Trying to understand hate of level sync

[perryross]

I know there are many forum posts already about the love/hate towards level sync but all the hate towards level sync I've seen so far have pretty much boiled down to these points below and to be honest they seem negligible compared to the positives level sync brings. I am also a relatively new player so if i am wrong about anything please correct me. I also will give my reasoning on why I think the reasons players hate level sync aren't logical when it comes to bettering the game itself

 

1) "I can't solo world bosses anymore now I am going to quit"

 

2) "I can't go back to this planet and one hit everything and go god mode I am going to quit"

 

3) "I was doing a level 20 Heroic and died even though I'm level 50, I should be obliterating everything just by looking at them."

 

4) "I want to be able to turn level sync off so I can do the above"

 

Reason 1 - World bosses in many games are designed to be group content and not be able to be soloed so level sync accomplishes this and I feel like this is a positive

 

Reason 2 - I realize this may be fun to do when a person is bored with the game or whatever, but honestly this reason is negligible when it comes to proving that level sync has "ruined" the game. I get it your a level 65 jedi knight that defeated a certain someone, no spoilers, and can't one hit everything but that's the point. Level sync makes all content relevant again and not a complete face roll even though your OP companion makes it that way which leads to my next point.

 

Reason 3 - If you are dying you are not doing something right. Companions are so OP that it is almost impossible to die now.

 

Reason 4 - This point I can actually see being implemented into the game and is the most reasonable argument I have seen so far. I think it would be nice to see players have the option to turn sync off if they want to, but I just don't see it happening. I would like to hear feed back though from other players about ways that this option could be implemented into the game because I just can't see them adding this option without completely getting rid of level sync which I think won't happen.

 

Again I want to say that I am quite new at the game and just reflecting from what I have read on the forums, i hope we can get a discussion going about this topic (:

Edited August 18, 2016 by perryross

[Medakon]

You forgott the main reason and most important thing, operation content sync.

 

There are operations named Karagga’s Palace, and Eternity Vault. These are some of the first raid content ever released to the game, and is very easy to clear, can almost come naked and still beat hardmode diffculity.

 

So what is the issue? Every operation was scaled to lvl 65, even these 2.

 

You ask: "So what? gives people a chance to do old content again"

 

Then I will tell you what, every operation currently in game drops the same loot.

 

So what people do, they go here, gets the best gear ingame without an effort. Then ignore every other raid ingame. The difficulty of these 2 raid dosnt even come near the difficulity of later operation content like Temple of Sacrefice, or the Ravanger. But since it still drop same gear level because of scale system, people ignore the hard stuff.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Medakon

[Sundown]

Well, I basically have two reasons to not really like Level-Sync: final bosses are a joke (because those fights usually take place on lower level planets and bosses get toned down), completely ruining the experience.

 

And getting aggroed by lowbie mobs, which is more of a nuisance.

 

Nothing really game-breaking though, I just don't like level-sync generally switched on for those reasons (plus a couple of ones that are more a matter of taste).

 

And there's obviously advantages to it as well, so...

Edited August 18, 2016 by Sundown

[KyaniteD]

It's not hate and I'm not gonna quit over it, but it could have been implemented better.

 

• One of the problems is the final class bosses on lower level planets. That's so terribly anti-climactic and stupid. While some classes face their final boss in a level 50 instance, Sith Warrior and Sith Inquisitor fight level 12 bosses to prove they're the most powerful Sith.
  
• It's sync'd by planet, planet-wide. On some planets. mobs still have a level range greater than 6, so even sync'd you don't get kill XP.
  
• There seems to be a problem with the level difference in groups where sometimes the lower level doesn't gain kill XP.
  
• The 1-50 flashpoints could have been revived with a level sync down to the FPs level, while still rewarding character-level appropriate loot, instead of bolstering everything and everyone to 65. Instead we have people entering FPs lacking basic skills the FP bosses were built for.
  
• It's mildly annoying and tedious to go mats farming and having to deal with the mobs at every second node. Mats farming in itself is already boring and tedious, but when you're level 65 and still have to fight 4 level 22 sandpeople over a phobium barrel that's just ridiculous and time consuming.
  
• Traveling to places to pick something up or get something done (mini games like pets, mounts, seeker droid, macro binoculars. datacrons etc.) and be shot down, pushed back stunned etc. every couple feet. That's something that doesn't endear level sync to players or make the mini games more attractive.
  

