Possibilty for SWTOR to Go Full Pay-to-Win

[Jerba]

by this (silly) logic, couldn't your raid group also just pop an xp pot and THEN run NiM content to gear up? The epeen in video games these days is so flippin' ridiculous.

No, if you have to spend CC to get the optimal CXP/hour rate, then there's no fun in farming CXP.

Also, not sure what you're getting at. Nowadays, MMOs are more casual-friendly than they were 3-10 years ago. I'm not saying anything against casual players, so don't ridicule players who take this game more seriously than you.

[psandak]

At the same time, not defining it as pay to win, doesn't mean it's desirable. If think I could live a whole lot easier with the gc xp boosts than them selling the gearboxes in the CM. I prefer to have neither to be clear, but I think that if they were to sell the gc xp boosts, I would be able to accept that as I stated before, but if the gear boxes were to be sold in the CM it would devaluate the whole Galactic Command system and I'd likely quit the game over it.

 

Next question: what if - just like XP boosts - you can buy CXP boosts off the CM, BUT they would also be available as a random drop in a command crate (ala XP boosts from cartel packs) or from mission rewards ("complete the 'highlighted activity' and get a CXP boost")

 

and I'm surprised the forum never blew up over them selling @60 characters on the CM.

 

Probably because every subscriber got one for free

[Warrgames]

SWTOR has already gone full P2W. You have to pay for a sub to get the best gear in the game. You idea of SWTOR going P2W is stupid. By your statement SWTOR was always P2W since CM was introduced. They always sold EXP boost. Which means you leveled faster and were able to get end game faster. Therefore you got end gear faster. By your logic SWTOR has always been P2W.

 

 

P2W is the only way to obtain the best gear in a game is through buying it.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Warrgames

[Jerba]

Next question: what if - just like XP boosts - you can buy CXP boosts off the CM, BUT they would also be available as a random drop in a command crate (ala XP boosts from cartel packs) or from mission rewards ("complete the 'highlighted activity' and get a CXP boost")

I wouldn't mind that as long as they drop plentily. As someone already stated, someone who plays multiple hours each day should drown in these passes, and only the casual players should need to buy them on the CM if they want to keep up.

But the better option would be to not have these passes at all. No matter how they implement it, this will either be P2W or very close to P2W, and given that the devs have stated multiple times they don't want to go P2W, this has me very worried.

 

I'm surprised the forum never blew up over them selling @60 characters on the CM.

It is not too much different from XP boosts, and you can get to max level quickly enough that it doesn't matter much; it's more of a convenience for players who don't feel like leveling up their alts.

WoW also sells character boosts and the player base didn't mind it because it doesn't even come close to selling power. If anything, it helped curb the goldsellers because they also offered leveling services.

 

SWTOR has already gone full P2W. You have to pay for a sub to get the best gear in the game. You idea of SWTOR going P2W is stupid. P2W is the only way to obtain the best gear in a game is through buying it.

I never minded the subscription cost; you have to pay the devs some way to keep the game alive, and a subscription is standard for MMOs. Once you are subscribed, you get access to every endgame content, and it's not possible for some players to like pay two subscriptions and get more power than me.

As explained on the previous pages, we don't consider an XP boost to be P2W because leveling up takes a limited time and this is only a fraction of the time you spend at endgame, so the XP boosts have nothing to do with how you get endgame gear.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Jerba

[Jamtas]

Great points. The only reason I consider this more P2W is the fact that gear is all RNG. The more rolls you get at loot, the better chance you have to get the thing you needed. The only way to get more rolls in during the time you play, is to buy the boosts. It doesn't matter if you're casual (1-2 hours a month) or hardcore (8+ hours a day)...you're not buying less time to complete anything, you're buying more rolls while you play. These are more like buying an extra loot roll in Operations.

 

IMO I feel like P2W and P2Accelerate are almost one in the same. Both are in the mode of if you pay RL money you have an edge.

As was mentioned, the cartel crystals did have an advantage as they could be equipped at level 10 with a higher rating than those crafted - along with advantage of unlimited unlocks in collection compared to the crafted ones. They certainly killed the crafting market on those outside the few who wanted the red/green/blue looks with end game crystals

[Nightblazer]

Selling XP boosts or instant level boost is not the same as selling power. It just lets people blaze through content faster. It doesn't give that person who gets to max level faster then someone who didn't use a boost other then taking longer to get there.

 

Nothing wrong with increased leveling speed. Selling "power" would be me putting down money to buy max level gear from the cartel market. So let's say in the next expansion the max item level is 275. If they sell 275 gear directly in the cartel market or via packs then yes that's selling power.

