Space combat

[Case_Wight]

Although, that Death Star trench run is kind of like this...

 

 

Kind of.

 

But even in the trench run pilots were working together...

 

"We're going in, we're going in full throttle...that ought to keep those fighters off our backs."

 

"You're all clear, kid!"

 

 

And many others.

[Galius]

I could argue that allowing full control of the avatar on the ground and interaction with the environment, whilst NOT keeping those qualities in other gamplay IS actually trying to force two different forms of gameplay together. Which is precisely the situation with SWTOR and it's space combat.

 

Of course, some like this Tunnel Shooter. But that doesn't mean that the majority thinks that space combat couldn't be better.

 

Tarka! Good to see you again.

 

Yeah, sadly there are people still defending this poorly thought out gamw mechanic. They just do not understand how true fans of the Star Wars mythos would want more than this cheap gameplay as the only example of what SHOULD be epic space combat.

[Armythug]

Why on earth did they make a space game which feels like i am a 2 year old on a tricylce with trainer wheels.

 

Who in their right mind would put training wheels...... on a tricycle??

[Galius]

Who in their right mind would put training wheels...... on a tricycle??

 

Sadly, Bioware.

[archifikoss]

Does anyone remember a game called Freelancer?

Now that was one of the best space battle games I have played - it was also very small in actual install size- but you really got every penny worth out of it.

 

Why on earth did they make a space game which feels like i am a 2 year old on a tricylce with trainer wheels.

 

Where is the free roaming missions?

At present I am ignoring space missions as they as dull as watching paint dry.

 

Not impressed by anything yet.

 

Ahhhh Freelancer... The memories... I still play that game sometimes.

 

Granted i preferred Privateer as a game, but Freelancer had really cool space exploration with a lot of things to do and discover... I'm still discovering new little things to this day.

 

Ahem, on topic: The thing is that Freelancer was a stand alone space sim. Space combat in TOR is unfortunately just a minigame... I would love it to be expanded on with free-flight hotspots at least. I don't expect freeroaming and space exploration, even though I'd love it, but I'll make do with free-flight hotspots. It has potential, I hope it's realized...

[CharagonIGN]

I'm curious. Exactly how many resources and how much development time do you expect BioWare to put into a mini-game?

 

 

Keep in mind, we're talking about the same developers that FORGOT TO PUT IN A COMBAT LOG.

 

 

On-rails shooters are relatively easy to make.

 

Free range shooters are significantly more complex.

[Superdru]

It's way better than I first thought it would be. There's always action going on. SWG space had it's moments but the 'sandbox' space environments were pretty empty, oh look a few asteroids. Would be cool if they improve on it later down the road but for now it's fine the way it is, something to do while taking a break from the real game.

[bliapis]

I like space combat too.. I do 3-4 rolls before i log out and its a blast!

 

Only issue is the low XP i get at L35.

 

 

Anyone knows where i reimburse the fleet commendations at?

[Superdru]

I like space combat too.. I do 3-4 rolls before i log out and its a blast!

 

Only issue is the low XP i get at L35.

 

 

Anyone knows where i reimburse the fleet commendations at?

 

On your faction fleet station, there's a fleet commendation vendor. For Republic I think it was in the NorthWest area.

[jaiAtillar]

(Cut and paste response to a cut and paste thread)

 

I loved the old Rebel Assault games, and this has a very similar feel. I love it, and considering most of the in movie space combat was portrayed in a very similar way (Most famous examples being the trench run and the destruction of the Death Star II) I feel it's very true to the spirit of the movies.

 

I am a big fan of how they did the space combat, my only gripe is that there's no multiplayer missions and that there aren't enough missions (Never enough!).

[Chaizen]

Does anyone remember a game called Freelancer?

Now that was one of the best space battle games I have played - it was also very small in actual install size- but you really got every penny worth out of it.

 

Why on earth did they make a space game which feels like i am a 2 year old on a tricylce with trainer wheels.

 

Where is the free roaming missions?

