Vanguard Get Better at 50?

[Inzil]

(Almost) level 47 Vanguard here. Doing great in PvP, won the MVP vote several times, and I've also killed many aggressors in world pvp. Tanked quite a few instances, even the Red Baron one succesfully at only level 44.

 

Also killing elites is easy, especially with Elara. But I'm riding with Tanno because he agrees with my dialogue choices, and the elites are still not that hard.

[texoc]

.....

In PvP I see Vanguards in general on top of the medal scores, if they play tank and protect other players (next to participating to the game). If they only go for kills, they can be found at the end. Looks fair for me.

 

....

 

currently i see shield Vanguards being Top Damage, outdamaging even damage specced Troopers/Bountyhunters

 

biggest damage potential ive seen so far in swtor...

 

300k - 400k damage/ 60 kills + 40k protections on a good voidstar round is not unusual ... 12 + medals ... with 0-2 deaths

[Torcer]

If you’re playing a VG to get the most DPS in PvP, you’re probably doing it wrong. VG is all about Guard and being a PITA with Taunt, while bringing a decent amount of DPS – enough to be a PITA that can’t be ignored, thus freeing up your healers and damage dealers. Heck, I suck at PvP and even I’ve figured this out. At this point, a lot of the frustration is level 50s with PvP gear rolling us, but that should even out eventually once we’re specced and 50.

[subpardarth]

I always find it sad when people of a class defend the fact that their class may be underpowered...

 

Its almost like telling the government you don't want an income tax check back because you have enough money already...

 

I will always lobby to have the Vanguard's abilities buffed because I want to see Vanguards on top...

 

Not all of us enjoy playing the OP class (if it were to get buffed to this level you seem to think it needs to be at).

 

Would of rolled a sorc had I wanted to do that.

[Contour]

Hurr, my tank class isn't top dps AND ultra durable. Derp.

 

If you don't like it, you're free to reroll.

[caffnated]

So overall, were average! Hoorah for Mediocrity!

 

Sounds like the definition of balanced to me. You even admit that it's not like the class is terrible... it's just not the best. So shouldn't "the best" be adjusted down, and the worst adjusted up to meet Vanguard in the middle then?

[xBuzz]

I'm lvl 50 shield spec vanguard, rank 51 atm with most epic pvp gear, over 18k hitpoints etc. At 50 vanguard is a very strong class. 1 on 1, you can beat most classes. You can last for a LONG time, versus even groups of enemies solo. Harpoon is a free kill in huttball every 1 minute. You can't kite a vanguard because we're also ranged, but it's also nearly impossible to get out of melee range of a vanguard.

 

Operative/scoundrel is the only class that can do enough dps solo to cause pain, but even then once you outlast their stuns, they will die fast.

 

Vanguard is a very strong class at 50. Vanguards also eat mercenaries/commandos for breakfast and ask for more.

[Coiffio]

I always find it sad when people of a class defend the fact that their class may be underpowered...

 

Its almost like telling the government you don't want an income tax check back because you have enough money already...

 

I will always lobby to have the Vanguard's abilities buffed because I want to see Vanguards on top...

 

It can also be seen as sad by complaining about a class when others seem to be doing fine, but you protest that it's broken to high heck.

[Jassie]

Vanguard, even if specced as DPS, was never meant to be a true DPS. They created two archetypes, the tank and the DPS for this reason. You can get higher DPS with using a DPS spec, but you should NOT being out DPSing a DPS class who is specced for such, assuming they are players of equal skill. Your DPS specs are an added/off DPS.

 

With that said, if you're guarding someone of importance (i.e., healer or DPS), then your procs should be going off OFTEN. The guard absorbs half the damage that the person being guarded takes. I've never EVER had an issue with this.

 

See the above two points and if you're still not happy, then feel free to roll the class you want to be: DPS = Commando or Smuggler. Otherwise the others who say "you're doing it wrong" are correct. Just like real life, not everyone is good at everything. Sorry, but that's the truth.

[Trevalon]

Where are the numbers, then? If "statistically" we're "mediocre", I'd expect you to back that up with some stats.

 

Note that I'm not in favor of either side of the argument. What I am against, however, is players parading their subjective rants as fact.

 

This is something you would have to research yourself - being out of school (I'm a teacher not a student lol) I spend about 6-7 hours a day theory crafting on the forums so I have read alot of information on alot of different classes and can see how the numbers are stacked up rght now.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Trevalon

[Trevalon]

Not all of us enjoy playing the OP class (if it were to get buffed to this level you seem to think it needs to be at).

 

Would of rolled a sorc had I wanted to do that.

 

I hope not a healing sorc lol

[Trevalon]

Sounds like the definition of balanced to me. You even admit that it's not like the class is terrible... it's just not the best. So shouldn't "the best" be adjusted down, and the worst adjusted up to meet Vanguard in the middle then?

 

Very good argument...unfortunately I don't believe a thing like balance exists in MMO's...

 

Someone is always on top and someone is always on bottom...

 

My goal is to try and make sure Vanguards don't reach the bottom (Not that they are or are going to hit that point).

[Trevalon]

It can also be seen as sad by complaining about a class when others seem to be doing fine, but you protest that it's broken to high heck.

 

Not complaining about anything - I am fine where Vanguards are atm - That doesn't mean I wont pro-actively post in ways I think the Vanguard could be better...

