So....about Vaylin....

[gamephil]

"deep breath"

........

 

Don't you think that the question of a different outcome of the story for Vaylin and others associated with It is too complicated? So many disagreements, controversies, as if we are talking about a real person, not the character of the game.

 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ac/55/be/ac55be9995071fec0bd830a511e8f2fd.jpg

 

Of course we all have our own opinions about it , but due to these disputes, the already very small chance that it could be something else.

 

It's like some kind of vicious circle.

 

 

#Arcann,Nathema&Vaylin

 

I don't think it's possible to change the outcome of the story as it stands. I don't think we could get a less terrible extension to her story without substantial player push back, unfortunately, so it isn't likely to happen,, much as I think there are more than the guess of "two hundred players that want this" that I've seen quoted multiple times. I think the best we can get is a non-story companion, that would hopefully be easy enough that it wouldn't detract much from other things people want. I think it's a reasonable compromise. Sadly, people that don't want anything more to do with her aren't even willing to allow for that, thinking that all we want is, well, I'm not sure what, to drool over her was a comment someone made. So you may be right.

 

Now, maybe the effort for even that small concession would be more than it appears to me as an outsider. Maybe it really can't be done without sacrificing too much. Wish I knew.

[gamephil]

I'm almost certain the mail was only there as a foreshadow to the romance that came out a few weeks back. I think they were trying to show Arcann had changed.

 

I have no doubt that was most of it, it just also felt like the writers using Arcann a second time to say, "This story is over". Much the same way they used him to say "She can't body hop" to shut that idea down if he's alive. We'll see, but that's how it seemed to me.

[Paulsutherland]

I have no doubt that was most of it, it just also felt like the writers using Arcann a second time to say, "This story is over". Much the same way they used him to say "She can't body hop" to shut that idea down if he's alive. We'll see, but that's how it seemed to me.

 

He could speculate all he wants sure, but how would he even know that?

[gamephil]

He could speculate all he wants sure, but how would he even know that?

 

That's what I've always thought. Valkorion might have reason to know, but he can't be trusted, while Arcann simply has no explained reason to know that. Plus, that in no way means she couldn't return to herself (or be moved by outside intervention, since she already was when Valkorion took her), even if it's correct.

[DefenderTwo]

That's what I've always thought. Valkorion might have reason to know, but he can't be trusted, while Arcann simply has no explained reason to know that. Plus, that in no way means she couldn't return to herself (or be moved by outside intervention, since she already was when Valkorion took her), even if it's correct.

 

He did sense Vaylin being absorbed by the Outlander, but like you I'm not sure how Arcann would know whether or not Vaylin could jump to a new host.

[gamephil]

He did sense Vaylin being absorbed by the Outlander, but like you I'm not sure how Arcann would know whether or not Vaylin could jump to a new host.

 

Plus, he wasn't sure if her spirit had been taken by Valkorion or if she was obliterated. Believing that he could know if she could body hop after that statement is just not plausible.

 

And the fact that he hoped his baby sister's spirit was obliterated is just iffy. I get it, he was hoping she was at peace rather than enslaved to their father again. The VA pulls that off. I just wish they had given him a better line.

Edited April 26, 2018 by gamephil

[DefenderTwo]

Plus, he wasn't sure if her spirit had been taken by Valkorion or if she was obliterated. Believing that he could know if she could body hop after that statement is just not plausible.

 

And the fact that he hoped his baby sister's spirit was obliterated is just iffy. I get it, he was hoping she was at peace rather than enslaved to their father again. The VA pulls that off. I just wish they had given him a better line.

 

Yeah, I got the meaning of what he was trying to say, but he could have worded that better.

[Paulsutherland]

Plus, he wasn't sure if her spirit had been taken by Valkorion or if she was obliterated. Believing that he could know if she could body hop after that statement is just not plausible.

 

And the fact that he hoped his baby sister's spirit was obliterated is just iffy. I get it, he was hoping she was at peace rather than enslaved to their father again. The VA pulls that off. I just wish they had given him a better line.

 

Should have been an option to Marr-Slap Arcann for that.

[DefenderTwo]

Should have been an option to Marr-Slap Arcann for that.

 

Does feel odd to wish a member of your family, someone who you betrayed was blasted into oblivion so you can live.

[Paulsutherland]

Does feel odd to wish a member of your family, someone who you betrayed was blasted into oblivion so you can live.

 

I think he cared, defiantly more than Senya anyway, he was just a victim of the script for that part.

 

That said, should Arcann or Senya ever decide he wants to make the ultimate sacrifice for Vaylin, I will be more than willing to let them make that decision ... or will forcibly make the decision for them should they have any doubts.

[gamephil]

I think he cared, defiantly more than Senya anyway, he was just a victim of the script for that part.

 

I honestly think she was supposed to care, too. They just blew several of her lines in much the same way as Arcann's. Even her, "We've won." bit sounded heartbroken, it was the line itself that was awful. But the real problem with her for me was the six chapter coma.