[Halinalle]

The 1-50 flashpoints could have been revived with a level sync down to the FPs level, while still rewarding character-level appropriate loot, instead of bolstering everything and everyone to 65. Instead we have people entering FPs lacking basic skills the FP bosses were built for.

 

If it worked like that (in fact solo mode works exactly like that) you would get level 65s there that would one shot every weak/standard enemy in Esseles/BT/Hammer Station. I did Taral V a lont time ago at 65 in solo mode and trash was mostly me doing this:

Forcequake -> TK Wave -> pull next group.

Esseles at 65 in solo mode for Sage is just Forcequake spam: Forcequake -> pull next group with Forcequake etc.

You need other abilities only for bosses. Without droid, of course.

 

Also if the bug is still there level 50 character would not get XP from Athiss for example.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Halinalle

[Transcendent]

It's not hate and I'm not gonna quit over it, but it could have been implemented better.

 

• The 1-50 flashpoints could have been revived with a level sync down to the FPs level, while still rewarding character-level appropriate loot, instead of bolstering everything and everyone to 65. Instead we have people entering FPs lacking basic skills the FP bosses were built for.
  

 

This definitely needs looking at.

 

Also, I've not seen any good reason for level sync. We didn't need it before, and the only reason I can see for level sync is to increase the tedium while running regurgitated content like Heroics. As for the world bosses arguement, they could have simply instanced them, job would have been done if they wanted to make those relevant.

 

Level sync as an opt in? Wouldn't have taken issue with that, because players could have helped others through content and they could still have gained XP for doing that content. Everything else I just see as a way to increase tedium, because that's all it really does.

[Talchia]

Some Classes end their storyline on the starter planet, which means new player will never experience the epic fight I had because they faceroll them with just a few hits. Not to mention the Makeb stuff on planets

[SteveTheCynic]

• Traveling to places to pick something up or get something done (mini games like pets, mounts, seeker droid, macro binoculars. datacrons etc.) and be shot down, pushed back stunned etc. every couple feet. That's something that doesn't endear level sync to players or make the mini games more attractive.
  

I don't understand this complaint. I really, really don't understand it. The described phenomena just plain do not happen to me. (OK, I've had minor issues on Yavin 4, but there I am clipped to level 62, so I'm nearly the same level as I would be without level sync.)

 

Maybe it's because I bothered to learn mob-weaving back when I was levelling during 2.X and early 3.X on a Preferred account, when I had crap gear and a poor skill build. To travel around the world, I learned to "run between the raindrops", that is, zig-zag between the groups of foes so I could choose when and what to fight.

 

Maybe, instead, it's because even if I don't bother with that, and just ride straight through them, they take pot-shots at me as I fly away, and I don't get shot off my mount.

[lilathrone]

[*]One of the problems is the final class bosses on lower level planets. That's so terribly anti-climactic and stupid. While some classes face their final boss in a level 50 instance, Sith Warrior and Sith Inquisitor fight level 12 bosses to prove they're the most powerful Sith.

 

Yes, this!

 

Before 4.0 unfortunately I didn't get to try SW or SI last bosses, I just made a Warrior like a month ago, and a final boss, which was one of the hardest as I heard back then took me ~4-5 secs to defeat in both phases, literally I couldn't even finish one rotation.

 

Edit: Oh and I'm playing with passive companions, so with a dps companion it would have been probably like 1-2 secs.

Edited August 18, 2016 by lilathrone

[LyraineAlei]

If it worked like that (in fact solo mode works exactly like that) you would get level 65s there that would one shot every weak/standard enemy in Esseles/BT/Hammer Station. I did Taral V a lont time ago at 65 in solo mode and trash was mostly me doing this:

Forcequake -> TK Wave -> pull next group.

Esseles at 65 in solo mode for Sage is just Forcequake spam: Forcequake -> pull next group with Forcequake etc.

You need other abilities only for bosses. Without droid, of course.

 

Also if the bug is still there level 50 character would not get XP from Athiss for example.

 

If you were sync'd down in an FP, it would be as challenging wandering on a planet of that range, but if the sync down down also place a "Must be at about such-and-such level to be able to queue" type thing, level 20 lowbies won't find themselves on FPs originally designed for four people at level 48 with a larger ability pool. The level 48 FP would have a thing for say, "Be Level 45+ to be able to queue for this one" sort of like how Eseless/Black Talon have a thing about being under some level or another to run them in tacticals.

