[SPOILERS] I resubbed so I could post criticism of KOTFE

[Rolodome]

Just kidding. I resubbed so I could go back and enjoy a few non-KOTFE things I was still having fun with, without feeling like a homeless person at the white house correspondents' dinner.

 

But I didn't make this thread to talk about my subbing habits. I made it to talk about KOTFE. In excruciating detail. If you're looking for positive affirmation after enjoying the KOTFE finale, this is not the place. I suggest you move on. My aim is to write this as if I'm a story critic: As constructively critical as possible.

 

I don't want to spend a billion words saying what I'm going to do, so let's jump right in. Keep in mind that some of this is just straight up my opinion (I'm saying this to save on using phrases like "to me" in my writing)

 

In the beginning

 

KOTFE started out interesting. I was enthralled by the scene of the brothers, Thexan and Arcann, cutting their way across the galaxy and being ignored by their father. For some reason, I only remember seeing this once in game and haven't seen it in subsequent playthroughs (not sure what's up with that). But anyway, it was good. It drew me into the world of Zakuul.

 

The prelude did this even more, with the confrontation, the choice to kneel or refuse. My original DS smuggler was not a kneeler and Arcann and I jointly smacked that old man into the ground. More importantly though, finding Valkorion (along with the hints of "he's Vititate") was what writers call "the hook." It was the part at the beginning of the story that got my attention and made me go, "I want to see what comes next."

 

The story writers seemed to think so too because after that, there was a dream sequence with Valkorion, a sense that he was a part of you, and him every so often coming in with some evil manipulator comment that was trying to push you in a particular direction, including offering use of his power (which I readily did since I was playing pure DS).

 

In fact, the whole first 9 chapters seem to be in line with that initial hook. And I was ready ready ready to find out what in the actual **** Valkorion was up to, what the deal was with Vitiate, and so on.

 

 

Chapter 10 and on

 

Then Odessen hits and here is where the story begins to diverge. Up to this point, you've been trying to survive, more or less. Now you're forming an alliance to take on Arcann and the Eternal Empire. Great, cool and all, but what the **** happened to Valkorion? He more or less goes absent until the "finding yourself" chapter, where he shows up briefly to say, "Screw you. No matter what choices you made in regards to me leading up to this moment, I'm going to act in exactly the same way towards you, which is this: You're weak and pathetic and you'll never win unless you go find Satele and Marr and make a special weapon for fighting Arcann."

 

He then (to my memory) goes completely silent until the finale, where he makes a brief force apparition appearance at the very end to say, "You're ready."

 

 

The problem

 

The hook that drew me in was, "OMG, it's that emperor that was going to destroy the galaxy and stuff. And we really wanted to kill him. Here's another chance, also he's in your head. Where is that headed?"

 

That hook disappears after chapter 9, leaving behind... well, what exactly?

 

We already know that we're going to kill Arcann at some point, or at least seriously damage him. That's just story fundamentals, that most audience members already realize. The alternative would be that we die, which wouldn't make any sense.

 

And we already know that the alliance will, in some way, win because again, the alternative would be that the galaxy we know dies.

 

So what's my motivation to turn the page, as it were?

 

 

You search and find... nothing

 

I latched onto what I thought was a kind of hook in my second playthrough of chapters 1-15 because, I suppose, I was desperate for something intriguing. As I watched how Vaylin acted, I thought to myself, "This can't be real. There's no way BW writers would knowingly write a character so one-dimensional and so much resembling a plot point. There is more going on here." I watched as she seemed to come just short of hurting you or your allies every time, how despite purportedly being one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy who could basically **** up a whole city with one well-placed force rip, she lost to her mother in a duel on Asylum.

 

I thought, this is the kicker. In the finale, there's going to be a reveal that there's more to her than meets the eye. Boy was I disappointed on that front. In 16, she manages to clear up any doubt that she's a toddler in an adult body.

