Can SWTOR ever recover from the abyss of bad reviews

[Rolodome]

And people in this thread declaring this now a single player game is complete hyperbole.. intended to deceive readers as to the state of the game. These players are just bent over there being no new OPs, and limited new FPs and WZ through 4.0, which is a somewhat valid concern. I do agree there needs to be more group content, possibly integrated with the general theme and story of the next expac...... but in reality... we don't have answers on that yet.

"Deceive readers as to the state of the game"? That's quite a jump in reasoning there, for someone so conscientious about using "facts."

 

The fact is, KOTFE is SWTOR's current flagship content and it is solo. Does that make the entire game solo? No. But it does mean that the game is currently not being marketed as a multi-player game.

[KnownError]

"Deceive readers as to the state of the game"? That's quite a jump in reasoning there, for someone so conscientious about using "facts."

 

The fact is, KOTFE is SWTOR's current flagship content and it is solo. Does that make the entire game solo? No. But it does mean that the game is currently not being marketed as a multi-player game.

 

You think that will hurt the community more?

[Rolodome]

You think that will hurt the community more?

I don't know.

 

What I can say is, I get the feeling that the chapter a month format for the latter half of KOTFE was the rough game equivalent of a doctor saying "clear!" and trying to revive someone who appears to be dead.

 

I also get the feeling, in part related to that, that the SWTOR heads don't feel SWTOR is capable of competing as a multi-player game, with all the other games out there (at least, not at the time that they adopted the chapter a month model).

 

And I get the sense that it was an attempt to "prove" that SWTOR can still turn over significant profit (and now that they've proven it, they may have bought themselves some freedom to get back into multi-player and try to win back part of that market).

 

These are all just impressions, mind you. Some of it is based directly on stuff I've observed, some of it is a feeling, like watching behavior from people and such. On the whole, I guess to try to answer your question, I think SWTOR was not built at its core to be a solo MMO, so it has to either find its way back to being significantly multi-player (including new stuff) or it's going to have to go through some changes that make it more solo-oriented on a fundamental level (not just the content produced, but the class dynamic, for instance).

 

What will happen will probably be something in the middle. They have mentioned group content a couple of times, without any details as to what it could be or look like. This likely has to do with the shifting back toward the multi-player part of the market, to some degree. They, like us, no doubt realize that the game was not built to be a solo game, originally. I would say the one clear exception to this is the class missions themselves, which, from what I remember, were solo-oriented from the beginning.

 

It does seem like the population has suffered for a variety of reasons, but it's difficult to say, for example (if there is a decline) whether it can be attributed to the solo-orientation itself or if it was already happening and the KOTFE thing was an attempt to slow the decline and draw in new people who will be satiated with solo story. I mean, in raiding communities, even in games where raids are produced regularly, there are slow periods where guilds drift off and get bored because making a strong, mostly-bug-free raid takes a solid 3-6 months, even for the best teams. And the top guilds get the newest raids completed in a matter of weeks and have nothing to do but farm them for gear and twiddle their thumbs until the next one comes out.

 

This problem is only compounded if a new raid is tuned to the point where a lot of errors can made and you can still complete them. I've heard of cases where a developer purposefully overtuned a new raid on release (made it next to impossible to complete) to err on the side of ensuring that people don't burn through it too quickly.

[gabigool]

I don't know.

 

What I can say is, I get the feeling that the chapter a month format for the latter half of KOTFE was the rough game equivalent of a doctor saying "clear!" and trying to revive someone who appears to be dead.

 

I also get the feeling, in part related to that, that the SWTOR heads don't feel SWTOR is capable of competing as a multi-player game, with all the other games out there (at least, not at the time that they adopted the chapter a month model).

 

And I get the sense that it was an attempt to "prove" that SWTOR can still turn over significant profit (and now that they've proven it, they may have bought themselves some freedom to get back into multi-player and try to win back part of that market).

 

These are all just impressions, mind you. Some of it is based directly on stuff I've observed, some of it is a feeling, like watching behavior from people and such. On the whole, I guess to try to answer your question, I think SWTOR was not built at its core to be a solo MMO, so it has to either find its way back to being significantly multi-player (including new stuff) or it's going to have to go through some changes that make it more solo-oriented on a fundamental level (not just the content produced, but the class dynamic, for instance).

 

What will happen will probably be something in the middle. They have mentioned group content a couple of times, without any details as to what it could be or look like. This likely has to do with the shifting back toward the multi-player part of the market, to some degree. They, like us, no doubt realize that the game was not built to be a solo game, originally. I would say the one clear exception to this is the class missions themselves, which, from what I remember, were solo-oriented from the beginning.

