Ilum DISCOURAGES PvP

[Gertbeefrobe]

Dear Winter and Hidden,

 

 

You are actually both correct to a certain degree. It is a player issue as much as it is a BW issue. While it is correct to say the players themselves are the cause of this it is also BW that is catering to this sad cycle rather than opposing it and possibly giving us a good example. I will use an analogy to try and illustrate my point.

 

You are walking down the street when you notice a small crowd gathered near an alley. You walk over and manage to make your way through the crowd and see down the alley 3 large men beating on a woman mercilessly. You can do 1 of three things. Stop them, join in or just ignore it. The first two choices will affect the mindset of the crowd gathered and you will likely gain support for your actions. The third choice will simply turn you into another member of the crowd.

 

This might be a bad analogy but it seems about right to me. The problem is not really something an individual nor a company can fix outright as the root lies back in time over a century. Only social engineering can truly fix this problem (its what caused it in the first place) but some might not want to be changed. I too am disappointed with Ilum because of the quest trading but in the end no one person nor company is going to change anything overnight. Grab some like minded folks and do what you know needs to be done!

[Toonces]

The WAR circle jerk of zone caps was started because that was the easiest way to level up your rr. What stopped that was small guilds getting fed up with it and deciding to stop the opposing faction from being able to cap BOs. Once we started doing that more people started to join in and the CJ'ers went to a different zone so we followed them and killed them there. PVP happens when you make it happen, the objectives are supposed to give u something to fight over, if all u want is gear then stop sayn u want to pvp.

 

This basically.

 

BO swapping wasn't a problem for very long in WAR, people just are emphasizing that this happened in order to make their points. The majority of PvP in Warhammer, at least after some early frustrations with BO swapping was actual PvP. Were there people who insisted on trying this? Of course, but they were subsequently beaten down once identified. WAR failed because the developers failed to implement their endgame mechanics properly (or at all in part), and to a lesser extent, due to balance issues, not because of BO swapping. Rather than fixing the problems, they tried to plug a sinking ship by streamlining the game, removing features, making it easier to play etc.

 

Mythic style PvP can work here, this game is has the perfect platform for it, it just has to be properly implemented. Bioware is at fault here, they released with PvP tacked on as an afterthought, not a fully functioning feature. Ilum is evidence of this, as is the ridiculous low number of Warzones we have.

 

I’m willing to give it time, but Bioware, this needs to be on your list of priorities.

[csward]

I am posting because WAR pvp was bad, and I really, really want this game fixed. There are tons of PvP issues out now. Thank you OP for shedding light on this. BIOWARE WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO FIX PVP?

[xMrBill]

The problem is that this is a digital fantasy world and there is no moral imperative to defeat your enemy. Take a look at the matrix below. It is well representative of Ilum. If you fight, you either get nothing or meager rewards. If you cooperate you either get nothing or great rewards. In any scenario, you tie your opponent for total rewards gained. There is no way to win this game other than choose cooperate every time. The way the game is designed PVPing in Ilum means you are choosing to lose.

 

[font="Courier New"]
             | B Cooperates | B Fights
-----------------------------------------
A Cooperates  |    500,500   |    0,0            
A Fights      |      0,0     |   50,50    [/font]  

Edited December 28, 2011 by xMrBill

[YanksfanJP]

You cannot point all the blame at BW. A large amount of PvP'ers are just honestly not there to PvP but get gear. These are not PvP'ers.

 

For me, I don't need XP, I don't care if I get nothing, it's the thrill of a good PvP battle that matters.

 

If you want PvP, MAKE IT HAPPEN, don't run around allowing others to cap.

 

TH

 

The best part is that these are all the same people who are constantly complaining that there are no incentive or rewards for open world PvP. Every thread that says "we want open world PvP" is from these type of people.

 

Open World PvP is its own reward. All the best stories of Open World PvP come from random, no-reward fights. Sometimes on a massive scale for no other reason than because you can. Southshore-Tarren Mill, fights between guilds in front of raid instances that sometimes took up the entire raid time, things like that.

 

If all you clowns want Open World PvP that badly, go running around and find someone of the other faction and start a fight with him. There is no such thing as "I only want open world pvp if I get something tangible for it." The whole point of it is just to randomly fight with people. If you want something with more rewards that is more organized, go queue up and do warzones.

[Desgarden]

today i was on ilum, and i saw an imp and a republic guy just taking it in turns to blow up eachothers objectives, in other words, you actually hinder yourself by interfering with your enemys activities, its more productive to just let them get on with it so you can get your epix

 

GJ bioware!

