Where is the old PvP gear going in 5.0

[IanArgent]

I don't really see why this is so much of a debate. Dark Reaver gear, which was the tier 2 (highest) pvp gear for the 3.0 cycle was rating 184 right? And the highest rating raid gear for the resurrected was 198. Both those gear sets were screwed in 4.0. You couldn't wear resurrected gear because being 198 it was higher than then the rating cutoff of 190, so your bolstered expertise was terrible. You couldn't wear Dark Reaver gear because it wouldn't be bolstered at all, since all the pieces had expertise on them. Both raiders and pvp-ers were screwed leveling via pvp from 60 to 65 or even starting out at 65 pvp.

 

The only way to retain a set bonus moving from 3.0 to 4.0 was to use 192 armorings with crafted 186 mods and vendor bought 190 enhancements. Or, use nightmare-gained 186 armorings but that was only a 4-piece bonus.

 

Because expertise is going away, it almost certainly means we will have to rely on bolster prior to 70 and probably have to rely on some weird combination of low tier set bonus armorings and crafted mods/enhancements to stay under some item rating level. Ironically, they haven't simplified the system at all, at least not for veterans.

 

But, they were both screwed more-or-less equally, though for different reasons.

[TUXs]

I'd be OK with the 208s going to 220 instead of 224, especially if 224-stat item mods can be had for grade 10 crafting or from credit vendors. The difference between 220 and 224 is minimal enough that skill will overcome it

Likewise. I have my full 224 set as well, I just don't want players with full 208's being screwed on day 1...and 2...and 3...and so on...

[IanArgent]

Likewise. I have my full 224 set as well, I just don't want players with full 208's being screwed on day 1...and 2...and 3...and so on...

 

Hah - now all I need to do is Gabigool to agree with me on something and the apocalypse will be nigh!

[TUXs]

Hah - now all I need to do is Gabigool to agree with me on something and the apocalypse will be nigh!

Ya know what's funny? When people take the time to try to understand other players issues, they usually tend to see that they have a point. YOU have taken the time to understand why this change really impacts PvPers. I don't think it's about us agreeing with you - I think it demonstrates that you understand the broader impact of the change and how it impacts players that aren't named Ian

 

(that's a compliment btw)

[Transcendent]

I don't really see why this is so much of a debate.

 

....

 

Because expertise is going away, it almost certainly means we will have to rely on bolster prior to 70 and probably have to rely on some weird combination of low tier set bonus armorings and crafted mods/enhancements to stay under some item rating level. Ironically, they haven't simplified the system at all, at least not for veterans.

 

This right here is why it is a debate. Bolster will not have an effect on tertiary stats (unless it's altered to do so.) That's been confirmed by Eric.

 

Which means a player in 208 gear is substantially at a disadvantage over someone in 220/224 gear in the amount of dps they can produce. iirc, the difference for example on a Merc mathmatically between 216 and 224 gear is ~500 dps, the difference between 208 and 224 is greater.

 

So when 5.0 lands, those players in current 208 PvP gear will lose the equalising factor of Expertise in creating a level playing field between the higher rated PvE gear and lower rated PvP gear. While I'm not sad to see Expertise go, it makes little difference in the end though, because PvP doesn't require accuracy where PvE does. So I would still require two sets of gear if running both types of content.

 

I don't see any sensible reasoning behind it, I know the debate is about the difference between gear when 5.0 lands, but no-one seems to mention what the rational behind the decision actually is. The removal of Expertise and making PvP and PvE gear the same is to cut down on the developer time required to create new tiers of gear, and to adjust bolster accordingly each expansion cycle (no other reason aside from marketing fluff).

[teclado]

What Transcendent said.

 

There's certainly going to be an awkward transitional stage. The major gripe this time is the fact that expertise goes away, meaning 224/216 set bonus PVE gear is instantly better than the 4.X best PVP gear. Compound that with the fact that ranked will have no pre-season, meaning that PVE gear will have some effect on rating in the early days of 5.0. We really need a pre-season. If we had a PS, I'd be inclined to have no problem with this.

