Gearing Changes in Eternal Throne

[wildantics]

G'day Eric,

First post(s) in 5 years... I felt a great disturbance in the force... 0.o

 

A tank in que is often not welcome on tacticals and if a team has more than 2 tanks or healers, I will often decline the group invitation outright. I would guess the same would prove true for heroics or any content that does not require standard tank, healer and 2 DPS composition. So it might be better for a tank to que as DPS for such content.

However, a tank in que for FP often gets instant pops and is quite welcomed and to a lesser degree, the same is true for SM operations.

 

1: Looking at the upper right corner of the Command Overview screen, I wonder if it will still be possible to que as tank/DPS or DPS heals?

 

Likewise, many tanks prefer to play PvP with "skank" gear (mainly DPS gear but tank set bonus) and many operations required one tank to switch to DPS gear for certain bosses. The new CXP system would have to drop 3.5 full sets of gear before a tank can regain the same versatility.

 

2: Will the ability to easily switch gear be improbable due to the way CXP gear is rewarded? eg. If we are que'd as tank, a CXP box will only drop tank gear? Will CXP boxes open into a stash like the DvL boxes to encourage gearing our DvL alts?

(And yes, even for my own toons, there is no benign answer. Either my tank or my healer will cry and my DPS only toons will properly mock their QQ)

 

It was mentioned that CXP would vary according to how many players are in an operation. Which is good news, as it is often preferred to run EV/KP undermanned to increase the chances of rewards.

Likewise, even full teams running 16 man content were granted extra comms due to the added difficulty to complete such content. (Please say that the HM instance bug is a top priority or already fixed in 5.0 xD)

Similarly, World Bosses. Trapjaw can be done blindfolded but Nightmare Pilgrim is often victorious over fully prepped and voice coordinated guild runs. (Any chance to integrate vehicle quests into achievements and get an in-game mail reward upon completion?)

 

3: Will 16 man and undermanned efforts be rewarded with extra CXP? Will higher difficulty content of the same level be encouraged by the CXP system? eg. Master Level Revan will reward a ton more CXP than Master Level Soa; Veteran Blood Hunt far out CXP's Athiss.

(While the gearing change is quite concerning, I might find some tranquility if challenging content will become more popular due to equally lucrative incentives ^_^ )

 

4: Should we compile a new thread with all Bioware responses to simplify what questions may already be answered and what might need to be reworded or asked at a later time?

 

Many thanks for the replies.

Edited October 20, 2016 by wildantics

[robertthebard]

This. I play mostly dps classes, so imagine my shock when my PT dps gets those 15 tanking bracers in a row, and no armor/head in sight, having to spend millions to get crafted items for minmaxing, because the RNG gods are against you.

 

Screenshot or it didn't happen. Wait, it can't have happened, it's not in game yet. I realize that for the purpose of sensationalism, we have to take the absolute worst case scenarios and run with them as if they are, or will be, daily occurrences, but the fact is, they're not, and, realistically speaking, they're not likely to be. It absolutely could happen, but since none of us have really seen anything but text regarding the crates, it's a bit soon to jump into the doom and gloom.

 

However, in reading your posts, I get the sense that you know exactly how these crates work, so, indulge me and address a couple of my questions:

 

1. How many pieces of gear will be in a crate? Along this line, with the current system of boxes for planetary storyline completion, I have yet to have the two pieces of gear in a box be the same piece, won't these limitations apply to the Command Crates?

 

2. How many crates are we going to be able to pull in a day?

 

3. Since "competent" groups are currently able to run the hardest content, in the gear they currently have, what's going to change?

 

Even on my main, which is mara/sentinel, if I can't get that 6th set bonus which is paramount because of the weaponmaster critical bonus for HM/NiM... That critical bonus increases my dps and it can make the difference between having the dps to kill a boss and wiping on it. And so it is with most dps set bonuses. Heck tanking set bonuses are even more paramount because it means the difference between having the stats for surviving a boss hit and dying with one blow. Healers? It means the difference between being able to heal tanks and dps, and having to let someone die. And believe me HM/NiM ops are NOT forgiving. And it is not just healers or tanks. if dps can't do their part, bosses enrage and it's a wipe. And set bonus does make a difference.

