RNG is perfect for SWTOR and I'll explain why.

[Quraswren]

how about this one?

 

is this not an assumption on your part?

 

You are quick to point out assumptions that others make, and continue to state your assumptions as if they are fact. This is why I cannot take you seriously.

 

Oh he's quite full of assumptions.

 

So much this. They called story "the 4th pillar". Not "the focus of the game".

 

To think this was not intended to be a true MMO is either ignorance or trolling. Period.

 

I've posted it before but I'll do it again just because it needs to be it seems.

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/bioware-gdc-panel-star-wars-the-old-republic/

 

BW should have learned AND REMEMBERED that story alone does not hold gamers. They need end game content and they need NEW end game content once the other is old. You can read the article and see that at one point bw was getting it through their thick heads. Story alone isn't the key. There has to be end game content and that time what end game content was there? OPS and FP.

 

Sure add in other end game options but think for a min removing FP and OPS is a good thing.

 

Yes, swtor has story but it cannot and will not be what carries this game to any real success. It's great to have but even more limted than FP or OPS due to its limited use given the very limited endings. They should have learned that you cannot rn things like they did at lunch and this expansion is just a smaller and yet similar version of launch.

 

A lot of story. Little new end game content but this time bw expects you to just forget how old the other content is as well as continue to repeat that amazing old content AGAIN. As if we haven't already been doing it for a while now.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Quraswren

[Kirtastropohe]

It's hard to see how RNG is perfect for the viability of the game. There are actually a lot of things about 5.0 that I like, but forcing gearing to be a tortuous grind through levels to get crates that you have absolutely no say over what comes out of them is just not smart, and as I've said in other threads, I realize the devs aren't dumb. I guess their true motivations or objectives can't be explained to us, or they are just incapable of delivering what people want and they're doing all they can to milk things until the bottom drops out.

 

RNG kills the game for casuals. We have someone in my guild who's CXP level 62 after 1 week. We also have a casual player who could only play a little bit and only got 3 CXP levels after 1 week. That means it will take 21 weeks for that casual to get to the level of the person who ground their butt off leveling (and I realize it will get even worse as the amount of CXP needed to get a level increases, but I was just keeping it general). And this is just about getting crates. Once you try to open them, you're totally at the mercy of a system that most likely is going to give you loads and loads of crap stuff that, even discarding into more CXP points, isn't worth the time you put into it. How's this seem like a good system?

 

So what's the dev objective? Forget about casuals and try to drive people to more subs? That's not working out. Sounds like many people are dropping subs and my own experience with people in my guild show that no one is happy with the situation. So, if subs are going to be down, where's the money coming from? I guess the Cartel Market has always been strong since its inception, but again, losing subs and driving casuals away means fewer

people playing, which has to translate into fewer cartel market sales. From that perspective, RNG seems like a losing strategy.

[Zasszz]

From another topic:

-From the interview with Ben Irving and Charles Boyd

 

But is it really?

 

Let's take a walk down a memory lane, shall we?

 

Those of you guys who were around at the game's launch will remember how gearing worked at some point in normal operations and pvp.

 

To those who weren't: normal mode operations loot was auto-assigned to a random person based on their class. That often lead to the cases where someone received a columi gear token for the x time, while someone of the same class in the raid never got one. i.g. RNG at work.

 

In pvp, around 1.0 time we had 3 tiers of gear. centurion, which were upgraded by champion, which then was upgraded by battlemaster. You found battlemaster gear tokens (at random, and not guaranteed) in the loot bags. Which meant someone could keep on getting battlemaster bracers ad naseum, and, like one of my friends, never completed their battlemaster set (until they changed the system).

 

So what did Bioware do then?

Battlemaster Gear Tokens have been converted into Battlemaster Commendations, which can be used to purchase any Battlemaster gear. This allows players to purchase any piece of gear instead of requiring them to purchase the piece indicated by the token.

Battlemaster Bags now contain Battlemaster Commendations instead of Battlemaster Gear Tokens. They still also contain Champion Commendations.