 

It does seem like the population has suffered for a variety of reasons, but it's difficult to say, for example (if there is a decline) whether it can be attributed to the solo-orientation itself or if it was already happening and the KOTFE thing was an attempt to slow the decline and draw in new people who will be satiated with solo story. I mean, in raiding communities, even in games where raids are produced regularly, there are slow periods where guilds drift off and get bored because making a strong, mostly-bug-free raid takes a solid 3-6 months, even for the best teams. And the top guilds get the newest raids completed in a matter of weeks and have nothing to do but farm them for gear and twiddle their thumbs until the next one comes out.

 

This problem is only compounded if a new raid is tuned to the point where a lot of errors can made and you can still complete them. I've heard of cases where a developer purposefully overtuned a new raid on release (made it next to impossible to complete) to err on the side of ensuring that people don't burn through it too quickly.

 

I'm inclined to believe that KotET will bring back some focus to group activities, and after listening to Ben recently I - admittedly for the first time in a long time - am starting to believe he gets it.

 

But if new Operations are released - and I believe they will be - they absolutely cannot be of the quality and structure of SoR's.

 

The two tier structure does not work for this game. And while I am perfectly aware it has been said they will never create NM mode again, they have said plenty that they've backed up on. And let's be honest. 3 of the HM bosses weren't HM, they were NM encounters.

 

This playerbase cannot sustain a meaningful raiding community - and without one, what's the point of creating the content? - with a two tier model.

 

The skill range of this playerbase is close to the widest its ever been. There is no way to create content that is fun and challenging to a community with a skill distribution this wide with only two tiers of difficulty. It's literally impossible. I would argue this community needs 4 tiers.

 

Also, the post-release support needs to be better. Far better. While I respect the idea of not wanting to be knee-jerk in their reaction style WRT tuning, I do think they need to be far better about communicating their understanding/recognition of bugs/exploits. I still recall my old team giving up on Cora after getting Rugaar to 29% because everyone was sick of clearing the trash every hour. After the content had been out for four months. And while I agree that most of the people complaining about UL simply weren't respecting the mechanics, the weird things that would happen with that encounter still baffle me. It took nearly a week for BW to even mention the telegraph bug a few months ago, even though it was reported the day it broke. That's insane.

 

I remember waaaaaay back in WoW I was in one of the first guilds to pull Nefarian and he was bugged to ****. We reported it, and a GM popped into our instance and hung out with us for an hour, watching us pull it. At one point there were a couple of them sitting by the little throne thing. They seemed to be more concerned about it than we were. It was the coolest thing. I'm not asking for that. I'm just asking how it's even conceivable it requires almost a week to say "Hey we understand Blaster is pointing his telegraph at the wall. We're working on it and will update you. Stack Bounty Hunters as a workaround in the meantime".

 

I guess my point is, if they release it, they need to treat it as if it's actually important. If you consider the state of MB vs. Coratani right now it's clear that is not the case.

Edited August 19, 2016 by gabigool

[Alanbra]

 

And I get the sense that it was an attempt to "prove" that SWTOR can still turn over significant profit (and now that they've proven it, they may have bought themselves some freedom to get back into multi-player and try to win back part of that market).

 

 

.

 

I'm not sure they have. We've had new platinum rarity along with monthly cartel pack releases. Also, the price increase of server transfers. Add in the whole DvL event and how it seems to be designed to encourage people to buy DvL packs to complete armor sets.

Combine that with some of the lowest QA we've yet seen and their recent office move.

 

To me it all seems like the actions of a company sc****** up short term profits while they desperately try to keep the lights on. It does not seem like the actions of a company secure in its long term future.

[Rolodome]

I'm not sure they have. We've had new platinum rarity along with monthly cartel pack releases. Also, the price increase of server transfers. Add in the whole DvL event and how it seems to be designed to encourage people to buy DvL packs to complete armor sets.

Combine that with some of the lowest QA we've yet seen and their recent office move.

 

To me it all seems like the actions of a company sc****** up short term profits while they desperately try to keep the lights on. It does not seem like the actions of a company secure in its long term future.

Possibly. Though that may all be part of the same effort to prove that the game is still worth the funding. If they really are struggling right now despite everything they say, the livestream crew are some good actors because I watched the last livestream and they didn't appear worried at all. Compare that to the one prior, where they had just felt the brunt of the DvL feedback and seemed to be oozing discomfort at having to talk about it at all (in other words, it doesn't fit that they're good actors because they didn't seem to be hiding the discomfort when it came to DvL, whereas they seemed downright chipper post ch16).

 

I'm sure there's some money politics going on behind the scenes either way, but they really don't seem to be suffering at this point in terms of profit. I imagine that at the very least, they have secured funding for KOTET, which gives them quite a bit of time to continue improving.

