RNG is perfect for SWTOR and I'll explain why.

[Aowin]

You're really pushing this aren't you? Have you even seen the forums lately? You do realise I'm talking about the forum response yeah? Would you like actual numbers or a source or whatever? Are you actually going to ask for that now?

 

Biowares word isn't gospel, you know.

 

Welcome to the game, where you will have to grind for hours and hours on one character to get your gear, unlike before when things were easier for players. Do you honestly think there are more pros for people than cons? My my.

 

What you're talking about is the Galactic Command interface. Yes, I agree, that is easier for new comers because it's all on one interface.

 

New to the game and want to do ranked? Well click the button with no experience, jump right in! It'll be fun for everyone!

 

On a serious note, what does the galactic command interface have to do with RNG?

 

My point is the forums comprise of only subscribers. Within that portion of the community, likely 1% of subscribers actually come to the forums to post (the rest actually play the game they pay for). In other words, it wouldn't matter if every single thread, including this one, was saying Galactic Command was horrible. We do not represent the entirety of the SWTOR community, not even close. In other words, Galactic Command, like most features players come to complain about, is being criticized in an echo chamber of a handful of folks that make it out to seem as if the entire community is appalled by the changes. This is just not reality.

 

BioWare creates the rules and sets the tone. If you are really so offended by the changes, why are you still paying BioWare money?

 

This system is far more fair and equal to newcomers than its predecessor. The system, from your perspective, isn't fair for you and other veterans because BioWare has spoiled you with a lack of gear progression for years. SWTOR, by far, had the worst gear progression I've ever seen in an MMO (it was virtually non-existent). BioWare is finally on the right path to correcting previous errors and producing content in line with the time it takes to progress to new tiers of gear.

 

Newcomers were jumping into ranked pre-5.0 as well. The only requirement was to have 2018 expertise, which you and many others agree was so easy and fast to obtain that anyone could do it in a few hours.

 

RNG is just a way to provide an artificial buffer so players don't progress too quickly even if they are rapidly moving through command ranks. It's a necessary evil to pace players so they don't blow through the entire expansion in a week or two.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

considering only subs get access to GC, then that doesn't really matter that we only have subs on forums lol

[DarthWoad]

My point is the forums comprise of only subscribers. Within that portion of the community, likely 1% of subscribers actually come to the forums to post (the rest actually play the game they pay for). In other words, it wouldn't matter if every single thread, including this one, was saying Galactic Command was horrible. We do not represent the entirety of the SWTOR community, not even close. In other words, Galactic Command, like most features players come to complain about, is being criticized in an echo chamber of a handful of folks that make it out to seem as if the entire community is appalled by the changes. This is just not reality.

 

 

Ah, the classic "forum is only a minority" response. Well, I can tell why you used it, considering almost everyone here disagrees with you.

BioWare creates the rules and sets the tone. If you are really so offended by the changes, why are you still paying BioWare money?

 

Again a classic "Why are you still here?" argument. Let me guess, you'll say "don't like it, don't play it"?

 

 

This system is far more fair and equal to newcomers than its predecessor. The system, from your perspective, isn't fair for you and other veterans because BioWare has spoiled you with a lack of gear progression for years. SWTOR, by far, had the worst gear progression I've ever seen in an MMO (it was virtually non-existent). BioWare is finally on the right path to correcting previous errors and producing content in line with the time it takes to progress to new tiers of gear.

 

Well I disagree entirely with your opinion. SWTOR NOW has the worst gear progression. A random lockbox gear progression. Do you honestly think that's better than doing content and getting drops from bosses? What Bioware have done, instead of refining the current model, they change it entirely.

 

Newcomers were jumping into ranked pre-5.0 as well. The only requirement was to have 2018 expertise, which you and many others agree was so easy and fast to obtain that anyone could do it in a few hours.

 

And took a lot more time compared to now.

 

RNG is just a way to provide an artificial buffer so players don't progress too quickly even if they are rapidly moving through command ranks. It's a necessary evil to pace players so they don't blow through the entire expansion in a week or two.

