So....about Vaylin....

[gamephil]

Heh, that's how I've been looking at it, but with a DS perspective. "He's telling you to do something, you know he's evil, stop listening to him!"

 

I meant to also write something along the lines of, "Or they refuse to do what Valkorion says because even evil has standards". I have no idea how that got left out, I feel bad.

 

I think the only lines after KOTET that reference Vaylin are ...

 

- Risha telling the smuggler about her planet being bombed.

- Pirate guy saying something about a crazy Empress tearing up the galaxy.

- Hexid says something about Kria having an encounter with Vaylin. (Granted this is whenever you talk to Hexid as a JK.)

- Lana says something on Iokath.

 

You left out my personal favorite, Theron: "Every world that Vaylin terrorized is getting help". Something like that.

 

Wouldn't bother me, I mean, she did do that, it just still feels like "Please ignore the guy we don't want you to view as a villain any longer".

Edited March 29, 2018 by gamephil

[Paulsutherland]

Well, several of us have already said that Vaylin's return should not be at the expense of returning companions.

 

Well ... to be fair ... returns? sure ... but If I'm required to sacrifice certain individuals to get Vaylin back ... I'll be smashing their kill options ASAP!

 

You left out my personal favorite, Theron: "Every world that Vaylin terrorized is getting help". Something like that.

 

Wouldn't bother me, I mean, she did do that, it just still feels like "Please ignore the guy we don't want you to view as a villain any longer".

 

Yeah, Arcann did more damage to the galaxy (that we know of) than Vaylin. Unless she was on the frontlines during the initial war, but again, he would have been the Emperor at the time.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Paulsutherland

[gamephil]

Well ... to be fair ... returns? sure ... but If I'm required to sacrifice certain individuals to get Vaylin back ... I'll be smashing their kill options ASAP!

.

 

They still need to return first.

[Paulsutherland]

They still need to return first.

 

I'll take an I.O.U.

[gamephil]

I'll take an I.O.U.

 

Yeah, there are a lot of them I just don't care about, whether I did before or not, and even the ones I did no longer seem to have a story purpose, so they're almost entirely cosmetic once the brief "we're back!" scene has played out. I'd like that to change, but unless it does, I'm not going to balk at letting some go to get her back.

[Paulsutherland]

Yeah, there are a lot of them I just don't care about, whether I did before or not, and even the ones I did no longer seem to have a story purpose, so they're almost entirely cosmetic once the brief "we're back!" scene has played out. I'd like that to change, but unless it does, I'm not going to balk at letting some go to get her back.

 

Even as random background npcs would do for them, but if that's not available ... then I see no reason to keep the around anymore. Let them serve my voodoo ritual!

[drug_cartel]

Personally, I think it should be shaped by your story decisions. I am fine if not all of the Valkorian family can be saved. In fact, I think it would be a pretty hokey story if they all could.

 

But, if you kill Arcann and kill Senya, and never accept Valkorian's power, then by the time you have your showdown with Vaylin, it would be awesome to have her agree with you about the need to destroy her family. To heck with redemption; she remains there as a Dark Side choice that, if you slaughter her family, she will actually step down from the throne in order join forces with you and fight Valkorian in the mindscape. If you give Vaylin what she wants, the severed heads of each of her family members, then she is happy to live life as your ruthless enforcer, instead of being tied to the throne when she has no interest in politics.

[gamephil]

I'd dislike "kill her family to get her on our side as she is" somewhat less than having to kill her, but not a lot. Not in this case. If she were just a villain, with full agency, awesome. As it is, for an option, also awesome, but as the only option, it's just not that much of an improvement.

 

Honestly OK with hokey for this. Too many "abuse survivor must die" or "mentally ill person just needs to die because they're broken" stories out there already. Maybe Senya sacrifices herself to save both as the LS option to make it less so, but I am satisfied with being able to save them all if they go that way. As long as doing so or not is our choice.

 

I'd still do it, mind, I just want something more than that.

Edited March 31, 2018 by gamephil

[Paulsutherland]

Honestly OK with hokey for this. Too many "abuse survivor must die" or "mentally ill person just needs to die because they're broken" stories out there already. Maybe Senya sacrifices herself to save both as the LS option to make it less so, but I am satisfied with being able to save them all if they go that way. As long as doing so or not is our choice.