 

XP boosts or cxp boosts isn't selling power. Like the person above said, no one complains wow sells instant level boosts. So why here. You can even buy an item in game that allows you to get an extra loot tool from raid bosses.

 

Yes your limited to how many you can carry to do that but if you have the in game gold or other currency you can buy more. The cost increases each purchase until it resets each week but those that rack up tons of gold can keep doing it.

 

So no boosts to xp or cxp is not selling power.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Nightblazer

[MeNaCe-NZ]

It is all relative as you say but pay to win in my book is that you have to pay real money beyond the normal price of playing the game to get ACCESS to the best gear. As long as it's a matter of speed and indeed the difference isn't too ridiculous, I don't consider it pay to win.

 

That's why definitions are important.

 

So not allowing preferred/f2p access to the best gear is pay to win by your own definition?

 

So we already know for a fact we are getting pay to win then in that sense and the speculation of this thread is around a boost that will allow you to get in a situation where you will be statistically stronger than your opposition for a yet to be determined period of time? I say yet to be determined because we are basically debating a time boost here and whatever benefit in time that boost gives you ideally you will have a distinct advantage over competition not using the boost with everything else being equal ( play time, activity etc. ).

 

In time it would balance out and not ideally be pay to win at all as everyone gets top end gear but the changes to not allowing preferred/f2p any access to GC is completely pay to win by your own definition?

[Jerba]

As was mentioned, the cartel crystals did have an advantage as they could be equipped at level 10 with a higher rating than those crafted - along with advantage of unlimited unlocks in collection compared to the crafted ones. They certainly killed the crafting market on those outside the few who wanted the red/green/blue looks with end game crystals

Yeah, they were never perceived as P2W because

a) It is very easy to get a crystal from GTN.

b) They are just a one-time cost thanks to collections, and because they are not affected by new gear tiers (+41 crystals are still BiS).

So in the end, they are just a cosmetic item like armor sets and only have a very small impact on endgame gearing.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Jerba

[Rolodome]

SWTOR has already gone full P2W. You have to pay for a sub to get the best gear in the game. You idea of SWTOR going P2W is stupid. By your statement SWTOR was always P2W since CM was introduced. They always sold EXP boost. Which means you leveled faster and were able to get end game faster. Therefore you got end gear faster. By your logic SWTOR has always been P2W.

 

 

P2W is the only way to obtain the best gear in a game is through buying it.

No matter what way you spin it, the fact remains that they went out of their way to state on a livestream that galactic command has nothing to do with the cartel market. It's one thing to say, "It is our intent that the two will have no association" and something else entirely to state black-and-white, with no caveats or "things may change" disclaimer, that the two will have nothing to do with each other.

 

They virtually never talk with that kind of certainty about anything, yet they did here. Why? To convince people to sub and full a fast one later? Because they were certain and someone higher up pulled the rug out? It raises all kinds of questions about the integrity going on in that office if CXP boosts end up on the CM.

 

And the fact that they have not already jumped in and quashed this only makes it more likely that they have real plans to do it, considering it's a pretty controversial decision. The question is, who screwed the pooch and why?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Very much agree. And your definition of Pay-2-Win is in fact the most objective.

 

The problem with the cavalier use (which is how it is often used in the forum here) of the term Pay-2-Win is that it has just become a meme for prosecuting anything you do not like in a game. Players therefore have all manner of definitions for the term, and even change them on the fly to suit the issue they are trying to "spin" themselves.

 

Some people have strong narratives they wish to prosecute in a gaming forum, so no attempt to stabilize a definition for the purposes of a discussion is going to be effective in this context.

 

The problem is the definition doesn't really matter, it's each individuals interpretation of such an item that matters.

 

People can cry from the rooftops all they like "no, no you are wrong! That's not pay to win!" but if the other person thinks it is and dislikes it enough to leave the game ... well that's a loss to us all in a sense and you thinking your definition was correct doesn't change this simple fact.

[TUXs]

No matter what way you spin it, the fact remains that they went out of their way to state on a livestream that galactic command has nothing to do with the cartel market...

Yet, we can all see that it has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with the CM. It's 100% the reason they went with new XP...so they could sell boosts. We're not stupid.

[psandak]

So no boosts to cxp is not selling power.

