Gameplay versus Lore

[Lord_Ricdel]

I was wondering about our character's actual abilities. I just played to ch. 12 of kotfe with my JK, and felt weak compared to the new companions and enemies. I always assumed that our toons could solo the likes of Malgus and Revan by themselves, and that Revan and Malgus were added as bosses in a FP and Ops for the sake of mmo group content, and not that we actually needed 4 or more galactic heroes to join forces just to defeat them. If lore states that we did, then our toons, force users included, would be slightly above average at best in terms of power. Can anyone who watches the livestreams or spoken to the devs confirm this?

[MadDutchman]

There is no official confirmation, but reading between the lines we have our PCs being far above average, some of the best and brightest of the era.

 

But then we get people like Revan, who are on another level entirely.

 

 

Though the MMO factor certainly comes in as well.

 

Though something to remember about KOTFE is our PCs still suffer from the effects of carbonite poisoning (Dr. Oggorrob (sp?) mentions stuff along those lines a couple times iirc) and probably some lingering effects from the end of chapter 8 (regardless if you chose light or dark, it doesn't end very well for you physically)

[Darth_Advent]

Before the game's debut in 2011, the original team's lead writer, Daniel Erickson (who no longer works at BioWare), described the protagonists in the character class stories as "The best of the best" in their respective fields. Each player character is an exceptional individual gifted with unique potential that allows them to be the hero of the story by doing what nobody else could pull off. Erickson specifically described the Jedi Knight, for example, as being God's gift to lightsaber combat. Another writer, I don't remember which, backed him up in described the Sith Warrior as having all of the trappings of Sith culture's legendary figures within him.

 

It's important to keep this in mind that the player characters start with the potential and eventually become the top of their archetypes. Many people seem to love using the Imperial Agent's standoff with Darth Jadus as proof that the Force isn't that powerful and that Sith and Jedi aren't so tough after all, but in reality the agent was really just that much of a BAMF and, as far as the lore is concerned, no other "normal" person could have done that.

[Lord_Ricdel]

There is no official confirmation, but reading between the lines we have our PCs being far above average, some of the best and brightest of the era.

 

But then we get people like Revan, who are on another level entirely.

 

 

Though the MMO factor certainly comes in as well.

 

Though something to remember about KOTFE is our PCs still suffer from the effects of carbonite poisoning (Dr. Oggorrob (sp?) mentions stuff along those lines a couple times iirc) and probably some lingering effects from the end of chapter 8 (regardless if you chose light or dark, it doesn't end very well for you physically)

 

But are the people like Revan in another class that's leaps and bounds above our characters despite our characters being the best of the era? Revan couldn't beat the emperor, and if Revan's that far above us i really can't see how our characters have a chance against the kotfe portagonists, let alone the emperor.

[ZanyaCross]

This is what happens when a game does a little too good a job of making a player feel like the baddest mo-fo on the block. It starts going to our heads.

 

Honestly, Arcaan's frustration over finally having an opponent he can't just steamroll over is so close to some players I've seen it's spooky.

[Daex]

But are the people like Revan in another class that's leaps and bounds above our characters despite our characters being the best of the era? Revan couldn't beat the emperor, and if Revan's that far above us i really can't see how our characters have a chance against the kotfe portagonists, let alone the emperor.

 

Our characters are really powerful when compared to the rest of Sith Empire and Republic, but they are not the most experienced.

 

I might be totally wrong, but Revan, one we killed, was no ordinary being. Also, the way I understood, he tried to stop Emperor alone. Correct me if I am wrong. We, on the other hand, have allies and taking different approach. At the end, we might face him alone, but in no way we will get there without help of others. That is how I explained it to myself.

[Thoughts_My_Aim]

Part of it, I suspect, is that "power" in Lore is a lot less measurable than in games.

 

In Episode 1 Darth Maul fights Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, and very nearly beats them. In Episode IV a much older Obi-Wan faces Darth Vader at (presumably) the height of his powers and the two seem evenly matched.

 

Either Darth Maul was so much more powerful than Vader that he was the equal of two Jedi Knights, while Vader could only ever fight one at a time, or Obi-Wan in old age was essentially as powerful as his old master and his younger self put together. Or (as is actually the case) the fight scenes are put together based on what looks cool, not on any real notion of who should logically be able to beat whom.

 

To overthink things for a moment, it's also worth pointing out that while Darth Malgus goes up against four PCs at once, he also ... well ... loses. A reasonable interpretation of both the Lore and the Game Mechanics is that Malgus is *about on level* with the PCs - maybe slightly better, but he has home team advantage - and that there need to be four PCs not because one alone couldn't defeat him in a lightsaber duel, but because whichever faction is setting up that mission wants to *guarantee* success.