 

I'd still do it, mind, I just want something more than that.

 

^^^^^

 

Senya's sacrifice would of had a greater impact had it been in there. Might of made KOTET more palatable.

[fishpeople]

or maby her mother will save her in a way that see did with arcann was beautiful to see a mothers love to give everything to save her son and she was right

 

That would be nice.

 

Well, several of us have already said that Vaylin's return should not be at the expense of returning companions, and it's certainly not our fault that the Consulars have had to wait so long for, well, everyone. My first character was a Consular, and while I don't play him any more, it's still not great that they haven't come back.

 

I'm on mixed feelings with this. Yes I want the originals back, but if it's just going to join the two minutes gang and be set up in a way they're likely to never return after that, I would rather they take their time bringing back the rest.

[gamephil]

I'm on mixed feelings with this. Yes I want the originals back, but if it's just going to join the two minutes gang and be set up in a way they're likely to never return after that, I would rather they take their time bringing back the rest.

 

Absolutely.

[fishpeople]

Don't get me wrong, I want them to come back, but companions like Kira and Scourge were the ideal people to bring back for KOTET, and they were no shows, they've lost the ideal moment to bring those two back. If and when they do come back, if it just a two minute excuse for not finding us, then I would prefer they not bring them back at all.

[pazzakey]

Personally, I think it should be shaped by your story decisions. I am fine if not all of the Valkorian family can be saved. In fact, I think it would be a pretty hokey story if they all could.

 

But, if you kill Arcann and kill Senya, and never accept Valkorian's power, then by the time you have your showdown with Vaylin, it would be awesome to have her agree with you about the need to destroy her family. To heck with redemption; she remains there as a Dark Side choice that, if you slaughter her family, she will actually step down from the throne in order join forces with you and fight Valkorian in the mindscape. If you give Vaylin what she wants, the severed heads of each of her family members, then she is happy to live life as your ruthless enforcer, instead of being tied to the throne when she has no interest in politics.

 

Siding with Vaylin was something I wanted to do on my DS Knight.

 

I'd dislike "kill her family to get her on our side as she is" somewhat less than having to kill her, but not a lot. Not in this case. If she were just a villain, with full agency, awesome. As it is, for an option, also awesome, but as the only option, it's just not that much of an improvement.

 

Honestly OK with hokey for this. Too many "abuse survivor must die" or "mentally ill person just needs to die because they're broken" stories out there already. Maybe Senya sacrifices herself to save both as the LS option to make it less so, but I am satisfied with being able to save them all if they go that way. As long as doing so or not is our choice.

 

I'd still do it, mind, I just want something more than that.

 

Me too

[Paulsutherland]

Don't get me wrong, I want them to come back, but companions like Kira and Scourge were the ideal people to bring back for KOTET, and they were no shows, they've lost the ideal moment to bring those two back. If and when they do come back, if it just a two minute excuse for not finding us, then I would prefer they not bring them back at all.

 

The moment these characters could have flourished has come and gone Not much they can do now to do them justice.

[drug_cartel]

Vaylin was too crazy to let live. She was even murdering her own people on immature whims.

 

I don't think there is anything the writers could do to justify her becoming an ally, unless she had been written differently much earlier. (as in not batsh-t crazy)

 

Vaylin refusing to surrender and embrace the light side like Arcann, also felt completely in-character. Some characters should be irredeemable.

 

Allying and Redemption do not have to be the same thing.

 

Personally, when I murdered Senya, and I murdered Arcann, and I set myself against Valkorian 100%, determined to destroy him, and then I find this woman who has a thirst for battle and bloodshed and a hatred of Valkorian that rivals my own, I don't see a need to "fix" her. She seems like a perfect ally exactly the way she is. And considering that I personally killed every single person who had hurt her, I don't think it's too far fetched to think that she might actually be inclined to team with me instead of opposing me... when I'm doing everything she wanted.

 

I don't want to "redeem" Vaylin and force her to be good. But I don't see why, if you make the right series of choices in your story that would put you and Vaylin in alignment for similar goals, you couldn't simply have her join you as is. Honestly, even when Arcann leaves and Vaylin takes the throne, she never seems remotely interested in being a ruler. She has a personal agenda and it doesn't involve sitting on a fancy chair and directing the troops. Vaylin strikes me as the sort of person who would give up the throne in a heartbeat if that's what it took to get her revenge.

