Heroic payout nerf

[lightSaberAddiCt]

In the forum.. perhaps. In game.. hard to tell. I do know not everyone uses the heroics as their main piggy bank.. but certainly many do. So I think "exponentially" is a bit over the top.

 

No question players quickly figured out what the biggest and easiest piggy bank in game was post 4.0. Once players get addicted to a credit pool... many do not take it well when the pool dries up some. Which is why the studio should not be waiting 9+ months to correct something that is injecting more new credits into the economy than any other path. There are so many new credits in game now from massive level capped numbers of players hitting heroics and hitting them hard... it probably does not matter much which way they go on this now. But I bet when 5.0 drops.. those heroic derived credits will get toned down a lot once again, since they can (and do) make wide ranging changes with a new expac release.

 

I actually have been asking in general every night about it during the event, when the worlds are populated. And it has been all negative responses. That was on EH. Also, keep this in mind. I know you have said you are crazy wealthy, but those heroics are important to alot of people just to be able to buy the minimum needs.

Edited June 30, 2016 by lightSaberAddiCt

[Andryah]

those heroics are important to alot of people just to be able to buy the minimum needs.

 

I absolutely understand this.

 

IMO.. people need to diversify their credit generation methods in MMOs. Any given method can go dry or become tedious at any time.

 

AND.. the studio needs to quit releasing content where one play path is a larger source of credits then another. All paths really should be roughly the same really. If we never had rich credits in heroics.. we'd all be busy playing the game and the studio would not be tweaking knobs on credit fountains... and this thread would not exist.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Andryah

[midianlord]

Looks like they're rolling back the change with the next patch; more or less because it wasn't announced. Hunh.

 

No, it's because they got caught trying to lie about it.

 

Anyway, this thread appears to have served its purpose, so....yeah.

[AllisonLightning]

I'm so glad to hear they're getting fixed. The problem's not Heroics so much as the group up multiplier and while I'm worried they'll try and sneak the change back in later, I'm actually going to do a full Heroic run and time myself as well as count the credits I'm rewarded when they put it back as to show once and for all that to earn every last credit scrap throughout the heroics takes far too much effort compared to grouping. It'd help if someone could do the grouping equivalent.

 

Why am I happy but frustrated and scared they'll do it again? I was running the heroic on Ilum and the bonus stage/quest popped up. I was like 'cool, maybe I can increase the total rewards'... the reward was about 3.5 k and I nearly screamed. It was more effort than the entire heroic comparatively and a waste of time.

 

It's only the first few worlds that are a cakewalk for a 65 solo on Heroics... Corellia's only reward when back at pre-nerf values are at about 14k and are the definition of grind factory. Most of the heroics are hard work for a solo player and I say again, it's the grouping rewards that are far out of proportion if people can advertise a full group doing one world's heroics for 500k+ which causes gaming of the system.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

I'm so glad to hear they're getting fixed. The problem's not Heroics so much as the group up multiplier and while I'm worried they'll try and sneak the change back in later, I'm actually going to do a full Heroic run and time myself as well as count the credits I'm rewarded when they put it back as to show once and for all that to earn every last credit scrap throughout the heroics takes far too much effort compared to grouping. It'd help if someone could do the grouping equivalent.

 

Why am I happy but frustrated and scared they'll do it again? I was running the heroic on Ilum and the bonus stage/quest popped up. I was like 'cool, maybe I can increase the total rewards'... the reward was about 3.5 k and I nearly screamed. It was more effort than the entire heroic comparatively and a waste of time.

 

It's only the first few worlds that are a cakewalk for a 65 solo on Heroics... Corellia's only reward when back at pre-nerf values are at about 14k and are the definition of grind factory. Most of the heroics are hard work for a solo player and I say again, it's the grouping rewards that are far out of proportion if people can advertise a full group doing one world's heroics for 500k+ which causes gaming of the system.

 

There is NOTHING that stops you from grouping up for these heroics, and getting the same bonus as everyone else. So, no that is not the issue. The goal of a MMO, is to promote group play, hence the reward for actually grouping. This is not a bonus that is in anyway withheld from you, other then your own choice.