[Saelinne]

To overthink things for a moment, it's also worth pointing out that while Darth Malgus goes up against four PCs at once, he also ... well ... loses. A reasonable interpretation of both the Lore and the Game Mechanics is that Malgus is *about on level* with the PCs - maybe slightly better, but he has home team advantage - and that there need to be four PCs not because one alone couldn't defeat him in a lightsaber duel, but because whichever faction is setting up that mission wants to *guarantee* success.

 

What I am imagining goes along these lines...although (imo ofcourse) our SWs and JKs are equal or maybe slightly more powerful in the force than Malgus. But I imagine them being masters at using their....somewhat limited resources...

Now the real beasts are our SI and JC. One via binding of ghosts and the other by luck of birth. Which makes playing KotFE with your SI/JC especially frustrating! I understand somewhat the SI's lack of power....they might not have access to force ghosts after all (although a scene where I tell ''no thanks'' to Valkorion's offer of power and attempt to use my own bound ghosts....only to fail (as they aren't there) and get impaled or whatever - is very much needed imo), but the JC? Did they get their Force pool cut in half without them noticing?!

 

 

 

 

Though something to remember about KOTFE is our PCs still suffer from the effects of carbonite poisoning (Dr. Oggorrob (sp?) mentions stuff along those lines a couple times iirc) and probably some lingering effects from the end of chapter 8 (regardless if you chose light or dark, it doesn't end very well for you physically)

 

The carbonite poisoning is a good excuse for our SWs and JKs who are much more lightsaber fighters (and even then I would have loved if our SW/JKs won the lightsaber duel vs Arcann...and then got their *** handled to them because Arcann overwhelmed them with pure force power), but JC? A guy/girl that can hunt a child of the emperor (let's say on the power level of jedi master...probably a little stronger), break an ancient civilization's (that was probably as technically advanced as Zakuul if not more) giant door, fight said Child and the defenses he could make work for him from the ancient civilization, kill him and then heal an ancient being that was frozen for who knows how much time.....

....JC is not on the level of Revan, but...

 

 

certainly not on the level for Senya to throw us 20-30 meters as she wishes....

 

Edited June 19, 2016 by Saelinne

[YoshiRaphElan]

certainly not on the level for Senya to throw us 20-30 meters as she wishes....

 

She only achieved that because she surprised us, IMO; we're clearly more powerful than her but she caught us off-guard while our attention was on her daughter.

[Lord_Ricdel]

Yeah, not all explanations work for some of the force users seeming so weak. Easily understandable for the non force users, but even if we do suffer from carbonite poisoning, we still seem able to handle regular mobs and bosses like before, but get owned against certain npcs. I hope we get a good explanation or power boost later and not end up winning by some fluke event.

[Saelinne]

Yeah, not all explanations work for some of the force users seeming so weak. Easily understandable for the non force users, but even if we do suffer from carbonite poisoning, we still seem able to handle regular mobs and bosses like before, but get owned against certain npcs. I hope we get a good explanation or power boost later and not end up winning by some fluke event.

 

Not to worry! We now have the +5 sword of Arcann demise so all will be well:)

(please ignore that we likely have to go through his sister first...who is stronger...I am sure we can trust the wisdom of the force ghost and the jedi grandmaster....)

/sigh I wish my SI had a third option: ''no thank you, there is a nice meal talking to me!'' /binds Marr's ghost:)

...or do both actually

 

She only achieved that because she surprised us, IMO; we're clearly more powerful than her but she caught us off-guard while our attention was on her daughter.

 

I don't like this explanation, because the force users are supposed to have some sort of six sense for danger. It is what makes them so dangerous. It (or at least I refuse to believe so) is not that they can shoot lightning from their hands (cool trick but that is all it is) or that they can throw people/object around...or even sorcery (although that is much more dangerous....do the jedi even have sorcery?), it is because when a sniper or some skilled person with a nice rifle tries to shoot them they sense it and evade it in some way. Now you can say that Valkorion was distracting us in some way....which imo is better explanation, but again...we don't comment on it. Or think on it (just for ourselves)....does it come across I am disappointed by KotFE?

[Thoughts_My_Aim]

I don't like this explanation, because the force users are supposed to have some sort of six sense for danger. It is what makes them so dangerous. It (or at least I refuse to believe so) is not that they can shoot lightning from their hands (cool trick but that is all it is) or that they can throw people/object around...or even sorcery (although that is much more dangerous....do the jedi even have sorcery?), it is because when a sniper or some skilled person with a nice rifle tries to shoot them they sense it and evade it in some way.

