Discussion on the State of GSF

[NemoSD]

Before we even get started, this post is fairly negative in its assessment of GSF. That is not to say I do not like it, as it is the only PvP I engage in while playing this game. I don't know if the Devs will read this, or even care, but I feel I should at least say my peace. If nothing comes of it, nothing comes of it.

 

The Ugly Side of GSF

 

GSF is a neglected game mode that has seen zero updates since its release, outside of an introduction of a couple of fighters that had no real use (Outside of the Fighter/Gunship hybred, and the Fighter/Bomber hybrid.) and the promise of a new mission type that never materialized.

 

So, for now we have 4 maps, with 2 game types.

 

On top of this, we have a per character grind fest, that means as many start new characters or try out new characters, they rarely, unless they are diehard GSF players, start up GSF again. It is two expensive/to much work to grind up the exact same fighters all over again.

 

So stagnation, combined with a massive grindy cost of entry that has to be paid over and over again, leads to dwindling players. Now, new players might buoy this up some, however a team with even just 2-3 vets, not even in upgraded ships, can completely stomp an average team, and just embarrassingly curb stomp a team with mostly newbies. This results in situations like I have experienced this last week, where I have played 10 matches and been close to winning on one, and actually won only one. Records like this discourage players from queuing, which increases queue times, which decreases players queuing, so on so forth.

 

Nothing here is new or something that others have not said, it is just the accepted stage of the game.

 

Solutions?

 

A possible solution could be an underdog bonus. As players lose more, they get an increase to damage or durability until they win X number of games. Thus if they are being curb stomped over and over again, eventually the handicap will level out and they will a couple of games, giving them the morale boost to keep playing, be able to compete with veteran players, and give them an opportunity to actually learn how to play.

 

Another possible underdog benefit could be increased requisition if you are the underdog team. If your "faction" has lost x of the last 100 GSF matches, you qualify for the "Underdog" reward, which doubles your requisition. So servers where the factions are more balanced, and win loss is about 50/50 this wont show up, but in servers where one side is just utterly dominating the other, at least the losers are getting rewards enough to allow them to advance, and keep queuing.

 

Now before people start shouting that this is handing a trophy to everyone, consider this. If all you get for losing 10 games in a row, waiting 2-3 hours between pops, is a few hundred requisition, not even enough for a SINGLE upgrade at low level fighters, stress and morale crushing defeats, you quit queuing. At least if they are getting rewards to advance and upgrade their fighters, they will keep queuing to advance the fighter, and will learn how to play and eventually the underdog bonus will go away.

 

Inclusion of new maps with asyemtric goals, such as defend a capitol ship while the other team attacks it, will go a long way as well, and will make the other fighters more useful, and might provide new and different challenges to keep the game play fresh.

 

Finally, better integrate rewards/bonuses with the rest of the game instead of making this a tack on like it is now.

[sharpenedstick]

Improving the overall play experience is both the most important and the most difficult upgrade GSF needs. Unfortunately, it is likely one we'll never get. However, several easy stop-gap measures may help matters.

 

Smaller Map

 

Make a smaller map, that requires fewer players to pop a queue. Making new maps sounds labor intensive, but actually they can take the existing maps and crop them.

 

The point capture maps? Shrink them around the middle point, and boom, king of the mountain.

 

TDM maps work fine shrunk down.

 

If the game is able to go with fewer players, wait times will decrease. This solution is similar to the 4v4 Arena WZs (which I actually don't care for).

 

Increase Daily/Weekly Quest Requisition Rewards

 

This is literally a 30-second task for one of their programmers. Just change the numbers.

 

Better rewards for Fleet Comms

 

Right now Fleet Comms can't be used for much. Improving that could help attract people / keep them playing:

 

1) Adding new decorations really isn't very difficult, because the models already exist in game. Give us pilot Personnel maybe?

 

2) Fleet Comms to buy Requisition? Can just take the daily/weekly reward items and put them on the vendor.

 

3) Fleet Comms to buy Republic Hyperspace Armada Reputation (and the Imperial equivalent)?