 

We shouldn't need two completely separate PVE and PVP gear sets, but we'll probably need a few extra pieces to change out for optimizing e.g. accuracy. So you might have a full set plus and extra 2-4. Except for tanks - tanks will need two sets.

Edited November 2, 2016 by teclado

[Darkside]

 

I don't see any sensible reasoning behind it, I know the debate is about the difference between gear when 5.0 lands, but no-one seems to mention what the rational behind the decision actually is. The removal of Expertise and making PvP and PvE gear the same is to cut down on the developer time required to create new tiers of gear, and to adjust bolster accordingly each expansion cycle (no other reason aside from marketing fluff).

 

What's wrong with that rationale? The more time they have, the more opportunity they have to fix bugs and create content, so I do agree with them. And expertise should have never been introduced from the start.

 

Yes pvpers will have to go through some growing pains to get leveled out, but honestly in 3-6 months it won't even be an issue anymore. While it may not be fair, a smart pvp'er would start acquiring 220/224 gear right now, so there will be less transitional problems for him/her.

Whether they should have to, or not, is rather moot. It is what it is and we can't change it.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Darkside

[Transcendent]

3-6 months it won't even be an issue anymore.

 

You're absolutely right on that part. Probably not for the reasoning you're thinking though

[Darkside]

You're absolutely right on that part. Probably not for the reasoning you're thinking though

 

So you're saying there will be an increase in unemployment benefits being payed out in the Austin area?

Edited November 2, 2016 by Darkside

[CorellianWannabe]

It's by far the easier means to get gear both in terms of difficulty and time spent... I suppose that would be the drawback for taking the easy route. No I don't have a vendetta against pvp players, and if gearing up took as long as it did raiding, I would vouch for it being converted into something worth while.

 

That doesn't jive with the raiders whining about how it only takes two hours to gear a character now with tokens compared to the upcoming RNG grind.

 

You act like raiders are special for choosing to martyr themselves- "I did the real content that takes longer for fewer rewards! I deserve more for my time on the cross!" No one forces raiders to run ancient content over and over for what... the satisfaction of beating Karagga's grunts like a drum AGAIN?

 

I am surprised you didn't use the term 'welfare epics' though.

Edited November 2, 2016 by CorellianWannabe

[CorellianWannabe]

Wait lol, so...they're not bumping 208 gear up to like 220 stats?? They've got to....they can't leave it in such a **** place...there's no way they're that dimwitted...not when PvPers will still want to PvP, despite 5.0.

 

Don't forget that those players in 208 will be going up against the RNG winners in 228 or whatever the first tier is until the gear starts to even out.

[BadHoneyBadger]

Eww.... no. There is no way 208 pvp gear should be equivalent to 220, let alone 224. It is far easier to obtain PVP gear as you're getting your own reward at the end of a match, the same is not true for operations, and unlike operations which is a pass or fail thing, you can afk in pvp getting dailies done eventually "earning" your gear.

I agree I'd say put the 208 pvp gear on par with 216 SM ops gear. If you look at the stats DPSing on a dummy the PvP gear surpasses the 208 comm gear by quite a bit while just barely losing to the 216 gear. I think the main reason for such a big difference between the 208 sets is set bonuses. Another option is to take the expertise out of the gear and just leave the set bonus alone making a sort of 208+ set or a 204+ set but who knows.

[phalczen]

This right here is why it is a debate. Bolster will not have an effect on tertiary stats (unless it's altered to do so.) That's been confirmed by Eric.

 

Which means a player in 208 gear is substantially at a disadvantage over someone in 220/224 gear in the amount of dps they can produce. iirc, the difference for example on a Merc mathmatically between 216 and 224 gear is ~500 dps, the difference between 208 and 224 is greater.

 

So, just for academic curiosity, I wanted to check this out. I have mostly 224 gear with a few pieces like head, OH, and implants as 220s. I'm configured according to Bant's thread for 220 gear as a Seer Sage. That gives me 1468 critical rating or 43.17% crit chance (after class buffs etc) with 69.48% crit multiplier and 1372 alacrity for 13.08% speed bonus. My power is that setup is 2780 which contributes 472.6 to my bonus healing.