-From Game Update 1.1 – Rise of the Rakghouls.

 

They scrapped the RNG system from PVP in 1.1!

 

And as for random autoassignment of loot in OPS?

Good news! We announced at the Guild Summit that we're removing this "pre-destined loot" system from Story difficulty in Game Update 1.2.

-by DavidBass

 

They scrapped the RNG from ops in 1.2!

 

In that light, how is reintroducing the the system they scrapped to make people happier, and in much more severe form, can be considered "learning from mistakes"?

History seems to repeat itself.

[Alloou]

-snip-

 

He claims that story people finished the story and mass left the game. If this was the case, how come BW called a guild summit and spent a good amount of time talking to the guild leaders about upcoming OPs, different difficulty levels, PTS with guilds beta testing the new modes etc?

 

I guess to go and inform all the story players to come back?

 

-Removed -

Edited December 7, 2016 by Alloou
Removed a part which is not public knowledge

[Quraswren]

He claims that story people finished the story and mass left the game. If this was the case, how come BW called a guild summit and spent a good amount of time talking to the guild leaders about upcoming OPs, different difficulty levels, PTS with guilds beta testing the new modes etc?

 

I guess to go and inform all the story players to come back?

 

-Removed -

 

The did finish the story and left the game but not because of finished story. It was clearly because end game was so lacking and what was end game at the time? FP and OPS.

 

At the time yes, those guild summits were about what is coming and trying to stave off gamers leaving. It was a move on bws part to limit what was happening because gamers were indeed leaving in mass because of the very limited end game content. We were some of the first raiders back on Kaas City and were first kills on EV and our guild leader was part of that summit. It was indeed about getting word out that things were coming in hopes to keep gamers here. To tell their gamers directly that more than story was coming.

 

At launch as the article says, bw thought to their detriment, a ton of class story would hold people. That simply doesn't work. They did it again but this time with a terrible and massive long grind and even worse a RNG gearing system just so gamers can do really old content as if that 2-5 year old content was going to keep gamers any better than limited end game content like launch.

 

There really is something rotten going on over there at bw. Management? Development? Designer? All the above?

Edited December 7, 2016 by Quraswren

[Andryah]

how about this one?

 

 

 

is this not an assumption on your part?

 

You are quick to point out assumptions that others make, and continue to state your assumptions as if they are fact. This is why I cannot take you seriously.

 

His assumption has been pretty well vetted and verified by players as ONE reason (not the only reason). So it's not actually assumption as to why some of the players left... because there were a lot of non-MMO Star Wars loving KOTOR fans who were attracted to this game.

 

That said... he is mistaken in pressing the point that this was the ONLY reason people left. It's not. There were also MMO veterans looking to hop on the new train in the train station, only to be disappointed that once they ground through to cap (because veteran MMO players for the most part expect an MMO to start at level cap, not level 1) there was little actual group end game content to play at launch.

 

So it boils down to three main demographics that abandoned the game early on:

1) KOTOR fans who figured they "beat the game" as soon as they hit level cap and tossed it in their stack of used games.

2) Veteran MMO players who raced to level cap and hit a brick wall of and end game content desert.

3) Players who thought they might like a new game, or just wanted to try it, played it, and decided it was not for them.

 

The exact percentage mix between 1, 2, 3 is not known or important really.....and is simply a convenient circular discussion between people talking past each rather then actually talking and discussing together.

 

And.. as usual.... everyone is off-topic and going after each other using old rehashed arguments.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Andryah

[KristianBurke]

The did finish the story and left the game but not because of finished story. It was clearly because end game was so lacking and what was end game at the time? FP and OPS.

 

At the time yes, those guild summits were about what is coming and trying to stave off gamers leaving. It was a move on bws part to limit what was happening because gamers were indeed leaving in mass because of the very limited end game content. We were some of the first raiders back on Kaas City and were first kills on EV and our guild leader was part of that summit. It was indeed about getting word out that things were coming in hopes to keep gamers here. To tell their gamers directly that more than story was coming.

