OMG Something nearly everyone agrees with

[Shwarzchild]

New story in KOTET: good thing

Chapter difficulty: good thing

New kind of content in Uprisings: good thing:

Galactic Command: 99 percent good thing

RNG based gearing: the 1 percent change that destroys all the other good things.

[Icykill_]

I understand completely what you are doing here. And it's always like this leading up to a new expac where fundamental changes are being made to the game feature set and mechanics. The only real difference is there is perhaps more passion surrounding them putting box contents behind RNG.

 

By the way.. the forum is just going to get worse moving forward about 5.0. This is just the first layer of rage taking place. It's too early to unify with pitchforks and rush the castle.

It won't make any difference though.. so my suggestion is to relax and let it play out.

 

Who needs pitch forks..

[TechbotAlpha]

You really don't get level sync do you

Drop rates are set to character level so going back on a level 65 to a low level planet still sees you get decent drop rewards.

 

Except drops are pretty much useless for anyone who uses data crystals to slot their gear, or people who have characters who craft.

 

All THAT change has done is made it nigh impossible to get certain world drops, including some sets, which makes life hell for us RPers who are trying to get certain items. My BH is going to have to deal with the Eternal Championship when she gets to 65, because that is the ONLY place you can get a certain type of leg armour drop, since the other options were level 50 Corellia Drops that never make it to GTN anymore, thanks to the changes in drops.

[Monumenta]

And it's always like this leading up to a new expac where fundamental changes are being made to the game feature set and mechanics.

 

I agree but,

 

maybe every expac shouldn't have 'fundamental changes being made to the game feature set and mechanics'

 

maybe they should just focus on new content with expacs

 

then maybe it wouldn't be 'always like this leading up to a new expac'

Edited October 18, 2016 by Monumenta

[AlienEyeTX]

1) it will change nothing. 5.0 releases in about 6 weeks, it's already gone "gold" and they are just fine tuning at this point and testing to see if they need to pull anything that is really problematic from the release plan.

 

2) If RNG is really a problem after release, they will make adjustments.. just like they always do.

 

3) RNG is not bad per se.. it just introduces unpredictability into the game. When did unpredictability of drops in an MMO become evil?

 

It's great for the cosmetic stuff. Just like always. But this really puts too much strain on people who aren't interested in doing "just anything" in the game. It removes focus. It is haphazard and it will, sadly work out great for people who don't care and/or have loads of time to game every day. As for the rest of us: "We seem to be made to suffer. It's our lot in life."

[Andryah]

No I don't remember EC, I'm a pvp'er. To be genuinely honest...I can't work out whether your post suggests you believe the way they do focus groups is working or not.

 

Any focus groups they've been doing to date....well....the past couple of years doesn't say much for them now does it?

 

What I am saying is that player focus groups =/= a silver bullet for perfection for players.

 

I've run significant business facing customers that did use focus groups and I can assure you they are very much a sharp two edged sword that requires other validation channels before accepting and acting upon. You can just as easily cut your own arm off as you try to make the perfect tenderloin filets for customer consumption.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Andryah

[Phyreblade]

1) it will change nothing. 5.0 releases in about 6 weeks, it's already gone "gold" and they are just fine tuning at this point and testing to see if they need to pull anything that is really problematic from the release plan.

 

2) If RNG is really a problem after release, they will make adjustments.. just like they always do.

 

3) RNG is not bad per se.. it just introduces unpredictability into the game. When did unpredictability of drops in an MMO become evil?

 

This.

 

I don't know enough to make a reasonable judgement about how the system is going to work, so watching everyone freak out, to me, is shrug-worthy. All I hear is, "I hate change, any change and all change!" There simply isn't enough data there, for me personally to say Yea or Nay just yet.

 

And frankly, if it doesn't "work" they will only adjust it till it does. I was kind of bewildered by the changes to the cartel boxes, for instance. As in, "why are they even changing it?" I sort of feel the same way this time around. But then I remember the headache I get every time someone INSPECTS my character in the warzone and then whines I don't have enough "whatever" on my gear. The notion I no longer have to stress about changing out my gear when I switch from PVE to PVP or vice versa is almost appealing.