[Paulsutherland]

I honestly think she was supposed to care, too. They just blew several of her lines in much the same way as Arcann's. Even her, "We've won." bit sounded heartbroken, it was the line itself that was awful. But the real problem with her for me was the six chapter coma.

 

Yeah ... had she been active do you think she would have 'helped' us save Vaylin? or been used as a way to bargain with Vaylin?

[gamephil]

Yeah ... had she been active do you think she would have 'helped' us save Vaylin? or been used as a way to bargain with Vaylin?

 

I doubt it, I don't think Vaylin was ever meant to be anything but the "maniac" that we ultimately kill. There are just too many cues that seem to lean that way. Which, by itself, is a disturbing, overused story. That's why I never really got attached to her in KotFE, though there were moments that I really enjoyed. I didn't hate her particularly, either, and I hoped she would outgrow her archetype. Then they had Betrayed and Chapter 3 and and Chapter 6 and Chapter 7 and "No one dies without my permission" and "Thexan?" and I just couldn't believe that they would show us that and then force us to run her through like that, at least not without some choice to show some kind of regret that it had come to that. Boy, was I wrong.

 

But if they had just given Senya a moment where, in talking to her daughter, she says to her what she should have, if she had just said she was sorry for failing her but it's over, anything at all, her story and the whole story would be a bit better. Instead we get what we got, we get, "You're better than this" (no, how could she be?) and "She's broken" and "We've won". And an email where she says to the Commander what she should have said to her daughter: I don't blame you.

[Paulsutherland]

When on her own Vaylin was able to achieve her objectives better than any of the other characters in KOTET. Such as securing the fleet on Iokath or journeying to Nathema to eliminate her fault.

 

Senya is beyond saving in my opinion ... she can join the other 30 odd companions in the oblivion of the companion lists.

[gamephil]

When on her own Vaylin was able to achieve her objectives better than any of the other characters in KOTET. Such as securing the fleet on Iokath or journeying to Nathema to eliminate her fault.

 

 

It's the other half of the things that make her story so awful: They show her tortured not to garner sympathy but to justify having to kill her, and likewise they show her to be powerful only so in all of her interactions with us we get to overpower and dominate this otherwise all-powerful woman. It sets m teeth on edge. At least Arcann gets to impale the Outlander, possibly, has the starburst symbol during his fight, which we needed special help with. Her? Gold star character only and we just walk up and stab her. Who is, narratively, the dangerous one again?

 

Senya I'll always blame on the rush job and bad decisions, but since that defines a character, I can't blame you. I'd like to think they were trying for something more complex, that Senya was just hurting, too, and despaired, but the lines and responses we're allowed just don't bear that out. It's just the Senya in my head is very different than the one that woke up from the coma officially. It's what I've said before, though: You want to have a family driven by their abuser? Handle it with great care and sensitivity. If you can't do so, write a different story. Otherwise, you get a mess like this.

[Paulsutherland]

It's the other half of the things that make her story so awful: They show her tortured not to garner sympathy but to justify having to kill her, and likewise they show her to be powerful only so in all of her interactions with us we get to overpower and dominate this otherwise all-powerful woman. It sets m teeth on edge. At least Arcann gets to impale the Outlander, possibly, has the starburst symbol during his fight, which we needed special help with. Her? Gold star character only and we just walk up and stab her. Who is, narratively, the dangerous one again?

 

Senya I'll always blame on the rush job and bad decisions, but since that defines a character, I can't blame you. I'd like to think they were trying for something more complex, that Senya was just hurting, too, and despaired, but the lines and responses we're allowed just don't bear that out. It's just the Senya in my head is very different than the one that woke up from the coma officially. It's what I've said before, though: You want to have a family driven by their abuser? Handle it with great care and sensitivity. If you can't do so, write a different story. Otherwise, you get a mess like this.

 

Which could all have been ignored had our characters had the common sense gene and ignored everything Valkorion said.

[gamephil]

Which could all have been ignored had our characters had the common sense gene and ignored everything Valkorion said.

 

Oh, yes. I get the idea, the whole "you are forced to work with the villain" thing, but that just doesn't work here. Leaving the galaxy to Arcann's mercy is preferable to letting Valkorion eat it, and while Vaylin might have even less mercy than Arcann, she's just as mortal as he is. Valkorion isn't.

[Paulsutherland]

Oh, yes. I get the idea, the whole "you are forced to work with the villain" thing, but that just doesn't work here. Leaving the galaxy to Arcann's mercy is preferable to letting Valkorion eat it, and while Vaylin might have even less mercy than Arcann, she's just as mortal as he is. Valkorion isn't.

 

I'm not even sure that was Valkorion's plan in the end. I think he just wanted our bodies to continue his rule over Zakuul ... Was it ever explained why he couldn't or wouldn't kill Arcann Thexan or Vaylin himself?

[gamephil]

I'm not even sure that was Valkorion's plan in the end. I think he just wanted our bodies to continue his rule over Zakuul ... Was it ever explained why he couldn't or wouldn't kill Arcann Thexan or Vaylin himself?