 

This expansion was almost entirely story. You could get from 65-70 through the story. That is a moot argument. The rest is still the same content we've always had, only now new players are going to see a massive grind wall in their way to get gear. And lets be honest, almost all MMOS are about getting better gear, playing with friends, working together etc.. And right now Bioware have made it the worst progression type of any MMO out there. You don't even need a raid group to get the best gear out there.

 

Can you tell me somethnig you dislike about the game? Oh and before you respond, I'll give my response now: If you don't like it, don't play the game. Simple.

Edited December 8, 2016 by DarthWoad

[Aowin]

considering only subs get access to GC, then that doesn't really matter that we only have subs on forums lol

 

The point that was being made is the "world isn't ending" and the "majority of players" aren't quitting the game. A few vocal members of the community are, but that happens with every major update and expansion. As always, it's business as usual and SWTOR will continue to live on.

[DarthWoad]

The point that was being made is the "world isn't ending" and the "majority of players" aren't quitting the game. A few vocal members of the community are, but that happens with every major update and expansion. As always, it's business as usual and SWTOR will continue to live on.

 

Keep telling yourself that.

[TheThunderstruck]

The problem here is that for example my mate got 5 pieces of set bonus at level 20 of this new BS exp on his merc. On his PT he is also 20 and has none. And then there's me - level 36 and has 1 drop.

The reason i still play this month: new gear doesn't matter. Few days ago NiM DF was closed with 65 gear, proving it's irrelevant to gear up in 5.0. That's for pve. In PvP( both ranked and regs ) bolster gives you more stats in 208 than in full 230 set bonus. Which proves u don't need it in pvp either.

I understand that this game is trying to add some grind to it, like Asian games have (PW, BnS) but the difference here is that BWs system is utter ****. Example: in BnS you need to farm specific weapons to upgrade your own. This specific weapons have really-really-really-I-spent-3-days-in-this-dungeon-already small chance to drop. BUT u know exactly were it drops and how to get it. And now look at swtor. You have boxes with absolute RNG chances of gear. Lets say new player joins game and wants to do NiM progress. Back in the day (like 2 weeks ago kek) guild he joins makes gearing run to provide him with basic set bonus (like we did, for example) so he could start progressing with guild. Now it's impossible, because everyone must grind on their own and might not get anything.

on the other news: after they nerfed cxp from mobs there are literally premades of AFK people on regs and afk people in rwz because they joined just for ez 700 cxp. Will BW do something about it? yes, just like they did to wintrading (nothing).

On the 1st pages someone gave a good idea - keep this BS system for all those newbies but give veterans (those who still fancy gearing) old system back where we could farm gear in Opses (make top stuff drop from NiMs, like in 2.0) and most people will be happy.

[eartharioch]

PvP in MMOs has existed far longer than competitive multiplayer in most other games.

lolwtf? I started PVPing in the late 70s...on the Atari [2600]...in a game called "Combat"...which was the starter game that came with the system. I'm not claiming that it was the first, but it was way before MMOs were a thing.

 

With expertise now gone, gear matters even more now. No, bolster does not help nearly as much as you think it does. ... Again, gear still matters in this game. If it didn't, you wouldn't have half the forums complaining about Galactic Command. Gear doesn't just matter in operations. If anything, it matters more in PvP as that slight advantage in stats can mean the difference between life and death.

Newsflash: everybody that is complaining about GC and PVP knows this...this is *why* we are complaining. We want PVP to be about skill, not gear.

 

Logically, the only people that would prefer PVP to be about gear instead of skill would be the people who have more gear than skill...and hey, guess what...BW is selling gear for cash....it's almost like they are making it so that people can pay to win...

Edited December 8, 2016 by eartharioch

[Aowin]

lolwtf? I started PVPing in the late 70s...on the Atari [2600]...in a game called "Combat"...which was the starter game that came with the system. I'm not claiming that it was the first, but it was way before MMOs were a thing.

 

 

Newsflash: everybody that is complaining about GC and PVP knows this...this is *why* we are complaining. We want PVP to be about skill, not gear.

 

Logically, the only people that would prefer PVP to be about gear instead of skill would be the people who have more gear than skill...and hey, guess what...BW is selling gear for cash....it's almost like they are making it so that people can pay to win...