 

Now we get to the crux of the issue. How were these ops being completed before people had the full bonuses? Are you telling me that they weren't being completed? That the content is just so far beyond the capabilities of "competent" groups that they can't finish unless they have all the gear first, and again, back to my query: How did they finish before they got the full set bonus?

Edited October 20, 2016 by robertthebard
Oops, 3 and 4 are basically the same question...

[ChadCloman]

Will you still be able to transfer item modifications between characters by putting it in legacy gear? Specifically level 70 set bonus armoring and other item modifications from the command packs. Edited October 20, 2016 by ChadCloman
clarification

[KnightOfTython]

 

A tank in que is often not welcome on tacticals

 

Well that's why switching roles is very easy to understand for every tank to succeed a Tactical the most efficient way ...

But randoms don't think while playing they expect others to accept questionable roles for specific situations.

 

 

2: Will the ability to easily switch gear be improbable due to the way CXP gear is rewarded? eg. If we are que'd as tank, a CXP box will only drop tank gear?

 

Gear from crates depending on your Advanced Class that's it.

Edited October 20, 2016 by KnightOfTython

[Tanitha]

Now we get to the crux of the issue. How were these ops being completed before people had the full bonuses? Are you telling me that they weren't being completed? That the content is just so far beyond the capabilities of "competent" groups that they can't finish unless they have all the gear first, and again, back to my query: How did they finish before they got the full set bonus?

 

Well, I think there was ONLY KP/EV back then, and I did not play then.

 

But ever since I subbed, just to be considered for a raid team, it's paramount to have at least the first tier set bonus. Otherwise, the raid team will take through EV/KP HM to get you the set bonus.

[Jeweledleah]

Screenshot or it didn't happen. Wait, it can't have happened, it's not in game yet. I realize that for the purpose of sensationalism, we have to take the absolute worst case scenarios and run with them as if they are, or will be, daily occurrences, but the fact is, they're not, and, realistically speaking, they're not likely to be. It absolutely could happen, but since none of us have really seen anything but text regarding the crates, it's a bit soon to jump into the doom and gloom.

 

However, in reading your posts, I get the sense that you know exactly how these crates work, so, indulge me and address a couple of my questions:

 

1. How many pieces of gear will be in a crate? Along this line, with the current system of boxes for planetary storyline completion, I have yet to have the two pieces of gear in a box be the same piece, won't these limitations apply to the Command Crates?

 

2. How many crates are we going to be able to pull in a day?

 

3. Since "competent" groups are currently able to run the hardest content, in the gear they currently have, what's going to change?

 

 

 

Now we get to the crux of the issue. How were these ops being completed before people had the full bonuses? Are you telling me that they weren't being completed? That the content is just so far beyond the capabilities of "competent" groups that they can't finish unless they have all the gear first, and again, back to my query: How did they finish before they got the full set bonus?

 

let me explains things to you.

 

1. things that will change. since ops seem to be design to scale up to max level? aforementioned competent groups have to regear from scratch to run content that they have already geared for before... more than once.

2. yes, those ops were not being completed. that's kinda the point of getting better gear, so that you could go over that wall you were hitting. there's only so much competence can do before sheer math kicks in. its kind of the point of set bonuses, to boost your numbers so that you CAN do aforementioned content.

why do you think only hardcore raiders could compete in that timed Championship challenge? because gear DOES make a difference. its math, plain and simple.

 

we seem to be getting multiple difficulties for repeatable story content. complete with their own rewards and achievements. what do you bet that they are meant to be the solo version of challenging content, that prior to that was ops only? and what do you want to bet that the whole thing with bonuses and increasing levels of gear is to allow people to be able to complete said content?