 

 

The SCORPIO angle

 

I can't speak for other people (maybe it's somewhat the writer in me) but SCORPIO's eventual betrayal was one of the most obvious things I've ever seen. So obvious in fact that if it was meant to be a hook for chapters 10-16, then it completely passed me by because I saw it coming lightyears away. In fact, if you've played the IA storyline, then it's even more obvious that SCORPIO has her own agenda and has the loyalty of a sith.

 

 

Picking up the scattered pieces

 

By the end of chapter 15, there are so many plots dissecting in different directions that it's chaotic to even wrap your head around it. Rather than alleviating this mental headache of a story framework, chapter 16 compounds it.

 

Let's see:

- Koth might have deserted

- Valkorion is AWOL, with not even the remotest of clues of what his long-term plan is

- The Eternal Throne is in the hands of SCORPIO, as is (it seems?) part of the Eternal Fleet

- Arcann and Vaylin are in the middle of space, after having just failed to catch the Outlander again ("that darn Outlander! shucks... *canned laughter*")

- The alliance was supposed to get control of the Eternal Fleet in 15 (I think?) but now they don't really have that... so they're sort of regrouping I guess.

 

Then chapter 16 hits. As if things aren't already complicated enough, it starts with SCORPIO playing one of the most transparent mind games in war storytelling (get your enemies fighting each other in one place and then attack them). Nonetheless, it feels complicated because you aren't really sure what SCORPIO's end-game is.

 

Character motivation only gets more complicated from there:

- SCORPIO seemingly wants to wipe everyone out, but then when Vaylin returns, offers her the chair with open arms and claims that she just wanted to give her robot buddies sentience.

- Valkorion shows up long enough to say, "You're ready," but doesn't remotely give any more info on what his end-game is.

- Senya suddenly wants to redeem Arcann and save him, which isn't surprising, but...

- Arcann does a 180 the moment he tastes true defeat. In 1-15, he has shown no redeeming character qualities whatsoever. There is no reason to believe that there is an ounce of anything positive or moral in his person. Yet, when the chips are down and his mother makes an appeal, he readily sides with her. And on top of that...

- The player character is suddenly given an option to spare Arcann, when all of the info in 1-15 indicates that sparing him is a really bad idea and there's no chance of him ever being a good person.

 

 

Who am I?

 

In the finale, light and dark are not just ignored... they're missing completely. One could argue that this fits with the optional character line "I am beyond light and dark" when confronting Arcann, but 1) It's the first we're hearing of this as a player. As recent as chapter 15, there was a light/dark option. 2) Why now, specifically?

 

"Ok, but," says the challenger in my head, "they did it this way because killing Arcann isn't really a dark side choice. It's a gray choice. And sparing him isn't really a light side choice, since he's going to live through it anyway."

 

Ok, challenger in my head. Fair point. But this goes against the core selling-point mechanic of the game. Moral choices, light and dark.

 

But let's set that aside for a moment. What's the player character's motivation? It's an RPG, so PC motivation is supposed to vary depending on how the player views the character. Still, we all know that options are limited and so our PC motivations are limited.

 

Whether light or dark, we want to:

- Kill Arcann (I guess)

- Defend Odessen (assuredly)

 

Of these, we accomplish defending Odessen. But who are we defending exactly? There's no camera shot of turbolasers razing rebellion bases, or strategists around a command table, talking about how close the death star is to being in firing range. There's no feeling built up for Odessen. It's an instance in the game. That's it. Compare this to Asylum, where it's a battle of faces we recognize, fighting for their lives.

 

Then there's Arcann. Arcann, the guy who (whether we're good or evil) has murdered countless people in the pursuit of destroying us, who stuck us in carbonite for five years, who at every moment in the story is our arch-nemesis. Who is essentially the Darth Malak of KOTFE.

 

And we can't kill him. Ultimately, his fate is decided by someone else, a character who we were forced to work with and have as a companion, whether we trusted her or not.

 

 

You'll never guess what happens next... because too much is happening

 

The overall criticism I have is: This story has too many spotlight characters and you, the player character, aren't actually important in the way that the story continuously claims you are. This isn't Game of Thrones. This isn't perspective-shift every chapter. There's you and then there's everybody else, and everybody else is supposed to flow outward from you. If that sounds confusing, just look at virtually every other story in the game. It does this.