 

Hey, maybe I'll start doing more upper-level PVP again! Maybe.

 

But it's different and I am not sure what to expect just yet. So I'm wary but not over-concerned.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Phyreblade

[Jadescythe]

This.

 

I don't know enough to make a reasonable judgement about how the system is going to work, so watching everyone freak out, to me, is shrug-worthy. All I hear is, "I hate change, any change and all change!" There simply isn't enough data there, for me personally to say Yea or Nay just yet.

 

And frankly, if it doesn't "work" they will only adjust it till it does. I was kind of bewildered by the changes to the cartel boxes, for instance. As in, "why are they even changing it?" I sort of feel the same way this time around. But then I remember the headache I get every time someone INSPECTS my character in the warzone and then whines I don't have enough "whatever" on my gear. The notion I no longer have to stress about changing out my gear when I switch from PVE to PVP or vice versa is almost appealing.

 

But it's different and I am not sure what to expect just yet. So I'm wary but not over-concerned.

 

The red part of your quote clearly indicates you don't understand the issue. I've seen very few people freaking out because "zomg, muh pvp gears". 100%, having to get lucky to get the gear you need is terrible for the game. There is no saving grace and there is no change they can make for the people being vocal to accept it other than NOT making it RNG based.

[UmbralSpirit]

People said the game would never go F2P either.

 

People also said SWTOR would blow WoW out of the water.

[CorellianWannabe]

 

3) RNG is not bad per se.. it just introduces unpredictability into the game. When did unpredictability of drops in an MMO become evil?

 

Apparently when it's a slot machine.

Edited October 18, 2016 by CorellianWannabe

[IanArgent]

What I am saying is that player focus groups =/= a silver bullet for perfection for players.

 

I've run significant business facing customers that did use focus groups and I can assure you they are very much a sharp two edged sword that requires other validation channels before accepting and acting upon. You can just as easily cut your own arm off as you try to make the perfect tenderloin filets for customer consumption.

 

Focus groups almost certainly led to Rav and ToS being overtuned at the entry level. They very nearly led to TEC being overtuned, since the vast majority of people who can be bothered to set up to use the PTS are the hard core fans, who are going to have a higher skill level than the casual off the street.

[Shwarzchild]

Focus groups almost certainly led to Rav and ToS being overtuned at the entry level. They very nearly led to TEC being overtuned, since the vast majority of people who can be bothered to set up to use the PTS are the hard core fans, who are going to have a higher skill level than the casual off the street.

 

This is absolutely false. They were told by the same hard core players you are trying to lay blame on that ravagers and temple of sacrifice were over tuned. They chose to ignore the feedback.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Shwarzchild

[Icykill_]

If we get early access in just over one months time, do you honestly think they'll go and tweak things now? It is set already.

 

No, I don't think they could or really can tweak anything before then... I'd just put back the launch.. I'd grow some balls and publically say we are delaying the release because we have heard your feed back.. or some such stuff.. I'm not into public relations, but I am a business owner and while my clients may not be happy if I cant deliver on time, they prefer that to an inferior product or service.

Just look at what's happened to Samsung Galaxy.. they've completely pulled the product because of bad quality control... if they had done more testing, had better systems in place, then that problem wouldn't have gotten out of control.. but at least they grew some balls and are recalling the galaxy and cancelling the model, instead of trying to sweep it under the carpet or hiding in their offices...

Bioware have an opportunity here to stop the problem before it happens. I would gladly wait another month or two for them to get it right, instead of them releasing a product that is going to make me stop playing.

Maybe if they weren't so secretive all the time and actually got some of the community involved for them to look at and test some of the "hidden" features that Bio always like to drop as a "surprise", then maybe they would know sooner how the community is going to react.

