So...Can We Start Some Developer Discussions/Dialogues Now?

[Darth_Eclipses]

Hello BW,

 

Your fanbase here. I'm pretty sure we can all agree that one of the keys to healthy longevity of a MMO is the communicative level of its developers. Developers engaging its community in dialogue and discussion (twitter and facebook do not facilitate these) is not a privilege, but more of an expectation of an MMO's community. It's not an exaggeration to say that game companies (and their respective games) get reputations based on the levels of developer communications: see TRION-RIFT-AWESOME / SOE-ANYTHING-ATROCIOUSDISASTER.

 

I won't deny that I really hope BW follows RIFT's levels of developer communication, but even if not, I surely hope the status quo (total and utter silence) changes soon.

 

There are tons of benefits to frequent and open developer communication:

 

* Calms the community: helps give us insight on current systems or mechanics and what's in store for the future.

 

* Explains your position: allows the community to see your perspective

 

* Influence: the community needs to feel as if they have a measure of control or influence over the shape and direction of the game. Engaging them in dialogue and then actually implementing their feedback into your direction of the game increases retention.

 

Currently there are some major issues affecting the game and we have no developer communication regarding these.

 

* Lack of World PvP, no incentive (I'm level 50 on a consistently FULL server and I can count the # of times I've WPvP'ed on one hand)

 

* Ability and Combat Unresponsiveness

 

* The, quite frankly, large list of bugs that exist in the game to date - some literally hindering player progression

 

* LvL 50 dailies not updating upon completion, or Level 50 flashpoints with bugged mobs (nice ninja buff in the patch today on Yadira Ban in the HM BT btw )

 

Such threads like this, or this or have gotten lots of attention and would be great to get some developer discussions going on.

 

We need to see developers communicating with us about these things - and discussing with us where we're going to go.

 

So what does this mean?

 

We don't need:

 

Stephen Reid

David Bass

Joveth Gonzalez or

Emmanuel Luscini coming into such threads saying they're gathering the feedback on these issues to report to you some random time some random place in some random way.

 

We do need:

 

Janes Ohlen

Georg Zoeller

Damion Schubert

Gabe Amatangelo - the people who design and develop the game addressing some really core issues in a frank and open way and talking with us on your future designs on how to alleviate them. Especially GZ, DS and GA - there are some really heavy combat bugs right now and we need to see your thoughts on these.

 

No, I don't speak for the whole community, but I do think many would agree that they would like to see these names pop up quite a bit more in threads of game importance.

 

Thankyou and I hope you consider posting much more frequently.

 

Please post if you agree or support.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Darth_Eclipses

[tehmoose]

We're not going to get any of that.

 

We're going to get more twitter posts from @rockjaw.

 

And that's about it.

[Darth_Eclipses]

We're not going to get any of that.

 

We're going to get more twitter posts from @rockjaw.

 

And that's about it.

 

Yeah that is a bit pathetic, but also likely true.

 

I would like to think my thread not totally worthless though, hopefully they pay some attention soon...

 

...I hope...

[Gauvi]

The people you mentioned that we don't need, actually relay information from people you mentioned that we need.

 

Please let them spend time working on the game instead of coming here and reading every single post from people who have no clue about game design.

[Putok]

Some more involvement from the devs in the community would be nice.

[WLpride]

u r not getting dungeon finder.

[Darth_Eclipses]

The people you mentioned that we don't need, actually relay information from people you mentioned that we need.

 

Please let them spend time working on the game instead of coming here and reading every single post from people who have no clue about game design.

 

Do they need to read every single post? No, of course not.

 

Should they read the OP of a few prominent threads and write a response? Yes.

 

Do you have to have a clue about game design to know whether or not you like a game? Hello, my friend - wake up.

[lunabaguna]

Problem with developer dialogues is unreasonable expectations. Anything they say will be taken as solid gospel truth. Of they make a mistake, misspeaks, or god forbid change their mind, the community will be up in arms that the developers lied to them. With community managers they can excuse these things much more easily. Plus, devs communicating is time they could be spending working. I've worked for a lot of bosses that wasted time I could spend doing my job with useless questions and prattle. I could only imagine how much worse it would be if I had 2 million people doing this.

 

The entire reason for having a community manager is to make sure devs get the info they need and players get the info they want without keeping devs from doing their job.

Edited December 28, 2011 by lunabaguna

[knatx]

^ Ditto. There is a reason why there are community mangers.

[Nedreep]

Fixing bugs takes time. I am a developer and I can tell you there is no magic wand.

 

My development team has our own version of Steven Reid and we avoid contact with the users aside from a Facebook page.

 

It is sooooo much more efficient to give a bullet list to a PR person and then just get to work.

 

Our PR person passes feedback to us in concise reports. We also take brief looks at what the community is currently talking about. If you try to get too involved in interacting with the users half your day gets consumed before you even know it.