 

In fact, in KOTFE 1-9, it works this way. You're the center of your universe and everything else flows outward from you. Then 10-16 turns into a hodge podge of zigzagging characters arcs, your importance is diminished despite you getting a special title and a bunch of people who you can barely order around, and at the end, no matter how powerful anyone says you are, the only thing you succeed at is putting on your plot armor in the morning.

 

You're unkillable, but you continuously need more and better friends to defeat your enemies. Not at all how the classic SWTOR is written, nor is it how most fiction stories are written in general. Take Luke Skywalker, who needed guidance from Yoda and Obi-wan, but at the end, it was him and him alone against Vader and The Emperor and it was his choice that defined what happened next. In a movie finale, Luke had more choice and more autonomy than we got in a game finale.

 

 

Final words

 

Despite 16 being a complete letdown for me that resolved virtually nothing, I can't help but take a moment to stand in awe of the attempt itself. This one chapter a month setup. It was valiantly done and it wasn't terribly done, from a critical standpoint (I've seen much worse stories). Unfortunately, the lesson should be clear, from where I'm standing: The first chapters 1-9 were a solid experience largely because they were released together, with time to revise and edit and ensure that a cohesive story was being told.

 

10-16 were not released together and it shows. If I was giving feedback on KOTFE 10-16 as a beta reader, I would be saying, "This is a really solid draft, but it needs work."

 

You need to take your time. I know from experience. Rushed storytelling is rarely cohesive storytelling. And although haphazard experimental narrative cocaine release can be interesting to be a part of (see: LOST fans.. not that I was one of them..) who is going to remember a haphazard story with awe and respect down the line? (see: LOST fans.. I guess some of them do.. I never could get into it LOL).

[Keta]

well put.

[lingarn]

And we can't kill him. Ultimately, his fate is decided by someone else

 

That's the core of it.

 

Nothing is resolved, and our choices have no impact, because they can't: All of this is just a way to build for the next season, and the single-storyline expansion can't absorb any real disruption from player choices.

 

This critique was well written, even if my opinion wanders from it a little.

[Nothing_Shines]

Not bad, overall. I agree with most everything. Good job.

[roldaugh]

I am not really very good at expressing how I feel in words.... I came on to the forums feeling let down, what you have written is the way I felt after finishing chapter 16. I would also like to point out that I sat through the credits, even the German voice talent and when my toon popped up on the screen instead of some kind of teaser scene... well that just made it worse lol

[Haruen]

Good critique. Bioware needs to read it.

[peter_plankskull]

- Senya suddenly wants to redeem Arcann and save him, which isn't surprising, but...

- Arcann does a 180 the moment he tastes true defeat. In 1-15, he has shown no redeeming character qualities whatsoever. There is no reason to believe that there is an ounce of anything positive or moral in his person. Yet, when the chips are down and his mother makes an appeal, he readily sides with her. And on top of that...

Pretty much the only thing I feel indifferent to, everything else is 100% accurate imo.

 

From the looks of it, I believe Arcann was someone trying to prove himself in the world and the others around him. Valkorian, his Father, for the most part ignored his childhood it seems and made him go through rigorous training instead of spending actual time with him. He didn't feel loved, even after five long years of battling the greatest threats to his Empire, his Father still didn't properly acknowledge him. Shortly after the final days of the war he ends up killing his closest ally, his brother, which made him a cold hearted and desolate person. I believe it wasn't until Senya came to save him that he finally felt loved again, and that this was his moment of redemption to atone for his sins, the death of billions of people, his knights, and his brother. He felt like he had a purpose again and that their is good in the world.

 

Just my theory... still... I wish he was more three dimensional and less muahahaha. That they didn't show him sitting on a throne all day ordering people around, that he actually was trying his hardest to maintain order and lead the empire in the hopes of appeasing his father, that he's trying his best.

