and snipers have tools to kite for days. In fact they have more gap openers, than we currently have closers, and with the current Merc/Sniper heavy meta, we have to save our closers as defensives. Then, they are some of the most dangerous burst damage in the game currently. Where as operatives, have to be in melee range, can't use their #1 defensive if they want to put damage out, and the payoff is average burst damage, and once their CC breaker is off are susceptible to being stunned out and killed even with the 11% dmg mitigation utilities (which not many people are taking the full 11%, especially if you value being able to stay on target). As it stands DPS operatives are not viable in group ranked, period, because of average damage and easily being kited/slowed. We're not kings of burst, and staying on target has been increasingly difficult as ranged classes have continually gotten better (minus sorcs). But that's the 4s meta and it really hasn't ever been DPS operative friendly. The bugged heal to full utility does give operatives a chance to carry a team, but it's only if you're other DPS are on point. My recommendation, is if you want ranged to be surviving, tone down the dmg. If not, then give them all the burst in the world...but not both. Spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaladan Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 nerf operatives, always. spam roll spam evasion, what a class... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severith Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 With material differences in class participation, you can't use your even distribution assumption of 12.5%, I don't know how many other ways to say it. It's the material differences in class participation among the top tier pvpers that is at the heart of my point. In a truly balanced game, each class would be as useful, powerful, and as fun as every other class. That's 12.5%, and that's what the devs should strive for. If that doesn't sink in for you, then you not knowing any other ways you can say it should at least indicate to you that you're done talking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnzoForMe Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 (edited) It's the material differences in class participation among the top tier pvpers that is at the heart of my point. In a truly balanced game, each class would be as useful, powerful, and as fun as every other class. That's 12.5%, and that's what the devs should strive for. If that doesn't sink in for you, then you not knowing any other ways you can say it should at least indicate to you that you're done talking. Each class should be as "fun" as every other class? The implication being I would want to play every class equally because they are equally enjoyable. Some people like chocolate, some people like vanilla. You're right, I'm done talking. What's more, not everyone picks a class based on usefulness/power. In pvp, I know plenty of people who will queue in solo ranked with an underpowered class either to get recognition or for the challenge. Once you start to peel away your huge assumptions- that class selection is based on your 3 factors, it all falls apart. And then we get to how you define "power". Classes are powerful in different ways, but never as powerful as each other. If you look across formats (solos vs group) or comps (pressure vs hardswap) you can't compare classes on a tier of power without a strategic context. For example, a marksman sniper is not as powerful as an annihlation marauder, or vice versa. They fill entirely different roles (one hardswap, one pressure) and they can't be compared in an apples to oranges manner. Then you are stuck not being able to quantify or qualify power. It is almost comedic how right you think you are, and yet you are thinking at such a basic level of math/logic. If you actually want to solve a problem, you need to incorporate real world variables into your numbers and not rely on an academic, impossible to reach standard distribution. Solving a problem with an impossible solution based on faulty logic is a waste of time and not likely to make the quarterly strategy meeting. Edited January 10, 2017 by EnzoForMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severith Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Each class should be as "fun" as every other class? The implication being I would want to play every class equally because they are equally enjoyable. Some people like chocolate, some people like vanilla. You're right, I'm done talking. I didn't say it was possible. What I did say, is that what the devs should strive for. The implication is that every class should be enjoyable to play. Isn't that in line with what "game" development should be? If you were in a situation where you couldn't decide which class to play because they were all too much fun, I'd call that a good game. I'm glad you're done talking, because you were done listening (reading) a long time ago. Some people like chocolate and vanilla. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savej Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 (edited) I didn't say it was possible. What I did say, is that what the devs should strive for. The implication is that every class should be enjoyable to play. Isn't that in line with what "game" development should be? If you were in a situation where you couldn't decide which class to play because they were all too much fun, I'd call that a good game. I'm glad you're done talking, because you were done listening (reading) a long time ago. Some people like chocolate and vanilla. No they shouldn''t strive for equal class representation. Some classes are always going to be more appealing than others, devs should not care how many people are playing one vs another (unless that reason is purely related to performance). In this game guardians and sorcs are going to be played the most just because of Star Wars (and lightning). The only way for devs to "fix" that, to off-set the inherent appeal that has nothing to do with game mechanics, is to make those classes underpowered vs others. Each class should be potentially equally effective, equally fun, but that has nothing to do with equally played. Edited January 10, 2017 by Savej Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severith Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 (edited) No they shouldn''t strive for equal class representation. Some classes are always going to be more appealing than others, devs should not care how many