I Totally For Realz Speak for the Entire Community When I Say...

[ZanyaCross]

I am so tired of people saying they speak for the "community" (and by extension me), or even the majority, when they make a rambling eight-paragraph long manifesto that demands more of something only 5-10% of the community actually cares about, or have a problem with the story that people are, at worst, pretty evenly split on. Every chapter that comes out I see a flood of people doing this.

 

Look, you want something added to or changed in the game, you don't like the way the story went, you have every right to climb up on a soapbox here and say so. That's part of why the forums exist in the first place, but please stop pretending like you are representative of anyone but yourself.

 

PS: The title is deliberately ironic, lest any geniuses think they've cleverly caught me in some act of blatant hypocrisy.

[Eleonora]

Agreed, but prepare to get flamed.

[LyraineAlei]

-Self righteous post here White Knighting the uh.. "Entire Community" yeah-

[Rolodome]

I mean, it's a fair point, but I'm sure the following conversation has never happened, so there's nothing to be concerned about:

 

Dev 1: Holy **** guys, I just caught wind of a thread from the entire community.

 

Dev 2: We've been looking for organized feedback like that. What does it say?

 

Dev 1: It's some guy's manifesto of desires for the game. He says he speaks for the community.

 

Dev 2: Sounds legit to me. Call a meeting. We're storyboarding this **** ASAP. I always say, don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

 

Dev 1: There was no mention of horses in the guy's post?

 

Dev 2: It's a saying. I didn't mean that...

 

Dev 1: Come to think of it, maybe the game needs horses.

 

Dev 2: Please stop.

 

Dev 1: I'm putting it on the agenda.

 

Dev 2: I'm quitting if you put horses on the agenda. I think I speak for every dev here when I say this game doesn't need horses.

 

Dev 1: Oh.. well, that's good enough for me. No horses then.

[ZanyaCross]

Agreed, but prepare to get flamed.

 

I post about feminist topics on Twitter. I've come to accept the following as my default state online.

 

http://simplebooklet.com/userFiles/a/2/8/8/0/4/9/oKlyP9DUzaKcls1kUtNnBK/XcE9xCiI.jpg

[Transcendent]

Look, you want something added to or changed in the game, you don't like the way the story went, you have every right to climb up on a soapbox here and say so. That's part of why the forums exist in the first place, but please stop pretending like you are representative of anyone but yourself.

 

Ironically though, people who do climb up on their "soapbox" end up getting things in the game changed. Not always for the better I'll add. So I guess they may sometimes indeed "speak for the community" (even if a lot of players disagree with those changes).

 

Anyway this topic wouldn't be complete without the obligatory "You don't speak for me" comment (it's meant ironically! )

[Knockerz]

Hi ZanyaCross!

[TapVallian]

I am so tired of people saying they speak for the "community" (and by extension me), or even the majority, when they make a rambling eight-paragraph long manifesto that demands more of something only 5-10% of the community actually cares about, or have a problem with the story that people are, at worst, pretty evenly split on. Every chapter that comes out I see a flood of people doing this.

 

Look, you want something added to or changed in the game, you don't like the way the story went, you have every right to climb up on a soapbox here and say so. That's part of why the forums exist in the first place, but please stop pretending like you are representative of anyone but yourself.

 

PS: The title is deliberately ironic, lest any geniuses think they've cleverly caught me in some act of blatant hypocrisy.

 

If this was that place with the Like button, I would have totally clicked Like on your post.

[Rankyn]

If this was that place with the Like button, I would have totally clicked Like on your post.

I think I speak for the Entire Community™ when I say I agree with this.

[americanaussie]

I'd like your post too. Just the other day I saw something that said Everyone is here for PVP, not your story so focus on that. Anyone who posted otherwise got a "you're in the minority" reply. People who voice their displeasure loudly are often heard the most making it seem like they're the majority when in actuality, they may not be...they just might be the loudest.

[KyaniteD]

Well, I'm just going to take control of my life, myself and my self-perception and declare myself not part of someone else's community. Solved.

 

May they speak for and about their community all they want.

Edited August 17, 2016 by KyaniteD

[Aowin]

...

 

He's not fooling anyone. He's certainly not fooling BioWare. The moment I saw him demanding more raids and fps with less story, I knew where his thread was going. I think what people need to start realizing is even though they may like particular content, that doesn't mean EVERYBODY likes it.

 

Especially when the content you are asking for is probably something less than 10% of the community is interested in, you really make a fool out of yourself trying to suggest everybody wants it. BioWare has metrics. BioWare knows how many people actually engage in raids, fps, pvp, story, etc.