 

The office move, believe it or not, could even be a sign of growth, as they gear into full development for KOTET.

 

I "greatly disapprove" of their cartel market practices, but they do seem to be practices that are working.

 

BTW, it's not necessarily as simple as "struggling to keep the lights on" vs "making a profit." From what I've read, with products like these, it's less a question of "a profit" and more a question of "enough profit." If they were flirting with the red, they'd probably have been shut down long ago. I know that probably sounds crazy to a lay person, but that's what I've read. I don't really understand the business reasoning behind it or I'd explain.

[rklontz]

This thread got boring since certain people got a time out

[peter_plankskull]

This thread got boring since certain people got a time out

 

How do you tell when other people get a vacation anyway?

[KnownError]

I'm not sure they have. We've had new platinum rarity along with monthly cartel pack releases. Also, the price increase of server transfers. Add in the whole DvL event and how it seems to be designed to encourage people to buy DvL packs to complete armor sets.

Combine that with some of the lowest QA we've yet seen and their recent office move.

 

To me it all seems like the actions of a company sc****** up short term profits while they desperately try to keep the lights on. It does not seem like the actions of a company secure in its long term future.

 

Actions speak louder than words, and I can see how this can be perceived this way. That is for sure.

[KnownError]

This thread got boring since certain people got a time out

 

Why are people getting timed out?

 

I didn't see anything that was egregious or warranted a time out

[rklontz]

How do you tell when other people get a vacation anyway?

 

Posts getting deleted almost instantly by the mods and they stop posting is almost a sure sign that either they got a time out or a tongue lashing from the mods.

[rklontz]

Why are people getting timed out?

 

I didn't see anything that was egregious or warranted a time out

 

I was starting to get personal between a couple of posters

[BrotherJohn]

Not unless it gets tons of bad reviews in big gaming media outlets. That's really where the hurt tends to come in. A few people getting negative on the forums doesn't even rock the boat; it's too standard and expected to even get a head turn from most players and potential players. Especially when only subscribers can post, so that makes it harder for the brunt of negative feedback to get through (I'm sure this is intentional).

 

I have not seen a good review of swtor ever really. and recently the only reviews seen are ones that blast the game and label it as a total waste of your time.

[Rolodome]

I have not seen a good review of swtor ever really. and recently the only reviews seen are ones that blast the game and label it as a total waste of your time.

Supposedly KOTFE (the expansion) got good gaming press. I don't remember where, but I think I even read one of the positive reviews and that (no joke) was part of what motivated me to give SWTOR a solid chance. I had just come from playing KOTOR 1 and 2 again, so I was all hyped up on KOTOR stuff.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Rolodome

[Knorlac]

I don't think it's the bad reviews(I don't even know if there are any) that pose a problem. It's the reputation this game seems to have with many (MMO)players.

Whenever I tell someone that I play SWtOR, I get a reaction like "Huh, is this still around?" or "Didn't this go F2P right after launch?"

Some of those persons were subscribers when SWtOR launched, but they all left in the first great exodus and never looked back.

[RameiArashi]

This thread is complete nonsense like all the native threads. The game is more popular than its ever been.

I think the same nuts claim WOW is dying. When its anything but.

[peter_plankskull]

This thread is complete nonsense like all the native threads. The game is more popular than its ever been.

I think the same nuts claim WOW is dying. When its anything but.

 

More popular than its ever been... proof please?

 

They stated more popular than three years around December... but NEVER more than before.

[Tippor]

At this point, the game is never going to be huge. But, it also doesn't need to be. It's got it's niche, loyal following. I don't think it's going anywhere any time soon, but I would like to see them design around the MMO that it's supposed to be. I've been playing this game since beta and I love it. I won't go anywhere, but I will admit that it really does play like a single player RPG and that's going to turn some people off. I'd like to see them resume MMO design.

[AllisonLightning]

This thread is complete nonsense like all the native threads. The game is more popular than its ever been.

I think the same nuts claim WOW is dying. When its anything but.

 

What really makes me giggle is when the raiders complain to everyone about the supposed guide to raiding and MMOs WoW is... the core boils down to the developers should always, always cater to the raiders and make them feel special at the expense of everyone else.

 

The game has a following and an instant player boost on a movie release cycle, I wouldn't say this game is ultra popular but it's certainly not dying. Dying/lower priority would involve getting shunned at the event they had recently where SWTOR was front and centre with the other big guns- trust me, it's happening to one of my favourite shows at the moment because it doesn't fit the network's tone. No advertising, no publicity... they'd prefer it just to die quietly and it's a universal concept.