 

There was some kind of vague thing during Chapter 9, but it made it sound like he couldn't come up with a long-term plan to save his life (clearly) and was making everything up as he went along. Not only should we not be forced to listen to him because of his abuser nonsense and because he's the most evil and destructive thing in the galaxy, but he's also kind of dim-witted.

[Paulsutherland]

There was some kind of vague thing during Chapter 9, but it made it sound like he couldn't come up with a long-term plan to save his life (clearly) and was making everything up as he went along. Not only should we not be forced to listen to him because of his abuser nonsense and because he's the most evil and destructive thing in the galaxy, but he's also kind of dim-witted.

 

Makes you wonder why he didn't jump into a clone, willing subject or someone else entirely as a back up plan until the Outlander and his children had been dealt with.

[fishpeople]

I honestly think she was supposed to care, too. They just blew several of her lines in much the same way as Arcann's. Even her, "We've won." bit sounded heartbroken, it was the line itself that was awful. But the real problem with her for me was the six chapter coma.

 

If she did, it wasn't portrayed very well. I got the impression she was satisfied with Arcann and just gave up on Vaylin.

[gamephil]

If she did, it wasn't portrayed very well. I got the impression she was satisfied with Arcann and just gave up on Vaylin.

 

No, it was not portrayed well. In fact, even though I was the one that said it, it was portrayed so badly that a lot of the time I don't believe it, either. But I try to view it as them still caring, despite the lack of evidence, because it makes the thing marginally more tolerable. The story is bad enough as it is.

 

On the other hand, I've also said in the past that I don't want to give the devs any slack on this by assuming they intended something better, so I suppose I shouldn't do that with Senya, either.

 

Ultimately, though, they can portray their characters however they want. The fans certainly seem to eat it up and view them as sympathetic and regularly make excuses for them, so it's working. I wish it wasn't. They might get better.

[fishpeople]

No, it was not portrayed well. In fact, even though I was the one that said it, it was portrayed so badly that a lot of the time I don't believe it, either. But I try to view it as them still caring, despite the lack of evidence, because it makes the thing marginally more tolerable. The story is bad enough as it is.

 

On the other hand, I've also said in the past that I don't want to give the devs any slack on this by assuming they intended something better, so I suppose I shouldn't do that with Senya, either.

 

Ultimately, though, they can portray their characters however they want. The fans certainly seem to eat it up and view them as sympathetic and regularly make excuses for them, so it's working. I wish it wasn't. They might get better.

 

Not to pour salt on the wound but there is some cut lines which gave me the impression Vaylin was going to surrender to the Outlander if she would keep her safe from Valkorion. So, maybe ther was a 'better' ending with Vaylin in mind?

 

If the player reaction to the traitor arc is anything to go by, I don't think the players are so willing to 'eat up' whatever Bioware puts in front of them anymore.

[gamephil]

Not to pour salt on the wound but there is some cut lines which gave me the impression Vaylin was going to surrender to the Outlander if she would keep her safe from Valkorion. So, maybe ther was a 'better' ending with Vaylin in mind?

 

If the player reaction to the traitor arc is anything to go by, I don't think the players are so willing to 'eat up' whatever Bioware puts in front of them anymore.

 

The cut scene is just so much better. I didn't hear anything about her accepting, which would be better still, but even if she didn't, we at least were allowed to try. Several even smaller changes would have helped: just have Senya say, "Please, this has to stop" would make it sound to me like she was giving one more chance rather than writing off her hurting daughter. One word. Oh, well.

 

Yeah, I don't think the fans are as willing to give them kudos as much any more, and as long as they don't burn everything down, that might be a good thing, an impetus to improve. I meant more the whole "mentally ill abuse survivor must die and it's the only mercy" thing that people really seem to like in general, not just here. I'm not a fan.

[fishpeople]

The cut scene is just so much better. I didn't hear anything about her accepting, which would be better still, but even if she didn't, we at least were allowed to try. Several even smaller changes would have helped: just have Senya say, "Please, this has to stop" would make it sound to me like she was giving one more chance rather than writing off her hurting daughter. One word. Oh, well.

 

Yeah, I don't think the fans are as willing to give them kudos as much any more, and as long as they don't burn everything down, that might be a good thing, an impetus to improve. I meant more the whole "mentally ill abuse survivor must die and it's the only mercy" thing that people really seem to like in general, not just here. I'm not a fan.

 

You're right, I just watched it again, she asks the Outlander "Do you really think Valkorion will let me live?" so weakened she feared Valkorion more than the Outlander. Shame really, turning Vaylin to our side, whether through the light side or dark would have been a real victory over Valkorion.

 

I think the general dislike for the way kotfe and kotet was the thing people hated the most. Vaylin is more a victim of a rushed plot than anything else. There are plenty of people out there who would support Vaylin as a companion. With the rush of the traitor arc, the attention of Anthem and how Star Wars is in general I really wouldn't like to say how SWTOR will go from here on.