Lundorff Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I am finding solo ranked to be very hit or miss with my operative. Even if I am left alone, I seldom do more than okayish damage, and once I am targeted, well, I kinda explode. And this is despite taking all the "correct" utilities. I am finding the whole thing very lack luster. How are my fellow operatives faring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aniajan Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Offheal ftw..... If you play with something else in mind, then rather dont... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec_Fortescue Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) good burst, insane survivability and mobility, 300k offhealing over a usual match duration and having a massive advantage in every single non-healer match is not hot? Edited January 8, 2017 by Alec_Fortescue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lundorff Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 Offheal ftw..... If you play with something else in mind, then rather dont... good burst, insane survivability and mobility, 300k offhealing over a usual match duration and having a massive advantage in every single non-healer match is not hot? I get the distinct impression that neither of you are actually running with an operative in ranked. The off heals are very limited compared to sorcerer (not that dps sorcerer is good in ranked mind you), and throwing a few probes at people are not going to off set the burst in this meta. There is a reason why operative healer is current at the bottom. I am not saying operatives are worse than juggs, pts and sorcs, but so far I am 50/50 for win / loss in this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow_ Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) I get the distinct impression that neither of you are actually running with an operative in ranked. The off heals are very limited compared to sorcerer (not that dps sorcerer is good in ranked mind you), and throwing a few probes at people are not going to off set the burst in this meta. There is a reason why operative healer is current at the bottom. Just use the curative agent exploit like everyone else for absurd (and easy!) off healing. just kidding please don't Edited January 8, 2017 by yellow_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec_Fortescue Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Just use the curative agent exploit like everyone else for absurd (and easy!) off healing. just kidding please don't Yeah, see if they fix/nerf it and then come to complain about operatives. :l Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eazybreezy Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I am finding solo ranked to be very hit or miss with my operative. Even if I am left alone, I seldom do more than okayish damage, and once I am targeted, well, I kinda explode. And this is despite taking all the "correct" utilities. I am finding the whole thing very lack luster. How are my fellow operatives faring? Tbh you just have to play conservative you have to save your breaker cc a player you aren't targeting and save your cloak to out of combat heal, throw a little off heals when your team needs it. ops have one of the best cc's in the game so just make sure you use it. i think Im around 80 wins to my i think 30 losses and there are ops with better records than me so.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severith Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Mathmatically, each advanced class should represent 12.5% of top performing players in a balanced game. Right now the top 200 operative players are ranked 2819 or above in solo ranked, which is about 7%. Looks kinda bad. One could argue the merc over-performing is a partial cause, since the top mercs are about 26-27% of the top performers. (200 top mercs are ranked 748 or above) If you factor out the merc 27%, and compare the other 73% of the population and how well that performs, each class should represent about 10.5%. Operatives only make it to 7%. Objectively, operatives are still a healthy chunk below what they should be performing in a balanced game. So yeah, not so hot for solo ranked, apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnzoForMe Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) Mathmatically, each advanced class should represent 12.5% of top performing players in a balanced game. That's not really true since you don't have remotely equal participation per class. If you have 100 players playing class A, B, and C then 33% being in the top tier would be a goal to work towards for balance. If you have 100 players playing class A, 75 class B and 50 class C, then 33% of class C being in the top performers means that class is OP or there are, for whatever reason, a concentration of skilled players playing that class more than any other, (which should correlate with relative strength of the class) To the OP: I would classify operative healers as non-competitive in similarly skilled team matches, and operative concealment slightly above the bottom 3 dps (sorc, pt, jug) where you can make it work in solos but it's not optimal. No reason to bring an operative in grouped (though op healers were top dog for a long time) Edited January 8, 2017 by EnzoForMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhancelot Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 That's not really true since you don't have remotely equal participation per class. If you have 100 players playing class A, B, and C then 33% being in the top tier would be a goal to work towards for balance. If you have 100 players playing class A, 75 class B and 50 class C, then 33% of class C being in the top performers means that class is OP or there are, for whatever reason, a concentration of skilled players playing that class more than any other, (which should correlate with relative strength of the class) Dang you just blew him up with math. GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoopicus Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 Dang you just blew him up with math. GG Actually - aren't they kind of saying the same thing, but coming at it from opposite directions? The implication of both is that lower statistical participation at higher rankings implies that the class is disfavored, primarily presumably due to it underperforming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabzizzle Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 That's because once Mosh left the game there hasn't been a single good Concealment Operative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnzoForMe Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 (edited) Actually - aren't they kind of saying the same thing, but coming at it from opposite directions? The implication of both is that lower statistical participation at higher rankings implies that the class is disfavored, primarily presumably