Please Make Hard Mode Flashpoints Worth it.

[Tsetso]

The difficulty stems from a few things. Mostly notably, lack of proper roles. You can quece for a HM FP and find yourself in a group lacking a healer or a tank or in many cases, both. Leaving groups of 4 DPSers going at the HM flashpoints. A futher proof of the lesser difficulty of HM FPS compared to Operations is while its possible to do HM FPs with only DPSers, you could not get away with getting through a whole Operation with only DPS [there are no kolto stations in Operations]. You might get thru one easy Operation boss like that with very skilled players but 95% of the time you can't.

That's simply not true. We're not talking about TFP. HMFPs require trinity. If you have a good healer you can probably get it done faster without a proper tank but you definitely cannot do it with 4 dps. There are also no kolto stations on HMFPs. And SM OPs are definitely easier than most of the HMFPs. As a matter of fact people regularly underman them with only 4 players.

[yeldarbnotned]

I do agree that HM FP's have become devalued to the point where there are largely ignored by the majority of the playerbase. And I believe, overall, that is not healthy for the game long term as they are a far better "bridge" between the easier game content and more difficult endgame content than anything else in the game - including SM Ops and Eternal Championship.

 

But the issue is not so simple as adjusting the rewards. In fact, I think that's a horrible solution, if nothing else is changed.

 

Reality is that the entire endgame structure is broken. Beyond broken. Any solution to any of the current issues needs to start with this fact.

 

Simply put, as long as HM EV/KP reward 224 gear, HMFP's will be irrelevant. And as long as bolster exists in Operations in its current state, HMFP's will be irrelevant.

 

I can understand and empathize with the idea of making Operations more accessible to more people. I truly can.

 

But there is more than one path to doing this, and the path we are currently on has caused far more problems than it has solved. It seems to me that a path where players have incentive to develop a minimal threshold of comprehension about their class, group class mechanics and the encounters themselves will lead to far more participation, success and enjoyment. Anyone who has experienced group play outside of guild/teamplay has to recognize the playerbase is currently woefully under-prepared to contribute at any sort of meaningful level.

 

My suggestion is that EV/KP should be nothing more than a weekly, separate from all other existing Operations content and should reward nothing but 208/216 non set gear, decorations and commendations. It should serve as an introduction to meaningful Operations content - not as such content. Because it is not.

 

HM FP's should drop 216 MK-2 gear. The groupfinder needs to be split into tiers, with places like LI and BH separate from places like Battle of Ilum and Foundry. The upper tier should be 65 only, have no bolster and drop 216 token pieces off the last boss.

 

Bolster is fine for things like EV/KP. But it has no place in the rest of Operations content. Having SM operations filled with level 52 players makes no sense. These players belong in Flashpoints.

 

And lastly, I would get rid of Priority Operations entirely. It takes away meaningful choice for groups - they can't focus on the Operations they want to, rather they feel pressure to do something different each week. I'm sorry but the idea that players should be focusing on obtaining 224 gear is just a destructive mindset. Players should be focused on beating bosses. The gear comes to groups that can do that.

 

Preach It Brother, Preach it!

[trashy_spartan]

If you like a challenge, try doing Hard Mode Lost Island. Not many people can say they completed it after the 4.0 NGE

 

HM LI is a snooze fest because it has been nerfed to ground really hard. It's only challenging 2 manning it and yet the real difficult boss is Lorick.

[LyraineAlei]

I agree with the part of making hm flashpoints viable. Recently i took a quest about the raghoul problem and crazy professor who spreads the desease .There is only one way to complete this quest - completing two hm fp ( i really don't know why these two fp are only available in hard mode ) but anyway i waited 5 hours in gf que and still no procs... it was t3m4 server and it is quite populated. HM fp should be worth doing them lol. Pls devs do something

 

I did that questline solo (there was no solo mode or Tactical for some reason on Kaon, and I don't remember if Lost island had Tactical/Solo/HM options off hand but I solo'd that one as well), so Hard Mode wasn't required (as solo was a cake walk at 65 with iLevel 20-something Aric tanking as I healed/DPS'd for it all.

 

But HM FPs could use some real love.

[Transcendent]

I liked the gear progression of that time period (1.0 - 1.7.3).

 

126 (Tionese - SM level 50 Flashpoints, later given for free)

136 (Columi - HM Flashpoint end boss)

136 (Columi - SM EV/KP/EC)

140 (Rakata - HM Lost Island end boss)

140 (Rakata - HM EV/KP, SM TfB)

146 (Campaign - HM EC)

150 (Dread Guard - HM TfB)

150 (Dread Guard - NM EC)

 

As far as set bonuses go, you also have to remember that the free Tionese gear had a set bonus. So every level 50 had access to set bonus gear so long as they were willing to look ugly. The main benefit of running HM EC/TfB was to get set bonus armoring to put in your favorite cosmetic gear.