Edited July 1, 2016 by lightSaberAddiCt

[Cubkyle]

I'm so glad to hear they're getting fixed. The problem's not Heroics so much as the group up multiplier and while I'm worried they'll try and sneak the change back in later, I'm actually going to do a full Heroic run and time myself as well as count the credits I'm rewarded when they put it back as to show once and for all that to earn every last credit scrap throughout the heroics takes far too much effort compared to grouping. It'd help if someone could do the grouping equivalent.

 

Why am I happy but frustrated and scared they'll do it again? I was running the heroic on Ilum and the bonus stage/quest popped up. I was like 'cool, maybe I can increase the total rewards'... the reward was about 3.5 k and I nearly screamed. It was more effort than the entire heroic comparatively and a waste of time.

 

It's only the first few worlds that are a cakewalk for a 65 solo on Heroics... Corellia's only reward when back at pre-nerf values are at about 14k and are the definition of grind factory. Most of the heroics are hard work for a solo player and I say again, it's the grouping rewards that are far out of proportion if people can advertise a full group doing one world's heroics for 500k+ which causes gaming of the system.

 

To be fair, the bonus quest for Ilum's Heroic has always been a waste of effort. There are several bonus quests that don't give any credits at all for finishing their final stage, and I swear that had been one of them.

[AllisonLightning]

There is NOTHING that stops you from grouping up for these heroics, and getting the same bonus as everyone else. So, no that is not the issue. The goal of a MMO, is to promote group play, hence the reward for actually grouping. This is not a bonus that is in anyway withheld from you, other then your own choice.

 

Until it's the bonus that likely triggered the nerf in which case it hurts solo players and keeps the main problem intact. I couldn't care less otherwise if I'm earning a smaller amount than a group for a heroic- I do when it's caused the developers to try and pull this on heroics when apparently the main 'too many credits out of line with the game' issue remains with grouping.

 

On a broader scale, I solo and do group play- I solo on heroics and both play styles are supported, I do group stuff- I love playing with my guild but I sub for my own personal enjoyment. I resubbed for both styles being supported, I hope like anything that when summer hits where I live I don't get the migraines I did like last summer so I can remain subbed past end of October on two month non-recurring subs and then pick a six month option when the weather cools down. This game, like it or not attracts people like me who would never touch an MMO under any other circumstance- I still wouldn't touch another MMO and while I'm happy to do group stuff on my own timetable, I certainly wouldn't consider subbing as much as I want to for this game to be like all the other games I groaned, rolled my eyes and told friends I'd rather do laundry over playing. As long as this game supports soloing as much as it does, it will continue to get me coming back and subbing to it when I'm able.

 

I wanted to start trying out Operations and I can't justify the gear repair costs until Heroics are back intact.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Until it's the bonus that likely triggered the nerf in which case it hurts solo players and keeps the main problem intact. I couldn't care less otherwise if I'm earning a smaller amount than a group for a heroic- I do when it's caused the developers to try and pull this on heroics when apparently the main 'too many credits out of line with the game' issue remains with grouping.

 

On a broader scale, I solo and do group play- I solo on heroics and both play styles are supported, I do group stuff- I love playing with my guild but I sub for my own personal enjoyment. I resubbed for both styles being supported, I hope like anything that when summer hits where I live I don't get the migraines I did like last summer so I can remain subbed past end of October on two month non-recurring subs and then pick a six month option when the weather cools down. This game, like it or not attracts people like me who would never touch an MMO under any other circumstance- I still wouldn't touch another MMO and while I'm happy to do group stuff on my own timetable, I certainly wouldn't consider subbing as much as I want to for this game to be like all the other games I groaned, rolled my eyes and told friends I'd rather do laundry over playing. As long as this game supports soloing as much as it does, it will continue to get me coming back and subbing to it when I'm able.

 

I wanted to start trying out Operations and I can't justify the gear repair costs until Heroics are back intact.

 

If the guild is a cool guild, repairs are usually covered by the guild bank. Like our guild, we always try to get people in OPs, first a few stories to get at least their 4 set, then if they want we go to HMs. But we never ask that our members pay for their cost, usually have a good amount set aside in guild bank for it.

 

Just wanted to let you know that if repair cost is your worry, it shouldn't be.