 

4) Fleet Comms for Warzone Comms or Data Crystals?

 

These changes I suggest would not fix everything. In fact, they wouldn't necessarily fix anything on their own. But they may help address some of the current issues, and even more important to EAware, all of them could be implemented in a single work day by even their most junior programmer.

[Pietrastor]

 

On top of this, we have a per character grind fest, that means as many start new characters or try out new characters, they rarely, unless they are diehard GSF players, start up GSF again. It is two expensive/to much work to grind up the exact same fighters all over again.

#1 flaw of GSF in my opinion. Faction-wise or legacy-wide hangars should've been in the mode from start. Made a topic on this issue: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=870866

 

 

A possible solution could be an underdog bonus. As players lose more, they get an increase to damage or durability until they win X number of games.

[...]

Another possible underdog benefit could be increased requisition if you are the underdog team.

 

I like the idea of underdog bonus, however, not sure if your particular suggestion wouldn't cause exploits and veterans quing strategically on stock ships etc. Perhaps a some kind of a temporary bolster to damage/shields for the duration of the match if the team of stock ships is put against veteran premade?

 

I also posted some other suggestion to improve GSF in another topic, will just copy+paste:

 

GSF needs to be better integrated within the main game. Ground-PVP uses the same characters we play in PVE, just with different gear, big difference. GSF needs to integrate itself in different ways, like Strongholds did.

 

- Fleet Requisitions should replace Fleet Comms entirely and be required to purchase various rewards, items, crystals, decorations, mounts and unlocks in the game

- GSF daily/weekly should grant Reputation tokens for Republic First Fleet/Imperial Forward Command (Kuat) and Republic Hyperspace Armada/Imperial First Mobile Fleet (PVE Space)

- Class-ships should be added to Hangar, with Ship/Fleet requisitions replacing Ship Part upgrades, PVE on-rails space missions should grant Ship/Fleet Requisitions upon completition

- Starfighter customizations as rewards added in multiple sections of the game

- Conquests should emphasize GSF way more

- Hangars should be legacy/faction wide to encourage GSF play on all characters

- 'physical' Hangar-Strongholds within Fleet space should be added where our actual customized Starfighters could be displayed, additional rooms could be unlocked with Fleet Requisitions instead of Credits

- Fleet Requisitions donatable to Guilds as an option to unlock more rooms on Guildships

- I'm not even mentioning PVE Starfighter/off-rails space as its obvious but will likely never happen

 

etc. etc. Strongholds expansion was succesful because the Strongholds, decorations, crafting and Conquests got integrated within the rest of the game. Starfighter needs the same.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Pietrastor

[phalczen]

I would add to the suggestion list:

 

1. Queueing solo should reward more Requisition than queuing as a group, since it entails greater risk.

2. Agree completely with the idea of GSF awarding the rep tokens for Kuat and on rails. I would have initially suggested the contrary, but when you first talk with Admirals Aygo or Ranken for the KDY flashpoint intro, they even tell you that you could help by hopping into a starfighter yourself. Additionally, KDY Construction Kit tokens need to able to be bought with Requisition. This is ESPECIALLY in light of the fact that the ONLY paint job accessible outside of the cartel market is a bomber paint job that requires the KDY construction kit to buy, the only starfighter-related stronghold decorations use Fleet Comms (or KDY kits), and the only pilot suits available outside of the cartel market are social rewards or on-rails reputation rewards. It is an oversight at best and a relative travesty at worst to have no GSF unique rewards like ...

3. More stronghold decorations, more pilot suits/naval uniforms, more paint jobs, color modules, gas canisters, engine reactants for which we can use Requisition and/or Fleet Commendations.