 

I think this is part of the problem, there isn't really a gear progression at all now. If you don't run OPs above SM then you don't need anything above 208 (level sync), if you run HM flashpoints you don't need anything above 200. If you run tactical flashpoints that have not been adjusted for 4 dps, well, that's your own problem.

 

Really, the HM flashpoints should drop 216 set bonus gear on the last boss, so players can progress into HM OPs a little bit quicker. It gives a different avenue into HM OPs and makes HM flashpoints a little more relevant.

[Khevar]

I think this is part of the problem, there isn't really a gear progression at all now. If you don't run OPs above SM then you don't need anything above 208 (level sync), if you run HM flashpoints you don't need anything above 200. If you run tactical flashpoints that have not been adjusted for 4 dps, well, that's your own problem.

 

Really, the HM flashpoints should drop 216 set bonus gear on the last boss, so players can progress into HM OPs a little bit quicker. It gives a different avenue into HM OPs and makes HM flashpoints a little more relevant.

I suppose.

 

I have a gut feeling that small measures won't actually do anything. Philosophically, the big change with 4.0 is "gear doesn't matter". Between super companions, bolster and easy operations dropping BiS, there's just no reason to care about gear at all. At least, no gameplay-mechanics reason.

 

I don't see any way to resolve the OP's request of "make Hard Mode Flashpoints worth it" without drastic changes to the way the game works these days.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Khevar

[TUXs]

Really, the HM flashpoints should drop 216 set bonus gear on the last boss, so players can progress into HM OPs a little bit quicker. It gives a different avenue into HM OPs and makes HM flashpoints a little more relevant.

I agree. Right now they're meaningless.

[Andryah]

I suppose.

 

I have a gut feeling that small measures won't actually do anything. Philosophically, the big change with 4.0 is "gear doesn't matter". Between super companions, bolster and easy operations dropping BiS, there's just no reason to care about gear at all. At least, no gameplay-mechanics reason.

 

I don't see any way to resolve the OP's request of "make Hard Mode Flashpoints worth it" without drastic changes to the way the game works these days.

 

^^ agree with this assessment.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

I think this is part of the problem, there isn't really a gear progression at all now. If you don't run OPs above SM then you don't need anything above 208 (level sync), if you run HM flashpoints you don't need anything above 200. If you run tactical flashpoints that have not been adjusted for 4 dps, well, that's your own problem.

 

Really, the HM flashpoints should drop 216 set bonus gear on the last boss, so players can progress into HM OPs a little bit quicker. It gives a different avenue into HM OPs and makes HM flashpoints a little more relevant.

 

The only way this would be doable, is if there was a lockout from getting set gear on last boss. Otherwise people would just have to farm 4 HM FPs and have the same gear that it takes longer for OPs. I mean I find it hilarious on one side, people freaking out because every 2 months you can do two ACTUAL HM OPs to get 224 gear, but see no issue giving set bonus gear in FPs where there is no lockout.

[LyraineAlei]

The only way this would be doable, is if there was a lockout from getting set gear on last boss. Otherwise people would just have to farm 4 HM FPs and have the same gear that it takes longer for OPs. I mean I find it hilarious on one side, people freaking out because every 2 months you can do two ACTUAL HM OPs to get 224 gear, but see no issue giving set bonus gear in FPs where there is no lockout.

 

Likely two different crowds of Ops runners.

Maybe not set gear, but gear that's of the same item ranking, but not quite as good? Like more stats in ... IDK, Endurance, I think is one people have the great Mastery v Endurance choice making to do. Or more in Crit, but not as much in Alacrity.

Edited August 4, 2016 by LyraineAlei

[Transcendent]

I would be fine and dandy if story mode operations were overall in design harder than flashpoints, but they simply aren't, and while it takes longer to organize more people, does it really matter when they only need to pull 4k DPS when they need 5.5k for HM FPs? Unless they remove the insane bolster or nerf it harder than General Grievous from the 2d to the 3d series, hard mode flashpoints will always be harder and require more effort, and the more effort should lead to more reward.

 

Well, I found it quicker to get an OPs group going to finish off the last part of the DvL Legendary acehivement (aside from Chapter 16) tonight, than to wait for a HM FP pop. So that's two thing already easier about OPs.

 

I found the HM flashpoints (aside from the first boss in Bloodhunt) to be easier than Tactical Flashpoints (bosses need serious tweaking to be viable for 4 low level dps), and about on par with the mobs in an OP, bosses slightly easier in a HM FP ... except a couple of notable exceptions such as the first boss in Blood Hunt / last boss in Manaan (taunts...).