 

At launch as the article says, bw thought to their detriment, a ton of class story would hold people. That simply doesn't work. There did it again but this time with a terrible and massive long grind and even worse a RNG gearing system just so gamers can do really old content as if that 2-5 year old content was going to keep gamers any better than limited end game content like launch.

 

There really is something rotten going on over there at bw. Management? Development? Designer? All the above?

 

I would offer that the composition of the player base at launch likely does not match the current composition. This game launched as a sub-only model and brought in a lot of players with experience in WoW that were expecting a similar amount of end-game content at launch that WoW already had after being out for seven years. I'm sure a lot of people did leave for lack of end-game content. And since at that time raiders were a significant segment of the player base it made sense that they tried to make adjustments for them. I personally left just because the sub-only model (on top of having to buy the game itself) didn't appeal to me. Paying $15/month made me feel like I needed to prefer SWTOR to other games. I play much more than MMOs, so after I finished one class story I left to play other games. Subbed again some months later to do another class story, left again.

 

This game has evolved greatly since then. The player base has changed. The same steps taken to retain players then would not be the same steps taken to retain them now. The F2P/Preferred model has attracted many players that are more interested in the story than operations. I myself dabble in the Preferred status just to play through class stories, then resub when I want to tackle stuff like Flashpoints and higher gear progression. The GC system is now one more perk to get people to sub.

 

Of course progression raiders still exist, but they are far outweighed by others. Yes this update sucks for raiders, but it does benefit the rest. This update is an attempt to entice a portion of the F2P/Preferred crowd to sub, even intermittently. It is not specifically aimed at retaining raiders.

 

Think about it from a business perspective:

Option 1 - make new operations. This has a very low chance of attracting new players, but would likely retain current raid players. BW spends money making new content and the subbed player base is largely the same

Option 2 - add new value to current content. This could alienate a portion of the raid community. This could also cause a slice of the unsubbed player base to subscribe.

 

Option 1 is "safer" in a way, but key to Option 2 succeeding come down to numbers. If half of the raiders leave, but maybe 5% of the remaining player base opens subscriptions, which number is bigger? BW knows, and they've made their decision. Sorry that it doesn't benefit you. But everyone please stop acting like a hugely successive company doesn't know business.

[Alloou]

-snip-

 

See, your sentence and his sentence are not the same. SWTOR failed for many reasons, one of them being story, other being lack of OPs, laggy Ilum world pvp, bad game engine etc.

 

Discussing about SWTOR is nice and dandy, but when people start pulling facts out of their behinds , they get called for it.

SWTOR failed for many reasons and for sure it was not build to serve story with some MMO elements.

 

SWTOR was built as an MMO, tried to cater to all audiences and failed for many reasons. Nothing more nothing else.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Alloou

[Quraswren]

I would offer that the composition of the player base at launch likely does not match the current composition.

 

Given there isn't a way to know. I see little discussion. We know why gamers left swtor at launch as bw gives us that. We know they seem to be making similar mistakes as well as adding a massive grind with even worse RNG gearing added to it along with little to nothing NEW, so the outcome could be similar no matter the player base as they are all gamers and swtor hasn't been a really strong game for a while now.

 

This game has evolved greatly since then.

It has evolved but for the better I can't really say yes too over all. It evolved to save itself from being a complete disaster so I'll give you that.

The GC system is now one more perk to get people to sub.

Only if the massive grind associated with it and the extremely terrible RNG gearing is acceptable to gamers.

If I was to make a guess at that. Thats not a good thing for player retention. The hill is too big, the grind too long, the rewards invisible for the effort put in if you get them at all. I don't call that a perk given what we just had.

 

Think about it from a business perspective:

Option 1 - make new operations. This has a very low chance of attracting new players, but would likely retain current raid players. BW spends money making new content and the subbed player base is largely the same

Option 2 - add new value to current content. This could alienate a portion of the raid community. This could also cause a slice of the unsubbed player base to subscribe.