 

edited to add, last but not least. forgot the whole loot crates and wrong gear. right now from planetary heroics, you at least get to chose whether you want dps box, or tank/healing box (if you are subscriber, because of course let add as many petty restrictions to f2p as possibly) and you STILL often end up with multiple duplicates of the same pieces. I've gone from lvl 8 to lvl 61 without once seeing half the slots drop from those boxes... while hoovering up every planetary heroic while leveling. CG boxes? as currently described, don't even let you chose the spec for which you want the loot, just your advance class. which doubles up already crappy RNG factor.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Jeweledleah

[robertthebard]

Well, I think there was ONLY KP/EV back then, and I did not play then.

 

But ever since I subbed, just to be considered for a raid team, it's paramount to have at least the first tier set bonus. Otherwise, the raid team will take through EV/KP HM to get you the set bonus.

 

I know that that's what we used to do. However, 2 pieces was more than sufficient, which is the first tier, for Ops back then. Nothing required a full set, that just made it a bit easier. However, to read your post, it made it seem like they were required for entry, which is fine, for elitists that already have it, but since burn out is a very real thing with the lack of new Ops for years now, it sure makes it hard, and ironically, it's artificial difficulty, to keep that raid group running if you're expecting everyone to not need to run the content in order to run the content.

[wainot-keel]

I will be interested to hear more on the system as we don't know much....RNG is total garbage any way you shake it but I still want to hear their reasoning for it and why they think the 3rd time is a charm?

 

If broken down items giving you some command experience back is their end all fix then its not enough.

 

The more I t hink about this old gearing system that will be raised from the cemetary of bad ideas the worse it looks

 

So say you endure the long *** awful grind and beat the RNGesus on your character and you're geared.

Then what ? Kinda sucky keep playing that toon since from that point whatever you get is pretty much vendor trash. You can't help an alt (of adifferent AC) with the gear you get.

 

So the system sucks during the process of gearing and sucks even more after you're geared. I mean, first it blows you have a high chance of getting unwanted/unneeded garbage. Then is the certainty of getting garbage.

Brilliant

[Wahala]

 

Well, just when I think I am getting a handle on how I want (need) to play the game we get this New Wonderful Progressive TOTAL Change to everything (well Gear is everything ).

 

Now I will not be able to plan how I want to get / enhance / outfit etc ... My characters ... Instead I will be forced to slog my way through a "New" set of levels (command levels) so that I can roll the dice for gear. It is like I will have to work to gamble on getting the gear I want ... there will be no planning except for which activity I might pursue to get these new "Crates" of random loot. No taking my hard earned crystals (or command points) to the Gear Vendor and choosing what I want!

 

I suppose for credits I might get to choose what I buy, but I foresee huge inflation taking its toll on prices. maybe I can craft stuff like I do now! Heck it is already bad. A craft item (brown stones in a little blue cloud) that I need six of to make my best Mod (which is only 216) is already well over 100,000 creds. Lets see, 9 mods = 56 of this item = 5,600,000 credits just for one chars mods (I have never had 5.6 million credits on one char) ... then there's the 7 or 8 armorings and the 7 enhancements and 2 implants and ears and 2 relics and 1 or 2 hilt/barrels.

 

Well rolling the dice may save me credits (the command points are free .... except for my Sub payment) ,but I won't be able to get geared up till lvl 70 then it will take forever (I am sure the amount of command points per level will be progressive ....More points for each higher level. Sigh .. who thinks up this stuff anyway?

 

I Love this game. However if the game was my wife I would probably have ot take her to the Psychiatrist. What do you guys do there. Are you just bored and feel you have to come up with dramatic changes to wow us (no pun intended). Maybe it is because I am a slower older player that I feel this way and all the hotshots clamoring for more "group" content and PVP.... which you are not going to do yet. The new four man things are just PVE warzones ....or flashpoints in Drag with a new name... oh well ... I should probably just shut up.

 

Perhaps it will all be bright and gay and totally fun to play .....

 

PS: Sorry for the text wall, but things just kept popping up to say .... more are about to pop but worry not I will stop.