Edited August 10, 2016 by peter_plankskull

[Eshvara]

Pretty much the only thing I feel indifferent to, everything else is 100% accurate imo.

 

From the looks of it, I believe Arcann was someone trying to prove himself in the world and the others around him. Valkorian, his Father, for the most part ignored his childhood it seems and made him go through rigorous training instead of spending actual time with him. He didn't feel loved, even after five long years of battling the greatest threats to his Empire, his Father still didn't properly acknowledge him. Shortly after the final days of the war he ends up killing his closest ally, his brother, which made him a cold hearted and desolate person. I believe it wasn't until Senya came to save him that he finally left loved again, and that this was his moment of redemption to atone for his sins, the death of billions of people, his knights, and his brother. He felt like he had a purpose again and that their is good in the world.

 

Just my theory... still... I wish he was more three dimensional and less muahahaha. That they didn't show him sitting on a throne all day ordering people around, that he actually was trying his hardest to maintain order and lead the empire in the hopes of appeasing his father, that he's trying his best.

I agree a 100% I never really felt Arcann was going to be a villain forever either way and always thought he was going to be a companion fighting Valkorion somehow in the end. Sure would be a good ally.

[Ornithopoda]

I would also like to point out that I sat through the credits, even the German voice talent and when my toon popped up on the screen instead of some kind of teaser scene... well that just made it worse lol

 

I did the same thing lol. I guess we're all just too spoiled my Marvel movies these days.

[JattaGin]

Very well written, OP. 100% approval from my side. Not that anything needs my approval, but anyway. I really hope that BW decision makers read this thread, because it actually gives them helpful hints that they have to do better in season 2.

 

As others replied: I as well felt very heavily let down after I finished chapter 16. A game should never end like that. Doesn't matter if it was just one season. There were end credits, so it's over.

[Mowermanx]

We already know that we're going to kill Arcann at some point, or at least seriously damage him. That's just story fundamentals, that most audience members already realize. The alternative would be that we die, which wouldn't make any sense.

 

You lost me here, I didn't automatically think this, and didn't treat Arcann as the main character in the story, not in ch16 or any chapter for that matter.

What you call fundamentals is just a little too much presumption in my opinion.

The moment BW made it clear that 1-16 is just part 1 of this saga, my thoughts and opinion changed on the direction I felt 10-16 was going, I felt then, that there would be little to no resolution in part 1, and I was correct in this as it turns out.

As you touched on earlier in your write up, the emperor is the central part of this whole saga, I mean, he eats whole planets like we would a marshmallow, in turn making Arcann and the Eternal fleet, the Empire, the Republic, Zakuul and now SCORPIO mere bugs on the ground that can be squashed at any time.

 

You'll never guess what happens next... because too much is happening

 

The overall criticism I have is: This story has too many spotlight characters and you, the player character, aren't actually important in the way that the story continuously claims you are. This isn't Game of Thrones. This isn't perspective-shift every chapter. There's you and then there's everybody else, and everybody else is supposed to flow outward from you. If that sounds confusing, just look at virtually every other story in the game. It does this.

 

In fact, in KOTFE 1-9, it works this way. You're the center of your universe and everything else flows outward from you. Then 10-16 turns into a hodge podge of zigzagging characters arcs, your importance is diminished despite you getting a special title and a bunch of people who you can barely order around, and at the end, no matter how powerful anyone says you are, the only thing you succeed at is putting on your plot armor in the morning.

 

You're unkillable, but you continuously need more and better friends to defeat your enemies. Not at all how the classic SWTOR is written, nor is it how most fiction stories are written in general. Take Luke Skywalker, who needed guidance from Yoda and Obi-wan, but at the end, it was him and him alone against Vader and The Emperor and it was his choice that defined what happened next. In a movie finale, Luke had more choice and more autonomy than we got in a game finale.

 

Its not that unlike the rest of the game?

1-50: culminating at Ilum with Malgus, who sees the Empire for what it is, a bunch of racist psychopathic madmen that need to be destroyed and replaced with forming alliances with anyone and everyone that shared the same ideals and no one species or race automatically supreme leaders. A view I shared but BW writers gave you no choice. You have to kill the man that gives the Empire their best chance of success.