 

So I'm not really seeing why the bosses in a HM flashpoint can't drop 216 Defiant Gear, and the last boss a 216 token. It's slightly less than a SM OP drops, but helps gear players for those.

 

Also, something completely off-topic. WTFH did BioWare do to Kephess in TFB SM? They've turned it into the most boring fight mechanics ever for the first half..... way to go.....

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

That's simply not true. We're not talking about TFP. HMFPs require trinity. If you have a good healer you can probably get it done faster without a proper tank but you definitely cannot do it with 4 dps. There are also no kolto stations on HMFPs. And SM OPs are definitely easier than most of the HMFPs. As a matter of fact people regularly underman them with only 4 players.

 

I think perhaps you misread my post. In it I stated that HMFPS are hampered by the lack of a Trinity and it is a contributing factor as to why some groups may find some of the HMFPs difficult.

 

That said, however, there is not one HMFP that can't be done with any role configuration, even all DPS. I know this because I've done all the HM FPS wherein there was no trinity. While I agree a healer makes it much easier, you can do any of them with all DPS.

 

You are correct that there are cases where people do sm OPS with less than 8, but in those cases the people are well geared and with above average skill with their class. That said, people are not "regularly" doing an operation with only four people. That is anything but common, and in almost all instances where it does occur, the four people who are doing are all extremely skilled on their class and spec and geared excellently. Try pugging an operation with only four random people. 99.9% of the time you will fail to complete the op. Those rare instances where people four man an operation 90% of those are doing EV or KP which everyone knows are extremely easy. The difference is that you actually can do all the HM FPS with all DPS, wherein you would be extremely hard pressed to do any Operations with only DPS.

 

HM FPs are not too hard. They are perfectly doable with any role configuration. It may be more challangeing with all DPS, but there is no legitimate excuse in not being able to complete them. Sucess or failure rests in the hands of the players. As a matter of fact there are some people who find HM FPs too easy. To this point I include a link to the thread where people are calling for an increase in the difficulty of HM FPS - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=888589

 

That some people have difficulty in completing HM FPs is unquestionable. As in the case of Operations as well, they are called Hard mode for a reason. They're not supposed to be easy. There isnt one boss in any HM FP that has a difficult DPS check. If the DPS can't reach 2.5k, thats not the fault of the HM FP design.

 

People have varying degrees of skill. Some people are new to the game, this is the first time playing a specific class, people are still learning in some cases which is perfectly natural. We all started sometime. But people in those cateogries simply don't have enough experience yet to meet the requirements of a HM. Again, not a design fault.

It's about the people and that holds equally true for Operations. But I do not agree that there is any HM FP that is more difficult than any Operation. In that regard I'm basing it on personal experience. There are a ton of people who get thru HM FPs even with all dps.

[Tsetso]

That said, however, there is not one HMFP that can't be done with any role configuration, even all DPS. I know this because I've done all the HM FPS wherein there was no trinity. While I agree a healer makes it much easier, you can do any of them with all DPS.

 

I call BS on that one. Make a video of 4 dps doing BH or AoT HM to prove this.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Tsetso

[Mowermanx]

snipped for brevity .

 

So much BS in this post I dont think its worth arguing.. Youre far too deluded.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Mowermanx

[Mowermanx]

I call BS on that one. Make a video of 4 dps doing BH or AoT HM to prove this.

 

Don't bother arguing with the troll.

[Tsetso]

Don't bother arguing with the troll.

 

You;re probably right, i feel stupid for taking the bait

[OrmEmber]

HM-FP used to be worth it? When? I used to solo HM-FP before lvl-sync. And I miss doing it very much, but I don't remember them ever being what you would term as 'worth it'. It was mearly a way to extend what was possible on my own, and to help me hone my tanking skillz. Now those pointless FP's are, well..pointless. To me anyway. There is no solo hard-***** anymore. Its faceroll tacticals or almost faceroll operations. NiM seems to be the only place left for a challange...and I have to suffer others to do it...urgh..dirty Edited August 5, 2016 by OrmEmber

[Tsetso]

HM-FP used to be worth it? When? I used to solo HM-FP before lvl-sync. And I miss doing it very much, but I don't remember them ever being what you would term as 'worth it'.

 

At launch. People would normally run the HMFPs to gear for OPs. They were dropping tionese and columi gear i think. And LI HM last boss dropped rakata chest(which was bis at that time)

[OrmEmber]

At launch. People would normally run the HMFPs to gear for OPs. They were dropping tionese and columi gear i think. And LI HM last boss dropped rakata chest(which was bis at that time)

 

ooooh fair enough. I was there at launch but I lost interest before that point. The game was lacking until it had been out 2 or 3 years to me.