 

Making a thread suggesting you represent the "community" merely makes an *** out of yourself. Kudos to you for pointing out the hypocrisy of these "community leaders" to those who may not realize it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. They just need to realize their opinion may only represent a vocal minority and not everybody in the game.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Aowin

[lilathrone]

If this was that place with the Like button, I would have totally clicked Like on your post.

 

If this was that place with the Share button, I would have totally clicked Share on her/his post.

[TapVallian]

If this was that place with the Share button, I would have totally clicked Share on her/his post.

I totally would have done that too!

[lilathrone]

Also, believe me BW knows if they are going in a direction the majority don't want. People can write their reason for unsubscribing WHEN they actually unsubscribe. So when BW sees a huge decrease in subscriptions with the same reason for example "there is no new ops!!!" then they will know that what the game needs is new more ops.

I'm sure they are monitoring forum feedback, but the same 10 people raging in every thread won't make them change the direction the game is taking.

[MayhemofChaonus]

We don't claim to speak for you, or even the entire community. We claim to speak for the majority. You are not the majority, and neither are your supporters. And before you deny that I demand proof. I have subforums and subforums filled to overflowing that show that the majority of the community dislikes these things BW is doing, especially the direction the story is going. Those who have alternate points of view and express them are fewer and farther between.

 

So like I said. We don't claim to speak for you when we say: "The majority dislikes this and that" We don't care about you. We're speaking for ourselves, and we just happen to be the largest demographic that voices any opinion at all.

 

It should be noted by anyone who reads this thread that you have only within the past few hours of my posting this made outlandish claims such as that: 99% of the playerbase loves KotFE and would give their left nut for more of it ad infinitum. I paraphrased for the sake of hyperbole but that is the same basic claim you made: that 99% of the playerbase loves KotFE and its only a measly 1% that dislikes it at all. If you truly believe that to be the case than you are obviously a victim of the indoctrination of the Church of BioWare Positivity. As such I would strongly urge you to seek a reality check immediately. If that was exaggeration than you are still claiming that the majority of paying players (as F2P's aren't really considered part of the playerbase, by BW or by paying players, as they don't benefit the game or BW in any sense) absolutely love the new expansion and its only a small group of ugly trolls who live under bridges and eat bugs that dislike it, and that is simply not true.

 

TLDR: We who dislike KotFE never claimed to speak for you or any of your supporters. We claimed to speak for ourselves. Because the evidence that we are the majority speaks for itself. Thus we are the community by majority. That's how democracy works. So get off your soapbox and stop preaching like some high-and-mighty moralist.

 

Also, believe me BW knows if they are going in a direction the majority don't want. People can write their reason for unsubscribing WHEN they actually unsubscribe. So when BW sees a huge decrease in subscriptions with the same reason for example "there is no new ops!!!" then they will know that what the game needs is new more ops.

I'm sure they are monitoring forum feedback, but the same 10 people raging in every thread won't make them change the direction the game is taking.

 

The problem is this:

 

People like us (who dislike KotFE) are like someone in an abusive relationship. When it started out everything was great. We enjoyed everything about the other. We spent hours with them. We loved just being around them and doing things with them. We felt like we were hopelessly in love (I'm not exaggerating here i'm dead serious. There's a reason I've been playing this game for 4 straight years). So when a few small things changed, we pretended we didn't even notice. When they became a little more controlling we humored them because of how we felt toward them. But then things only went downhill from there. They became more controlling, and more aggressive about it. Before we knew it our options were extremely limited, and keeping them happy seemed to be what the relationship was all about.

 

Now we find ourselves in an emotional stranglehold. We're in a position that feels like slavery where we give and give and give into the relationship, only to receive nothing but worse and worse treatment in return. Yet we continue to give. Why? Because we're just like those people in abusive relationships. We truly believe that we love them and that if we stay we can help them. We can change them. (Sounding familiar?) and when people tell us "They're no good for you." and "You're obviously not enjoying this." or "You can't keep doing this to yourself." We feebly protest (more to justify our actions to ourselves than to others): "No it's not like that." or "You don't know them like I do!", and "You just haven't seen the other side of them!". But in the end the "other side" is a big part of what makes us stay. It's those scraps of wonder and happiness from the beginning of the relationship that makes it so hard for us to let go. It's the hope that the relationship can be like that again, even though we know deep down (and would never admit) that it will never be like it was.

 

So we foolishly fight. We fight to try and save what we love. And in the process us giving into the relationship only rewards the abusive behavior and keeps it sustained.