[Distracted]

What really makes me giggle is when the raiders complain to everyone about the supposed guide to raiding and MMOs WoW is... the core boils down to the developers should always, always cater to the raiders and make them feel special at the expense of everyone else.

 

I don't think any single play style should ever be catered to unless it's central to the games design, but in saying that, Bioware haven't exactly ever put much effort in to end game content. I'd like to see a couple of new Operations & some Flashpoints each expansion instead of being forced to kill Kragga for the 250th time to get a new piece of loot. Boosting up old content is the lazy way out.

[Jeweledleah]

What really makes me giggle is when the raiders complain to everyone about the supposed guide to raiding and MMOs WoW is... the core boils down to the developers should always, always cater to the raiders and make them feel special at the expense of everyone else.

 

The game has a following and an instant player boost on a movie release cycle, I wouldn't say this game is ultra popular but it's certainly not dying. Dying/lower priority would involve getting shunned at the event they had recently where SWTOR was front and centre with the other big guns- trust me, it's happening to one of my favourite shows at the moment because it doesn't fit the network's tone. No advertising, no publicity... they'd prefer it just to die quietly and it's a universal concept.

 

this comment is funny to me becasue you claim there was a boost to the game thanks to movie... except... there were no adds for the game before the movie. battlefront - yeah, this game? nope. this game gets virtually no paid advertising. facebook, twitter Instagram - sure, but even there - they really don't have much to advertise, as new content is pretty scarce and there is only so many ways you can say "come over, face Arcann"

 

the problem is... lately? even story is getting phoned in. there are very few differences based on choices and there are virtually no differences based on class or faction, aside from maybe an offhand sentence or two. the story, what little there of it - has almost no replay value because of it.

 

and outside of that... there... nothing other than old content. if you are a new player - plenty to do, but if you have been playing for a while? not so much. and it doesn't matter what type of player you are, there isn't much to do for old players of every persuasion, not just raiders you look down on with such derision. and... gotta advertise to get new players in! which... they are not really doing so much.

 

and were they really saying anything at the gamescom this weekend? because I literally couldn't find anything recent when googling. Battlefront news? oh definitely, but swtor? not so much. even last official tweet is 2 days old and instagram is just old screenshots, cartel pack adverts and Rusk - same as twitter actualy.

 

so front and center, oh yeah....

 

now, I doubt this game is going anywhere, for as long as they make money of pack sales and EA holds the exclusive star wars license. so at a minimum, I'd say this game has 3 more years in it. but... Warhammer online also lasted until their license expired... but it certainly wasn't doing great (to put it mildly) up on till that point.

 

/ sigh I mean... its cool that some of you are happy and all, but... that doesn't mean this game is doing as well as it could be if ONLY they would give it some more development resources outside of reskinned armors and weapons.

[rklontz]

What really makes me giggle is when the raiders complain to everyone about the supposed guide to raiding and MMOs WoW is... the core boils down to the developers should always, always cater to the raiders and make them feel special at the expense of everyone else.

 

WoW pandering to raiders and casuals and sticking to traditional mmo game play is the reason it makes more money in 1 month than all of EA does in a year

Edited August 22, 2016 by rklontz

[AllisonLightning]

WoW pandering to raiders and casuals and sticking to traditional mmo game play is the reason it makes more money in 1 month than all of EA does in a year

 

The point is raiders complain nonetheless. (The movie comment was the natural flow that goes from new Star Wars movie to games, not any targeted advertising) WoW created their formula first- in any case game versus game, yes and 'flagship' products should always be earning the serious cash but EA outearns Blizzard in general and has a lot of diversified properties. Blizzard would have a problem if WoW was outperformed by SWTOR on any level.

 

The extra fans you can get running a Star Wars MMO aren't your traditional MMO fans and will be attracted by Star Wars features- these are the people that won't just expansion hop like my best friend (she literally goes game-to-game for content)

 

I'm not the greatest KOTFE fan but if their direction wasn't working in terms of story first, EA wouldn't let Bioware mess around, they'd order the direction changed or absolutely shun the product. These forums would be dead, hidden behind a 'you can email/call us, submit a ticket- see, you're still special subs' since they've ditched forums for negative feedback and tolerating it on a product they don't care about/want to milk till it dies isn't acceptable to them.

 

The balance needs work- no one is saying it doesn't but when your best friend literally burns through content, she doesn't carry on- thank frell, she just chooses the next MMO on her list and only comes back to the original when there's more content, you get highly skeptical somehow an extra operation or even a few would be the magical pill to satisfying raiders, unhappy at the games that supposedly embody MMOs. I still think they should add a new operation among other things but raiders complaining isn't exactly a sign the sky is falling.