[Tanitha]

The more I t hink about this old gearing system that will be raised from the cemetary of bad ideas the worse it looks

 

So say you endure the long *** awful grind and beat the RNGesus on your character and you're geared.

Then what ? Kinda sucky keep playing that toon since from that point whatever you get is pretty much vendor trash. You can't help an alt (of adifferent AC) with the gear you get.

 

So the system sucks during the process of gearing and sucks even more after you're geared. I mean, first it blows you have a high chance of getting unwanted/unneeded garbage. Then is the certainty of getting garbage.

Brilliant

 

At least with the current system, you don't need gear and just play the ops for fun,, you can give it all to someone who is gearing up their first toon or an alt. With the new system, you'll have to disintegrate everything that is of no use to you. Add the fact that it is BoP and we do not know for certain if the armoring will be moddable or if it will be like the DvL armor (which at least is legacy so you can transfer it to an alt). Add to that, it is Advanced Class specific and not discipline specific...

[Deewe]

Out in the press: MMORPG recap on Gear Progression with Galactic command.

[wildantics]

Eric, Cheerio ole chap, long time no see

 

I believe these topics will be addressed by subsequent livestreams but I figured this is still the best place to put them.

 

Hope you can help clarify a few more things

1: PvP CXP is rewarded by medals or matches?

 

I'm trying to think of a way this will not be exploited. If by medals, how could a carnage marauder ever get healing medals? Will classes that easily rack up levels have CXP advantage? eg. A losing jugg could often out-medal a winning healer.

Yet, if by matches, what would discourage players from throwing games? Would that not also greatly increase the rage-quitters or players that would bail on maps that take longer? (Please also duly consider a PvP deserter lockout system similar to Group Finder desertions)

 

CXP - Commendation conversion

2: If we can't earn CXP until 70, that would seem to indicate all old commendations will not be converted into CXP, or might you be considering an exchange vendor we can access once we hit 70? And is there any conversion planned for unused gear tokens?

 

I find that I greatly appreciate my unused myriad of PvP commendations when there is a gear/level increase and when a new toon hits 65. It seems that instant SM raid gear and instant BiS PvP gear would be nearly impossible to quantify by a credit conversion.

 

Cheers Gov'na

[gabigool]

It absolutely could happen

 

I'm not sure why the conversation continues past this point. Isn't this enough to define this system as problematic?

 

Regardless of the "dial spinning" WRT CXP gain, statistically someone is going to get shafted. that it is highly likely to be someone other than you or I does not change the fact that it is fundamentally inequitable.

 

I'm fine with making everything accessible to all, as that is the point. By design, this system throttles people randomly. I can think of ways to do the former without the latter. And that seems better.

 

1. How many pieces of gear will be in a crate? Along this line, with the current system of boxes for planetary storyline completion, I have yet to have the two pieces of gear in a box be the same piece, won't these limitations apply to the Command Crates?

 

I was under the impression it was a single item per box, although I may be misremembering. That said, all that does is slide the scale. the fundamental flaw does not go away until the randomness does.

 

2. How many crates are we going to be able to pull in a day?

I'd like to know this as well, specifically past the threshold where BiS gear becomes available.

 

3. Since "competent" groups are currently able to run the hardest content, in the gear they currently have, what's going to change?

 

Err.... the level cap is rising by 5. Sooooo yeah. It's like saying "competent" groups are killing NM Brontes, Terror or Styrak in 198's.

 

Now we get to the crux of the issue. How were these ops being completed before people had the full bonuses? Are you telling me that they weren't being completed? That the content is just so far beyond the capabilities of "competent" groups that they can't finish unless they have all the gear first, and again, back to my query: How did they finish before they got the full set bonus?

 

Err, the gear they had was quite good. I would wager most groups that killed the above bosses did so in pretty close to min/max gear. Certainly at this tier. In the past they did so with quite a bit of it. Certainly, what they did have was optimized properly.

 

Listen, if you want to say that the last tier of gear made life too easy, I can say you have an argument there. But make no mistake, trying to kill a boss like HM MB when one of your healers is in the lower 5% of RNG luck and is sitting at a 3 piece set bonus and the equivalent of 216 gear is going to be pretty f-ing hard.