[jojobanutz]

I would add to the suggestion list:

 

1. Queueing solo should reward more Requisition than queuing as a group, since it entails greater risk.

2. Agree completely with the idea of GSF awarding the rep tokens for Kuat and on rails. I would have initially suggested the contrary, but when you first talk with Admirals Aygo or Ranken for the KDY flashpoint intro, they even tell you that you could help by hopping into a starfighter yourself. Additionally, KDY Construction Kit tokens need to able to be bought with Requisition. This is ESPECIALLY in light of the fact that the ONLY paint job accessible outside of the cartel market is a bomber paint job that requires the KDY construction kit to buy, the only starfighter-related stronghold decorations use Fleet Comms (or KDY kits), and the only pilot suits available outside of the cartel market are social rewards or on-rails reputation rewards. It is an oversight at best and a relative travesty at worst to have no GSF unique rewards like ...

3. More stronghold decorations, more pilot suits/naval uniforms, more paint jobs, color modules, gas canisters, engine reactants for which we can use Requisition and/or Fleet Commendations.

 

Hi,

Just want to add my 2 cents to your points.

 

Point 1: I disagree strongly with this, it makes no sense to penalise people for grouping in an MMO.

 

Point 2: I agree that Reputation should be given that would allow access to the rewards that can be earned through 'Space on Rails'. However the underlined part of your point is incorrect. There are 4 Pilot suits that can be bought with the Fleet Comms you earn from GSF Dailies and Weeklies. Go check the Vendor beside the 'On Rails' Rep vendor. Civilian Pilot, Pilot, Rep Pilot and Imp Pilot suits are all there. I've already bought one of them

 

Point 3: I agree, all good suggestions.

 

Finally:

My suggestion for a quick and relatively easy way for the Dev's to make an immediate impact to the viabilty and playability of GSF, would be to allow all battles to be Cross-Faction (training flights if you will). Much like Odessan WZ. This alone would make pops much more frequent and better balanced.

 

[Maulkat]

Finally:

My suggestion for a quick and relatively easy way for the Dev's to make an immediate impact to the viabilty and playability of GSF, would be to allow all battles to be Cross-Faction (training flights if you will). Much like Odessan WZ. This alone would make pops much more frequent and better balanced.

 

 

Yes and no, Jojo. As in ground pvp, the match maker isn't going to break a group of four up and split them on different sides. If there are only those four pilots that are good in queue, then no matter how the opposition is split between factions, the group is going to win usually. More than cross faction is needed the save this game.

[Lendul]

Yes and no, Jojo. As in ground pvp, the match maker isn't going to break a group of four up and split them on different sides. If there are only those four pilots that are good in queue, then no matter how the opposition is split between factions, the group is going to win usually. More than cross faction is needed the save this game.

Cross faction is not a solution, but it would still be an improvement.

[HuaRya]

Agreed on the New Vendor concept - It would be nice to have a chance to get those ultra rare gas canister and engine colors that only exist in out of circulation cartel packs. Possibly even a grind for an entirely new kind of ship or companion unique to GSF.

 

Agreed on smaller maps that don't require as many players for quicker pops

 

Agreed on different objectives like defending a space station, or captial ships or convoys from the enemy team

May I suggest:

 

Matches with mixed teams of pub/imp vs pub/imp, this would help the faction lopsided servers

[sharpenedstick]

It's important to remember that we probably aren't ever going to get any large, meaningful update to GSF.

 

Ever.

 

Requests like whole new areas (physical hangars people can walk around in) are nice, but just not in the cards. Instead, we should aim for small changes that require no additional art or graphics. Preferably just math tweaks, as that's simply a matter of searching the code and swapping numbers.

[RickDagles]

I think there's still a small tiny little glimmer of hope for Strikes to be balanced, but I obviously expect nothing. Edited August 9, 2016 by RickDagles

[PlagaNerezza]

Just get rid of the grind. It serves no purpose at all other than annoy you. If GSF is getting zero development and what we see today is effectively all its going to be give out all mastered ships. There is no reason for anything other than selecting the components and style of flying you want for your ship.

 

About the only thing this does it get rid of stock nights.

[Slurmez]

It was a commercial disaster, a twitchy game mode with a massive pain threshold for anyone coming into try it means casuals dont bother to stay which means there is hardly anyone playing the mode at all, "sniper" ships one shotting you makes the mode a joke as well.