 

TLDR: SWTOR is supported almost wholly by subscribers who dislike what the game has become and want to leave, but can't bring themselves to because they love the SWTOR that no longer exists and are foolishly fighting to bring it back.

Edited August 17, 2016 by MayhemofChaonus

[Aowin]

...

 

They'll look at why folks unsubscribe, but the main data BioWare accumulates is metrics. BioWare can see what kind of content the community is engaging in the most. Every decision BioWare makes is based on what elements of the game are most popular. If we aren't seeing any content for a particular area of the game, it's likely because that feature is only engaged by a minority of the player base.

 

Community feedback is really quite pointless for the most part. Obviously, on the forums you are likely going to hear the vocal minority far more than anyone else. It's why most developers take forums with a grain of salt as most folks on here likely have ulterior motives and would rather critique the game for some hidden agenda.

 

Regardless of how many players may seem to bash KOTFE on the forums, it without a doubt was a huge success for BioWare and it is going to continue that model with KOTET. Those who don't like story can try and fear monger as much as they want, but ultimately what they say has little probative value to BioWare.

[Aowin]

...

 

But here's the deal, you AREN'T THE MAJORITY. For one, the MAJORITY of the community doesn't even get on the official SWTOR forums. Secondly, it is the VOCAL MINORITY who has the greatest motive to clutter the forums with negativity in order to push their own agenda forward. You aren't fooling anyone and you certainly aren't fooling BioWare.

 

Again, BioWare, like every other developer, takes the forums with a grain of salt. BioWare has metrics. They know what people play and what they enjoy the most in the game. They don't need you and your ten friends with multiple accounts crying wolf on the forums to try and change public opinion of KOTFE. That tactic doesn't work and you are wasting your time.

 

The simple truth is KOTFE was a huge success for BioWare and KOTET is evidence enough that the real majority (the folks who don't waste time on the forums) enjoyed the focus on story. You may prefer raiding, fps, group content, etc., but it is clear you are the minority of the player base BioWare is supporting.

 

That may be a frustrating and painful realization for you to recognize, but reality isn't always pretty. Ultimately it's on you if you want to keep on living in a fantasy where you are the "majority." I'd rather just accept the truth and move on to something else if this game doesn't cater to my tastes.

[MayhemofChaonus]

But here's the deal, you AREN'T THE MAJORITY. For one, the MAJORITY of the community doesn't even get on the official SWTOR forums. Secondly, it is the VOCAL MINORITY who has the greatest motive to clutter the forums with negativity in order to push their own agenda forward. You aren't fooling anyone and you certainly aren't fooling BioWare.

 

Again, BioWare, like every other developer, takes the forums with a grain of salt. BioWare has metrics. They know what people play and what they enjoy the most in the game. They don't need you and your ten friends with multiple accounts crying wolf on the forums to try and change public opinion of KOTFE. That tactic doesn't work and you are wasting your time.

 

The simple truth is KOTFE was a huge success for BioWare and KOTET is evidence enough that the real majority (the folks who don't waste time on the forums) enjoyed the focus on story. You may prefer raiding, fps, group content, etc., but it is clear you are the minority of the player base BioWare is supporting.

 

That may be a frustrating and painful realization for you to recognize, but reality isn't always pretty. Ultimately it's on you if you want to keep on living in a fantasy where you are the "majority." I'd rather just accept the truth and move on to something else if this game doesn't cater to my tastes.

 

lol aren't you cute.

 

Yes. We are the majority. And you have no conclusive proof to the contrary.

 

A side note. I hate raiding. I generally avoid group content all together as I hate people. why you ask? This thread is as good of an example as any. I'm a hardcore story player. I came to SWTOR to have a Star Wars experience, and I did right up until the end of vanilla, much to my chagrin.

Edited August 17, 2016 by MayhemofChaonus

[Aowin]

...

 

I have plenty of proof. As I already stated, the majority of the player base does not complain on the SWTOR forums. You are lucky if 10% of the player base ever posts even once on the SWTOR forums. You are no majority. We are honestly being generous even calling you a minority. You are a handful of vocal players who just like to complain and believe it effectuates game development.

 

You are a "hardcore story player" yet you hate KOTFE? That makes sense. You do realize this game has been out for five years? If anyone should be happy BioWare is focusing its efforts back on story, it should be you. If you don't care for raiding, PvP, or fps, I'm not sure what you are complaining about. Virtually all of the folks who "hate" KOTFE are raiders and daily grinders.

 

You seem to be suffering from a deadly case of identity crisis. You are complaining about a game that you claim doesn't cater to you yet the very content BioWare is creating caters to you the most. You are one confused individual.