 

It is easy to put the bloated economics of this game on heroics, and even the group bonus. But if they were actually later nerfed, I can tell you that the GTN will not be affected in the cost of items. There are a good number of veterans that literally have billions on hand, and like in the real world, they define the market. The heroics are weekly, so even if someone was dedicated enough to do them all (which kudos to you, I only get through half and make a good living off it, but nothing spectacular. I mean I have 12m on 1 toon, and around the same on my other. And that was all from group bonus. Honestly that is mostly from CM sales. Made a good chunk selling character transfers.

 

But I am by no means a whale with billions. What defines the market, is the uber wealthy, and the credit sellers. Pure and simple. All this nerf did, was hurt a subscriber segment of players, that are trying to make credits legit.

Edited July 1, 2016 by lightSaberAddiCt

[AllisonLightning]

If the guild is a cool guild, repairs are usually covered by the guild bank. Like our guild, we always try to get people in OPs, first a few stories to get at least their 4 set, then if they want we go to HMs. But we never ask that our members pay for their cost, usually have a good amount set aside in guild bank for it.

 

Just wanted to let you know that if repair cost is your worry, it shouldn't be.

 

It is easy to put the bloated economics of this game on heroics, and even the group bonus. But if they were actually later nerfed, I can tell you that the GTN will not be affected in the cost of items. There are a good number of veterans that literally have billions on hand, and like in the real world, they define the market. The heroics are weekly, so even if someone was dedicated enough to do them all (which kudos to you, I only get through half and make a good living off it, but nothing spectacular. I mean I have 12m on 1 toon, and around the same on my other. And that was all from group bonus. Honestly that is mostly from CM sales. Made a good chunk selling character transfers.

 

But I am by no means a whale with billions. What defines the market, is the uber wealthy, and the credit sellers. Pure and simple. All this nerf did, was hurt a subscriber segment of players, that are trying to make credits legit.

 

I know, but I love donating to my guild and not so much taking- I'm like that about some things in real life too. I get stubborn and determined or annoying, depending on who you ask.

 

But I completely agree with your last statement- while I might say the group heroics, it's only in comparison to solo as I blame the credit sellers heavily (I hate them, to channel Anakin for a moment with the right whiny/angst inflection) and am positively seething at the moment when this got put down/will be fixed in a few weeks when the credit sellers spam my inbox and will every day till then... I tear up slightly every time I get a message and it's just someone telling me how cheap it is to risk my account and my details. I can't understand why you would risk so much to buy credits and it annoys me that they carry on untouched while players who are legitimately earning their credits are affected.

 

This would be my first time doing them all once this nerf is reversed- I think I've done almost half of them in the past. The most I've ever had is 6 million credits (earned over multiple weeks and via GTN sales as well), mostly because it took me a while to hit a 65 because of gaps in playing and then a 65 I felt comfortable going faster than snail pace on who tried out the heroics. Most of that went to an armour set I really wanted. Also because I've got a bad habit of buying people's grand chance cubes on GTN, hoping for that one item that scores big.

[Dead-Warrior]

I wanted to start trying out Operations and I can't justify the gear repair costs until Heroics are back intact.

 

 

If you ever want to do Ops be prepared to lose a lot of credits overall... at least after 4.0... before 4.0 you could make a few hundred K from operations due to credits dropped from mobs, but well they removed that pretty darn well.

[IanArgent]

A lotta assumptions that the issue was with the group payout. From what they said, I'd expect that the issue was with the base payout; I never saw a lot of groups doing the Heroics.

 

Again, BW knows this stuff - if it was the amount of money coming into the game from groups, they'd have nerfed the bonus missions, I'd think. This says the base heroic mission payout boost Went Horribly Right; and a lot more credits than expected were coming into the economy from the base mission payout.

[katanaacredus]

If you ever want to do Ops be prepared to lose a lot of credits overall... at least after 4.0... before 4.0 you could make a few hundred K from operations due to credits dropped from mobs, but well they removed that pretty darn well.

 

That is pretty much true of all the pre 4.0 game. All of the nice modable gear that could be legitimately farmed from heroics and FPs is gone. Heroics are now providing primarily below level non-mod gear that I invariably have already surpassed by several levels and other low value vendor trash. The few FPs I ran after the change, the good gear has been replaced by useless below level gear and otherwise low value vendor fodder (if you get any drops in an FP).

 

They would do well by the players to also revert FPs to pre-4.0 level player level based instances with the gear they used to provide, another huge mistake making them all high level that most lower level players get "excused" from them before even starting due to the poorly designed bolstering which does not come close to fully equalizing the low level player to the actual needs of the instance.