 

MMOs started as MUDs and they existed back as far as the 70s. With regard to the term "PvP," I meant specifically online multiplayer interactions. As MMORPGs are obviously online, that is what I meant by PvP. I'm not referring to local competitive multiplayer or LAN parties. MMORPGs were really at the forefront of computer entertainment when it came to online capabilities. There are always a few exceptions, but MMORPGs were really the games that began pushing the boundaries of what an MMORPG could be in what was then the early days of the internet.

 

Here's where I disagree. The gear you have (and min/maxed) is part of the skill equation. Most MMOs do not have a PvP system where gear doesn't matter and you just go in with only "player skill" being a factor. Most MMOs do have gear progression, even for PvP, and part of honing your skills and creating the optimal character is finding the perfect blend of gear, rotation, strategy, etc. Truth be told, even with gear playing a factor, PvP is still largely based on player skill. Gear isn't going to determine whether you cap an objective or not or focus on a healer. Gear is merely a supplement.

 

As the system actually stands right now, PvP is far more fair than it was pre-5.0. With the removal of expertise and everybody currently being on the same tier, gear really isn't a factor. That could change once players hit tier 2, but for now the system is actually more balance than it has ever been in the history of the game.

 

Funny you say that, considering I was rated the best Light Side Jedi and Melee player in Star Wars Galaxies on Shadowfire. I was also the best Guardian Tank on Shien for progression raiding and for PvP leading the best Republic PvP guild on the server. I was also crowned Emperor of Cyrodiil three times during the early days of ESO, which in case you don't know only the top rated player in the entire PvP campaign of the winning faction can be crowned emperor. I know you are trying to imply that I need gear as a crutch to excel in PvP, but I dominate just fine without gear.

 

My point, and which you happen to be missing, is that there is more to PvP than just knowing your rotation. There are a large variety of factors that play into one's "skill," and gear is merely a part of that calculus. Nine times out of ten, the player with more skill but worse armor would win in a PvP encounter (as long as their gear has expertise).

[BarrinMarshall]

It is NOT an equal playing field.

 

That is the entire problem with having a RNG choice that ranges from 'nothing useful' to 'vital for end game content'

 

Two people can level Galactic Command 1 - 50, and end up with entirely different rewards. One could have a full set of 230's with bonus. One could have an inventory of companion gifts, greens with stats worse then they already had and some reputation tokens for maxed out factions. (I am currently at 20 command levels across a couple of toons, I have yet to receive anything I can use, and my toons are currently in a mix of 208 and 216 vendor purples)

 

When some content requires the gear, having RNG at that level is plain wrong.And very, very far from 'a level playing field'.

 

RNG is fine if it decides between something useful and something special, RNG is just plane daft if it decides between something and nothing in end game content.

 

Your last sentence of your post should be carved in stone and decorated in gold and posted on every door in the BW Austin offices.

[Zasszz]

Here's where I disagree. The gear you have (and min/maxed) is part of the skill equation. Most MMOs do not have a PvP system where gear doesn't matter and you just go in with only "player skill" being a factor. Most MMOs do have gear progression, even for PvP, and part of honing your skills and creating the optimal character is finding the perfect blend of gear, rotation, strategy, etc. Truth be told, even with gear playing a factor, PvP is still largely based on player skill. Gear isn't going to determine whether you cap an objective or not or focus on a healer. Gear is merely a supplement.

This is the part that you dont get.

When I leveled my chars through storylines I ended up on rishi hitting lvl 65 with alot of data crystals and from the revan chapter 1 additional 300 crystals. Enough for a full set of 208 gear. As a subscriber.

For pvp player its similar. They ran warzones, got warzone commendations and bought their gear once they aquired enough.

THATS simple and for F2P players it was similar because they could buy purple gear easily like in other MMOs and run flashpoints/operations for gear.

 

Now only subscribers get gear, if they are lucky. I dont know how players get gear through pvp. So the only guaranteed method to get gear is through crew skills and thats very expensive right now because you need a buttload of luck to get the right schematics. No gear from H2s, FPs, OPs or uprisings.

 

How you can mistake that for a better system is beyond me.

 

As the system actually stands right now, PvP is far more fair than it was pre-5.0. With the removal of expertise and everybody currently being on the same tier, gear really isn't a factor. That could change once players hit tier 2, but for now the system is actually more balance than it has ever been in the history of the game.