 

And the point is, why should it be harder for some groups than others? IMO It should not be.

[Ligurio]

So say you endure the long *** awful grind and beat the RNGesus on your character and you're geared.

Then what ? Kinda sucky keep playing that toon since from that point whatever you get is pretty much vendor trash. You can't help an alt (of adifferent AC) with the gear you get.

You have a point but I can make a suggestion to solve that problem : decay.

Mods decaying so after some times it becomes useless and you have to find another one in a crate. That way you wouldn't have to fear finding useless gear after some times.

[Soljin]

Out in the press: MMORPG recap on Gear Progression with Galactic command.

 

I would call that a pretty accurate and fair summary.

[Soljin]

You have a point but I can make a suggestion to solve that problem : decay.

Mods decaying so after some times it becomes useless and you have to find another one in a crate. That way you wouldn't have to fear finding useless gear after some times.

 

Decay is a pretty useful way to keep people motivated. That said it loses value in a game where all top end gear is the same....

 

If they applied RNG to gear stats that would be useful to keep a certain player from becoming or staying too powerful...

 

With SWToR decay would just add another penalty style time sink....with no real upside for players. Systems should benefit both the player base and the developer or you may lose players over it.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Soljin

[TUXs]

Out in the press: MMORPG recap on Gear Progression with Galactic command.

Very good, and fair, article!!! Worth the read.

[robertthebard]

I'm not sure why the conversation continues past this point. Isn't this enough to define this system as problematic?

 

I'll tell you exactly why: Because another thing that absolutely could happen is that you're fully geared in the same amount of time.

 

Regardless of the "dial spinning" WRT CXP gain, statistically someone is going to get shafted. that it is highly likely to be someone other than you or I does not change the fact that it is fundamentally inequitable.

 

I'm fine with making everything accessible to all, as that is the point. By design, this system throttles people randomly. I can think of ways to do the former without the latter. And that seems better.

 

 

 

I was under the impression it was a single item per box, although I may be misremembering. That said, all that does is slide the scale. the fundamental flaw does not go away until the randomness does.

 

I'd like to know this as well, specifically past the threshold where BiS gear becomes available.

 

 

 

Err.... the level cap is rising by 5. Sooooo yeah. It's like saying "competent" groups are killing NM Brontes, Terror or Styrak in 198's.

 

 

 

Err, the gear they had was quite good. I would wager most groups that killed the above bosses did so in pretty close to min/max gear. Certainly at this tier. In the past they did so with quite a bit of it. Certainly, what they did have was optimized properly.

 

Listen, if you want to say that the last tier of gear made life too easy, I can say you have an argument there. But make no mistake, trying to kill a boss like HM MB when one of your healers is in the lower 5% of RNG luck and is sitting at a 3 piece set bonus and the equivalent of 216 gear is going to be pretty f-ing hard.

 

And the point is, why should it be harder for some groups than others? IMO It should not be.

 

I'm going to put this to bed right now:

 

Hey, all you people complaining about the "grind"? Call me when it takes you 4 years to get one piece of gear you need. Because until then, all you're doing is whining about change.

 

Why I say this: In Rappelz, you have a pet system. These pets aren't the deco things that follow you around, swelling your epeen because you have more random junk collected than the next guy, they actually fight alongside you, some better than others. I went after a very specific pet for one of my pet classes. It took me 4 years of farming and taming to finally get one.

 

First, you have to farm the card, which is hard enough, with a 0.01% chance of getting it. Then you have to attempt the tame, which had a slightly better chance of about 1.0%. Don't fail that tame, because if you do, the card is destroyed, and you have to start over. So, you can talk to me about "grind" once you fully understand what it means. Because this system? It's not even close. I farmed the same, and I guess it's closer to a FP, since it was a 4 man "raid" in Aion for 4 months and never got my bow. That's right, 4 months, and never got the one piece of gear I needed. The only place it dropped was that raid, and it was BoP, so you couldn't buy it off the GTN equivalent there. Talk to me about grind when you're 4 months in and don't have your first piece.