 

Option 1 is "safer" in a way, but key to Option 2 succeeding come down to numbers. If half of the raiders leave, but maybe 5% of the remaining player base opens subscriptions, which number is bigger? BW knows, and they've made their decision. Sorry that it doesn't benefit you. But everyone please stop acting like a hugely successive company doesn't know business.

 

Option 1 should not be just make new operations. It should be make NEW GROUP CONTENT. Sure operations is an option and so is FP and so in uprisings or anything new players can do. That should be option 1.

 

Option 2 will never work out in the long run. It is historically proven that gamers dislike running old content over and over for long lengths of time. Trying to add value to old content is a fools errand as it will burn out just that much faster given it's already completed content. I think the DVL is good proof of that.

 

There has to be a better option that what 2 you presented and there is. As a business in the MMO market. You have to make new content for end game. It can be some solo content but it also has to be group content. You can add some value to old content but it cannot be the bulk of what you call an expansion.

 

This hugely successful company turned what is probably the most powerful IP into a F2P game faster than any other game in history (except one that I can think of). Alienating millions of gamers though bad decisions, poor planning and a reliance on metric readings they don't seem to really grasp as they have been proven wrong on such things as story consumption times. That hugely successful company doesn't get some pass on screwing up because of past merits and they should be taken to task when we see the same issues coming back around and extremely screwed up design and development that 5.0 brought and end game.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Quraswren

[Frenesi]

-snip-

 

But did it really change? Despite all the time passed and **** they got, there are still people from as far as beta around. I've been here since F2P start, and many names around here I recognize from as far back as 3.0. Think about it. 2- 5 versions of game, with last few of them progressively ******** on veterans, yet those people are still here. THAT'S what playerbase is.

 

Story-mode casuals and wandering SW fans? They don't last. They are migrating crowd, and 4.0 illustrated it perfectly. They sub in, run their story content, sub out and leave. Not even monthly content keeps them around - they bypass it by just dropping out and waiting to get all chapters when they are done. No offense to those people, but they are unable to form any sort of playerbase.

 

And if you ask "how do I know that" - I don't. Bioware does. That's why monthly chapters are no more.

[KristianBurke]

snip

 

You really can't agree that the player base has changed from when the game launched as a sub-only model to where it stands today years into a F2P model? That's not speculation. It has necessarily changed just due to the F2P itself. Speculation would be making assumptions on exactly how it has changed. I'm not using terms like "better" or "worse" because that's up to individual opinion. I'm talking about who is playing, how often, and what they're doing.

 

Stop having such a narrow-minded view on what makes a game "work". A game "succeeds" by making money, simple. Any conjecture on what would make the most money in this game is just that--conjecture. You obviously have different opinions than BW, the difference is BW has all the data behind the player base that you don't have. Those mistakes everyone keeps bringing up around launch--that's when they too were speculating about what the game needed. I'm definitely not saying they are perfect or anything but I think they have much better grasp today about how to make money with this game.

 

**fixed typo

Edited December 7, 2016 by KristianBurke

[Edyn]

My sub was to lapse yesterday, but I decided to give the game one more month to see if anything on the items I care about (vanilla Companions returning, story back to EvR, etc.) and to do co-op content (Uprisings,FPs, Heroics) for some quality time with the husb.

 

I just wanted to throw in my two cents here after experiencing the RNG for the first time yesterday.

 

Until yesterday, I didn't really care about the crate RNG issue, as I thought it wouldn't affect me - I really don't care about gear stat upgrades all that much... I mean, it's not like they released a new, interesting, and more difficult Flashpoint that I want to run that would require gear upgrades; however, I didn't think about the other things I used to play for and buy with Data Crystals, such as Companion Gifts.

 

Even in 4.0, I've focused on getting my companions ranked up, so yesterday, the husb and I set out to do some of the new Uprisings so that I can hopefully score some Weapons or Military Gear out of Command Crates. Once we were through with the Uprisings (45mins to an hour's worth of time through instances that weren't all that interesting) the RNG on the crates resulted in exactly zero Companion Gifts for either of us, let alone the specific gifts I was looking for. Ultimately, neither one of us got a single item of use. In 4.0, in doing content in the same amount of time, I would not only have earned enough Data Crystals to go buy a gift or two, but we also had a chance of gifts dropping off of mobs. In these Uprisings, I can't remember really any loot dropping at all.