[lilathrone]

Yes. We are the majority. And you have no conclusive proof to the contrary.

 

You could be an awesome conspiracy theorist.

[Transcendent]

Yes. We are the majority. And you have no conclusive proof to the contrary.

 

That works both ways.

 

How many players do not post on these forums? How many players are free to play or preferred who can't post on these forums? How many players post on other places like /r/swtor etc?

 

Your evidence is anecdotal at best, the only people with empirical evidence to support the decisions made in this game, are the developers. They'll use that evidence to decide the direction of the game, which is why we're now seeing a move in the direction of a story focus.

 

All of this games development requires lead time, from gathering of emperical evidence, to deciding the direction they want to take the game, to getting the supporting budgets / staffing in place, to actually producing the content. This takes time, so any direction BioWare goes in will intrinsically have a certain amount of delay that is inevitable.

 

So you say you are the majority? However clearly that isn't the case, otherwise BioWare wouldn't be taking the game in the direction they are currently.

 

Now if you said that you were not personally happy with the direction BioWare are taking the game, and that some* of the community were also unhappy, then you would be correct.

 

However don't pretend you know what the whole community wants, let alone a majority. You don't, unless of course you work for BioWare and have access to the emperical evidence they have.

 

 

*meaning an undefined range, based on anecdotal evidence.

[Rolodome]

We don't claim to speak for you, or even the entire community. We claim to speak for the majority. You are not the majority, and neither are your supporters. And before you deny that I demand proof. I have subforums and subforums filled to overflowing that show that the majority of the community dislikes these things BW is doing, especially the direction the story is going. Those who have alternate points of view and express them are fewer and farther between.

 

So like I said. We don't claim to speak for you when we say: "The majority dislikes this and that" We don't care about you. We're speaking for ourselves, and we just happen to be the largest demographic that voices any opinion at all.

 

It should be noted by anyone who reads this thread that you have only within the past few hours of my posting this made outlandish claims such as that: 99% of the playerbase loves KotFE and would give their left nut for more of it ad infinitum. I paraphrased for the sake of hyperbole but that is the same basic claim you made: that 99% of the playerbase loves KotFE and its only a measly 1% that dislikes it at all. If you truly believe that to be the case than you are obviously a victim of the indoctrination of the Church of BioWare Positivity. As such I would strongly urge you to seek a reality check immediately. If that was exaggeration than you are still claiming that the majority of paying players (as F2P's aren't really considered part of the playerbase, by BW or by paying players, as they don't benefit the game or BW in any sense) absolutely love the new expansion and its only a small group of ugly trolls who live under bridges and eat bugs that dislike it, and that is simply not true.

 

TLDR: We who dislike KotFE never claimed to speak for you or any of your supporters. We claimed to speak for ourselves. Because the evidence that we are the majority speaks for itself. Thus we are the community by majority. That's how democracy works. So get off your soapbox and stop preaching like some high-and-mighty moralist.

 

 

 

The problem is this:

 

People like us (who dislike KotFE) are like someone in an abusive relationship. When it started out everything was great. We enjoyed everything about the other. We spent hours with them. We loved just being around them and doing things with them. We felt like we were hopelessly in love (I'm not exaggerating here i'm dead serious. There's a reason I've been playing this game for 4 straight years). So when a few small things changed, we pretended we didn't even notice. When they became a little more controlling we humored them because of how we felt toward them. But then things only went downhill from there. They became more controlling, and more aggressive about it. Before we knew it our options were extremely limited, and keeping them happy seemed to be what the relationship was all about.

 

Now we find ourselves in an emotional stranglehold. We're in a position that feels like slavery where we give and give and give into the relationship, only to receive nothing but worse and worse treatment in return. Yet we continue to give. Why? Because we're just like those people in abusive relationships. We truly believe that we love them and that if we stay we can help them. We can change them. (Sounding familiar?) and when people tell us "They're no good for you." and "You're obviously not enjoying this." or "You can't keep doing this to yourself." We feebly protest (more to justify our actions to ourselves than to others): "No it's not like that." or "You don't know them like I do!", and "You just haven't seen the other side of them!". But in the end the "other side" is a big part of what makes us stay. It's those scraps of wonder and happiness from the beginning of the relationship that makes it so hard for us to let go. It's the hope that the relationship can be like that again, even though we know deep down (and would never admit) that it will never be like it was.

 

So we foolishly fight. We fight to try and save what we love. And in the process us giving into the relationship only rewards the abusive behavior and keeps it sustained.

 

TLDR: SWTOR is supported almost wholly by subscribers who dislike what the game has become and want to leave, but can't bring themselves to because they love the SWTOR that no longer exists and are foolishly fighting to bring it back.