I don't know what more is to come, have we blown it out of proportion or are we all trying to stop the dam of excrement from breaking all over us... it's easier to fix the dam before it breaks

[Rolodome]

I don't dislike the entire system, but the RNG part seems to be agreed upon to be a bad idea by the majority of posters so far. That is, what the RNG part appears to be with the details we have.

[Soljin]

I'm pretty excited about everything EXCEPT RnG loot boxes...They seriously need to lose the RnG system completely.

[Simbr]

1) it will change nothing. 5.0 releases in about 6 weeks, it's already gone "gold" and they are just fine tuning at this point and testing to see if they need to pull anything that is really problematic from the release plan.

 

2) If RNG is really a problem after release, they will make adjustments.. just like they always do.

 

3) RNG is not bad per se.. it just introduces unpredictability into the game. When did unpredictability of drops in an MMO become evil?

 

On your first point, believe me this will be problematic!

 

I agree with your second point, but by then it may already be too late.

 

Regarding your question. I guess you didn't play this game at launch, if you did you wouldn't ask the question. The RNG was terrible and one of the main reasons most of the player base quit after experiencing endgame. I and many others will quit if they re-introduce RNG again.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Simbr

[Kaze-Yama]

1) it will change nothing. 5.0 releases in about 6 weeks, it's already gone "gold" and they are just fine tuning at this point and testing to see if they need to pull anything that is really problematic from the release plan.

 

2) If RNG is really a problem after release, they will make adjustments.. just like they always do.

 

3) RNG is not bad per se.. it just introduces unpredictability into the game. When did unpredictability of drops in an MMO become evil?

 

The thing is they already know RNG is a problem because they removed it from the game for the crystal and token system now they are going back to something that doesn't work. They can make changes easily within 6 weeks or start working on a patch to fix it now rather than having months of a broken system only for it to get fixed in 5.5 or something. There are plenty of simple changes that I don't think take months of work to fix. People have thought up dozens of ways to improve upon the system surely if Bioware just listened they could find a solution that works from both a developer and player standpoint. Even a small change where every 10 ranks or something you can choose any gear you want would be a much welcome change.

 

Also they conveniently left out tons of info such as how many command points it takes to level, how much do you get per mission type, how much do you get for disintegrating gear etc. If you get 1 rank per flashpoint and multiple ranks per operation it won't be so bad but I highly doubt it will be that simple and I imagine disintegrating gear is going to give you like 1/10 of a rank or something stupid.

[Andryah]

Regarding your question. I guess you didn't play this game at launch, if you did you wouldn't ask the question. The RNG was terrible and one of the main reasons most of the player base quit after experiencing endgame. I and many others will quit if they re-introduce RNG again.

 

I did play this game at launch. I have also played many MMO over the last 17 years.

 

RNG is in fact at play in almost everything you do in an MMO.. from combat, to loot drops, to loot rolls, to crafting crits, to crew missions, etc. etc. etc. If you cannot stand RNG... best not to play MMOs.

[UmbralSpirit]

Apparently when it's a slot machine.

 

Actually, your chances with a slot machine are higher than your average droprates in MMO's.

[Rolodome]

Maybe if they weren't so secretive all the time and actually got some of the community involved for them to look at and test some of the "hidden" features that Bio always like to drop as a "surprise", then maybe they would know sooner how the community is going to react.

This part always frustrates me when this kind of stuff happens because the community is responsive and usually vocalizes what they want, along with a number of detailed suggestions, within 24 hours. But because these teams are forced to keep quiet and are locked into tight development tracks, there's typically little they can do about it at that point. I will happily eat my words if they are able to be responsive this time.

 

It would be nice if they could float ideas by us in the concepting stage, but I suppose they are afraid of people taking it as a guarantee that it will be implemented.

 

I remember GW2 used to do a thing (I don't know if they still do it now) where they would set up a special thread on a timetable, where one of the main designer guys would have a conversation with people about a certain type of content, or an idea. There would often be loads of super detailed feedback, ideas, and conversation, and I think they managed to keep it respectful too. It was never a promise of a certain type of content, but a way for the developers to get an idea where peoples' minds are at from the player perspective and hash out what might work or not work for a particular type of content.