due to it underperforming. I merely said that making the claim each advanced class should represent 12.5% as a demonstration of balance isn't a logical assertion. But yes, if 90% of the top rated players were snipers, there's probably a balance problem. Edited January 9, 2017 by EnzoForMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FourPawnBenoni Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 (edited) The buff to mercs has indirectly nerfed operatives because you often have to deal with 2 nets on the other team which is not easy to deal with. The off heals for op are very weak with the burst & increased health at level 70; it takes a lot longer to get back to full (it feels like - haven't done any math) - i don't use the bug Edited January 9, 2017 by FourPawnBenoni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severith Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 That's not really true since you don't have remotely equal participation per class. If you have 100 players playing class A, B, and C then 33% being in the top tier would be a goal to work towards for balance. If you have 100 players playing class A, 75 class B and 50 class C, then 33% of class C being in the top performers means that class is OP or there are, for whatever reason, a concentration of skilled players playing that class more than any other, (which should correlate with relative strength of the class) To the OP: I would classify operative healers as non-competitive in similarly skilled team matches, and operative concealment slightly above the bottom 3 dps (sorc, pt, jug) where you can make it work in solos but it's not optimal. No reason to bring an operative in grouped (though op healers were top dog for a long time) Except that people already know which classes are overperforming, or underperforming. Your mathematics purposefully ignore the concept of choice. People aren't born playing a class in solo ranked. They choose which class they que with. My very simple mathematics show what we already know: If you want to be an top tier pvper in solo ranked it's easier with merc than an operative. I merely said that making the claim each advanced class should represent 12.5% as a demonstration of balance isn't a logical assertion. But yes, if 90% of the top rated players were snipers, there's probably a balance problem. It is very much a logical assertion that both game balance and "fun" should motivate the devs (and the player base giving them feedback) to push for advanced classes to have equal representation in both solo and group ranked. That means the goal should be 12.5%. How far a class deviates from that from the top tier players is a clear indication of problems. (Merc, cough, 27%, cough) I clearly showed, even by taking super mercs out of the equation, that operatives were not represented fairly in the top tier of solo ranked. That's why I said they're not "hot" as per the title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severith Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 (edited) Dang you just blew him up with math. GG http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=909919 How's that petition coming? You know, the one where you ask for changes not knowing the changes were already coming. How many sigs you got? Zero. Okay. I'll expect you to be a Crumb http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Salacious_B._Crumb for anyone who disagrees with me in the future. I'll give you some catch phrases so you don't have to strain yourself. "You tell em boss!" "Ha, that'll show ya!" "Oooo, he got ya there!" Hope that speeds things up for you. Edited January 9, 2017 by Severith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lundorff Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 Tbh you just have to play conservative you have to save your breaker cc a player you aren't targeting and save your cloak to out of combat heal, throw a little off heals when your team needs it. ops have one of the best cc's in the game so just make sure you use it. i think Im around 80 wins to my i think 30 losses and there are ops with better records than me so.... This sounds great and all, but I will lose 40-50% health to the first stun unless i precast (and potentially waste) my stim boost. Breaking the stun prior to white bar is a no-no, but I take so much bloody damage when only my probes are up, and with 1-2 mercs each match, there are sure to be an electro net here and there. Yes I can save evasion for cloak and then roll away to heal up, except by the time I return we have lost 1-2 team mates and the match is over. We desperately need a DCD that we can use while stunned like responsive safeguards or some variation of undying rage, or just evasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfallen Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 This sounds great and all, but I will lose 40-50% health to the first stun unless i precast (and potentially waste) my stim boost. Breaking the stun prior to white bar is a no-no, but I take so much bloody damage when only my probes are up, and with 1-2 mercs each match, there are sure to be an electro net here and there. Yes I can save evasion for cloak and then roll away to heal up, except by the time I return we have lost 1-2 team mates and the match is over. We desperately need a DCD that we can use while stunned like responsive safeguards or some variation of undying rage, or just evasion. Operatives dont need to totally drop combat to offheal like sins tough, and there is no class that can follow their two rolls efficiently. And if they do, you should have a stun or something to delay them and allow you to LoS to offheal a bit, re-roll and re-offheal. Your probe ticks should give you decent offheal as well, passively. Mostly tough, lots of operatives are really bad and easy to kill. The good ones, like snipers, are a pain to deal with. On the other side, a bad merc is easy enough to dispatch, but even a bad merc will have gotten a few big hits before dying, and its braindead easy to use the merc cooldowns, even if not optimally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMadProphet Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 (edited) Just use the curative agent exploit like everyone else for absurd (and easy!) off healing. just kidding please don't Just try to play it without it it and see how long you last. Edit: and they never confirmed it is an exploit or a bug even thoe you people keep calling it a bug and now you call it an exploit. I am not saying it migh not be a bug I am just saying: they never confirmed it. The devs never confirmed or talked about it.. Edited January 9, 2017 by TheMadProphet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarrelK Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 Just try to play it without it it and see how long you last. Edit: and they never confirmed it is an exploit or a bug even thoe you people keep calling it a bug and now you call