Makeb: was the odd one out in the way it was handled, I enjoyed it though and wished this was the path forward in how they handled the main story lines.

Shadow of Revan: Similar to Malgus in that he seen and knew the real threat the Emperor posed and being only second to the Emperor in power in his reborn state was in the best position to attack and destroy him, and again, we go against the only guy who was possibly capable of killing him.

I felt the same distancing and lack of resolution in these as I did in kotfe.

[Costello]

Very well written OP, we can but hope the writing team take note though it maybe too late.

 

Aside from any personal preference over how a story plays out the key for anyone that is paid to write stories is to keep the customers coming back for more. If your not paid you can write what you like but if you want people to keep paying you, you have to appeal to them.

 

Did Kofte and in particularly chapter 16 deliver on this, for some it did for most it was average to poor (going from the number of light servers and posts on the forum).

 

Ultimately stories are about what emotions they invoke coupled with being ascetically appealing, you can't deny that much that made Star Wars great was the special effects but unless the dialogue and the story made you interested you can have all the space battles you want and people wont be interested.

 

What Kofte offered was a one story fits all no matter how badly that doesn't work, with many chapters being very short on advancing the narrative which then leads to *** moments that leave the audience going this is crap. Take one very well documented betrayal (there are a number and its getting to a point that everyone is betraying everyone) you do nothing to prep for it. You go play in a swamp, heist some loot, capture a droid, run 1000 heroics for supply crates, 30 alliance alerts and over the course of a year (maybe less in game time) do not at any point think you know what lets have a meeting with some of my most trusted ex companions (may mean finding them) and put into place contingencies for when this person betrays me, when this person betrays me and when this person betrays me.

 

With the writing team having the main character act as much like a chump as he/she possibly can and then once betrayed do their KHANNNNNNN! Moment shaking their fist and saying 'I'll get you for this Danger Mouse!!!!' I always knew you were going to betray me but I did nothing about it cause the writing team were determined to write the dumbest hero of all time!

 

But if your going to craft your hero to be a one size fits all retard you are only going to appeal to idiots with slightly more intelligent people going Seriously! This is insulting and frustrating and I'm bored of the obvious plot holes, obvious betrayals and down right pointless story. Now I appreciate not everyone will see it like that and their is a personal take on stories. Personally if I see a fantasy story in which the princess is looking to compete in a male arena, with bit characters mocking her saying how women can't compete but our hero is surprisingly enlightened and supports her. I've switched off before her obvious and inevitable victory. The mystery to me is why given how she easily beats the men in the competition and how strong and independent all the women in the land are, is where the idea women wouldn't be able to compete comes from. Clearly not from any evidence in the actual story. The same goes for Kofte where the biggest shock is how their are so many plot holes and lines of the story that make little sense other than to kill time.

[Rolodome]

Thanks for the replies. Happy my thoughts were taken well by most. I hope as well that they will learn from the mistakes they have made in KOTFE. And it's good to hear other peoples' thoughts as well.

You lost me here, I didn't automatically think this, and didn't treat Arcann as the main character in the story, not in ch16 or any chapter for that matter.

What you call fundamentals is just a little too much presumption in my opinion.

The moment BW made it clear that 1-16 is just part 1 of this saga, my thoughts and opinion changed on the direction I felt 10-16 was going, I felt then, that there would be little to no resolution in part 1, and I was correct in this as it turns out.

As you touched on earlier in your write up, the emperor is the central part of this whole saga, I mean, he eats whole planets like we would a marshmallow, in turn making Arcann and the Eternal fleet, the Empire, the Republic, Zakuul and now SCORPIO mere bugs on the ground that can be squashed at any time.

I think all I meant there is that the Emperor plot had been all but abandoned and what was left was not intriguing to me.

 

Its not that unlike the rest of the game?

