Ilum DISCOURAGES PvP

[Ahhmyface]

I quit Warhammer (a game, I loved, mind you) because of swapping, about 2 months after release.

 

I wish players weren't so stupid. I wish the game makers would pull their head out of their ***...

[tofu-]

Sounds like I'm going to have to contact some Republic players on Veela to arrange this for myself.

 

9 more levels and i'm with ya

[DarthOvertone]

You cannot point all the blame at BW. A large amount of PvP'ers are just honestly not there to PvP but get gear. These are not PvP'ers.

 

For me, I don't need XP, I don't care if I get nothing, it's the thrill of a good PvP battle that matters.

 

If you want PvP, MAKE IT HAPPEN, don't run around allowing others to cap.

 

Excellent post. The issue as described by the OP doesn't appear to be a BW/Mythic problem, but a player issue. Unfortunately, there are a lot of Carebear PvErs disguised as endgame PvPers.

 

Although I would like to see some sort of reward for open world kills. For instance, an Open World Wartab of some sort, or a Title progression deed. Don't need gear or xp, but would be nice to have something to track my Imp Hunting progression aside from an archive of screenshots.

[Hypernetic]

Maybe you should consider Operations? I hear they are all about rewards.

 

When you play sports, do you play them to enjoy the sport or just some random trophey? They trophey is always nice, but that doesn't explain why millions play the game with no endgame result apart from enjoyment.

 

That's what PvP is, it's basically a sport. Yes rewards are nice, but if you're enjoyment comes down to completing dailies, then PvP isn't all for you.

 

It is sad that these same people then bash BW for not having made their PvP more exciting, when these people don't even like it truly in the first place.

 

Little presents get old eventually, you will never end up satisfied.

 

TH

 

It doesn't matter what I personally want or care for. These games (ToR, WoW, etc) are loot treadmills. The majority of people who play them do so to get better gear. There is <1% of the population who is in it for the pure competition.

 

I played on a very competitive PVP server in WoW, when people found out that it was better to swap Tol Barad every few hours instead of actually fighting for it, they did so. In fact, they did so on EVERY server until Blizzard hotfixed it.

 

The same will happen here if Bioware doesn't change it.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Hypernetic

[WINTER__x]

Excellent post. The issue as described by the OP doesn't appear to be a BW/Mythic problem, but a player issue. Unfortunately, there are a lot of Carebear PvErs disguised as endgame PvPers.

 

Although I would like to see some sort of reward for open world kills. For instance, an Open World Wartab of some sort, or a Title progression deed. Don't need gear or xp, but would be nice to have something to track my Imp Hunting progression aside from an archive of screenshots.

 

again you're just completely missing the point, it would be better if they have NO rewards for anything, right now you are rewarded FOR ignoring the enemy, it actually gets you ahead, if you kill them you are screwing yourself over, how can you honestly think this isnt a game design problem?? they make it beneficial to ignore the enemy, and you expect most players to still pvp? when i was levelling i would happily leap into 1v2's etc and kill allsorts of mother*******, but when it HAMPERS my characters progression?? heck no, and this is coming form a guy that leapt out of a 40 minute balloon ride 35 minutes into it to Aerial-gank some poor imp

[Hidden]

again you're just completely missing the point, it would be better if they have NO rewards for anything, right now you are rewarded FOR ignoring the enemy, it actually gets you ahead, if you kill them you are screwing yourself over, how can you honestly think this isnt a game design problem?? they make it beneficial to ignore the enemy, and you expect most players to still pvp? when i was levelling i would happily leap into 1v2's etc and kill allsorts of mother*******, but when it HAMPERS my characters progression?? heck no, and this is coming form a guy that leapt out of a 40 minute balloon ride 35 minutes into it to Aerial-gank some poor imp

 

I think YOU'RE missing the point.

 

Fact is, true PvP'ers care little about PROGRESSION, just about the COMBAT.

 

Oh noes you don't get your little skirt because you have to kill someone!!!111one *flaps hands*

 

Perhaps this is a losing battle, but I can't stand those screaming at BW for progression faults in PvP like this situation here. The sheer idea of allowing people to win so I can get my skirt is alien, and honestly shameful for me.