 

Soon it is expected that you will devote half your day to the community. When that happens things stop getting done as quickly or as efficiently as they should.

 

This is compounded by the fact that the leaders who are needed most in development are the ones who have the most time wasted.

[Gauvi]

Do they need to read every single post? No, of course not.

 

Should they read the OP of a few prominent threads and write a response? Yes.

 

Do you have to have a clue about game design to know whether or not you like a game? Hello, my friend - wake up.

 

There are several thousands of threads with suggestions and asking the game designers to read even half of them would take all of their working time.

What you're asking is that they justify every single of their choice and also the reasons why they did not implement such or such feature. That's totally unpractical.

 

Liking a game or not, does not make you someone who has more insight about that game.

You need to know about game design to decide whether something is good or not, whether to implement it or not and decide whether to scrap it or not, taking into account not only gameplay but also business considerations.

 

99% of the people here who suggest features and ask for things have no clue about game design and make absurd demands. I could take every single one of them and provide 10 counter-arguments why they would be bad ideas.

[Darth_Eclipses]

There are several thousands of threads with suggestions and asking the game designers to read even half of them would take all of their working time.

What you're asking is that they justify every single of their choice and also the reasons why they did not implement such or such feature. That's totally unpractical.

 

Liking a game or not, does not make you someone who has more insight about that game.

You need to know about game design to decide whether something is good or not, whether to implement it or not and decide whether to scrap it or not, taking into account not only gameplay but also business considerations.

 

99% of the people here who suggest features and ask for things have no clue about game design and make absurd demands. I could take every single one of them and provide 10 counter-arguments why they would be bad ideas.

 

No, you don't. My god people - communicative developers has been done before (TRION and RIFT) and their game didn't go to hell. It's not a blastering crater with people saying, "Well, if only the developers there talked less to the community...." kind of nonsense.

 

Please stop making excuses for silence. Do they need to read thousands of threads? No. Can they be pinpointed to a thread by the community team? Yes. Will writing up a 15 minute post and checking back on it a few hours later seriously derail their schedule? No.

 

The game design argument is complete trash. They have developers from Mythic working for them and yet they have the weakest PvP here moreso than any MMO I've played. Ever. Game design schooling =/= innate knowledge on how to make a game FUN.

[GeLopez]

They are doing a Reddit chat tomorrow.

[Conundrum-NSA]

Why would they lower themselves to talk to the plebes?

[Gauvi]

No, you don't. My god people - communicative developers has been done before (TRION and RIFT) and their game didn't go to hell. It's not a blastering crater with people saying, "Well, if only the developers there talked less to the community...." kind of nonsense.

 

I am not saying they should not be communicative. I am saying their time would be better spent working on the game instead of coming tell us every day what they are working on.

 

Do you think they are actually twiddling their thumbs while at work ? That they take 4-hours lunch break ? Do you think that Bioware has come this far, with such a near flawless track record by telling the community what they are doing ?

 

No, they get the job done instead of discussing it.

 

Please stop making excuses for silence. Do they need to read thousands of threads? No. Can they be pinpointed to a thread by the community team? Yes. Will writing up a 15 minute post and checking back on it a few hours later seriously derail their schedule? No.

 

If you think that simply reading a few threads and spend a mere 15 mins on a reply would make the game a better place, improve it several folds, then you are very much mistaken.

 

Every word they are putting out carries weight and we have seen that in the past several months. People take things out of context and derail it even when there was no possibility of derailing it to begin with.

 

I'd rather the devs come out and discuss things ONCE they have discussed about it internally, went through meetings and several approval processes and only then, decided it was the right time to tell about it, instead of just putting out information that they are not sure whether it is a good idea or not.

 

And even then, having them to justify every single of their decision is totally impractical.

Have some respect for people doing their job, they are the professionals working on this.

 

If you want more information and more regularly, I'm afraid to tell you that there's only so much work one can do in a single day and for that very reason, it won't happen. And I don't want it to happen.

 

The game design argument is complete trash. They have developers from Mythic working for them and yet they have the weakest PvP here moreso than any MMO I've played. Ever. Game design schooling =/= innate knowledge on how to make a game FUN.

 

Yes, you are a game developer yourself and you know all about the process of making a game fun.

 

Let me tell you, EVERYONE has a billion ideas a day about how to make a game fun. Things people have never done before, things that can change the face of the industry.

However, those never make it to the actual production process because, they are actually not good ideas.

Working as a game developer myself, everyday I see great game ideas getting scraped that will never see the light of the day again because once you start implementing them and test them, they are not actually that fun.

 

And again, simply trying to copy other successful games ideas, thinking it would make yours better, is a naive thought that is the reason for all the crappy clones of games you see out there.

 

Just look at the several hundreds of FPSes that copy each other, how many are actually innovative ?