Except that only the lucky ones that grind things get gear.

 

Funny you say that, considering I was rated the best Light Side Jedi and Melee player in Star Wars Galaxies on Shadowfire. I was also the best Guardian Tank on Shien for progression raiding and for PvP leading the best Republic PvP guild on the server. I was also crowned Emperor of Cyrodiil three times during the early days of ESO, which in case you don't know only the top rated player in the entire PvP campaign of the winning faction can be crowned emperor. I know you are trying to imply that I need gear as a crutch to excel in PvP, but I dominate just fine without gear.

So what? Doesnt change that you get nearly everything wrong about 4.0 and 5.0 gearing.

 

My point, and which you happen to be missing, is that there is more to PvP than just knowing your rotation. There are a large variety of factors that play into one's "skill," and gear is merely a part of that calculus. Nine times out of ten, the player with more skill but worse armor would win in a PvP encounter (as long as their gear has expertise).

Expertise and all the other stats are gear related. You can only gear up if you have a consistant gearing system. No gear, no amount of skill is going to make you win against an opponent with more luck with the gearing system.

 

I still doubt that you are a beta player considering you have been demonstrably wrong the whole timeabout nearly everything. Its likely that you dont care if you are wrong. At this point you are only a troll. Bye.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

NO WAY!!! is the forum warzone over??? :D:D:D:D i was enjoying myself while i read over the 54 pages of it >.> :p:p

[curulz]

Galactic Command changes all of that and will give many newcomers an opportunity to do many things (progression raiding among them) for the first time.

 

While it removes the need for a player to determine which set bonus they need, they don't do progression raiding on their own, so there would be someone on the team to show them the ropes.

 

GC does absolutely nothing to help newcomers get into progression raiding. 5.0 makes it more restrictive for new players compared to 4.0.

[Quraswren]

The point that was being made is the "world isn't ending" and the "majority of players" aren't quitting the game. A few vocal members of the community are, but that happens with every major update and expansion. As always, it's business as usual and SWTOR will continue to live on.

 

The point being made was you somehow thought the forums were not a good gauge of dislike for hte system because not everyone can post and you were shown the ones posting are the same ones dealing with it because they are subs. All others can't touch it. Your theory was slapped down rather easily.

 

The idea that you think this is an even playing field is also a joke. New and returning players are faced wtih a similar wall to gear just like they were in 4.0 but this time instead of someone being able to help them, they are left to a massive grind that can take upwards of a 180 straight days of getting 4+ thousand CXP a day, never missing a day jsut to get a small "chance" at gear and if we base tier 1 random drops and tier 3. They are less likly to get gear now than they were in 4.0

 

This did not in any way even the playing field for all games and of course swtor will live on. SW is a good IP but like SWG, gamers will eventually only take so much when it comes to terrible design and development. Just like in SWG.

 

For someone thats been around as long as you have I'm shocked you are this delusional to the reality of the situation.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Quraswren

[Andryah]

For someone thats been around as long as you have I'm shocked you are this delusional to the reality of the situation.

 

Why not just agree to disagree, rather then resorting to personal attacks?

 

You each have a different viewpoint, and will never agree. Accept it and move on.

 

You are each entitled to your own opinions, and to express them. Calling him delusional because you disagree with him is not necessary.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Andryah

[Jamtas]

While it removes the need for a player to determine which set bonus they need, they don't do progression raiding on their own, so there would be someone on the team to show them the ropes.

 

GC does absolutely nothing to help newcomers get into progression raiding. 5.0 makes it more restrictive for new players compared to 4.0.

 

Here is where your argument is lost in this debate. Aowin has already stated that prog raiding on the game is dead and the devs have moved on. Arguing for making things better for prog raiding will fall on deaf ears.

There is a camp for those that have hung on in hope that this game will introduce new operations and that part of MMO and then there is the camp that is happy the devs have thrown that aside and don't want them to waste any more time on those things.

[Quraswren]

Why not just agree to disagree, rather then resorting to personal attacks?

 

Agree to disagree goes nowhere. You don't enter into a debate to agree to disagree. At some point you have to call it like you see it. You cannot see this RNG, massive grind as some equalization of the playing field unless you are delusional. Just the simple math of it should show anyone that if you apply it to any new or returning gamer with what they are faced with.