At present I am ignoring space missions as they as dull as watching paint dry.

 

Not impressed by anything yet.

 

Freelancer just became dogs chasing their tails in space, just like every other free flight game of it's generation and earlier. Hell, most free flight games now still deteriorate to that ridiculous chasing each other in circles simplicity. Seriously, some games are not as good as you will remember them. The idea of free flight is so much better then it's execution in every space game I have ever played, and I am pretty sure I've played the majority. Some of the battles in Rogue Squadron II Rogue Leader for Gamecube were pretty good, but there were way too many tedious travel points in between and the difficulty curve was a mess, going from battles you could've done with one hand in your sleep to a battle you just had to keep trying until you got lucky to get past all the laser fire and physical obstacles thrown your way.

 

Have you gotten to Make Te Assault yet? That was the beginning of when I started to see the potential of this style of combat shooter. They can do some pretty epic visuals and scripting of fleet battles with this that would just turn in to a total mess in any free flight scenario, and it won't allow for battles to just deteriorate in to basic chasing each other's tail battles. It's not perfect of course, but it seems to have a lot more potential to produce fun Star Wars themed space combat than anything I have seen in a free flight game of any genre.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Chaizen

[Galius]

Freelancer just became dogs chasing their tails in space, just like every other free flight game of it's generation and earlier. Hell, most free flight games now still deteriorate to that ridiculous chasing each other in circles simplicity. Seriously, some games are not as good as you will remember them. The idea of free flight is so much better then it's execution in every space game I have ever played, and I am pretty sure I've played the majority. Some of the battles in Rogue Squadron II Rogue Leader for Gamecube were pretty good, but there were way too many tedious travel points in between and the difficulty curve was a mess, going from battles you could've done with one hand in your sleep to a battle you just had to keep trying until you got lucky to get past all the laser fire and physical obstacles thrown your way.

 

Have you gotten to Make Te Assault yet? That was the beginning of when I started to see the potential of this style of combat shooter. They can do some pretty epic visuals and scripting of fleet battles with this that would just turn in to a total mess in any free flight scenario, and it won't allow for battles to just deteriorate in to basic chasing each other's tail battles. It's not perfect of course, but it seems to have a lot more potential to produce fun Star Wars themed space combat than anything I have seen in a free flight game of any genre.

 

I have to say... if you were "chasing each others tails" in free flight combat, you were doing it wrong.

 

There is no way a tunnel shooter can do an epic fleet fight better than free form flight.

[Xaldin]

Keep in mind, we're talking about the same developers that FORGOT TO PUT IN A COMBAT LOG.

 

 

They didn't forget. It was left turned off (its there just not accessible to us) deliberately. You can not like the decision all you want but it wasn't a 'oops' it was a 'not for users right now'.

[Boundd]

The space missions are an extremely welcome addition and have a LOT of scope for future improvements. Personally, while of course I want free roam and being able to bump into other ships (enemy ones included ;D), and was skeptical when I heard of the 'on the rails' method, I actually think they've pulled it off really well and It's a blast, I love my ship. I think it's cool as hell to actually own a ship you can customise, and upgrade and actually serves a purpose as transport!

[gonzolo]

I'm starting to worry that if Bioware don't deliver a SW version of Elite with full walking in ships and multiplayer (on one ship and in fleets) that people are just going to continue to hate the Space portion of this game.

 

Currently the space system is a nice diversion. Not overly complicated and fun for a quick blast. Will wait, with hope, to see what, if anything, Bioware introduce to change that.

[captainmerkin]

I really enjoy doing the daily rounds of some space shooty stuff, ok its nothing new and its far from impressive but its a really nice relaxing cup of tea cake run.

 

Makes a real nice change to have something like this in an mmo at launch and it has lots of expandability in the future.

 

Consider it a free extra for now and hopefully something more in future.

[Tarka]

I'm curious. Exactly how many resources and how much development time do you expect BioWare to put into a mini-game?