 

If I swap out four 224 enhancement for three 204 and one 208 pvp enhancement (three adept 44 and one quick savant 44 for two adept 39X, one quick savant 39X, and one adept 40X) that lowers my critical rating to 1361 (for 42.34% crit chance/68.65% crit multiplier) and 1334 alacrity (12.81% speed bonus). My power is down to 2673 which contributes 454.4 bonus healing. So, changing four 224 mods to pvp mods reduced my healing output by 18.2 points, lowered my critical chance by a whopping 0.83%, my surge by 0.83%, and my speed boost by 0.27%. I've lost some bonus healing, but gained 4.5% in healing of players because of 161 expertise, which more than makes up for the 18 point loss in the size of my heals. Furthermore, since power is a secondary stat it is bolstered, so the loss is pretty much only in terms of tertiary stats. These are pretty small number differences. Granted, I only used four enhancements, since I have more alacrity in my pvp enhancements than my pve because im only using the default gear from the pvp vendor.

 

You can't use Bant's estimation of dps differences between 224 and 216 gear for pvp because #1) he is using optimal rotations which aren't always possible even in operations and certainly not in pvp, and #2) he assumes 110% accuracy which is less important in pvp, allowing players to stack other things in exchange.

 

The key here is that we're working with values that are already close to the asymptotes of curves for these numbers ... i.e. already at the point of diminishing returns. This curve will change shape of course for 5.0 but I certainly don't expect the 208-224 gear to be on a linear-like portion of the curve.

 

Of course the bolster in lowbies will be to 70. Wouldn't make sense to have it any other way. So, we are absolutely dependent upon bolster from 65 to 70. And, as I pointed out earlier in the thread, and Ian Argent agreed, end game raiders and end game pvp'ers were both screwed with the 3.0 to 4.0 transition requiring both groups of players to use low-tier pve armorings and game the bolster system if they wanted to maintain a set bonus in pvp. Raiders couldn't use 198 armorings and enhancements in pvp unless they dropped down to 174 or lower mods (174 was Kell Dragon which wasn't craftable, the closest craftable version would be 156 I think). All that for a very tiny sub percent advantage in tertiary stats over someone using a 190 vendor bought enhancement.

 

We have no idea how bolster will work moving forward, since expertise is being removed, but I'll bet dollars to donuts both groups of players will have to game the system somehow to maintain your set bonus in pvp moving into galactic command.

 

(Edited for grammar)

Edited November 3, 2016 by phalczen

[phalczen]

it makes little difference in the end though, because PvP doesn't require accuracy where PvE does. So I would still require two sets of gear if running both types of content.

 

Or, it might just make using the Accuracy Stim introduced with 4.0 essential if you do both types of content, instead of optional over the Versatile (mastery) stim. Two 220 initiative enhancements and two accuracy augments, plus the companion legacy bonus totals to 107.47% accuracy. The math is 160 x 2 + 73 x 2 = 466 or 6.47%, which is enough with the stim to get to perfect 684 accuracy for pve content. Even though 107.47% is probably a bit too high for pvp, based on the threads I've followed, its easy enough to swap out an augment or two to bring it to 105.61%, which probably is probably better for pvp, and then a mastery stim. If you put your accuracy augments on your MH/OH or on left side, its easy to swap those out. I like to use different outfits and of course MH/OH for pvp than for pve anyway.

 

At least it gives the biochemists more stuff to sell.

 

Now, granted, who knows what the target goal Accuracy Rating for pve will be come 5.0, but I imagine it will be easier to get away with one gear set by using the accuracy stim of the new tier.

[IanArgent]

Ya know what's funny? When people take the time to try to understand other players issues, they usually tend to see that they have a point. YOU have taken the time to understand why this change really impacts PvPers. I don't think it's about us agreeing with you - I think it demonstrates that you understand the broader impact of the change and how it impacts players that aren't named Ian

 

(that's a compliment btw)

 

Why, thank you

 

I must admit, I do a fair amount of (casual) PvP and have a couple of sets of 204 PvP, so it's not like I won't benefit from what I'm advocating. OTOH, if they leave it equivalent to 208 stats with set gear, I'll grumble and jump on the CXP treadmill.