 

But from a certain point of view (one that I do not agree with), CXP boosts do sell power because as one gains CXP levels they will be granted access to higher rating gear. Using current ratings as a COMPLETELY FABRICATED (no truth to it whatsoever) example:

 

command levels 1-10 command crates give rating 208

command levels 11-20 command crates give rating 216

command levels 21-30 command crates give rating 220

command levels 31-40 command crates give rating 224

 

So if someone can get to command level 31 faster, that person has an advantage over the rest, and the rest have to decide whether to slog it out without the CXP boost or break down and buy them. Hardcore guilds (the few that might still exist) would probably require their members to acquire them anyway they can.

 

But this is just another case of pay to accelerate. Everyone WILL eventually get to the highest tier, but there are some who believe that paying to get there faster is P2W (again I am NOT one of them)

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Actually, it's pay-to-play. Noting indicates any player will actually "win" anything by having to pay a sub to play particular content. They will however, experience more access to game content, which is precisely how flexible access models work for MMOs.

 

See... Pay-2-Win originated around the idea that players could pay to win in PvP... as in not have to go through all the same steps and effort as other players to be competitive ... but rather buy into being competitive by simply paying real money to insta-cap items, skills, etc. etc. Which in turn puts pressure on everyone to do exactly the same thing. Yes, you could extend this to PvE content.. but let's be honest here... winning to most MMO players centers around beating other players at something... and there is less case for this in the PvE space.

 

There will always be two or more camps on discussion about "boosts". And people are often very subjective on this.. claiming that their particular craved boost is not P-2-W but Billy's definitely is. It's a classic circular argument in a gaming forum, complete with a big flush-handle.

 

Huh? You cannot get gear unless you pay is somehow "Noting indicates any player will actually "win" anything by having to pay a sub to play particular content. " - How does that logic work?

 

You pay you get end game gear, I don't pay I don't get gear. We both queue a warzone you stomp me in the mud because you got better gear by paying ... sounds like to pay to win to me.

[Andryah]

Huh? You cannot get gear unless you pay is somehow "Noting indicates any player will actually "win" anything by having to pay a sub to play particular content. " - How does that logic work?

 

You pay you get end game gear, I don't pay I don't get gear. We both queue a warzone you stomp me in the mud because you got better gear by paying ... sounds like to pay to win to me.

 

Thank you for once again not reading what I said, in context, and jumping sideways.

 

What do you win? besides access to the newest content via your sub?

 

Arguing just for the sake of arguing? I ask because right above, you stated that you do not think the issue being debated is pay to win. All I said was that what one person claimed was pay-2-win was actually just pay-2-play. No sub, no access to the 65-70 content and GC end game efforts.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Andryah

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Bravo for trying to reason with the gang but I'd quit while you're ahead. This whole thread is just getting silly now and it's clear you can't reason with these people with facts. Not to mention this entire thread is based on speculation and datamined information.

 

Based on your previous posts ... "facts" doesn't mean what you think it means.

[Rolodome]

Yet, we can all see that it has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with the CM. It's 100% the reason they went with new XP...so they could sell boosts. We're not stupid.

I guess I am stupid then, Tux, because I try to take people at their word. Relationships require trust, even buyer-seller relationships, and if I can't trust them to tell the truth about their plans, then I would consider myself pretty stupid to stick around.

[CorellianWannabe]

Still not pay to win.

 

You've convinced me with your irrefutable logic, oh great white whale.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Thank you for once again not reading what I said, in context, and jumping sideways.

 

What do you win? besides access to the newest content via your sub?

 

Arguing just for the sake of arguing? I ask because right above, you stated that you do not think the issue being debated is pay to win. All I said was that what one person claimed was pay-2-win was actually just pay-2-play. No sub, no access to the 65-70 content and GC end game efforts.

 

You ... Win ... Gear.

 

How hard is this to understand?

 

I stated I don't think the boosts are pay to win but I certainly think having to sub to get access to stat based gear is. Preferred get access to 5 warzones a week so that's 5 warzones they have no hope in hell of competing at ( at level 70 ) if they don't have access to gear.

 

If you somehow don't think I said this allow me to quote myself for you:

 

So not allowing preferred/f2p access to the best gear is pay to win by your own definition?

 

So we already know for a fact we are getting pay to win then in that sense

 

In time it would balance out and not ideally be pay to win at all as everyone gets top end gear but the changes to not allowing preferred/f2p any access to GC is completely pay to win by your own definition?

 

I was using Tsillah's definition there that they provided but I agree then based on that definition we are getting Pay to win for the above obvious reason.

 

As it stands players have to pay to access gear, not just content. Being that gear is used in competitive aspects of this game ... it's pay to win.

[TUXs]

I guess I am stupid then, Tux, because I try to take people at their word. Relationships require trust, even buyer-seller relationships, and if I can't trust them to tell the truth about their plans, then I would consider myself pretty stupid to stick around.