 

 

Keep in mind, we're talking about the same developers that FORGOT TO PUT IN A COMBAT LOG.

 

 

On-rails shooters are relatively easy to make.

 

Free range shooters are significantly more complex.

 

Personally, I think the answer to that question depends on the context. This is Star Wars and therefore the demands for space combat differ to the demands for space combat in, let's say, World of Warcraft.

 

Side note: Bioware Austin (the developers of the "ground game" in SWTOR) didn't actually develop the tunnel shooter space combat. That was actually done by Bioware Edmonton, a separate team.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Tarka

[Tarka]

Freelancer just became dogs chasing their tails in space, just like every other free flight game of it's generation and earlier. Hell, most free flight games now still deteriorate to that ridiculous chasing each other in circles simplicity. Seriously, some games are not as good as you will remember them. The idea of free flight is so much better then it's execution in every space game I have ever played, and I am pretty sure I've played the majority. Some of the battles in Rogue Squadron II Rogue Leader for Gamecube were pretty good, but there were way too many tedious travel points in between and the difficulty curve was a mess, going from battles you could've done with one hand in your sleep to a battle you just had to keep trying until you got lucky to get past all the laser fire and physical obstacles thrown your way.

 

Have you gotten to Make Te Assault yet? That was the beginning of when I started to see the potential of this style of combat shooter. They can do some pretty epic visuals and scripting of fleet battles with this that would just turn in to a total mess in any free flight scenario, and it won't allow for battles to just deteriorate in to basic chasing each other's tail battles. It's not perfect of course, but it seems to have a lot more potential to produce fun Star Wars themed space combat than anything I have seen in a free flight game of any genre.

 

One could distill every FPS game down to its bare essentials and then state that they are all identical: strafing pointless kill fests. But I think that would be doing some games a disservice.

 

My point is that Freelancer wasn't just about dogfighting. It had a good storyline too. Just as have other space combat games (e.g. Indepedence War 2). So to generalise it as nothing more than "dogs chasing their tails" is really ignoring a large portion of what makes such games appealing.

 

Now the Tunnel Shooter space combat is visually nice. No doubt about that. But good graphics do not necessarily make good gameplay.

 

And whilst I am sure that some people love this Tunnel Shooter, therefore I would never suggest that it be replaced with something else. Nevertheless, some people desire something "richer". Something that they feel is more akin to being in an MMORPG.

 

So I say, keep the Tunnel Shooter in the game for those who like it. But also offer a form of gameplay that is "richer", and perhaps includes the following:

• Full control of the ship
  
• Solo, group, and maybe even operation size team basd action.
  
• Caters for PVE and PVP gameplay.
  
• Maybe allows players on the same size (one flying, others shooting).
  
• Dovetails into guild / guild ship functionality.
  
• Allows for exploration.
  

Edited December 28, 2011 by Tarka

[Baracca]

space missions are fine. it's like star fox which is good. can't wait for more new missions though. i would like to see more big missions like cartel station where you need multiple passes on a big ship or station to take out all the turrets etc...

 

maybe they can make some canyon runs or space station trench runs where you're really close to the surface. that would be cool

 

they could always add space missions that are NOT on your own ship. perhaps a ship where you man the guns like on the falcon. 2 man group space mission

Edited December 28, 2011 by Baracca

[Raptorice]

It's beyond frustrating, I WANT to plan my assault vectors, no I DO NOT want to fly into the asteroid fields just for being dramatic. Its like my ship's is being piloted by a potato and all i can do is to make minor course changes. It's becoming a game where you memorize the movements and the windows where your object target comes into view for the scant 5 to 10 seconds when you have half a minute left on the clock. I don't mind the time limit, i just want to use it properly. Escort missions are even worse. I've never seen a tactic where you wait for aggressors to overtake you before engaging them.

 

The ground portions of the game is fantastic, but the space battles really left a very bitter taste in my mouth. It's a series of quick time events.

 

So yeah I guess you can call it space battles, in the same vein as space invaders.