 

This is of course my opinion in all due respects, but people like YOU, don't deserve an opinion on PvP when your first aim is reward over the game itself.

 

It's the same opinion I have for those who own football teams to make money.

 

TH

Edited December 28, 2011 by Hidden

[WINTER__x]

I think YOU'RE missing the point.

 

Fact is, true PvP'ers care little about PROGRESSION, just about the COMBAT.

 

Oh noes you don't get your little skirt because you have to kill someone!!!111one *flaps hands*

 

Perhaps this is a losing battle, but I can't stand those screaming at BW for progression faults in PvP like this situation here. The sheer idea of allowing people to win so I can get my skirt is alien, and honestly shameful for me.

 

This is of course my opinion in all due respects, but people like YOU, don't deserve an opinion on PvP when your first aim is reward over the game itself.

 

It's the same opinion I have for those who own football teams to make money.

 

TH

 

 

we'll see how lively the world pvp is in a week or two from now shall we i love killing people for the sake of it, but honestly when killing them means i dont get that HUGE upgrade (just hit 50, the epics are way** better than the gear you have beforehand) then screw it, heck, i'll even kill the guy after i have my objectives - but if you think 99% dont agree with me, you're sorely mistaken

 

i realise world pvp is its own reward, i played Eve and SWG, i have led hundreds of people into battle over rivalries and disputes where there is no reward but the fight itself, but when fighting gimps my character??

 

if you dont see the game design fault there you're just plain stupid, go ahead, report me, give me an infraction - ANYONE that cant see that is stupid, quote me on it all you like

 

 

have you even BEEN to ilum? you dont win or lose anything for the dailys/weeklys, its just 1 objective you can swap back and forth, its not like you're cpaping their base then they cap yours, its shooting a missle at a walker, then waiting, then shooting a missle at the same walker

 

if i have been wasting my breath on a lowbie please let me know so i can stop even talking to you, speak when you have actually seen the state of it

 

you can complete your WEEKLY quest in literally 3 minutes

 

id love if this game was player economy with free and open pvp etc, but it isnt, its a carebear grindfest and im trying to make the most of it, and if bioware ever want anyone to actually fight on ilum, they need to make it so you dont OWNGOAL by actually fighting, and preferably change the daily/weekly to killing people

Edited December 28, 2011 by WINTER__x

[Hidden]

we'll see how lively the world pvp is in a week or two from now shall we i love killing people for the sake of it, but honestly when killing them means i dont get that HUGE upgrade (just hit 50, the epics are way** better than the gear you have beforehand) then screw it, heck, i'll even kill the guy after i have my objectives - but if you think 99% dont agree with me, you're sorely mistaken

 

i realise world pvp is its own reward, i played Eve and SWG, i have led hundreds of people into battle over rivalries and disputes where there is no reward but the fight itself, but when fighting gimps my character??

 

if you dont see the game design fault there you're just plain stupid, go ahead, report me, give me an infraction - ANYONE that cant see that is stupid, quote me on it all you like

 

"true pvpers" you sound like one of those slowbies from DAOC or something, probably would cry if they were introduced to REAL pvp (Eve)

 

I don't report, thankfully for you and I, I don't cry over differing opinions.

 

As for EvE I enjoyed the PvP

 

I just wholly believe that yes, it's an annoying fault of the system, but that doesn't mean you have to stop PvP'ing just because you want a skirt. I cannot get any clearer in what I said, but honestly I don't believe you are a PvP'er if the idea of losing out on a reward STOPS your PvP, of course that doesn't take anything away from you, as I said, I just can't see how anything you say is relavent when it comes down to it, you choose reward > The action itself.

 

My over-arching point is, fine that system CAN happen. Your whining that it discourages PvP, when all I'm saying is, it doesn't. It discourages AWARDS, but not PvP.

 

I'm arguing for PvP itself, hopefully the previous sentence clearly defines the difference in our game styles and why arguing for PvP is wrong.

 

One last time in case you miss it, THIS STYLE DISCOURAGES THE AWARDS, PvP DOESN'T GET DISCOURAGED.

 

It only matters if the barbie means more to you.