 

after musical BO's in Warhammer youd have thought they'd realise rewarding people for NOT fighting would be a bad idea, id imagined theyd do what made sense and make defending this worthwhile, upgradeable the longer you hold on to them, etc etc, but no - another system that encourages you to ignore the enemy

 

facepalm!

 

how do developers make this stuff?? when its SO APPARENT, i mean, SO, APPARENT to me and a million other gamers, how did this even get past a design brief?? id have seen the problem in the first instant

 

CLUES, im selling them, bioware please come buy

 

I haven't experienced Illum yet but it comes as no surprise. That sound like a typical Mythic mechanic (at least for those who played WAR). You should think that some people learn from their maaaany mistakes they made before - noooope!

[MigSebes]

It's ok I like the free PvP gear.

[xMrBill]

 

Open World PvP is its own reward. All the best stories of Open World PvP come from random, no-reward fights.

 

 

There has to be a catalyst for it to be sustainable. Southshore was what it was because it forced players from both factions into the same quest areas for a level range that had few other options. That seed of natural conflict needs to be present bfore you get the:

 

[guild]youngling: OMG I got killed by another player while I was trying to quest!

[guild]master: Fear not!! we are on our way to save you!

 

[guild]apprentice: hahaha, I just killed this lowbie trying to... HOLY CRAP THAT IS A BUTT TON OF JEDI!!

[guild]Lord: action? where?

 

Mutually exclusive rewards are the easiest way to spawn that conflict. The issue with those is that the side with the highest population gets the rewards early and put the opponent in a position where they can never possibly compete. These are the "a chest spawns in the woods every 10 minutes. The first side to spend 10 seconds focusing on it without being interupted it wins free epix for all"

 

The other way is to base it off of participation rewards. IE, if you show up and fight you get points for being in the fight. If you save up 100,000 points you get an "immunity from knockbacks" button.

 

 

The next way is points for mutually exclusive accomplishments. These are the "you take a keep, free epix!!" rewards. They always fail because they encourage swapping.

 

Another way to encourage OWPVP is the "faction bonus" system. I am partial to this one as it starts playing in to the fantasy side of the game and gives some small sense of moral imperative to the fight. This is the "if you hold the fortress, your entire faction gets crafting bonuses" reward.

[WINTER__x]

There has to be a catalyst for it to be sustainable. Southshore was what it was because it forced players from both factions into the same quest areas for a level range that had few other options. That seed of natural conflict needs to be present bfore you get the:

 

[guild]youngling: OMG I got killed by another player while I was trying to quest!

[guild]master: Fear not!! we are on our way to save you!

 

[guild]apprentice: hahaha, I just killed this lowbie trying to... HOLY CRAP THAT IS A BUTT TON OF JEDI!!

[guild]Lord: action? where?

 

Mutually exclusive rewards are the easiest way to spawn that conflict. The issue with those is that the side with the highest population gets the rewards early and put the opponent in a position where they can never possibly compete. These are the "a chest spawns in the woods every 10 minutes. The first side to spend 10 seconds focusing on it without being interupted it wins free epix for all"

 

The other way is to base it off of participation rewards. IE, if you show up and fight you get points for being in the fight. If you save up 100,000 points you get an "immunity from knockbacks" button.

 

 

The next way is points for mutually exclusive accomplishments. These are the "you take a keep, free epix!!" rewards. They always fail because they encourage swapping.

 

Another way to encourage OWPVP is the "faction bonus" system. I am partial to this one as it starts playing in to the fantasy side of the game and gives some small sense of moral imperative to the fight. This is the "if you hold the fortress, your entire faction gets crafting bonuses" reward.

 

 

faction bonus doesnt work either imo, i think the best system is taking over something that can be defended, and the more days you defend it for hte stronger it gets, harder to take it, gives more bonuses to your faction, all kinds of stuff

[Arunas]

There is yet another point to consider - you can have characters from both faction on the same server. So you can trade objectives with yourself by logging in to alts from opposite faction. Edited December 28, 2011 by Arunas

[GrinNfool]

Eh IMHO ilum isn't complete. If you look at the objectives they say vulnerable which to me indicates they shouldn't immediately be vulnerable, and the whole map should play sort of tug of war like. Next there is nothing positive gained by taking an objective nor even the whole zone, when it feels like there should be. I think they are intending to implement Ilum in the near future, and just put this half version in so people could get a feel for the zone. I wouldn't be surprised if the first content patch (MAYBE the 2nd but im betting the first) makes Ilum what it is supposed to be.

 

So I can understand the complaints that Ilum isn't finished, but the ones saying Ilum is poorly designed or ruined pvp are jumping the gun a bit. Honestly the map is more or less well designed, could use a few tweaks, and perhaps a fortress type objective in the middle or something, but its an ok map overall.