 

And if you're running Solo, of course it's an easy walk through. Level Sync should almost not even matter for Solo Mode, IMO because the droid can easily help you wipe out a group with one or two shots already. Or if an FP group would sync down to the lowest level party member's level, it would add a little difficulty for those difficulty junkies.

 

Planet-wise, with level sync, I'm pretty fine with it. Mostly it's the mobs jumping me when I'm doing stuff, but three years of playing's given me time to memorize most of the maps or the mob paths. But I don't really hate level sync, personally so I can't offer a very good reason for the dislike. It makes leveling easier than it already was so people don't have to work as hard to reach level 65 and jump into all that stuff...

[SteveTheCynic]

If it worked like that (in fact solo mode works exactly like that) you would get level 65s there that would one shot every weak/standard enemy in Esseles/BT/Hammer Station.

Back in the day, not long before 4.0 came out, in fact, I took my level 60 Gunnery Commando with maxed-affection Elara and nobody else round HM Esseles. It *was* funny, but not particularly challenging.

[SerraShar]

1- Level Sync isn't a bad thing . But they added it after a long time without (a) explaining the why (b) they also nerfed everything and keep in mind the game was never HARD to begin with . © now with Level sync , peoples don't even need to gear and just run to the end of the story (wich I'm assuming was why the they did all of this so peoples play their precious Kotfe again and again) .

 

Now you may ask what's wrong with nerf ? well some peoples like to actually use their brain defeating an ennemy .

 

What's wrong with not having to gear ? it encourage lazyness for one . peoples don't have to learn their class , and gears and leveling actually gave this game a bit of a rhytme . You know you had to gear up good before facing the final Boss . Now you just enter the Instance , Stab him once and he keel over .

 

2- While I agree that World Boss were always mean as a Group activity , the Level Sync did nothing to encourage peoples to do them . If anything now , you won't find any Group to do them . So yeah it actually destroyed an activity instead of Boosting it .

 

2) "I can't go back to this planet and one hit everything and go god mode I am going to quit"

 

I actually had this nice tradition once I reached a certain Level , to go back into a heroic that gave me and the group I was in a hard time and kick the crap of the Mobs there . Now it's pointless.....

 

P.S: Here what I believe would make the Level Synce less painful (since I doubt it can have a Toggle on and off) .

1) Undo the damn nerf , make mobs a bit more with some meat to punch .

2) bring back the damn Heroic old rewards (Maybe even add a way for peoples to do Heroic+4 WITHOUT Taking away Heroic+2 solo , cose I still don't miss yelling for hours in Genchat to find a group just for them to bail half way) .

3) Give us better drop . Damn most mobs drop crap .

Edited August 18, 2016 by SerraShar

[KyaniteD]

I don't understand this complaint. I really, really don't understand it. The described phenomena just plain do not happen to me. (OK, I've had minor issues on Yavin 4, but there I am clipped to level 62, so I'm nearly the same level as I would be without level sync.)

 

I've been playing continuously since early access and I know how to avoid mobs. But there are areas where it simply not possible because they're standing too close to the objectives or the path that needs to be taken.

 

I'm not saying it's a problem. It's just annoying and at times frustrating. Temporarily, momentarily, but still, it's a negative feeling/experience associated with level sync compared to how it used to be.

 

If it worked like that (in fact solo mode works exactly like that) you would get level 65s there that would one shot every weak/standard enemy in Esseles/BT/Hammer Station. I did Taral V a lont time ago at 65 in solo mode and trash was mostly me doing this:

Forcequake -> TK Wave -> pull next group.

Esseles at 65 in solo mode for Sage is just Forcequake spam: Forcequake -> pull next group with Forcequake etc.

You need other abilities only for bosses. Without droid, of course.

 

That, however is an issue that exists with the current syncing and bolstering, too: available skills and abilities need to be taken into account. Of course, a level 65 down-sync'd to level 20 with a full set of abilities is more powerful than a native level 20 with limited abilities. (Or a level 50 down-sync'd to level 12 for the final class boss. That boss may be challenging to a native level 12, but certainly isn't to a level 50 sync'd to 12, who could do it naked and bare-handed.)

 

Ignoring available abilities and the effects of tertiary stats is a mistake in both directions.

 

That's where it starts to become intricate and actual work, and that work not being done reveals it as something not done to benefit players but devs, like so many other things done to simply maintenance.

Edited August 18, 2016 by KyaniteD

[Gokkus]

Yes, this!