 

Enjoy what you have, there is virtually no chance of resources being diverted to this mode again

[AlrikFassbauer]

Point 1: I disagree strongly with this, it makes no sense to penalise people for grouping in an MMO.

 

The opposite could be said as well. I always read people insisting on other like "go into a group or quit the MMO !" NOt this harsh, not in these words, but broken down, this is basically the message people get who want to experience an MMO in "solo mode". It's the opposite of MMO people wanting offline RPGs to have MP mode.

 

Now, new players might buoy this up some, however a team with even just 2-3 vets, not even in upgraded ships, can completely stomp an average team, and just embarrassingly curb stomp a team with mostly newbies. This results in situations like I have experienced this last week, where I have played 10 matches and been close to winning on one, and actually won only one. Records like this discourage players from queuing, which increases queue times, which decreases players queuing, so on so forth.

 

Veterans don't seem to care about this.

 

I re-ried GSF for the D-L Event, but I found that nothing has changed. As with 2 years ago, Veterans are still destroying Newbies, making them quit, essentially leaving GSF as an game for them alone. An Veterans-only game. Nice for them.

 

"sniper" ships one shotting you makes the mode a joke as well.

 

The "sniper hip" is the only one with which I have the smallest kind of a chance against veterans. Everything else : No.

Edited August 13, 2016 by AlrikFassbauer

[DegenerateScum]

I would say GSF is one of the main reasons I still play the game. It is disappointing for me to see its current state. I believe everyone here has good ideas, and I agree with them. I like the idea of just smaller groups on possibly smaller maps. In addition since the maps are smaller maybe there can be more made including a few other scenarios along with capture the satellites and straight deathwatches. I also like the idea of having legacy star fighter cause it is a pain in the as to have multiple characters and not be able to have my ships I EARNED already.

[MaximilianPower]

Veterans don't seem to care about this.

 

Sigh. You are generalizing.

 

Lots of vets go out of their way to group with new/less experienced folk, and dispense tips/info. And not to stomp them into oblivion. Sure, there are those who wreck noobs with impunity, but don't lump us all together. Tell us where you play (and when) and we can try to set you up with a group that won't get crushed over and over again.

[Storm-Cutter]

What we're all looking for is an improvement on the game-mode that is GSF that:

 

a) Takes zero Dev time

and

b) Costs Zero studio money.

 

Their lack of interest speaks volumes on how much they value this aspect of the game.

 

FWIW I doubt there will ever be another GSF patch - even to iron out a few of the known bugs/ niggles/ imbalances. - The only thing the community can do is keep holding rookie events / strike only nights / training sessions and the rest. - And try not to farm obvious newbs in order to simply fluff their numbers.

 

 

I just started a new character on a new server and don't think the grind is that bad to kit out one ship to mastery. If you have spare ccs to spend you can speed it up considerably.

 

IMHO some people expect to go toe-to-toe with veterans from the start, rather than taking small steps and backing off when outnumbered. - learn to be a good wingman rather than strive to be an instant ace. There's no shame in holding a node with another pilot who will take on attackers, while you defend; or taking on lone raiders trying to harass your gunships in TDM for instance.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Storm-Cutter

[Magira]

GSF is PVP and in PVP gear differences have no place. Everything should be free from the start.

[Storm-Cutter]

GSF is PVP and in PVP gear differences have no place. Everything should be free from the start.

 

in ground PvP you have to play for the best gear - but if bolster was perfect the step up would be marginal. - you also have to earn credits or craft to augment all your gear, and work for Datacrons and buy /make stims.

 

The legacy of ground PvP was that BW made it a long grind of different gear to artificially create longevity.

That carried over to GSF when it launched.

 

But as I said, everyone starts with stock ships. - and for the most part experience > mastered ships. - Everyone has the chance to contribute, play the objectives and listen to the more experienced players. That they choose to kamikaze into enemy nests or into GS range or enemy capital ship turrets, or stray away from the group and hit stationary objects is a matter of skill more then it is about gear.