 

You each have a different viewpoint, and will never agree. Accept it and move on.

 

As long as the debate moves on. I'll debate and this entire forum encourages that.

 

You are each entitled to your own opinions, and to express them. Calling him delusional because you disagree with him is not necessary.

 

Delusional is a very apt word to use in this situation given the debate and our different sides.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Quraswren

[curulz]

Here is where your argument is lost in this debate. Aowin has already stated that prog raiding on the game is dead and the devs have moved on. Arguing for making things better for prog raiding will fall on deaf ears.

 

Exactly my point. Aowin was saying how raiding is passe, then he says how GC will help encourage new comers to raid. Its like he's arguing with himself.

[RiVaN_]

#RemoveRNG

[DarthWoad]

Why not just agree to disagree, rather then resorting to personal attacks?

 

You each have a different viewpoint, and will never agree. Accept it and move on.

 

You are each entitled to your own opinions, and to express them. Calling him delusional because you disagree with him is not necessary.

 

Anyone that thinks otherwise is delusional IMO.

I'll just leave this here for you Andryah.

 

But on a serious note, we can agree to disagree. It's just that some are insistent on making their opinion more important over others. We see here in this thread most of the arguments are against the RNG and are aganist the OP but we can all still be adult in our discussions:)

Edited December 8, 2016 by DarthWoad

[IanArgent]

We'll simply have to agree to disagree. I've been playing MMOs ranging from sandbox to theme park for over a decade and gear progression has always been a crucial element in all of them, including SWTOR. I don't think you fully understand what exactly you would lose if such a system were to be entirely stripped from the game. It would make the experience much more superficial and meaningless.

 

I am not using absolutes here. I recognize there are other means of providing achievements. That being said, gear is definitely an important one. Either way, that kind of rapid change in an MMORPG, from my experience, would be naive and ultimately detrimental to the game. Take away incentives for people to want to gear and progress and you'll find there's barely anyone left playing the game.

 

My introduction to MMOs was in a sandbox game with essentially no gear progression. Rewards for play were cash and crafting materials (and the game had a multi-layered crafting economy where you could quite rewardingly only play in the crafting/merchandising minigame; except when you had to compete with people who subsidized their stores with the profits of adventuring). Though, there weren't any stats to speak of either, the game was all about player personal skill.

[Aowin]

This is the part that you dont get.

When I leveled my chars through storylines I ended up on rishi hitting lvl 65 with alot of data crystals and from the revan chapter 1 additional 300 crystals. Enough for a full set of 208 gear. As a subscriber.

For pvp player its similar. They ran warzones, got warzone commendations and bought their gear once they aquired enough.

THATS simple and for F2P players it was similar because they could buy purple gear easily like in other MMOs and run flashpoints/operations for gear.

 

Now only subscribers get gear, if they are lucky. I dont know how players get gear through pvp. So the only guaranteed method to get gear is through crew skills and thats very expensive right now because you need a buttload of luck to get the right schematics. No gear from H2s, FPs, OPs or uprisings.

 

How you can mistake that for a better system is beyond me.

 

 

Except that only the lucky ones that grind things get gear.

 

 

So what? Doesnt change that you get nearly everything wrong about 4.0 and 5.0 gearing.

 

 

Expertise and all the other stats are gear related. You can only gear up if you have a consistant gearing system. No gear, no amount of skill is going to make you win against an opponent with more luck with the gearing system.

 

I still doubt that you are a beta player considering you have been demonstrably wrong the whole timeabout nearly everything. Its likely that you dont care if you are wrong. At this point you are only a troll. Bye.

 

You seem to forget we are playing an MMO. You don't need to find the schematics, yourself. Other players are getting them. No, the prices aren't expensive. With players flooding the market with 230 gear, everything is dropping and quite affordable for most players.

 

"Wrong" is a matter of personal opinion. You may believe you are "right," but all you are providing is your own opinion of how you feel. The moment you conflate your opinion with what is actual fact is the moment you can no longer discern between the two and maintain a credible argument. I understand you don't like Galactic Command and you think it's the worst thing ever. Guess what? It's not going anywhere.