 

Except this is definitely not true according to canon. If it was, Revenge of the Sith would have gone something like this:

 

PALPATINE: Execute ... order Sixty-six

CLONE TROOPERS: [shoot at Jedi]

JEDI MASTERS WHO LET'S REMEMBER ARE BASICALLY THE MOST POWERFUL JEDI IN THE GALAXY: [Flawlessly deflect blaster bolts and take out Clone Troopers]

PALPATINE: You know, I really should have seen this one coming.

[Teriaon]

Except this is definitely not true according to canon. If it was, Revenge of the Sith would have gone something like this:

 

PALPATINE: Execute ... order Sixty-six

CLONE TROOPERS: [shoot at Jedi]

JEDI MASTERS WHO LET'S REMEMBER ARE BASICALLY THE MOST POWERFUL JEDI IN THE GALAXY: [Flawlessly deflect blaster bolts and take out Clone Troopers]

PALPATINE: You know, I really should have seen this one coming.

 

Throwing another force user isent as simple as that, or every duel between them would be a matter of who could choke the other the quickest. jedi and sith have force barriers to protect themselves aginst stuff like being thrown or chaoked or you would never even need lightsabers. So yeah there is no way Senya if she is in fact less powerful then the PC jedi or sith should be able to just throw you like that. Especially when you are engaged with another force user because you would be ready for some kind of push or lift by then

[adormitul]

Throwing another force user isent as simple as that, or every duel between them would be a matter of who could choke the other the quickest. jedi and sith have force barriers to protect themselves aginst stuff like being thrown or chaoked or you would never even need lightsabers. So yeah there is no way Senya if she is in fact less powerful then the PC jedi or sith should be able to just throw you like that. Especially when you are engaged with another force user because you would be ready for some kind of push or lift by then

 

Most writers and Lucas and even Abrams included do not even acknowledge the existence of force walls and I think SWTOR writers do not also. The same with the writers of Rebels also in the JC story line a child of the emperor trowed us several feet with a force push but we still managed to kill him. It does not mean that much that she force pushed us that far.

[Analyst]

I don't like this explanation, because the force users are supposed to have some sort of six sense for danger.

Perhaps that is the key point. Senya was not an enemy, did not intend to harm us, and so the danger sense did not work about her.

And actually, I doubt that said sense works automatically. Otherwise it would be impossible to ambush or suddenly betray a Force user. Here the Outlander might not activate it - after all, you do not need danger sense when the source of danger is right before you with lightsaber ignited.

[Simbr]

But then we get people like Revan, who are on another level entirely.

 

This simply isn't true.

If you follow the Jedi Knight story you will know that Revan wasn't strong enough to defeat the Emperor, whilst the Hero of Typhon was and did.

 

 

Also on another point, I don't why people get so hung up on Senya's push. Firstly she caught the Outlander off guard and secondly we saw Yoda do the same to the Emperor in ROTS and he was supposed to be the most powerful Sith of all time.

[YoshiRaphElan]

I don't like this explanation, because the force users are supposed to have some sort of six sense for danger. It is what makes them so dangerous. It (or at least I refuse to believe so) is not that they can shoot lightning from their hands (cool trick but that is all it is) or that they can throw people/object around...or even sorcery (although that is much more dangerous....do the jedi even have sorcery?), it is because when a sniper or some skilled person with a nice rifle tries to shoot them they sense it and evade it in some way. Now you can say that Valkorion was distracting us in some way....which imo is better explanation, but again...we don't comment on it. Or think on it (just for ourselves)....does it come across I am disappointed by KotFE?

 

True, but when all the senses are focused on Vaylin, that danger sense might've gotten confused as coming from her. The Jedi naturally wouldn't believe they were sensing danger from an ally, and maybe they were shielded against Vaylin, just weren't prepared for Senya. And besides, Jedi aren't as invincible as some would believe. All you need to do is watch the movies to see that even experienced Jedi like Obi-Wan and Anakin can be surprised at times. Their danger sense usually warns them, yes (see the cantina at AOTC, when Obi-Wan cuts Zam Wessel's arm off), but it's not infallible. In the heat of the moment, when their focus is elsewhere, they can be surprised. Remember, for example, that Obi-Wan was actively searching for Zam through the Force. He was ready. We weren't, for Senya. It's no big deal.

[Saelinne]

The Jedi

 

...aand that is where your argument comes to a halt:) I was playing a Sith...she certainly expects a betrayal by her allies (except very few) so she should have felt the attack coming...

...but you (unlike some) were at least polite when trying to correct me so - let's agree to disagree, shall we?

Same thing to Analyst. I am sorry I didn't reply to you, but I have already gone through the theory you are proposing...and to me it just seems as too big oversight for it not to be used alot - with their level of technology they should be able to make unthinking droid/cyborg to kill force users left and right...