[Sanicek]

Ilum PVP is actually amazing, look at the massive battle we had going:

 

[laelgon]

I'll admit I've been doing the same thing for the past few days on my server. We just meet up and destroy/repair turrets for 10 minutes and get our bags. There's only 3 or 4 50s on either side right now so we couldn't really have a battle if we wanted to. Not to mention that we got 0 valor when killing each other even though we had buffs saying we earned 100% more valor. We've got no real reason to actually PvP right now. I'm sure it will improve once more people reach 50, but without any rewards for actually PvPing, I can't see Ilum being anything more than a great place to farm bags.

[Biboonz]

make people killed on illum drop mercenary commendations . fixed.

[Ahhmyface]

make people killed on illum drop mercenary commendations . fixed.

 

It's true. Or even have chests like from the tatooine pvp area. Then people will kill each other because they want the spawn.

[Sheneria]

its not so much about the reward/titels but the gear you get from warzones.

 

if you try to pvp in open world without some expertise you will alwas be on a disadvantage (i was lucky and only missing 4 pieces of the pvp gear).

 

so you have to grind the stupid boring warzones in order to get the gear asap.

 

i do it since i hit 50, log in at 1pm get my daily quests from republic fleet, go to ilum swap some points then win 3 warzones, log off. doesn't take more than 1-2 hours. sometimes i do the dailys on ilum or that other planet too and boy you can be sure once i have all my pvp gear i won't set a foot into a instanced warzone again.

[Sixil]

Why even have instanced Warzones? What the hell will it take for an MMO to take a page from DAoC's book? If you have to have battlegrounds, have open world battlegrounds. What a novel f**king idea - it works, it doesn't get stale, what's the problem? Oh, I hear Hutt Ball 900000 times is a blast. ffs - garbage PvP game

[WINTER__x]

make people killed on illum drop mercenary commendations . fixed.

 

theres a million better solutions than their current setup

[Waron]

It is becoming more and more obvious no one form Mythic was given a significant amount of imput on this MMO's PvP... they were all probably handed a broom and told to sweep the floor while Bioware MMO-PvP rookies did the "heavy lifting".

 

I disagree, this game stinks of mythic ideology a LONG way. They've never understood how to balance factions. Because in their only succsessfull game the 3 faction system balanced everything for them (aka 2 factions working toether to crush the upper dog etc, worked great in planetside too)

 

(Why do they always insist on having 2 and only 2 factions T_T)

[WINTER__x]

I disagree, this game stinks of mythic ideology a LONG way. They've never understood how to balance factions. Because in their only succsessfull game the 3 faction system balanced everything for them (aka 2 factions working toether to crush the upper dog etc, worked great in planetside too)

 

(Why do they always insist on having 2 and only 2 factions T_T)

 

even worse why do they insist on more BO swapping

[warkat]

How hard is it to make a bounty poster that says kill 200 people per week and get illum commendations to buy mounts/ pets or cool looking things like a slave wookie or some **** anything to encourage world PvP because right now huttball and the other warzones aren't doing it for me, you know why? its because If i wanted to be in an instance all day i would be raiding.....wtb WORLD PVPPPPPPPP

[Nerexis]

This is the same issue that WAR had with its open world PvP. Order and Destruction would just run around merry-go-round style and capture the castles without bothering to defend the ones they already took simply because the rewards for capturing are much greater than defending.

 

You would think BW would have learned this lesson since Mythic is in the same parent company...

[WINTER__x]

How hard is it to make a bounty poster that says kill 200 people per week and get illum commendations to buy mounts/ pets or cool looking things like a slave wookie or some **** anything to encourage world PvP because right now huttball and the other warzones aren't doing it for me, you know why? its because If i wanted to be in an instance all day i would be raiding.....wtb WORLD PVPPPPPPPP

 

yeah its ridiculous

[CHRISGG]

This is the same issue that WAR had with its open world PvP. Order and Destruction would just run around merry-go-round style and capture the castles without bothering to defend the ones they already took simply because the rewards for capturing are much greater than defending.

 

You would think BW would have learned this lesson since Mythic is in the same parent company...

 

That's not true. You got ridiculous amounts of renown for kills in WAR. In comparison you get next to no valor for kills in swtor and valor also does nothing except once at 60.

[WINTER__x]

That's not true. You got ridiculous amounts of renown for kills in WAR. In comparison you get next to no valor for kills in swtor and valor also does nothing except once at 60.

 

this, we have even less incentive than in WAR to owpvp, im cancelling later today