 

I'm no expert on how to develop a game, but as a veteran player, all I can tell you is that yesterday was some of the most unrewarding game play I've experienced in a history of 17 years in MMOs - the only good thing about it was that I was able to play with the husb.

[Aowin]

Having finally caught up, I fully agree with you and appreciate you sharing your thoughts through this thread. SWTOR has had to evolve, and play to its strengths, namely characterisation and storytelling within the context of the Star Wars universe.

 

Especially with regards to an older, out dated concepts being applied to any game labelled as an MMO the term MMO has become short hand for a host of expectations that many have come to believe 'must' be included - 'tyranny of the genre' is alive and well.

 

And yet, we must be prepared to accept reality. What works. What doesn't work. En masse. Even if it means losing an element of play that we might have enjoyed in the past (raiding for example) or a homogenizing of elements that might have traditionally been clearly split (PvE/PvP, especially with regards to gearing).

 

So yes, going aaaaall the way back to the OP, I do agree that a system that makes BIS gear accessible to all is a clever step in the right direction. The execution could use some refinement but the intent is sound.

 

Folks may be interested in reading up on Richard Bartle's work. He wrote a lovely piece on 'The Decline of MMOs'.

 

http://mud.co.uk/richard/The%20Decline%20of%20MMOs.pdf

 

Great post. It's really sad because the idea of an "MMO" used to be so many things. MMORPGs ten years ago were so diverse and different. Star Wars Galaxies, to this day, was my favorite MMORPG of all time. In today's climate, that kind of game would never be made.

 

Why? It was a subscription-only MMO, which is really a dying model. The learning curve was too steep and there really was no tutorial. The game was not friendly to newcomers at all. The game was entirely dependent on the community and players making it work with really no solo option. It was the kind of experience that took years to learn and possibly more to master. Above all else it was a grind and many who play "MMOs" today simply do not have the patience anymore.

 

Unfortunately, many who have grown up during this WoW-era of MMOs believe there is only one kind of MMO experience. They believe that "endgame" means raiding, instanced PvP, group dungeons, and nothing else. They believe that if this kind of content is not continuously pushed out and made readily available every single year that the MMO has somehow "failed." This very narrow-minded and limited understanding of the genre is destructive, dangerous, and will likely be the end of MMOs as we know it.

 

Here was a great video that really dissected what MMOs have become, and it all goes back to what Blizzard has done to this genre:

[KristianBurke]

But did it really change? Despite all the time passed and **** they got, there are still people from as far as beta around. I've been here since F2P start, and many names around here I recognize from as far back as 3.0. Think about it. 2- 5 versions of game, with last few of them progressively ******** on veterans, yet those people are still here. THAT'S what playerbase is.

Yes, it necessarily changed when it became possible to play F2P/Preferred. You don't see them because they can't post here. And a few consistent names in the forums in no way says that the demographics of the game didn't change.

 

Story-mode casuals and wandering SW fans? They don't last. They are migrating crowd, and 4.0 illustrated it perfectly. They sub in, run their story content, sub out and leave. Not even monthly content keeps them around - they bypass it by just dropping out and waiting to get all chapters when they are done. No offense to those people, but they are unable to form any sort of playerbase.

 

And if you ask "how do I know that" - I don't. Bioware does. That's why monthly chapters are no more.

 

It's all about numbers, getting 12 "story-mode" casuals to sub for 1 month to try out new content is the same getting 1 person to sub for a year. The sub-in sub-out scenario you describe is not bad at all if you have enough people doing it. None of us here know what those numbers are, but there's nothing saying this game can't be sustainable purely by on-again off-again subscriptions and CM purchases. Maintaining a consistent set of players that you try to keep entertained indefinitely is not the only path to success.