[EzioMessi]

I think of the discrepancy in power in FPs and OP's this way. We never have any 1v1 duels with the bosses. They ALWAYS place an army of opponents ahead of us, and several bosses leading up to the fight. For example, before facing Malgus we have to face all of his Alien commanders and their armies, Darth Serevin, then another army of his droids and aliens, including HK-47 and some "Sith Entity", a bunch of weaker Sith Lords until we FINALLY get to Malgus. He's tossing all of us around and choking us effortlessly? It's a testament to the power of our characters that just four of us can fight through entire armies and then keep up with characters such as Malgus, who on an individual level have to be only somewhat weaker than player characters.

 

Ops are a different beast entirely. Most of the villains we face are massive beastly terrors, there isn't much justification go be given, especially since we face those beastly terrors after facing down their entire armies too, or facing incredible professionals in groups. I'd argue that the Dread Masters have a small discrepancy regarding how Jaric Kaedan beat them alone, the PCs had to be in a group to beat a single one of them, and then needed to be in the same size group to beat the entire group.

 

That's how I justify the lore-gameplay discrepancies at least, and I'd gather in a pure 1v1 we could beat most FP bosses (lorewise) that don't have some trick up their sleeve.

[YoshiRaphElan]

...aand that is where your argument comes to a halt:) I was playing a Sith...she certainly expects a betrayal by her allies (except very few) so she should have felt the attack coming...

...but you (unlike some) were at least polite when trying to correct me so - let's agree to disagree, shall we?

Same thing to Analyst. I am sorry I didn't reply to you, but I have already gone through the theory you are proposing...and to me it just seems as too big oversight for it not to be used alot - with their level of technology they should be able to make unthinking droid/cyborg to kill force users left and right...

 

But not right at the moment, right? Your focus was still on Vaylin.

 

But sure, I can agree to disagree.

[Audoucet]

Except this is definitely not true according to canon. If it was, Revenge of the Sith would have gone something like this:

 

PALPATINE: Execute ... order Sixty-six

CLONE TROOPERS: [shoot at Jedi]

JEDI MASTERS WHO LET'S REMEMBER ARE BASICALLY THE MOST POWERFUL JEDI IN THE GALAXY: [Flawlessly deflect blaster bolts and take out Clone Troopers]

PALPATINE: You know, I really should have seen this one coming.

 

Except that the troopers didn't intend to kill the Jedi, 3 seconds before. The order litteraly hacked their brain. It was a surprise attack from their own faithful allies. PLUS, don't forget : "The Dark Side clouds everything".

 

And even so, Yoda still reacted in time.

[adormitul]

Except that the troopers didn't intend to kill the Jedi, 3 seconds before. The order litteraly hacked their brain. It was a surprise attack from their own faithful allies. PLUS, don't forget : "The Dark Side clouds everything".

 

And even so, Yoda still reacted in time.

 

So did Ki Adi Mundi but it was not enough it seems that he could not deflect all those blasters which where not that many to be fair.

[Audoucet]

 

Not many ? Six veteran clones upfront, plus droids in his back... Without cover. It's a Jedi Master, not Darth Vader. Obi-Wan, Yoda, Windu or Anakin are massive powerhouses, even by Jedi Master standard, It's not something mundane, to parry and more than two shots simultaneously, in canon.

[adormitul]

 

Not many ? Six veteran clones upfront, plus droids in his back... Without cover. It's a Jedi Master, not Darth Vader. Obi-Wan, Yoda, Windu or Anakin are massive powerhouses, even by Jedi Master standard, It's not something mundane, to parry and more than two shots simultaneously, in canon.

 

Well there only six after all and the droids did not attacked. But yeah Vader would have crushed their necks, Obi Wan would have parried all of them and found a opening to get away like he did or sense it faster and run with his mount who knows who knows. Windu would have used his force speed to close the gap and cut them and Anakin well reflect the blasters back at them.

Now why did the SW, JK, JC, SI did not sense Senya well the same reason Vader did not sensed Leia he did not tried to sense Senya. Now why did his force wall sucked also well the same reason it was for Obi Wan their force wall was terrible. But they made up for that with huge endurance and recovering very fast from such a thing. You know how Galen Malek had his force shield always broken by Vader and yet he still defeated him it proves that weak to no force walls do not make you weak you just work around it or take the force push get up and continue the fight. Now to why your neck is not crushed by piercing you force wall well like Galen Malek that thing is way to hard to do to a force user. Look at Vader when he tried that on Malek the young apprentice powered trough and made a force wall to powerful for Vader to penetrate. Active force walls are way harder to pierce then passive ones.

Edited June 22, 2016 by adormitul