[TUXs]

The only way this would be doable, is if there was a lockout from getting set gear on last boss. Otherwise people would just have to farm 4 HM FPs and have the same gear that it takes longer for OPs. I mean I find it hilarious on one side, people freaking out because every 2 months you can do two ACTUAL HM OPs to get 224 gear, but see no issue giving set bonus gear in FPs where there is no lockout.

I agree. There would need to be at least a weekly tied to it.

[Transcendent]

I agree. There would need to be at least a weekly tied to it.

 

They could do it slightly differently to having a lockout or weekly tied to the HM flashpoints. Just throwing it out there, as other games don't limit gear progression to weekly (it's pretty archaic to do so considering legacy gear anyway).

 

You could simply have 216 gear / 216 token gear that is slightly different to operations, instead of having more Mastery than Endurance, flip it the other way around, so the HM flashpoints specifically give more Endurance than Mastery. As well as still being able to obtain the set bonus, players also gain extra endurance so when they do go into an operation, that one "little mistake" doesn't cause them to die straight away.

 

I mean it's just a thought, but wouldn't that resolve the issue, by having HM flashpoints drop the same level of gear without a lockout? It wouldn't be BiS gear, however it still gears players up enough so they don't get despondent by wiping constantly when they do go into operations.

 

It also gives Tanks a potential reason to queue for HM flashpoints, knowing they can potentially get mods with more Endurance than Operations gear (assuming they have max mitigation still by not altering tertiary stats on HM flashpoint gear)

Edited August 5, 2016 by Transcendent

[TUXs]

They could do it slightly differently to having a lockout or weekly tied to the HM flashpoints. Just throwing it out there, as other games don't limit gear progression to weekly (it's pretty archaic to do so considering legacy gear anyway).

 

You could simply have 216 gear / 216 token gear that is slightly different to operations, instead of having more Mastery than Endurance, flip it the other way around, so the HM flashpoints specifically give more Endurance than Mastery. As well as still being able to obtain the set bonus, players also gain extra endurance so when they do go into an operation, that one "little mistake" doesn't cause them to die straight away.

 

I mean it's just a thought, but wouldn't that resolve the issue, by having HM flashpoints drop the same level of gear without a lockout? It wouldn't be BiS gear, however it still gears players up enough so they don't get despondent by wiping constantly when they do go into operations.

Great suggestion actually. I'm all for ANYTHING that increases players playing.

[Transcendent]

Great suggestion actually. I'm all for ANYTHING that increases players playing.

 

Too quick to respond, added a bit at the end

[LordMordeth]

I used to love running hard mode flashpoins, especially solo, as liked the challenge of being the healer for bunch of randoms.

 

Usually the runs went fine, sometimes they didn't, but they were fun and getting the loot reward at the end satisfying enough to make the runs worth it, even if it wasn't smooth sailing 100% of the time.

 

Now though, eh.. honestly, why would i bother?

 

The rewards are crap, almost literally and thanks to the queue being lolbolstered 50-65 range, there is zero reason for one to run the flashpoints when you get more gear for half the effort by running some ancient story mode operation.

 

Sadly, like some others have said, just modifying the loot won't fix the hard modes, more would have to be done but it would be a start at least and perhaps in time, few patches down the road, more changes could be made so hard modes would once again be a viable way of gearing for operations.

[LyraineAlei]

They could do it slightly differently to having a lockout or weekly tied to the HM flashpoints. Just throwing it out there, as other games don't limit gear progression to weekly (it's pretty archaic to do so considering legacy gear anyway).

 

You could simply have 216 gear / 216 token gear that is slightly different to operations, instead of having more Mastery than Endurance, flip it the other way around, so the HM flashpoints specifically give more Endurance than Mastery. As well as still being able to obtain the set bonus, players also gain extra endurance so when they do go into an operation, that one "little mistake" doesn't cause them to die straight away.

 

I mean it's just a thought, but wouldn't that resolve the issue, by having HM flashpoints drop the same level of gear without a lockout? It wouldn't be BiS gear, however it still gears players up enough so they don't get despondent by wiping constantly when they do go into operations.

 

It also gives Tanks a potential reason to queue for HM flashpoints, knowing they can potentially get mods with more Endurance than Operations gear (assuming they have max mitigation still by not altering tertiary stats on HM flashpoint gear)

 

While I don't raid, I like how this sounds and it could work into getting HM FPs back into the raiding progression as Operations Training Flashpoints