[Frenesi]

Yes, it necessarily changed when it became possible to play F2P/Preferred. You don't see them because they can't post here. And a few consistent names in the forums in no way says that the demographics of the game didn't change.

 

 

 

It's all about numbers, getting 12 "story-mode" casuals to sub for 1 month to try out new content is the same getting 1 person to sub for a year. The sub-in sub-out scenario you describe is not bad at all if you have enough people doing it. None of us here know what those numbers are, but there's nothing saying this game can't be sustainable purely by on-again off-again subscriptions and CM purchases. Maintaining a consistent set of players that you try to keep entertained indefinitely is not the only path to success.

Well, we honestly don't know if they have enough people doing it. But apparently, Bioware decided it's not enough. Hence they are now twisting people's arms to get subbed constantly, parted ways with monthly releases, and started to mention "group content" again. It looks like story-players don't pull it.

[Alloou]

-snip-

 

On a side note, something that really made me depressed:

I saw people posting with ID >17 million. 17 million people tried this game in 5 years and so few actually stayed

[Aowin]

See, your sentence and his sentence are not the same. SWTOR failed for many reasons, one of them being story, other being lack of OPs, laggy Ilum world pvp, bad game engine etc.

 

Discussing about SWTOR is nice and dandy, but when people start pulling facts out of their behinds , they get called for it.

SWTOR failed for many reasons and for sure it was not build to serve story with some MMO elements.

 

SWTOR was built as an MMO, tried to cater to all audiences and failed for many reasons. Nothing more nothing else.

 

There's nothing to speculate about here. You can continue to make assumptions and fabricate ideas on what you believe SWTOR is. I'll explain it very simply:

 

There were two teams at the BioWare Austin studio during the development of game. There was BioWare, which was solely in charge of the story and nothing else. The other team was Mythic (known for DAoC and Warhammer), which was in charge of endgame content (warzones, Ilum world pvp, flashpoints and operations). BioWare, being that they never made an MMO before, was solely concerned about the story element of the game. The MMO components that were supplements were handled by Mythic which is now a defunct studio.

 

In case you want to know why operations likely are no longer developed other than the obvious reason they are not profitable, Gabe Amatangelo, the Lead Endgame Designer (who happened to be from Mythic and not BioWare) left BioWare Austin quite some time ago. In other words, what's largely left of BioWare Austin are exclusively the BioWare folks and not Mythic.

 

Regardless, this comes full circle and brings us back to the issue that some players, such as yourself, do not like the new direction this game has taken since KOTFE. Thus, anything and everything BioWare has done since, such as Galactic Command, must be a terrible idea and scrapped as a result.

[Jamtas]

There's nothing to speculate about here. You can continue to make assumptions and fabricate ideas on what you believe SWTOR is. I'll explain it very simply:

 

There were two teams at the BioWare Austin studio during the development of game. There was BioWare, which was solely in charge of the story and nothing else. The other team was Mythic (known for DAoC and Warhammer), which was in charge of endgame content (warzones, Ilum world pvp, flashpoints and operations). BioWare, being that they never made an MMO before, was solely concerned about the story element of the game. The MMO components that were supplements were handled by Mythic which is now a defunct studio.

 

In case you want to know why operations likely are no longer developed other than the obvious reason they are not profitable, Gabe Amatangelo, the Lead Endgame Designer (who happened to be from Mythic and not BioWare) left BioWare Austin quite some time ago. In other words, what's largely left of BioWare Austin are exclusively the BioWare folks and not Mythic.

 

Regardless, this comes full circle and brings us back to the issue that some players, such as yourself, do not like the new direction this game has taken since KOTFE. Thus, anything and everything BioWare has done since, such as Galactic Command, must be a terrible idea and scrapped as a result.

 

So, I think your take on the other viewpoint is valid. We do want it scrapped or drastically changed. There are folks who agree with you that think it is fine.

 

BW will pick which side they agree with and move on from there. Then the losing side of this debate can either speak with their wallets, or stick around.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Jamtas

[Tsillah]

Regardless, this comes full circle and brings us back to the issue that some players, such as yourself, do not like the new direction this game has taken since KOTFE. Thus, anything and everything BioWare has done since, such as Galactic Command, must be a terrible idea and scrapped as a result.