[gamephil]

Allying and Redemption do not have to be the same thing.

 

Personally, when I murdered Senya, and I murdered Arcann, and I set myself against Valkorian 100%, determined to destroy him, and then I find this woman who has a thirst for battle and bloodshed and a hatred of Valkorian that rivals my own, I don't see a need to "fix" her. She seems like a perfect ally exactly the way she is. And considering that I personally killed every single person who had hurt her, I don't think it's too far fetched to think that she might actually be inclined to team with me instead of opposing me... when I'm doing everything she wanted.

 

I don't want to "redeem" Vaylin and force her to be good. But I don't see why, if you make the right series of choices in your story that would put you and Vaylin in alignment for similar goals, you couldn't simply have her join you as is. Honestly, even when Arcann leaves and Vaylin takes the throne, she never seems remotely interested in being a ruler. She has a personal agenda and it doesn't involve sitting on a fancy chair and directing the troops. Vaylin strikes me as the sort of person who would give up the throne in a heartbeat if that's what it took to get her revenge.

 

I don't want to "fix" her. I want her to be given the choice she was denied. That might mean she stays the same, it might mean she doesn't. Too much of the story showed how it was ultimately taken from her, and then we got to add to that. Such fun. I just can't buy that a character who had "the laughter of a spirit breaking" and says "Choice, I could get used to that" had her own will. But I don't think either of us will get what we want in any event.

Edited April 9, 2018 by gamephil

[pazzakey]

Allying and Redemption do not have to be the same thing.

 

Personally, when I murdered Senya, and I murdered Arcann, and I set myself against Valkorian 100%, determined to destroy him, and then I find this woman who has a thirst for battle and bloodshed and a hatred of Valkorian that rivals my own, I don't see a need to "fix" her. She seems like a perfect ally exactly the way she is. And considering that I personally killed every single person who had hurt her, I don't think it's too far fetched to think that she might actually be inclined to team with me instead of opposing me... when I'm doing everything she wanted.

 

I don't want to "redeem" Vaylin and force her to be good. But I don't see why, if you make the right series of choices in your story that would put you and Vaylin in alignment for similar goals, you couldn't simply have her join you as is. Honestly, even when Arcann leaves and Vaylin takes the throne, she never seems remotely interested in being a ruler. She has a personal agenda and it doesn't involve sitting on a fancy chair and directing the troops. Vaylin strikes me as the sort of person who would give up the throne in a heartbeat if that's what it took to get her revenge.

 

Well said.

[Paulsutherland]

Allying and Redemption do not have to be the same thing.

 

Personally, when I murdered Senya, and I murdered Arcann, and I set myself against Valkorian 100%, determined to destroy him, and then I find this woman who has a thirst for battle and bloodshed and a hatred of Valkorian that rivals my own, I don't see a need to "fix" her. She seems like a perfect ally exactly the way she is. And considering that I personally killed every single person who had hurt her, I don't think it's too far fetched to think that she might actually be inclined to team with me instead of opposing me... when I'm doing everything she wanted.

 

I don't want to "redeem" Vaylin and force her to be good. But I don't see why, if you make the right series of choices in your story that would put you and Vaylin in alignment for similar goals, you couldn't simply have her join you as is. Honestly, even when Arcann leaves and Vaylin takes the throne, she never seems remotely interested in being a ruler. She has a personal agenda and it doesn't involve sitting on a fancy chair and directing the troops. Vaylin strikes me as the sort of person who would give up the throne in a heartbeat if that's what it took to get her revenge.

 

Vaylin never struck me as wanting anything other than taking revenge on those who had punished her in some way. Had there been an option to do it, I would have sacrificed Senya and Arcann to her.

 

LS Vaylin would have been nice, but DS Vaylin is already fun.

[DefenderTwo]

Is she just running around inside your head now?! We didn't eradicate her spirit like we did to Valkorian! I don't know about you guys, but I gave her the choice to side with me, she approved and she (along with Arcann and Senya, beautiful family moment fyi) helped me wipe the floor with Valkorian. So, she's just there now? Is that what future chapters could be about? I wanted to help the lady, especially after seeing the 'Betrayal' trailer, so maybe that opportunity will arise, but I feel a lot of the player base may not like that. Thoughts?