1-50: culminating at Ilum with Malgus, who sees the Empire for what it is, a bunch of racist psychopathic madmen that need to be destroyed and replaced with forming alliances with anyone and everyone that shared the same ideals and no one species or race automatically supreme leaders. A view I shared but BW writers gave you no choice. You have to kill the man that gives the Empire their best chance of success.

Makeb: was the odd one out in the way it was handled, I enjoyed it though and wished this was the path forward in how they handled the main story lines.

Shadow of Revan: Similar to Malgus in that he seen and knew the real threat the Emperor posed and being only second to the Emperor in power in his reborn state was in the best position to attack and destroy him, and again, we go against the only guy who was possibly capable of killing him.

I felt the same distancing and lack of resolution in these as I did in kotfe.

It's a fair argument. I'm not meaning to imply that every other story was perfect. But...

1-50 your story is very personal and centralized to you (if you have a specific example mind that contradicts this, feel free to say). And you do have choices at the end (and throughout) that are varied. For instance:

 

Killing Baras or letting him live and imprisoning him.

 

 

Ilum and Malgus: Choice, sure, may be missing. I'll give you that. I don't remember how it plays out very well. But the centering around you part is still there. It's you against him, at the end.

 

SoR: I guess the perspective varies on that depending on what class you playing. It sounds like you're talking from the standpoint of Sith Warrior, correct?

Edited August 10, 2016 by Rolodome

[XiamaraSimi]

 

With the writing team having the main character act as much like a chump as he/she possibly can and then once betrayed do their KHANNNNNNN! Moment shaking their fist and saying 'I'll get you for this Danger Mouse!!!!' I always knew you were going to betray me but I did nothing about it cause the writing team were determined to write the dumbest hero of all time!

 

 

So this...

 

And dangit now ill hear all my characters lines in my head Shatnerized when taking the other two i KOTFEd through... even worse since they are female...

Edited August 10, 2016 by XiamaraSimi

[MiguelGx]

Devs don't read the forums any longer, only reddit sometimes, if you want to post something do it there, if you have really resubbed only to do this you have thrown your money.

[gabigool]

The moment BW made it clear that 1-16 is just part 1 of this saga, my thoughts and opinion changed on the direction I felt 10-16 was going, I felt then, that there would be little to no resolution in part 1, and I was correct in this as it turns out.

 

But what if they announce a chapter 3? or 4? This could turn into a soap opera where there is always an excuse for not resolving anything.

 

I believe something needed to be resolved at the end of season 1. Nothing of any import (to me at least) was.

[DreadtechSavant]

Well welcome back I guess.

 

Everyone is entitled to there opinion including you. However I enjoyed the story and looking forward to the next. Yes there are something's I personally would have done differently, but this will be the same for every player.

 

Most of what I did not like were things other than the story itself.

[ImmortalLowlife]

OP....I'm wit cha 100% fam. You summed up my feelings about KotFE exactly.

 

I'm not gonna "rage cancel" my sub or anything so drastic, but I gotta say that any excitement I had for (insert dramatic music here) "season 2 KotET" has been greatly diminished because of the lackluster ending of season 1. I hope BW takes notice, and steps their storytelling game up in season 2.

[xPhoQuE]

My main issue with KoTFE is that it forces you to shape your protagonist. When I first got this game, I made a character I would call my own. I chose the Sith Empire because I wanted to. I walked the path of the dark side because I wanted to. But someone in this expansion, the devs forces you too be "more" than what you want. Darth Marr and Satele Shan preaches unity and be something more than just the Light or the Dark. This complete throws logic out the window and contradicts everything the rest of the Star War timelines believes in. Then they force you to team with the Republic to take out a bigger threat. Yavin was bad enough doing it. KoTET is the 3rd year our choice for faction would be deemed irrelevant. Let me finish with this KoTFE/KoTET crap, go back to d.k, and deal with Jedi and makepower plays within in the Sith Empire for personal gain like I want to. Let me hop on my sentinel and kill sith and deal with the real enemy, the new Empress Acina.

 

And since that wont happen, atleast give us chapters dedicated to our past faction. Let us head to our Capital and recruit formal allies not these crap alliance recruits.