That is of course an unfair statement and you know that.

 

A lot of people, like myself, who are unsubbing because of GC also say they like the KotET story. So we don't hate everything just because it's the new direction. In fact aside from not balancing the SM ops equally and for me personally making most too simplistic and also by making EV and KP HM too easy I felt they shouldn't have been part of the priority ops. But beyond that I didn't hate the set up of 4.0

I didn't like the story though and the lack of new content.

 

So here it is:

4.0 crap story, pretty good set up, too little new content

5.0 great story, crap set up (GC), too little new content

 

Now there's my view and clearly I do not hate everything since KotFE came out. So stop making false accusations please.

 

Trust me I could've lived with a lot of crap, but GC completely sinks this game for me completely on its own merits, or rather lack thereof. That has nothing to with the rest of 4.0 or 5.0

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Replacing the incompetent devs is the only viable solution to save this game.

 

so much that. i'd even volunteer to read through all the new forum threads and compile list of questions people want answered on a daily or weekly basis........... not for free though mind u... cause need job >.<:D:D:D:D:D

[Alloou]

There's nothing to speculate about here. You can continue to make assumptions and fabricate ideas on what you believe SWTOR is.

And yet, you continue... people have given you links where BW has stated what was the problems with the game, their mistakes etc. And you keep on spouting more and more assumptions you fabricate. Give me 1 statement from BW saying we made SWTOR as a single player game with MMO elements...Till you do, you are just making things on the way and i won't take your word for it.

 

Regardless, this comes full circle and brings us back to the issue that some players, such as yourself, do not like the new direction this game has taken since KOTFE. Thus, anything and everything BioWare has done since, such as Galactic Command, must be a terrible idea and scrapped as a result.

 

Assume much again? I mentioned i don't have the time to do the same content yet again under the premise of Galactic Command, RNG is not for me and i will not do.

Everything else you pulled out of your ... behind ...yet again...

[Aowin]

So, I think your take on the other viewpoint is valid. We do want it scrapped or drastically changed. There are folks who agree with you that think it is fine.

 

BW will pick which side they agree with and move on from there. Then the losing side of this debate can either speak with their wallets, or stick around.

 

BioWare has already chosen. It's the reason we haven't had a new operation in two years... It's the reason BioWare has focused on story for two years... Now, BioWare is making strides to try and add some new group content, but never have they claimed they were going back to making operations and flashpoints again. I think it's quite likely those features will never be expanded upon in the future. Whatever group-oriented content BioWare does now will probably be new, just like Star Fortresses, the Eternal Championship, and now Uprisings.

 

Galactic Command is a new system that is having content built specifically to facilitate it. We know Master Chapters and Master Uprisings are on the way. I'm also expecting a new kind of 8-man group content that is not raiding and is likely much shorter with more replay value likely intended. This is, of course, assuming any 8-man content is coming at all. BioWare may just relegate those kind of groups to new world bosses and nothing else.

 

Either way, whatever is coming will be meant to blend seamlessly with the new Galactic Command system. I doubt a new raid is coming, but raiders can continue to hope after two years of no raids.

[Aowin]

That is of course an unfair statement and you know that.

 

A lot of people, like myself, who are unsubbing because of GC also say they like the KotET story. So we don't hate everything just because it's the new direction. In fact aside from not balancing the SM ops equally and for me personally making most too simplistic and also by making EV and KP HM too easy I felt they shouldn't have been part of the priority ops. But beyond that I didn't hate the set up of 4.0

I didn't like the story though and the lack of new content.

 

So here it is:

4.0 crap story, pretty good set up, too little new content

5.0 great story, crap set up (GC), too little new content

 

Now there's my view and clearly I do not hate everything since KotFE came out. So stop making false accusations please.