 

P.s. You could have given me 3 choices with Vaylin Bioware!!!! Why you make me kill her?

 

[Light] Knock her out, take her to the Voss Mystics

[less light/ Neutral] Sever her connection to the force. Jedi do it, so can I.

[Dark] Shishkebob her. Which we all did.

 

Did they ever say anything on this matter?

[gamephil]

Did they ever say anything on this matter?

 

Kind of: Arcann, if he's alive, sends you a note saying that his family is all gone except for Senya. I always took that to mean they were closing the door on any chance of doing more with her, just by the tone of the letter. It very much had the feel of the writers saying she's gone. I dislike it, and I don't see how Arcann is the one to deliver it (how can he know for sure, really?), but it does seem like they were having him spell out what was happening. I still think it's a waste.

Edited April 13, 2018 by gamephil

[DefenderTwo]

Kind of: Arcann, if he's alive, sends you a note saying that his family is all gone except for Senya. I always took that to mean they were closing the door on any chance of doing more with her, just by the tone of the letter. It very much had the feel of the writers saying she's gone. I dislike it, and I don't see how Arcann is the one to deliver it (how can he know for sure, really?), but it does seem like they were having him spell out what was happening. I still think it's a waste.

 

I'm almost certain the mail was only there as a foreshadow to the romance that came out a few weeks back. I think they were trying to show Arcann had changed.

 

I don't understand some of the dialog in the last two chapters of kotet, you've got Arcann speculating on Vaylin, while Senya is in the background doing nothing? Then during the final chapter some of Vaylin's dialog is confusing, I don't recall the exact line but it had something to do with her finally being able to make choices in her life.

 

Senya is one of my problems with the second expansion. She shows in the first expansion she's willing to go to great lengths to save her children, she even defeats Vaylin and refues to strike her, later she saves Arcann from his burning ship while having the balls to betray the Alliance to save her son. Then when kotet arrives if we help her, Senya all but gives up on Vaylin, kotet really ruined Senya's character for me. She saved Arcann then just gave up? As a mother I would have expected her to go to hell's door itself to save her children.

 

Then you've got the ending, the dream battle? We witness Senya and Arcann joining the fight via meditation near the throne, what happened to Vaylin? She wasn't thrown into the void with Valkorian. Did she return to her body? Did she join with the force? Is she trapped in the holocron? I don't know what happened?!

[Paulsutherland]

Senya was a disappointment ... Why didn't you go to the same length for Vaylin?!

[Blackvinils]

"deep breath"

........

 

Don't you think that the question of a different outcome of the story for Vaylin and others associated with It is too complicated? So many disagreements, controversies, as if we are talking about a real person, not the character of the game.

 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ac/55/be/ac55be9995071fec0bd830a511e8f2fd.jpg

 

Of course we all have our own opinions about it , but due to these disputes, the already very small chance that it could be something else.

 

It's like some kind of vicious circle.

 

 

#Arcann,Nathema&Vaylin

[Paulsutherland]

Don't you think that the question of a different outcome of the story for Vaylin and others associated with It is too complicated?

 

Doesn't hurt to talk about it, but If I'm reading what you said right ... yes ... changing the ending is a no no. Asking for her to return whether it be by Revan's anti death cheat code, Force Ghost ... Sith Voodoo ... is still open for discussion.

 

It's like some kind of vicious circle

 

The circle of life?

[DefenderTwo]

"deep breath"

........

 

Don't you think that the question of a different outcome of the story for Vaylin and others associated with It is too complicated? So many disagreements, controversies, as if we are talking about a real person, not the character of the game.

 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ac/55/be/ac55be9995071fec0bd830a511e8f2fd.jpg

 

Of course we all have our own opinions about it , but due to these disputes, the already very small chance that it could be something else.

 

It's like some kind of vicious circle.

 

 

#Arcann,Nathema&Vaylin

 

I don't think asking for them to change the story to suit us would be an acceptable approach to this, no. However asking for the character to return, ideally from the story doesn't harm anyone, nor does asking for a Vaylin Companion through the Cartel Market.