I never said that, nor do I believe it. CXP seems like it was 100% developed to sell CXP stims. Grinding to 70 wasn't enough? Doing 5-year old content wasn't enough? Re-grinding gear wasn't enough? I find it ridiculous. I trust those who have earned my trust.

 

You're free to leave if you want. nobody is making you stay here and play. I tend to not trust anyone who's after every cent they can get from me...I'm glad you're not that cynical yet...

[Alphasgimaone]

"Pay2Win" is such a commonly misused pejorative these days. It refers to the deluge of MMOs that came out in the late 2000s (Yes, there were a lot of them. Most of them you've probably never heard of.) that all had some mechanic where BiS gear was attainable ONLY through spending real money. And in fact there usually was no actual "best." Basically, gear cap was limited solely on how much real money someone was willing to throw at it. So in essence, the guy with the largest credit balance had the best gear. Or 'won' the game.

 

Any system were the end result is a zero sum does not result in winning. It's a temporary advantage at best. And, in most cases where "pay to win" gets falsely thrown around, it's ultimately fleeting--which is what I expect this to be, if what OP says even ends up being true.

[Krazhez]

People saying subscribing is p2w makes me laugh. This game was originally a sub game, most games you can only get a trial if you dont sub, or you get limited endgame options similar to this game. Boosts have always been pay for convenience(valor/xp/whatever), and so is subbing. You can't straight up buy the best endgame gear pcs you want from the cm. And I don't think they will ever do that unless the game goes full f2p. I don't see the problem with these boosts overall and here, read what Alphas said again.

 

"Pay2Win" is such a commonly misused pejorative these days. It refers to the deluge of MMOs that came out in the late 2000s (Yes, there were a lot of them. Most of them you've probably never heard of.) that all had some mechanic where BiS gear was attainable ONLY through spending real money. And in fact there usually was no actual "best." Basically, gear cap was limited solely on how much real money someone was willing to throw at it. So in essence, the guy with the largest credit balance had the best gear. Or 'won' the game.

 

Any system were the end result is a zero sum does not result in winning. It's a temporary advantage at best. And, in most cases where "pay to win" gets falsely thrown around, it's ultimately fleeting--which is what I expect this to be, if what OP says even ends up being true.

[Bruticis]

I never said that, nor do I believe it. CXP seems like it was 100% developed to sell CXP stims. Grinding to 70 wasn't enough? Doing 5-year old content wasn't enough? Re-grinding gear wasn't enough? I find it ridiculous. I trust those who have earned my trust.

 

You're free to leave if you want. nobody is making you stay here and play. I tend to not trust anyone who's after every cent they can get from me...I'm glad you're not that cynical yet...

 

Which begs the question I keep asking that no one can answer. If you're convinced this all just an evil money grab by the Illuminati, why on earth would you keep paying them? I'm certainly not advocating anyone leave but if the gang seems to think Bioware is fire, why do they keep sticking their hands in the fire OVER and OVER? I'm honestly curious?

[psandak]

"Pay2Win" is such a commonly misused pejorative these days. It refers to the deluge of MMOs that came out in the late 2000s (Yes, there were a lot of them. Most of them you've probably never heard of.) that all had some mechanic where BiS gear was attainable ONLY through spending real money. And in fact there usually was no actual "best." Basically, gear cap was limited solely on how much real money someone was willing to throw at it. So in essence, the guy with the largest credit balance had the best gear. Or 'won' the game.

 

Any system were the end result is a zero sum does not result in winning. It's a temporary advantage at best. And, in most cases where "pay to win" gets falsely thrown around, it's ultimately fleeting--which is what I expect this to be, if what OP says even ends up being true.

 

Well said.

[ZeroTypeR]

CXP boosts? I hope you're kidding me...because that's not ok......

 

Maybe pay to go faster, since it's the same result with or without the boost. Idk tho, I won't be buying them.

[TUXs]

Which begs the question I keep asking that no one can answer. If you're convinced this all just an evil money grab by the Illuminati, why on earth would you keep paying them? I'm certainly not advocating anyone leave but if the gang seems to think Bioware is fire, why do they keep sticking their hands in the fire OVER and OVER? I'm honestly curious?

Not that I ever said that of course, but I will answer you...it's because "I" enjoy the game obviously. However, I've watched several servers die, countless guilds go poof and there's nothing in 5.0 that will even pretends to slow the hemorrhaging. It's because I enjoy this game that I point out the stupid **** they do. It's because I want to see this game thrive, not wither and die.