 

I agree that mastered GS 1-shotting stock scouts isn't a great design -( or indeed other DPS burst combos) but after a match or two, people should learn not to put themselves in harm's way in paper-thin scouts. ( And as a scout pilot 90% of the time even I forget on new characters sometimes that I'm a lot more vulnerable).

 

I have maybe >20 mastered ships spread over a 1/2 dozen characters - but that's my reward for 1000s of games played and 100s of hours in the pilot's seat.

 

OTOH a small buff to newbies would help a bit. - as has been discussed before.

 

BW stopped supporting GSF a long time ago, and probably will never return to it - so it's up to the pilots to make the best of what we've got. - and admirably some of the veterans, and regular posters here are trying to do just that.

[Magira]

in ground PvP you have to play for the best gear - but if bolster was perfect the step up would be marginal. - you also have to earn credits or craft to augment all your gear, and work for Datacrons and buy /make stims.

 

Yes, here that is so. Here is also no real PVP. Only a Premade Farming Ground without any matchmaking. By this one should certainly not orient.

[Storm-Cutter]

Yes, here that is so. Here is also no real PVP. Only a Premade Farming Ground without any matchmaking. By this one should certainly not orient.

 

That maybe true on a server that was originally PvP focused. - But where I play it's in Europe and on a server for PvE - and the factions are more-or-less evenly matched.

 

I can't understand why people are sore about having to play matches to improve one's ships. It's no different to leveling a character from 1-65 or getting the best gear from doing ops or fighting scores of games for PvP gear.

 

That there is a grind is a throwback to older MMOs - coz grinds make people sub longer in the sub-only model. - we are perhaps victims of that legacy. - But you'll have to wait for the next generation of MMO for that to change- it won't disappear in this one.

 

But I do agree that stock ships in a newcomer's hands are easy prey. - that's why I encourage newcomers to stay back, play defensively, cover the vets at the front-line and let the req tick up with dailies and weeklies rather than go all-out all-guns-blazing into the middle of brutal dogfights before they've at least upgraded a few components on their ships.

 

I think the bonus for your first match of 5000 req and the first daily is more than enough to get you started. - If newbies decide to spend it all on RFL upgrades instead of decent armour or evasion, that's down to player choice. - There are plenty of free guides on upgrading right here in these forums.

 

Rafe Zetter said to Alex Ryder in The Dark Wheel "You gotta get yourself an iron *** " it was sound advice in 1984 and it is still true in 2016.

 

*** = slang word for posterior

 

Edited August 16, 2016 by Storm-Cutter

[SeCKSEgai]

Sigh. You are generalizing.

 

Lots of vets go out of their way to group with new/less experienced folk, and dispense tips/info. And not to stomp them into oblivion. Sure, there are those who wreck noobs with impunity, but don't lump us all together. Tell us where you play (and when) and we can try to set you up with a group that won't get crushed over and over again.

 

I recall Despon putting forth plenty of effort to help newer pilots before running out of patience. I haven't seen him in a long while since though I fly a fraction of what I used to.

 

There are times where I'll net almost 30 kills and still lose the match because of how one-sided the teams are with a group on the opposing end. Then there are matches where I'll hold back on the aggression because its blatantly obvious that while I could rack up 20-30 kills or race my teammates on kill counts I take it easier as I already know the opposing side is miserable.

 

But even with that said I will still let loose from time to time despite knowing my team has a major adavantage.

 

The reality is the majority of folks try GSF to get that satisfaction of blowing up other ships, but new players are handicapped so hard that most are "trained" to stay away within their first few matches. People argue that they wouldn't have stuck it out anyway - but with a community already as small as ours we have to nuture any potential interest when we can.

 

The other day I took a guildie in to gsf for the sake of helping her with conquest points. Got her into a legion and her railgun sentry upgrade and you could hear the joy in her voice when her sentry drone killed the pilot trying to shoot at her.

 

Earlier yesterday I was finishing a daily/weekly and was facing a premade group - while it wasn't a group of aces, every teammate of mine had just 3 ships. We had lost the previous match and never was able to offer any significant resistance. The match was already lost before it began. The second match was so one-sided that if I had not been there the team would not have broken a little over 10 kills to their 50.