 

Trust me I could've lived with a lot of crap, but GC completely sinks this game for me completely on its own merits, or rather lack thereof. That has nothing to with the rest of 4.0 or 5.0

 

I don't believe I ever claimed you were the individual who hated everything about this new direction BioWare has taken. I also don't believe I ever directed my post at you. That being said, there are plenty of posters in this thread who would be more than happy to see everything since 4.0 scrapped and go back to that "traditional" model of new raids, new daily areas, and nothing else.

 

Galactic Command is a system where we can't go back, and I think many folks who have been holding out for a return to the past are finally realizing that reality is setting in.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Aowin

[Zasszz]

Great post. It's really sad because the idea of an "MMO" used to be so many things. MMORPGs ten years ago were so diverse and different. Star Wars Galaxies, to this day, was my favorite MMORPG of all time. In today's climate, that kind of game would never be made.

 

Why? It was a subscription-only MMO, which is really a dying model.

Look at eve online. Almost as old as wow, subscription, F2P and the option to buy playtime with ingame currency, hard learning curve, long time required to be good at it, passive skill development, no active level process, you fall -> buy new gear. Doesnt look like its going away soon. Its one of the few games left that forces players to learn how to play to be even decent at it.

 

The learning curve was too steep and there really was no tutorial. The game was not friendly to newcomers at all.

It wasnt kind to players new to MMOs. But thats normal EVERYWHERE. You start somewhere. The next one will be easier to learn because of experience. Why would anyone want an easy game without the educational value?!

 

Unfortunately, many who have grown up during this WoW-era of MMOs believe there is only one kind of MMO experience. They believe that "endgame" means raiding, instanced PvP, group dungeons, and nothing else. They believe that if this kind of content is not continuously pushed out and made readily available every single year that the MMO has somehow "failed." This very narrow-minded and limited understanding of the genre is destructive, dangerous, and will likely be the end of MMOs as we know it.

I agree with you there. But thats the mentality of the community that only thinks about raiding aka battlefield style, everything else is just a means to an end.

 

Here was a great video that really dissected what MMOs have become, and it all goes back to what Blizzard has done to this genre:

Good watch. Sadly mixing eve online's sandbox with a wow style gameplay wont work. As I said, the players of the latter are not tuned for choosing their own playstyle. They need someone to direct them towards something. Its like you have a democracy with free thinkers on one side and a theocracy on the other. They are fundamentally incompatible.

 

I wish I had a solution. But in the end, why would the devs all of the sudden listen to players about how to fix problems they willingly created?

[Jadescythe]

I don't believe I ever claimed you were the individual who hated everything about this new direction BioWare has taken. I also don't believe I ever directed my post at you. That being said, there are plenty of posters in this thread who would be more than happy to see everything since 4.0 scrapped and go back to that "traditional" model of new raids, new daily areas, and nothing else.

 

Galactic Command is a system where we can't go back, and I think many folks who have been holding out for a return to the past are finally realizing that reality is setting in.

 

I think most people are articulating their feelings very well. No one opposed to your view likes the design of galactic command where RNG decides your fate and you get to repeat the grind multiple times. Some are suggesting a rollback to the old system because they dislike the implementation of the new system, that's true. But that is neither realistic nor a permanent solution. Others want to make gear drops more frequent, predetermined, or some other solution to eliminate or mitigate RNG substantially.

 

In the long term, the devs will have to redesign this system to feel more rewarding to players rather than discouraging and they will also need to find a way to make playing multiple characters viable, understanding that the majority of their player base is only casually engaged. Expecting players to grind command levels on multiple characters when they may only play an average of an hour or two a day seems fairly ridiculous. They had come so far in making the game accessible to players who didn't play frequently only to dump it for a system that actively discourages anyone from playing if they don't have the time to put in, especially on multiple characters.

 

As to your comments about the "old system", it was never just raids and daily areas. RotHC and SoR both had story arcs to complete and, tbh, KotFE and KotET weren't so much better than those that I would agree they make up for the lack of daily areas and raids that were introduced. KotET was certainly a large step up from KotFE, but BW has a long way to go if they want these story chapters to keep players like myself subscribing.