people are playing one vs another (unless that reason is purely related to performance). In this game guardians and sorcs are going to be played the most just because of Star Wars (and lightning). The only way for devs to "fix" that, to off-set the inherent appeal that has nothing to do with game mechanics, is to make those classes underpowered vs others. Each class should be potentially equally effective, equally fun, but that has nothing to do with equally played. That's like saying Rogue One is an unpopular movie. It had 1 guy with a lightsaber in it, and he had less than like 5 minutes of screentime. Star Wars is a big enough galaxy to have other types of characters being appealing other than jedi/sith. If you're eight years old, and want to bash your sister with a plastic lightsaber, then more power to you, but for adults and older teens we expect more from SWTOR than the Jedi vs Sith storylines. Edited January 10, 2017 by Severith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eazybreezy Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 https://youtu.be/rb-QG2XghWU Operative 1v2ing 2 mercs in ranked match without exploit,heal Operatives are still good in ranked just need to play conservative with all of these nets and high burst classes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frosttj Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 (edited) https://youtu.be/rb-QG2XghWU Operative 1v2ing 2 mercs in ranked match without exploit,heal Operatives are still good in ranked just need to play conservative with all of these nets and high burst classes Replace good with viable and add Solo in front of ranked and this is a true statement. Cool video, and kudos to Nike. Now let's be real, at least one of those mercs was terrible (my guess is both were). Operative itself is not in a bad place, it has a fair distribution of defense with damage, and the obstacle of staying on target mixed in between. The issue, in my opinion is the lack of limitations for mercs being ranged, and still having a plethora of options to deal with damage. Snipers represent where I think ranged should be. Great damage potential but it has long cast times, giving the ability to counter with defensives or los. Mercs have tons of instant cast and a channel on the move. With hydraulics, rocket out, knock back, root, slow on blazing bolts, hard stun, net, and a soft cc, that's a ton of tools to kite as it is. Now lump in a energy rebounder, trauma kit, 70% kolto regen, and there already mediocre off heals...it makes EVERY other class look like crap in solo ranked. If you take mercs out of the equation, and don't have one in your match, then yes, an operative can shine. When you stack 2-3 mercs, anything not a merc/sniper is a crutch in solo ranked. Edited January 11, 2017 by frosttj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FourPawnBenoni Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Not legit 2v1, but still got the win so nice job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regentlord Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 What counters operatives: Mercs What are 75% of ranked players: Mercs Once mercs get nerfed and all the fotm people go back to playing their normal classes then it should be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lundorff Posted January 12, 2017 Author Share Posted January 12, 2017 Gave it another try, and I am now retiring my ops from ranked for the foreseeable future. Even with heal on Countermeasures + Probes + Stim Boost with DR + Shield Probe I still get bursted halfway down if focused by just 2 players. Evasion is great, but it lasts far to short a time and take forever to come of cooldown. Heal on Countermeasures is great if only fighting 1 person, but it's far, far too slow if you are being focused, so you basically have to pop it at 80-90% health or something. I guess it could be use in conjunction with evasion, but then you have nothing afterwards :/ I really, really hope that I am wrong - it would be great - but I doubt that is the case. I welcome any video of ops in solo ranked doing continues great in 5.0. I am quite willing to learn, but I can not help being skeptical. Nerf merc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordhanus Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 https://youtu.be/rb-QG2XghWU Operative 1v2ing 2 mercs in ranked match without exploit,heal Operatives are still good in ranked just need to play conservative with all of these nets and high burst classes Uhm, you seriously play without "target of target" enabled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Britharen Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 I am not the best operative in the world, and I really didn't dps with it before 5.0. (I raid a lot and saw Bant's numbers on leth, cxp benefis dual role classes, and I wanted to focus on something new. So, the op won the gcxp battle) Maybe because I am new to the spec, or maybe it is my server, but what determines whether I win or not is the same as it has always been in solos. The matchmaking RNG; what comp and what skill level of the players. The times when I am most successful is when the four of us work as a team. I fail when I get tunnel vision or get stuck out of the fight for too long. Are ops the fotm? no. Are there comps that are pretty unwinnable? yes. Could it be worse for ops? Hell yes. They are in the middle of the pack and in the hands of a skilled player can change the fortunes of everyone for a night. I am hovering around .500 right now and a good 30% of my losses were due to WAI matchmaking(4 dps vs 3dps &1 heal, 4v3, or d/c/afk-ers), 15% rangemegeddon, and 55% the better team won(this last bit includes my f-ups). PS. I think Caprica has all the room to get annoyed at this discussion since they have been able to do ranked successfully even when snipers weren't so powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eazybreezy Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Uhm, you seriously play without "target of target" enabled? That's not not my video I'm the op Nike in that vid appoduce recordered the vid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordhanus Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 That's not not my video I'm the op Nike in that vid appoduce recordered the vid Yeah I know, you rocked But I couldn't quite follow most of it due to no target of target enabled by video-maker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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