[VegasTheLost]

So according to the livestream the payout will be reverted. What I find odd is that groups are formed for credits and not because that heroics are hard to do, hence the name heroic. I mean what kind of logic is this, that encourage grouping to earn more credits and not because the quest is hard and you need more people to do it. I know I will get burned for this, but I will say it: it would be much better to require 2-4 persons to complete a heroic AND earn good money for it, than as it stands now, as earn good money by grouping up for something that was dumbed down and clearly is not a heroic any more.

[IanArgent]

That is pretty much true of all the pre 4.0 game. All of the nice modable gear that could be legitimately farmed from heroics and FPs is gone. Heroics are now providing primarily below level non-mod gear that I invariably have already surpassed by several levels and other low value vendor trash. The few FPs I ran after the change, the good gear has been replaced by useless below level gear and otherwise low value vendor fodder (if you get any drops in an FP).

 

They would do well by the players to also revert FPs to pre-4.0 level player level based instances with the gear they used to provide, another huge mistake making them all high level that most lower level players get "excused" from them before even starting due to the poorly designed bolstering which does not come close to fully equalizing the low level player to the actual needs of the instance.

 

As of one of the earlier 4.x patches, almost all mobs drop on-level loot, including (usually green, sometimes blue, rarely purple, non-modded gear that's appropriate for the character actual level). Including level-appropriate credit and vendor trash as well.

 

The only non-level-appropriate gear I see for rewards any more is stuff from non-heroic quest turn-ins

[NoomiryarZ]

Well we won! Bioware is reversing the change to its pre 4.6 values in Chapter 16! I guess they realized they had to do something and therefore decided to reverse the lesser of the three evils unleashed on their playerbase in 4.6.

[VirtualMorrigan]

IMO.. people need to diversify their credit generation methods in MMOs. Any given method can go dry or become tedious at any time.

 

 

No. I have no intention of "diversifying". I already have a daytime job, I will not go into extended economy simulations in a SF online game. The few hours a week that i have are for playing, not finding loopholes to economically survive. Either there is a method that I can use to cover the repair bills for my gear, or there isn't. If there isn't, I won't play. Since a death in the EC costs more than is earned now by doing one heroic, that is on ice. If I run out of things to do before they change that nonsense, so will my subscription. As simple as that.

[Dragon_Enigma]

I hardly post on the forums at all but after seeing this change i felt that I just had to say something.

Honestly it's a pretty poor move by bioware, punish the players for actually doing the heroics very smart bioware.

now im pretty much not going to bother with them. The more they keep making poor choices like this that hurt the player base the more it just makes me sad it feels like they do not care about there actual player base anymore.

[casirabit]

The problem doing some of the heroics in groups is that some people no matter what you say when you group up with them, they decide they want the bonus even when you say you not interested in the bonus so that is why some people don't want to do groups in heroics.

 

This has happened to me twice. I tell them I running short on time so just want to do the heroic, not the bonus and they say no problem and what in the blazes do they go do, they bonus while I am already doing the heroic and then they fuss....

[IanArgent]

The problem doing some of the heroics in groups is that some people no matter what you say when you group up with them, they decide they want the bonus even when you say you not interested in the bonus so that is why some people don't want to do groups in heroics.

 

This has happened to me twice. I tell them I running short on time so just want to do the heroic, not the bonus and they say no problem and what in the blazes do they go do, they bonus while I am already doing the heroic and then they fuss....

 

The bonus mission is where the money for grouping is - if you don't want the bonus mission, don't group for heroics.

[ConradLionhart]

The reason why heroics pay so well is not due to the base reward. It is due to people grouping up and collecting 4x the credits from the bonus objectives.

 

Right now they are nerfing the base credit reward, but the bonus still gives the same amount of credits, and is now more than the base. It just looks bizarre, how can the bonus pay more than the base mission reward? It should be the other way round.

 

They should nerf the bonus instead of the base.

Edited July 1, 2016 by ConradLionhart

[Focusangel]

They shouldn't nerf anything regarding the heroics until they come up with a fix for the GTN inflation - and heroics are not the cause of it!

[IanArgent]

The reason why heroics pay so well is not due to the base reward. It is due to people grouping up and collecting 4x the credits from the bonus objectives.