 

Guess what, I'm thinking that that's not going to happen here. For one thing, you could potentially pull that gear from any content, and everyone in the content with you will also get a crate, as opposed to only one piece of gear dropping per run, with the only limitation being your rank, and whatever the weekly cap is going to be. But even with this, I'm betting right now that nothing here is going to compare to the definitions I have already provided for "grind".

Edited October 20, 2016 by robertthebard

[IanArgent]

Out in the press: MMORPG recap on Gear Progression with Galactic command.

 

Fair article.

[UmbralSpirit]

You have a point but I can make a suggestion to solve that problem : decay.

Mods decaying so after some times it becomes useless and you have to find another one in a crate. That way you wouldn't have to fear finding useless gear after some times.

 

And don't forget corpse runs! We really need those....ah the wonderful OOooOOoooOoOoo memories.

[Wayshuba]

Out in the press: MMORPG recap on Gear Progression with Galactic command.

 

That is the point, what they are doing is going to completely destroy raiding and PvP. Maybe that is the intent, but there already is a standard for gearing that works well and fair for players in the game.

 

Here why it will destroy both:

 

Raiding - Today, you frequently end up with new players who want to raid who are "behind" in gear to play harder content with their guildmates. So, the frequent approach, is to take them through some raids and let them get the majority (or even all) the gear drops. 2-3 raid later, they are caught up with their guildmates. With the CxP system, now those players will have to grind through a minimum of 14 levels (if BW is smart enough to eliminate the RNG) or if they keep the RNG you may have to wait for those players to have made it through 25-30 levels. Result - Raiding is going to die for lack of players to raid with.

 

PvP - So we eliminate PvP only gear. New gear will range from 228/236/240/244. So we have two problems - 1.) How lucky someone has got with RNG to gather set bonuses and 2.) major gear differences between 228 to 244 which will be dependent on how many command levels someone has burned through. Even worse, you can't start working on these until Level 70. Today, you can grind with low level toons and have enough comms to get a full set of 208 to compete in Level 65 matches. Now that is completely out the window with PvP. In addition, newer players will face the same problem newer raiders do - getting caught up to those that have already went through many CxP levels since no one can grind those levels until level 70. Think about this even six months from now, someone who has got through 100 Command levels in full set gear of 244 is going to be in a match with someone who just got to level 70 and might be in 228 non-set gear. So is the answer for someone to just do PvE until they can catch up in the power curve in Level 70 PvP? Net result - PvP is going to become a complete and utter mess.

 

So, if the goal is to finally kill PvP and Ops so you don't have to produce anymore - then this system is great. If that is not the case, I hope you are ready to deal with either a massive flurry of anger or big decline in player base. This thing does not appear to have been thought through at all. It seems the only objective was to get more people to sub by gating end game content, but that won't matter if no one is playing the end game content anymore - will it.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Wayshuba

[aghori_Jedi]

out in the press: mmorpg recap on gear progression with galactic command.

this this and this !

[KayCJones]

What I would like to know is what will happen to all the pvp comms and crystals that are on each toon and weather I should spend them all up before launch

[OneHit]

How about not?

[myrdinn]

The more I think about it, and WAG some numbers, the more I think it will NOT kill raiding.

 

Crafting will fill-in the blanks pretty quickly, and if the crafted pieces aren't tied in Command Level to use them, then grinding the Command Levels becomes fairly mute... jumping a person to "not quite perfect, but usable" comes down to "do we have the parts in the guildbank."

 

Now, getting them the bonuses/etc would be a grind, but we've already been told Ops will be the fastest means to both grind the levels and to get the drops, so... more excuse to get more people trying for the silver and gold rings that way.

 

In short, saying raiding is doomed maybe pushing the point a bit too much; overall gearscore-achievement rates might be higher under this system, depending on drop and crafting rates.

---Which is probably why crafting isn't one of the activities you can do to earn Command XP.