 

While that's just a very small sample size - it's the reality of how newer pilots experience GSF. Most players make a decision on GSF based on a handful of experiences and most come to the conclusion its not worth it. And knowing what I do know about our small community, I DO NOT BLAME THEM one bit.

 

I can't claim innocence myself as I've been one of those pilots to dominate on more than one occasion in a one-sided match. Sometimes I'll just want to fly a ship I enjoy. But I do try to stay mindful of the competition. I avoid my gunship entirely against teams of new pilots because it just seems cruel to me to obliterate people who don't stand a chance before they even know where you are. At least if I take a mastered scout, I still have to aim, pursue, evade etc. They can see me coming and react, even if they are shooting at me well out of range and have no idea about how accuracy and evasion works. They can try to dodge blaster fire and possibly learn to use their missle breaks. Maybe, even inspire someone to want to learn to be able to fly at that level as others did for me.

 

But the queue times on the most populated server have suffered. Beating up on teams that have no chance has definitely played a major role in that. Sure we could write it off as server population decline or the lack of support of GSF. But we veterans are all aware of that unfortunate reality.

 

The thing that's always annoyed me the most is how some veteran pilots will have this mindset that by bringing some of the best pilots they have to offer, real competition will suddenly show up out of the blue. Instead they just beat up on people who have no means to compete on their level, lacking the skill, experience and upgrades to be a meaningful challenge. Realizing they cannot compete, those that continue to fly will swap to the other side so as to at least have a chance to win with the strong group of pilots.

 

All that could be avoided by people taking an active effort in evening teams - but winning is more important than nurturing the fading community. I get that people want to enjoy their time spent, but you can't enjoy gsf if no one wants to fly with or against you either.

 

The LvD event has gotten people to fly in GSF that would never have otherwise. Yet, despite the requirement and the solid experience gain GSF is less popular than it's ever been. I have no means to provide solid figures to back that statement - what I can do is base it off the queue and lack of pops. Certain times of day would have one or more matches in progress. Not anymore.

 

Everyone wants to have fun - but if you always stack the teams in your favor to win, you eventually realize that sooner or later people stop showing up to lose for your amusement.

[dikki]

Puzzles me as generally I am not a big pvp'er in any game but GSF is really approachable and on a good match - terrific fun. For me it's main issues are it's very harsh on a new player - your just meat for the grinder so something to soothe the initial experience for a new player would be good. The other thing would be to do something about Gunships as they are just too OP and too impacting. Good matches tend to be ones for me where there's minimal people sitting way out one shotting people. The best are where you have the full twist and turn dogfights. Its an old issue though with the sniper principle and isn't new - had an impact on games like BF 1942 and MOH - If too OP it's a game change and just needs to be better balanced.

 

Don't think it would kill them to give us a couple of new maps as well ...

 

Please use my referral link lovely people :D http://www.swtor.com/r/zS8Mgk :D

[studiablo]

Best idea yet, is making hangers legacy wide, this week is GSF on the Conquest, and I would love to play it with all my characters, but only 1 has mastered ships.

 

Join my guild if you want to team up. We are on UK server Dreads from Freedom Nadd

[Storm-Cutter]

Best idea yet, is making hangers legacy wide, this week is GSF on the Conquest, and I would love to play it with all my characters, but only 1 has mastered ships.

 

Join my guild if you want to team up. We are on UK server Dreads from Freedom Nadd

 

People have been requesting legacy-wide hangars or transferrable requisition since the start. -

BW thought that using CCs to move req around on one character was a great idea. Unfortunately trying to blatantly monetize something you're about to abandon is rarely profitable, or ends well.

 

So we're stuck with this horrible legacy of corporate greed.

[darkbolly]

The Problem with GSF players is...we dont complain enough!!....pvp players complain about everything and with big numbers...so that automaticly get on top of the complain pile.....so come on pilots!! send more complains....and lets get some new gsf maps and options.....also we need like in wz...a sort of ranks...so newbees dont keep up fighting masterd pre made groups....do that and gsf wil become active with newbees again to