[Transcendent]

Bioware have an opportunity here to stop the problem before it happens. I would gladly wait another month or two for them to get it right, instead of them releasing a product that is going to make me stop playing.

Maybe if they weren't so secretive all the time and actually got some of the community involved for them to look at and test some of the "hidden" features that Bio always like to drop as a "surprise", then maybe they would know sooner how the community is going to react.

I don't know what more is to come, have we blown it out of proportion or are we all trying to stop the dam of excrement from breaking all over us... it's easier to fix the dam before it breaks

 

I don't know if the community is blowing it out of proportion, based on the evidence that we have in terms of the generic overview of gearing. I've asked a fair few questions that concern me over in one of the gearing threads (it's a fair list), if BioWare haven't forseen the potential issues then I'll completely agree with you about the changes not being welcome.

 

There is a lot of potential for things to go badly. Personally I'm just viewing this as an extension of removing any and all point to progression in any form of content within the game. 6.0 will likely see the removal of levels and gear and be done with it all.

[Rolodome]

I did play this game at launch. I have also played many MMO over the last 17 years.

 

RNG is in fact at play in almost everything you do in an MMO.. from combat, to loot drops, to loot rolls, to crafting crits, to crew missions, etc. etc. etc. If you cannot stand RNG... best not to play MMOs.

It's not about the existence of RNG, or lack thereof, though that is certainly a part of it that frustrates people. It's the idea that there is NO good alternative path. The strength of token systems and the reason they have been used in a number of games is that if RNG is failing you, you can save up tokens and get what you want through that, so there is always a way to avoid escaping the bad luck trap.

 

In a purely RNG system, there will, statistically speaking, be people who will need far longer to get the things they want than is intended. And why? Because they got bad die rolls, while their buddy gets it all in a week. People are sensitive to fairness and forcing an inherently unfair system with no alternative path is going to breed discontent.

[Simbr]

I did play this game at launch. I have also played many MMO over the last 17 years.

 

RNG is in fact at play in almost everything you do in an MMO.. from combat, to loot drops, to loot rolls, to crafting crits, to crew missions, etc. etc. etc. If you cannot stand RNG... best not to play MMOs.

 

You clearly don't remember launch then. Maybe too much time playing MMO's?!

 

You seem to be the only person keen on RNG for end game gear, but I guess there is always one.

 

Plus SWTOR isn't an MMO it's an SP RP game lol.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Simbr

[IanArgent]

1) it will change nothing. 5.0 releases in about 6 weeks, it's already gone "gold" and they are just fine tuning at this point and testing to see if they need to pull anything that is really problematic from the release plan.

 

2) If RNG is really a problem after release, they will make adjustments.. just like they always do.

 

3) RNG is not bad per se.. it just introduces unpredictability into the game. When did unpredictability of drops in an MMO become evil?

 

Since Eric just posted they're still working on the Relic drops, it's not yet set in stone. Drop Tables are pretty easy to change.

[Nempo]

RNG is not inherently bad. Yet you would think from this new crop of MMOers (read most of this forum) they cannot handle the idea they might actually have to runt he content 4-5 times to get a single drop...THAT is raiding! If you get gear every single time you run, you aren't raiding...you are beating a loot piniata.

...and people wonder why raiding is dying, a little RNG has you scared and running.

 

So what if the box doesn't give you exactly what you want every time? Yeah I've had absolute horrible luck with those alliance crates but they are an additional reward for doing content I love. If you run whatever you enjoy doing (heroics, FPs, PvP, OPs, etc) you will earn credit toward that rank and earn those commander crates alongside whatever you earn doing whatever you do. In other words...a whole lot of crying and whining for an EXTRA reward for things you are doing anyway. The daily bonus is just that...bonus exp, you don't have to do it to rank up...you rank up and earn exp toward it no matter what you do so the whining is really overblown.

 

It isn't a perfect system, but it is also just an aside...in addition to...what you are already earning.