 

Before 4.0 unfortunately I didn't get to try SW or SI last bosses, I just made a Warrior like a month ago, and a final boss, which was one of the hardest as I heard back then took me ~4-5 secs to defeat in both phases, literally I couldn't even finish one rotation.

 

Edit: Oh and I'm playing with passive companions, so with a dps companion it would have been probably like 1-2 secs.

 

Exactly! This is the only downside I have personally experienced with level sync.

 

Stupid thing is...its in an instance so it is very much possible for you to be 50-ish and for you opponent to be too. Yes it requires some coding but it is so much worth it.

[SteveTheCynic]

I've been playing continuously since early access and I know how to avoid mobs. But there are areas where it simply not possible because they're standing too close to the objectives or the path that needs to be taken.

 

I'm not saying it's a problem. It's just annoying and at times frustrating. Temporarily, momentarily, but still, it's a negative feeling/experience associated with level sync compared to how it used to be.

Sure, and in the cases of having to fly a speeder through a narrow gap occupied by a group of mobs, they *still* don't shoot me off my mount. (Exception: it does happen on some very specific mounts, and Rocket Boost is awful for that. The answer to that is "use a different mount, then".)

 

So that leaves the case where the mobs are actually standing on or near the objective, and frankly in that case, one should expect to fight them.

[Andryah]

Sure, and in the cases of having to fly a speeder through a narrow gap occupied by a group of mobs, they *still* don't shoot me off my mount. (Exception: it does happen on some very specific mounts, and Rocket Boost is awful for that. The answer to that is "use a different mount, then".)

 

So that leaves the case where the mobs are actually standing on or near the objective, and frankly in that case, one should expect to fight them.

 

^^ Exactly.

 

Simply use a mount with "excellent protection" and you will never get knocked off unless you get stuck on terrain and get swarmed. Even then.. more then likely you just take some damage and still don't get knocked off.

 

Separately.....

 

Honestly.... I really don't get the heavy grudge some players direct at the studio over this change. It was overall a positive change for all players in my view, particularly newer players who are working to catch up with 4 year veterans. Sure you don't get to solo world bosses any more... but hey.. they were never intended to be soloed and they nerfed loot drops on bosses and champions on lower level planets if they were gray to you.

 

MMOs change over time folks. If you can't adapt without having a meltdown, then MMOs probably are not the best game to play.

[Halinalle]

Knocking off mount happens very rarely if you just keep moving forward. There's only few places in this game where that happens at 100% certainty.

 

As it turns out getting knocked off on Hoth for example is quite challenging:

[Vember]

Personally, I love level sync. No hate whatsoever.

 

Solo play hasn't been challenging since early 2012, long before level sync.

[KyaniteD]

Honestly.... I really don't get the heavy grudge some players direct at the studio over this change. It was overall a positive change for all players in my view, particularly newer players who are working to catch up with 4 year veterans.

 

I quite honestly fail to see the great benefits just like I don't think it's enough of a problem to hate the devs or quit the game over.

 

I see how there could be benefits, but it seems to me like they deliberately avoided them, resp. didn't think it through to the end. Even some of those who were initially excited about it when it was announced are disappointed about the way it was realized.

Edited August 18, 2016 by KyaniteD

[Piepyr]

In a game that is designed to have character progression through levels and gear, level sync is absurd. You have two conflicting core features going on here. You don't need levels if it doesn't matter. You don't need gear if it doesn't matter.

 

Level syncing is simply a way to cut resources. That is it. Bottom line. You can dress it up and parade it around any way you like but its only purpose is a recycle bin. Devs don't need to create new dungeons or areas or raids or whatever. Just reuse the old ****.

 

The way Rift, WoW, and other MMO's did it for years was to release content and areas throughout an expansion. And then when a new expansion rolled out you had all new areas and dungeons and raids. You had new continents to explore and new monsters to conquer - new gear to get, levels added to your professions and cool things to make. I don't know ANYONE who was bored during The Burning Crusade, I certainly wasn't. There was a ton of content, and you didn't have to go back to Teldrassil or the Barrens to do it.

 

Wrath was even busier with 12 million people running around happily playing that game whenever they could. I never had enough time to do everything I wanted. Not only was there a steady stream of new raids and dungeons but new dailies and areas too, like the Argent Tourney. There was always new mounts and new gear to get. And again, you didn't have to go back to Teldrassil or the Barrens to run the same dungeon you ran at level 20.