 

Right now they are nerfing the base credit reward, but the bonus still gives the same amount of credits, and is now more than the base. It just looks bizarre, how can the bonus pay more than the base mission reward? It should be the other way round.

 

They should nerf the bonus instead of the base.

 

It's not the potential earnings that matter, it's the actual earnings.

 

Gonna throw some algebra up here.

 

Say a player can make X+Y=Z from soloing a heroic, and a group of 4 people can make X+4Y=W each from grouping it.

 

IIRC Y=X, more or less, pre-nerf, so Z=2X, and W=5X (It may only be 4X, but that's not particularly relevant, I'll use the number that's worse for my argument)

 

so, for every solo player doing a heroic pre-nerf, they earn 2X. For every player grouping x4, they earn 5X. All very well and good, clearly the grouper is 2.5* richer at the end of the week.

 

But, not everyone groups. if three times as many people solo heroics as group up, you get 3*2X=6X entering the economy weekly from the solos, but only 1*2.5X=2.5X entering from the groups. (Multiply both sides by 4 if you want to be hyper-accurate, but because you're doing it to both sides, it comes out in the wash and the numbers still balance.) Watching people hang out around the heroics areas, I'm reasonably sure that not even 1 player in 4 is grouping to 4x. It also takes longer to do the heroics in a group because of grouping friction, but that's not all that relevant either except to note that it's a reason people don't group.

 

In short, they went after the solo rewards because that's where the most credits were coming from overall, despite the better individual RoI on grouping.

[ElZaguero]

It's not the potential earnings that matter, it's the actual earnings.

 

Gonna throw some algebra up here.

 

Say a player can make X+Y=Z from soloing a heroic, and a group of 4 people can make X+4Y=W each from grouping it.

 

IIRC Y=X, more or less, pre-nerf, so Z=2X, and W=5X (It may only be 4X, but that's not particularly relevant, I'll use the number that's worse for my argument)

 

so, for every solo player doing a heroic pre-nerf, they earn 2X. For every player grouping x4, they earn 5X. All very well and good, clearly the grouper is 2.5* richer at the end of the week.

 

But, not everyone groups. if three times as many people solo heroics as group up, you get 3*2X=6X entering the economy weekly from the solos, but only 1*2.5X=2.5X entering from the groups. (Multiply both sides by 4 if you want to be hyper-accurate, but because you're doing it to both sides, it comes out in the wash and the numbers still balance.) Watching people hang out around the heroics areas, I'm reasonably sure that not even 1 player in 4 is grouping to 4x. It also takes longer to do the heroics in a group because of grouping friction, but that's not all that relevant either except to note that it's a reason people don't group.

 

In short, they went after the solo rewards because that's where the most credits were coming from overall, despite the better individual RoI on grouping.

 

You wanna post a simplified version of that, for Liberal Arts majors?

[ikinai]

You wanna post a simplified version of that, for Liberal Arts majors?

 

Basically it's like this:

 

Solo there are a greater number of players gaining credits from soloing(I am now calling them Stoics by the way) so therefore more credits are being generated by the solo runs. The math used was to illustrate that if there are more than 4 times as many players doing solo, which is most likely, it will be greater than the group mode at 4 times the payout.

[ConradLionhart]

It's not the potential earnings that matter, it's the actual earnings.

 

Gonna throw some algebra up here.

 

Say a player can make X+Y=Z from soloing a heroic, and a group of 4 people can make X+4Y=W each from grouping it.

 

IIRC Y=X, more or less, pre-nerf, so Z=2X, and W=5X (It may only be 4X, but that's not particularly relevant, I'll use the number that's worse for my argument)

 

so, for every solo player doing a heroic pre-nerf, they earn 2X. For every player grouping x4, they earn 5X. All very well and good, clearly the grouper is 2.5* richer at the end of the week.

 

But, not everyone groups. if three times as many people solo heroics as group up, you get 3*2X=6X entering the economy weekly from the solos, but only 1*2.5X=2.5X entering from the groups.

 

I really don't understand this part.

 

Three times as many people solo heroics as group would get 3*2X=6X.

 

2X + 2X + 2X

 

But the group of four would earn:

 

5X + 5X + 5X + 5X

Edited July 1, 2016 by ConradLionhart