 

TH

[pherball]

It's pretty much exactly what happened with WAR, and we know how that ended. I brought this up in beta and every s*** on me.

 

Make players worth 250-500 Valor for a solo kill (divided by number of players if grouped), instead of 30, 1 merc comm, xp, credits and this will probably work itself out. Would also need to change the weekly to kill x players instead of capping walkers.

 

Until something happens this is all Ilum will ever be. OPvP does not exist.

Edited December 28, 2011 by pherball

[DarthOvertone]

heck no, and this is coming form a guy that leapt out of a 40 minute balloon ride 35 minutes into it to Aerial-gank some poor imp

 

Dude, that is awesome! haha

 

You should have Fraps'd that shiz...

[WINTER__x]

Dude, that is awesome! haha

 

You should have Fraps'd that shiz...

 

14 of my guildies in the balloon watched, i then followed them to the datacron, force leapt up to 1 of them in a duel, and still got my reward, then when 1 of them fell down by mistake, i FORCE PUSHED him up (in another duel)

 

great day!

 

(this was after we killed a world boss and wiped an imperial raid 4 times that wanted to kill the boss aswell)

 

its kinda a shame we didnt all jump out of the balloon, can you imagine the guys face?

Edited December 28, 2011 by WINTER__x

[Ethias]

You'd think that the designers that made WAR would realize that if you have no defensive bonus for anything, no reward for killing the other faction, then you'd end up having no PvP.

[DarthOvertone]

OPvP does not exist.

 

Sorry for the double post, but saw this late. You are actually very wrong. OPvP does exist. My sig is proof.

 

Next...

[WINTER__x]

You'd think that the designers that made WAR would realize that if you have no defensive bonus for anything, no reward for killing the other faction, then you'd end up having no PvP.

 

yep you would have imagined so

[Ahhmyface]

The obvious solution to all of this crap is to just make HOLDING objectives reward the mission completion (say, 30 minutes).

[Ahhmyface]

I don't report, thankfully for you and I, I don't cry over differing opinions.

 

As for EvE I enjoyed the PvP

 

I just wholly believe that yes, it's an annoying fault of the system, but that doesn't mean you have to stop PvP'ing just because you want a skirt. I cannot get any clearer in what I said, but honestly I don't believe you are a PvP'er if the idea of losing out on a reward STOPS your PvP, of course that doesn't take anything away from you, as I said, I just can't see how anything you say is relavent when it comes down to it, you choose reward > The action itself.

 

My over-arching point is, fine that system CAN happen. Your whining that it discourages PvP, when all I'm saying is, it doesn't. It discourages AWARDS, but not PvP.

 

I'm arguing for PvP itself, hopefully the previous sentence clearly defines the difference in our game styles and why arguing for PvP is wrong.

 

One last time in case you miss it, THIS STYLE DISCOURAGES THE AWARDS, PvP DOESN'T GET DISCOURAGED.

 

It only matters if the barbie means more to you.

 

TH

 

You're missing the point. Part of pvp is being stronger than other people. If you pvp and get weaker, you'll actually get better at pvp by not pvping.

[WINTER__x]

You're missing the point. Part of pvp is being stronger than other people. If you pvp and get weaker, you'll actually get better at pvp by not pvping.

 

this, exactly this ^

[LaManoNera]

You cannot point all the blame at BW. A large amount of PvP'ers are just honestly not there to PvP but get gear. These are not PvP'ers.

 

For me, I don't need XP, I don't care if I get nothing, it's the thrill of a good PvP battle that matters.

 

If you want PvP, MAKE IT HAPPEN, don't run around allowing others to cap.

 

TH

 

This x1000

 

They don't want exciting, competitive PvP. They want gear. Plain and simple. EZ mode loot whores are what ruin things like this.

[Nilyari]

If the bonuses granted are for having the objective rather than taking it, people will focus on taking the objectives when necessary to obtain the bonuses. There should be no credit for taking objectives because even outside this kind of base-swapping, objectives will often be undefended (especially late-night) and pvp awards should not be given when pvp isn't happening. In the end this encourages the carebears to come out and play because they need to if they want the rewards.

 

World PvP tends to work better when it is simple. Titles are enough to allow the best to show their prowess, and developers should know that by now.