 

The minute all you could do is resort to personal attacks and trying to attack my credibility is the moment your weak argument fell apart at the seams. I'm all fine with folks having different points of view, but you aren't even objective and you can't even see that. Doesn't matter though, as you are part of this system as much as the rest of us and that's not changing.

 

Or, you could just stop playing a game you don't enjoy? That's what I would do.

[Aowin]

While it removes the need for a player to determine which set bonus they need, they don't do progression raiding on their own, so there would be someone on the team to show them the ropes.

 

GC does absolutely nothing to help newcomers get into progression raiding. 5.0 makes it more restrictive for new players compared to 4.0.

 

Not at all. Prior to 5.0 newcomers could never get top tier gear and the likelihood they'd ever get into a raid group was virtually zero. With 5.0, getting top tier gear is obtainable and newcomers no longer have to rely on raid groups. There will be plenty of people learning the ropes and going through the content with other newcomers. It's not as if there are many raid guilds left, according to raiders.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

You seem to forget we are playing an MMO. You don't need to find the schematics, yourself. Other players are getting them. No, the prices aren't expensive. With players flooding the market with 230 gear, everything is dropping and quite affordable for most players.

 

let's start with the point of: affordable price for you, affordable price for me, affordable price for the F2P next door is all SUBJECTIVE and DIFFERENT. if you have 100mil+ credits and one or 2 characters sure no big deal, if u have 40 alts and 10 mil across them, then yes 7 mil for a 234 hilt is A LOT.

 

"Wrong" is a matter of personal opinion. You may believe you are "right," but all you are providing is your own opinion of how you feel. The moment you conflate your opinion with what is actual fact is the moment you can no longer discern between the two and maintain a credible argument. I understand you don't like Galactic Command and you think it's the worst thing ever. Guess what? It's not going anywhere.

 

it doesn't even need to go anywhere, what needs to go, or at least GET FIXED is the damn RNG component of the crates.

 

The minute all you could do is resort to personal attacks and trying to attack my credibility is the moment your weak argument fell apart at the seams. I'm all fine with folks having different points of view, but you aren't even objective and you can't even see that. Doesn't matter though, as you are part of this system as much as the rest of us and that's not changing.

 

the minute you continuously talk in a circle is also where you kinda fall a bit flat, because u just refuse to accept that maybe there are some things about this system that JUST DON'T WORK. now i'm not gonna go back and re-read all almost 60 pages, but seriously. We are all right in one way or another. The way this is working RIGHT NOW sucks, it needs to be somehow changed/fixed/adapted to better complete its' function.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Not at all. Prior to 5.0 newcomers could never get top tier gear and the likelihood they'd ever get into a raid group was virtually zero. With 5.0, getting top tier gear is obtainable and newcomers no longer have to rely on raid groups. There will be plenty of people learning the ropes and going through the content with other newcomers. It's not as if there are many raid guilds left, according to raiders.

now that is a lie. i've personally put together groups to carry new lvl 65s through priority HM OPS to get them their 224 gear at least once a month. in fact it took me 2-3 months to get geared, after that all i did was help other people get their gear. some of them were alts, some of them were new guildies, some of them - random person from fleet. Multiple raiding guilds would organize sale runs, some people would form constant pugs to help others, so the statement that in 4.0 new toons could easily get geared is a bare faced LIE

 

P.S.: as for people doing content together with newbies in 5.0 - yeah that is unlikely, there is no incentive. mostly people will do what brings them most CXP - currently that's PvP.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Hichitsuki-hime

[Jadescythe]

Not at all. Prior to 5.0 newcomers could never get top tier gear and the likelihood they'd ever get into a raid group was virtually zero. With 5.0, getting top tier gear is obtainable and newcomers no longer have to rely on raid groups. There will be plenty of people learning the ropes and going through the content with other newcomers. It's not as if there are many raid guilds left, according to raiders.

 

None of this makes sense. They definitely could get top tier gear in 5.0. They could easily get into raid groups. Raid groups would literally run you through EV and KP HM to get a full set of 220s if they needed a new member. You could be decked out the same day you hit max level. Now they can grind out command levels for a few months PER CHARACTER to even have a chance at getting the best gear. And with Operations being one of the slower ways of accumulating CXP, I don't think there will be people lining up to run them whether they are a new player or not.