it an exploit. I am not saying it migh not be a bug I am just saying: they never confirmed the devs never confirmed or talked about it.. If it looks like a bug, behaves like a bug, it is a damn bug. Otherwise, if it was intended, it would heal to full when you had one/two stacks of Kolto Probes too. Operative is very good in solo ranked. Just like skank heal dps sorcs back in the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMadProphet Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 (edited) If it looks like a bug, behaves like a bug, it is a damn bug. Otherwise, if it was intended, it would heal to full when you had one/two stacks of Kolto Probes too. Operative is very good in solo ranked. Just like skank heal dps sorcs back in the day. I am not saying it doesnt look like a bug. I am saying that without it in this new meta operatives would be in a very bad place. Last time you guys complained about ops they nerfed our surge by 20% and nerfed the kolto probes. There was no need for it. they just listened to all the people that use the "nerf operatives!" memes. I 1vs1 a merc in the west turret yesterday. It takes so long to kill them now while they crit for 30k to 40 k I crit under 30k. I kill him and took the node but first you got to wait for the reflect to end, then you dont dps them while the shield is up if you feel like you wont be able to burst them down before it wears off and then there is the "heal to full" kolto over load on top of that. 3 hels to full! I wish my life was that easy!!! With so many nets flying around I dont think this "bug" should be the priority here. Again I am just saying. It is only my opinion. Edited January 9, 2017 by TheMadProphet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frosttj Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 (edited) My personal opinion: Operatives are where they need to be. The other classes over-performing is the problem. Mercs and snipers have tools to kite for days. In fact they have more gap openers, than we currently have closers, and with the current Merc/Sniper heavy meta, we have to save our closers as defensives. Then, they are some of the most dangerous burst damage in the game currently. Where as operatives, have to be in melee range, can't use their #1 defensive if they want to put damage out, and the payoff is average burst damage, and once their CC breaker is off are susceptible to being stunned out and killed even with the 11% dmg mitigation utilities (which not many people are taking the full 11%, especially if you value being able to stay on target). As it stands DPS operatives are not viable in group ranked, period, because of average damage and easily being kited/slowed. We're not kings of burst, and staying on target has been increasingly difficult as ranged classes have continually gotten better (minus sorcs). But that's the 4s meta and it really hasn't ever been DPS operative friendly. The bugged heal to full utility does give operatives a chance to carry a team, but it's only if you're other DPS are on point. My recommendation, is if you want ranged to be surviving, tone down the dmg. If not, then give them all the burst in the world...but not both. Edited January 9, 2017 by frosttj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnzoForMe Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 (edited) Except that people already know which classes are overperforming, or underperforming. Your mathematics purposefully ignore the concept of choice. People aren't born playing a class in solo ranked. They choose which class they que with. My very simple mathematics show what we already know: If you want to be an top tier pvper in solo ranked it's easier with merc than an operative. It is very much a logical assertion that both game balance and "fun" should motivate the devs (and the player base giving them feedback) to push for advanced classes to have equal representation in both solo and group ranked. That means the goal should be 12.5%. How far a class deviates from that from the top tier players is a clear indication of problems. (Merc, cough, 27%, cough) I clearly showed, even by taking super mercs out of the equation, that operatives were not represented fairly in the top tier of solo ranked. That's why I said they're not "hot" as per the title. This post is a mess tbh. You're comingling qualitative and quantatative assumptions to come to the conclusion that 12.5% is statistical balance, which isn't true no matter how many times you keep typing "mathematics". With material differences in class participation, you can't use your even distribution assumption of 12.5%, I don't know how many other ways to say it. Mercs are obviously stronger than operatives in solos, no one is refuting that. Edited January 9, 2017 by EnzoForMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirvington Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 I only see talk of Concealment. Lethality has better off heals, can do more damage from range, and has better CC (flash not breaking from your own dots). I'm not on a super competitive server, but I have the #2 and #3 ops playing Lethality/Ruffian. But you have to play support. Dot everyone, off heal, use your CC and your hard stun to secure a kill on the person your teammates are focusing. And Lethality seems to be parsing better this expansion, so when you do go in for damage, you can actually hurt people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotsanerv Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 I hear you. I'm interested in the feedback you get too. I do great burst damage in concealment, but recently I've been totaled quickly in matches. I lost about 100 rating a few nights ago against the same three sins. As soon as I'd appear, I was stunned and hit hard. The first time, I held off on breaking the stun, and was globaled. Pretty shocking and embarrassing. I took a good flaming for that. Quite frankly, it was the first time I'd taken that kind damage so fast in ranked. When I broke my stun to use cool downs or stealth out, they'd global me the moment I reappeared. Duh, it's what we do. By the 4th match or so, they were having a lot harder time catching me because I knew what to expect, but I'd spent so much time running and healing up that my dps suffered. Unfortunately, my teammates in most of the matches didn't have the burst to make them suffer for chasing me, or rather, they didn't focus the same toon. I did fine in 1v1 when I caught one of the sins alone, but together they broke me. I'd had a problem with multiple nets in row in previous matches, and this was just as bad or worse. I guess worse because I was their food all night. It was definitely demoralizing, but I had too much pride to quit queuing. 1/10 on the night. Worst solo night in my Op's history. Last couple nights have been better, but not a whole lot better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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