 

When I was still kind of a noobie in BC I took my level 50 to a lower level area to help a friend. When I got there, a big meanie called Stitches was roaming up and down Duskwood. Stitches had owned my toon several times while leveling through that area but now at level 50 I killed him easily. I remember how amazing that felt. I realized I had gotten stronger. I had progressed and I could see that. It was obvious. And it was awesome.

 

Should I be able to one shot low level mobs? Hell YES I should. I'm a level 65 ffs. Does that or doesn't that mean anything? Plinking away at a low level mob, or worse yet, having a level 30 "boss" kill you is totally ridiculous. Character progression is a core philosophy behind MMO's and if a level 30 can face roll over your level 65, why have levels at all? It doesn't even make sense.

 

And by the way, GW2 is a horrible example to bring to the table as a game that has successfully implemented level sync. No one plays that game for its PVE. In fact they've revamped PVE several times, including adding the trinity, hoping people would start playing the content. But no one does because it sucks. You either PvP in GW2 or you ****.

 

When I see posters writing tomes about how this game needs more content, I applaud them. Because it does. Badly. But then I see a few of those same posters white knighting level sync as the greatest thing since indoor plumbing. And all because, omg, you just want to one shot a boss or you're too stupid to ride through ten bazillion mobs stacked on top of each other between two canyon walls - when the point is, we shouldn't even have to be doing content there.

 

We're not going to get acceptable new content with level sync. New stuff is going to be minimal because we still have all that other synced content to do. I mean, look at Star Fortress - one FP dressed up as many.

 

I recently stopped playing for awhile. I just couldn't take it anymore. If I do quit for good it will be because of the cheesy level sync mechanic. Yep. That and I want my original companions back and talking to me. But that's a subject for another thread.

[Halinalle]

I quite honestly fail to see the great benefits just like I don't think it's enough of a problem to hate the devs or quit the game over.

 

I see how there could be benefits, but it seems to me like they deliberately avoided them, resp. didn't think it through to the end. Even some of those who were initially excited about it when it was announced are disappointed about the way it was realized.

 

On/Off switch just doesn't happen. Either it on or off for everyone.

 

World bosses. You have group forming to kill WB, lone lvl65 comes in and starts attacking the WB. Group has only two choices: either wait for respawn (very long btw, you think tactical queues are long?) or try to find WB in second instance (most planets only have one instance especially on lower population servers).

 

The way Rift, WoW, and other MMO's did it for years was to release content and areas throughout an expansion.

 

And all old content became obsolete. No one would do it ever. At least Blizzard added timewalking so doing old content at higher level is still possible. Just like what happened in 3.0. If you wanted to do EV players only told you to "solo it". Level 50 HMs? "Solot it!".

Edited August 18, 2016 by Halinalle

[Warrgames]

 

World bosses. You have group forming to kill WB, lone lvl65 comes in and starts attacking the WB. Group has only two choices: either wait for respawn (very long) or try to find WB in second instance (most planets only have one instance especially on lower population servers).

 

Stupidest argument ever for level sync. There is no difference if a max level person kills it or a guild group kills it. Other groups have to do the same things wait or find another instance. Prior to level stink, I had no issue finding WB up outside of the conquest ones and when I go to conquest one I run into a guild group there.

 

All you are doing is making up some BS thing that level sync fixes when in reality it does NOTHING to solve the issue.

[Halinalle]

Prior to level stink, I had no issue finding WB up outside of the conquest ones and when I go to conquest one I run into a guild group there.

 

Why would that be? I wonder...

Newer players never got group to kill them because it was waste of time for high level players.

Nobody got in groups to kill one because of most players just weren't interested on doing stuff at lower levels (aka race to max level!).

Level 60s were the ones who killed most of the WBs during 3.x because most of them could easily be killed solo.

 

How do I know this? Well, I did it so I have first hand experience. I would rather drink molten lead than do that again.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Halinalle

[Transcendent]

World bosses. You have group forming to kill WB, lone lvl65 comes in and starts attacking the WB. Group has only two choices: either wait for respawn (very long btw, you think tactical queues are long?) or try to find WB in second instance (most planets only have one instance especially on lower population servers).

 

Yeah we had all of these discussions when Level Sync was announced, the simple solution is to instance the world bosses. So your point is pretty moot if level sync was implemented in a fashion that caters to all play styles.

[Jherad]

No real beef with level sync. I just hate the planetary bolster which trivialises your stat choices on sub-lvl-65 planets (essentially screwing anyone who focused on primary stats).

 

Oh, and level sync completely killed Outlaws Den.