Definitely a lot of truth in the relationship analogy. I see it all the time in games.

 

Part of the problem stems from the following:

 

1) Games are plain addictive. It's easy to be hooked, even when you're facing a lot of unpleasantness.

 

2) Games really are often created by passionate developers, even at their worst. People who truly are trying to create and deliver a product backed by creative love. The catch is that on the business end, this isn't necessarily the case at all (and often isn't the case at all). So it's hard to believe that the relationship is bad, when there really is a lot of genuine good being put into it.

 

3) Gambling is even more addicting than games themselves, which is why systems based on the principles of gambling are now so common in online games.

 

4) Even the business people, though it would seem obvious that they are the "villains," are trying to answer to shareholders when it comes down to it. Some of those shareholders can be whiny, self-obsessed rich people. Others are people like you and me, with a small stake in the company, who are trying to eke out a little profit from investing in the right company.

 

5) Setting aside every excuse in the book, the fact is, some companies just aren't as morally forward-thinking as others. For whatever reason... whether it's somebody high up, down low, or anywhere in-between, practices deteriorate or fail to improve on a moralistic level. Customers are mostly treated as wallets, with the occasional effort to give the illusion of caring about them as people even remotely.

 

This is largely where the abuse cycle enters in. One would think that if someone feels this way about a company, the obvious thing to do is to exit stage left. But like any abusive relationship, it's far more complicated than that. In EA's case (speaking very generally, not specifically about SWTOR) they are a dominant and overbearing force in the game market, so it's very difficult to avoid their products and still play new/innovative games. Not to mention the process of eating up classic titles through the acquiring of development studios (sims comes to mind) which further limits peoples' options.

 

Now you're asking them to exit stage left for stuff that they dearly loved, long before it was ever part of the business titan world.

 

People who are able to simply not care and leave easily are lucky in a way. They have the ideal (for them) consumerist mindset, which is to exit stage left when a company fails to deliver and send a strong message with their wallets. But at the same time, if every consumer acted in this manner with ease, there'd be no such thing as customer loyalty and most companies would collapse overnight, due to the fickle nature of their customer base.

 

Loyalty is vital to the stability of markets, but it's also easy to exploit. Somewhere therein is where the true "abuse" happens.

[TapVallian]

lol aren't you cute.

 

Yes. We are the majority. And you have no conclusive proof to the contrary.

 

A side note. I hate raiding. I generally avoid group content all together as I hate people. why you ask? This thread is as good of an example as any. I'm a hardcore story player. I came to SWTOR to have a Star Wars experience, and I did right up until the end of vanilla, much to my chagrin.

 

Aren't you cute as well? Who is this we you speak of? Where is the conclusive proof that you and this we you speak of are the majority? You mention sub forums and sub forums overflowing with your evidence.... I suspect not everyone see's it that way. Which sub forums exactly?

 

Also.... I'm pretty sure the OP wasn't targeting any one group and their agenda, but the "I speak for everyone" type of poster who post's about anything. And it was pretty humorous until you got all seriously offended appearing.

[TapVallian]

 

(as F2P's aren't really considered part of the playerbase, by BW or by paying players, as they don't benefit the game or BW in any sense) <---- if you really believe that it just shows you don't understand that business model at all. It makes them money (and therefore matters to them) because plenty of F2P's pay more in micro transactions over the course of a month than $15 that a sub would cost them.

 

 

The problem is this:

 

TLDR: SWTOR is supported almost wholly by subscribers who dislike what the game has become and want to leave, but can't bring themselves to because they love the SWTOR that no longer exists and are foolishly fighting to bring it back.

 

The word ridiculous springs to mind when I read the above statement. Maybe it wouldn't sound so silly if you had omitted "almost wholly". I'm sure there are some subscribers that fit your relationship analogy, but saying that SWTOR is almost wholly supported by subs who dislike the game but can't break their addiction is just crazy talk.

 

You use a lot of fancy words in your posts and I'm sure we're to supposed to get the idea you're very smart, but the fact you are basing your assumptions on "sub forums and sub forums" worth of evidence tends to call that into question.

 

I think someone else in the thread already pointed out that it's pretty common knowledge that a small percentage of any games player base actual read the forums of their game and even fewer still post about anything. So your overwhelming evidence is of a small percentage of the games players.

 

TLDR; maybe in a thread about whatever agenda someone is focusing on today 30 of 50 posters don't like something. Meanwhile out in the game are thousands of players who are happily just playing the game and having fun with said agenda concern.