Edited December 28, 2011 by Gauvi

[LoL-K-Noob]

Have you seen the people who post on these forums? Anything said in yellow will be blown out of proportion and countless QQ threads will be made. I think its very wise to avoid the forums like a plague or use twitter.

[Shumney]

Dont make this like Rift, where if the devs didn't post 10 times a week people started crying. The community ruined that game.

 

Leave the developing to the developers. They will put info out as it comes out.

 

The biggest mistake they can make now is catering to every cry baby forum troll out here. Blizzard had it right, for awhile anyways, by not folding to every sniffle that came out of the loud minority player base.

[Shumney]

Have you seen the people who post on these forums? Anything said in yellow will be blown out of proportion and countless QQ threads will be made. I think its very wise to avoid the forums like a plague or use twitter.

 

Forums are poison 90% of the time. Watch how out of hand this one gets!

 

The proof will be in the pudding as the game progresses. Them making posts for you to scrutinize on these boards isn't really making the game better or worse.

 

I dont even know why Im reading these boards! They make me sad.

 

Best advice I got about playing online games was avoid the forums, and enjoy the game. Ignorance is bliss.

[Gauvi]

Dont make this like Rift, where if the devs didn't post 10 times a week people started crying. The community ruined that game.

 

Leave the developing to the developers. They will put info out as it comes out.

 

The biggest mistake they can make now is catering to every cry baby forum troll out here. Blizzard had it right, for awhile anyways, by not folding to every sniffle that came out of the loud minority player base.

 

Honestly, I'm not too concerned about Bioware. They know what they're doing and I know they won't screw it up.

 

What could happen however, is that since people who enjoy the game don't come here to complain, you have the impression that it's only negative feedback floating around.

 

All that negativity can get to people who come here once in a while, and they start thinking much like the people who spread all that negativity around.

 

This in turn increases the number of people complaining, leading to further problems and can eventually kill a game.

I've seen it happen before, it was not pretty and I was not happy this happened.

 

Now I regret not voicing myself more back in the day. This time, I'll be sure to make it right.

[Darth_Eclipses]

I am not saying they should not be communicative. I am saying their time would be better spent working on the game instead of coming tell us every day what they are working on.

 

Do you think they are actually twiddling their thumbs while at work ? That they take 4-hours lunch break ? Do you think that Bioware has come this far, with such a near flawless track record by telling the community what they are doing ?

 

Well actually, yes - they have listened to the community in their iterations of series - and when they didn't, we got the disaster that was Dragon Age 2.

 

Furthermore, this isn't a single player game - or at least it isn't meant to be. This is supposed to be an MMO, where feedback is much more important to your future iterations of said MMO, much more so than with a single player game.

[Darth_Eclipses]

Dont make this like Rift, where if the devs didn't post 10 times a week people started crying. The community ruined that game.

 

Whereas here, there is no community - and the developers don't post at all right?

 

Right?

[Gauvi]

Well actually, yes - they have listened to the community in their iterations of series - and when they didn't, we got the disaster that was Dragon Age 2.

 

Furthermore, this isn't a single player game - or at least it isn't meant to be. This is supposed to be an MMO, where feedback is much more important to your future iterations of said MMO, much more so than with a single player game.

 

You make it sound like Bioware got all the success it has had today because of the community.

 

They did not ask for anyone's advice when they launched the first title of series such as Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Night, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Kotor etc

 

You also take one single case where some people did not like the game and make it a generalization.

If you want to take it this way, then I could also point out that they listened to the community while working on BG2 or ME2 and those turned out bad compared to what could have become had they not listened to said community.

 

It's a fact that BG1 > BG2 and ME1 > ME2 in nearly all aspects.

It is very very hard to follow and live up to the expectations when releasing a second installment in a serie.

 

There is also one more thing that is difficult to accept but is just plain fact: the player base does not know what they want or what is fun for them, until they are actually enjoying it. Simply caving in to people' demands won't make your game good, you have to go ahead and surprise the player.

 

I believe it was Shigeru Miyamoto who was quoted saying this, when talking about the success of the DS.

When it was announced, everyone was skeptical and the features were frowned upon. Many people called it a failure even before it was released. Low specs, double screen, stylus etc compared to the more conventional PSP with higher specs and bigger/higher res screen.

Now look at how many DSes are out there and how many people are enjoying it.

[JJDrakken]

Bioware is not known to be very open communicative. In fact they are known to turtle up & wait till the wave of whatever has passed, then they'll peek out, announce some random DLC & rinse repeat.

 

 

 

JJ

[Lord_Itharius]

/signed

 

/signedsignedsigned

 

Preach it, OP.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Lord_Itharius

[Lord_Itharius]

It's a fact that BG1 > BG2 and ME1 > ME2 in nearly all aspects.

 

Oh, is that a fact? Because I enjoyed Baulder's Gate 2 more than the original, and I also preferred ME2 over ME1. In fact, critical reviews were much higher for ME2 than for ME1. THAT'S a fact.