[Bekkal]

They're daily quests, not a major game feature. Compare them to this:

and they're basically a better-graphics version of nearly identical content.

 

They're awesome dailies, but stop expecting them to be SWG.

[Torgadar]

Never played Freelancer.

 

Freespace 1 and 2 though. Now THAT was a good space combat sim.

 

Throw that in SWTOR and add Joystick support and game on.

 

However... that's an unrealistic expectation for a AAA MMO. They're always gonna patch in more raids and whatnot first.

[Raptorice]

Freelancer just became dogs chasing their tails in space, just like every other free flight game of it's generation and earlier. Hell, most free flight games now still deteriorate to that ridiculous chasing each other in circles simplicity. Seriously, some games are not as good as you will remember them. The idea of free flight is so much better then it's execution in every space game I have ever played, and I am pretty sure I've played the majority. Some of the battles in Rogue Squadron II Rogue Leader for Gamecube were pretty good, but there were way too many tedious travel points in between and the difficulty curve was a mess, going from battles you could've done with one hand in your sleep to a battle you just had to keep trying until you got lucky to get past all the laser fire and physical obstacles thrown your way.

 

Have you gotten to Make Te Assault yet? That was the beginning of when I started to see the potential of this style of combat shooter. They can do some pretty epic visuals and scripting of fleet battles with this that would just turn in to a total mess in any free flight scenario, and it won't allow for battles to just deteriorate in to basic chasing each other's tail battles. It's not perfect of course, but it seems to have a lot more potential to produce fun Star Wars themed space combat than anything I have seen in a free flight game of any genre.

 

Disagree, if you're using a console game as an example your argument won't have any legs in this discussion. All I can take from your spiel is that you are the exact target market for these sort of tunnel space battles and you don't really care for freeflight games which require a modicum of thought. Which is fine really.

 

I've played all the "missions" in the game and I fail to see how they can be epic, I mean even the old X-Wing gave a huge amount of satisfaction when you're able to complete a mission. This is just glorified QTEs with rainbows and flashy booms.

[pjskull]

It's funny how the game has its defenders, where nothing in the game can be improved: "Hey, Space is a great diverting minigame and merging 3D space will never work in any MMO!" and its haters "Everything in this game from a stupid company that forgot a combat log is bad and should be tossed..." The truth lies somewhere in the middle with reasoned discourse... Space Combat in SWTOR is a perfect example of this.

 

At the end of the day, Space Combat was a huge part of this IP in all of our minds. Lest you film buffs forget, (and the opening for each SWTOR character class in each faction will not...) the movies *all* start in space. The opening scenes are of spaceships and usually go straight into space combat...

 

I am really enjoying the game, leveling a main and dabbling with alts, but Space Combat is very lame. It definitely feels tacked on to the game like someone said, "We *have* to have a space component, but we have no resources to develop it. Let's go with a single person rail shooter with minimal ship mods."

 

That being said, BioWare has said they "have something big" in store. I believe this because of my ship. I only have the IA Phantom at this point, but next to the 2V-R8 droid (or whatever), there is an area that looks suspiciously like a turret tube access point. It serves no purpose right now, but looks like it will later. I am hoping this means multiplayer play, more complexity, PVP, crafting, full 3D, etc.

 

At the end of the day, this is an MMO, not a single person game. I am really hoping that the multiplayer space combat aspect comes to SWTOR sooner rather than later...

Edited December 28, 2011 by pjskull

[DarkMarshmallow]

Does anyone remember a game called Freelancer?

Now that was one of the best space battle games I have played - it was also very small in actual install size- but you really got every penny worth out of it.

 

Why on earth did they make a space game which feels like i am a 2 year old on a tricylce with trainer wheels.

 

Where is the free roaming missions?

At present I am ignoring space missions as they as dull as watching paint dry.

 

Not impressed by anything yet.

 

 

 

Privateers, Freelancer well its not complicated to make somethin better tan swotor space sh***.

For me the only real dark point to this outstanding MMO.