[anedorivan]

we'll see how lively the world pvp is in a week or two from now shall we i love killing people for the sake of it, but honestly when killing them means i dont get that HUGE upgrade (just hit 50, the epics are way** better than the gear you have beforehand) then screw it, heck, i'll even kill the guy after i have my objectives - but if you think 99% dont agree with me, you're sorely mistaken

 

i realise world pvp is its own reward, i played Eve and SWG, i have led hundreds of people into battle over rivalries and disputes where there is no reward but the fight itself, but when fighting gimps my character??

 

This is why I get my daily done and then start pvping. I really wish Bioware would make the quest require us to kill the opposite faction or defend objectives instead of taking them.

[Raigon]

I do this myself, i made a level 1 republic toon asked a level 50 to help at Ilum to get our pvp dailys done and since then we been doing it ever since.

 

It so easy get it done nothing stopping you. And why would you try pvp in Illum to begin with? there is no reward for killing players its just a broken pvp system.

 

Hell i even made a level 11 republic with a spaceship and got to Ilum to logout and log back in to cycle the objectives.

[Cantnerfme]

It amazes me with so many past/present games that did/do pvp successfully that they implement something so boring that actually fosters enemies cooperating. They should speak with the EVE devs, that game has its flaws but they know what drives player conflict, how to motivate pvp and how to implement it.

 

1. Provide trophies that you can easily show off and brag about. (killmails in eve) This helps players get their Epeen on. Bragging you just killed a lvl 50 with full epic gear with proof would be kinda cool.

2. Provide some sort of economic gain to holding territory (sovereignty in eve)

A. by giving passive $$ or access to more profitable farming mobs or better access to valuable/rare mats/gear

 

Two things are true for majority of MMOoers, They will always take the route of least resistance and will always strive for the best gear. They want to be the best and in order to do that they need the best equipment. If pve provides the best gear pvp'ers will grind it out. If taking turns capturing points with the enemy provides the quickest way to finish a quest/ get epix they will cooperate.

 

In a game called Star Wars in the middle of an epic war how can pvp not be a pivotable part? Now i speak for only myself but if Bioware wants this to be more than kotor 3 for me they need to implement some open world pvp that has meaning/incentives to participate not grinding, predictable WZ's. However, i doubt they will and after 2-3 months my subscription will likely lapse.

[mrkab]

It is becoming more and more obvious no one form Mythic was given a significant amount of imput on this MMO's PvP... they were all probably handed a broom and told to sweep the floor while Bioware MMO-PvP rookies did the "heavy lifting".

 

Sounds to me like Bioware hired developers from a failed PvP MMO in which they ignored great user suggestions and implemented terrible systems that encouraged objective swappin and I can only assume also thought the definition of "fun" was spending hours in a hallway or staircase since every design they had guaranteed it.

 

Oh wait... that's exactly what they did.

[xMrBill]

Game theory is not hard. If you provide rewards for any scenario, people will tend towards the most efficient path to those rewards. In the case of Ilum the solution is easy. Attack BOs that are not defended and refuse to defend any that you control. The rewards encourage cooperative play, so that is what you will get.

 

Debasing the discussion into "who is a real PVPer and who is a loot whore" argument is pointless and traps you in the "blame the player for the game" mentality. I prefer good PVP. If the top-tier PVP gear comes from cooperating, I will cooperate until I get it. Personally I prefered DAoC's model. End game progression was driven solely by realm points (valor). If you want valor, you had better get to killing. Instanced PVP is anathema to ever developing good OWPVP. Why would anyone get into an imbalanced fight with no time limit when there is a balanced fight with a time limit a click away?

 

Unfortunately RVR style OWPVP does not work in a 2-faction game due to the inevitable faction imbalance. The only prayer then is to open up FFA PVP with meaningful rewards for actually participating that come at a potentially faster rate than queuing warfronts. The FFA zone on Tattoine has promise. Making the chests show up on the mini-map and increasing their spawn rate would help that dramatically. As it is now, there is usually one or two people trolling and hoping to get lucky.

Edited December 28, 2011 by xMrBill

[WINTER__x]

the last post is good ^