[IlexGlabra]

Vanguard, even if specced as DPS, was never meant to be a true DPS. They created two archetypes, the tank and the DPS for this reason. You can get higher DPS with using a DPS spec, but you should NOT being out DPSing a DPS class who is specced for such, assuming they are players of equal skill. Your DPS specs are an added/off DPS.

 

With that said, if you're guarding someone of importance (i.e., healer or DPS), then your procs should be going off OFTEN. The guard absorbs half the damage that the person being guarded takes. I've never EVER had an issue with this.

 

See the above two points and if you're still not happy, then feel free to roll the class you want to be: DPS = Commando or Smuggler. Otherwise the others who say "you're doing it wrong" are correct. Just like real life, not everyone is good at everything. Sorry, but that's the truth.

I think that has been disputed and disproven by Georg and other Bioware representatives. DPS spec Vanguard should be capable of approximately the same DPS as DPS spec Commando (which can also be a healer, just as Vanguard can be a tank).

Edited December 28, 2011 by IlexGlabra

[Strenif]

47 shield spec here.

 

Love my vanguard, PvP or PvE I own. Haven't lost a 1v1 in open world pvp yet. I don't need what's her name to kill gold star mobs. I normally walk around with yunn unless I know imps are in the area.

[GregP]

I think that has been disputed and disproven by Georg and other Bioware representatives. DPS spec Vanguard should be capable of approximately the same DPS as DPS spec Commando (which can also be a healer, just as Vanguard can be a tank).

 

I don't get this whole 'Vangaurds are supposed to be a tanks and Commandos dps' mentality. People seem to be having trouble with the idea of hybrid classes that can fill more than one role. Vanguards get two damage trees and a tanking tree, while Commandos get a two damage and a healing tree. Maybe we should pigeonhole Commando's into being healers, since you know, one of their trees is for healing.

Edited December 28, 2011 by GregP

[StupacGT]

Vanguard, even if specced as DPS, was never meant to be a true DPS. They created two archetypes, the tank and the DPS for this reason. You can get higher DPS with using a DPS spec, but you should NOT being out DPSing a DPS class who is specced for such, assuming they are players of equal skill. Your DPS specs are an added/off DPS.

 

With that said, if you're guarding someone of importance (i.e., healer or DPS), then your procs should be going off OFTEN. The guard absorbs half the damage that the person being guarded takes. I've never EVER had an issue with this.

 

See the above two points and if you're still not happy, then feel free to roll the class you want to be: DPS = Commando or Smuggler. Otherwise the others who say "you're doing it wrong" are correct. Just like real life, not everyone is good at everything. Sorry, but that's the truth.

 

That is incorrect. The highest DPS I have ever seen in a warzone was from a DPS Vanguard, and they didn't even have the full Champion PVP set. And the warzone only lasted about 10 minutes (6-3 win in Huttball).

 

A vanguard can DPS as high as any other class. It requires a different playstyle to accomplish it though.

[CompleteBlackout]

This is something you would have to research yourself - being out of school (I'm a teacher not a student lol) I spend about 6-7 hours a day theory crafting on the forums so I have read alot of information on alot of different classes and can see how the numbers are stacked up rght now.

 

As the person attempting to prove a point (vanguards are mediocre), the burden of proof lies with you. Claiming you have "theory crafted" and "crunched numbers" equates to nothing if you don't have the data to back it up. If you can't prove anything, don't claim that you can.

 

If your tactic is to make claims and complaints that may or may not be accurate in the attempt to get your class a pity buff. Well, good luck. Even I (Sentinel) am not holding my breath for that.

[bbqsauced]

I'm not going to get super detailed here, but I wanted to stem some worries that seem to be present here.

 

I played Vanguard (Shield Spec) in beta, and reached 50 on launch day, so I've had the luxury of spending a lot of time with the class. I hope at least some of my experiences help you here.

 

1). Post 40, things get tough, fast. This isn't a Vanguard specific thing, all classes/specs go through it. It becomes very difficult to use a DPS companion against elites unless you keep their gear top notch. You'll end up having to resort to using Elara, at least for elites. You can always swap companions on the fly.

 

2.) Other classes actually have a much harder time in post 40 content than we do. I pretty much soloed my way to 50, now I'm going back to help guildies on the 40+ planets because they're having a lot of trouble there, and it's with the same content I soloed.

 

3.) Vanguards do great dps, you just have to be geared appropriately. Oddly, Shield Spec does insane damage if you use dps gear over tank gear, even with Ion Cell up. I don't have the numbers, but I've been experimenting with it vs Tactics, and I'm almost convinced it does more damage than Tactics. Assault Specialist seems like it would be better, but I haven't done extensive testing with it yet.

 

4.) Vanguard PvP is in a really good spot right now. One on one, the only thing I fear is a really well played Assassin tank who gets the jump on me. I PvP with tanking gear too. Trust me, as soon as you start grabbing Champions gear, you'll feel like a brick wall.

 

In general, what you may be experiencing (as far as pvp goes) is actually directly related to people like me hitting 50 and getting their PvP gear. If you are not 50, your chances of survival against max level players are dwindling, fast. Expertise makes a huge difference.

 

I would recommend you hit 50 and see for yourself. Things only get better.

 

Also, it seems that tanks are becoming somewhat rare in PvP - Please, do your server a favor, and play a PvP tank. They are pretty much essential in all the warzones, and there's not enough of us to go around, at least where I am.

[bliapis]

Vanguard, even if specced as DPS, was never meant to be a true DPS. They created two archetypes, the tank and the DPS for this reason. You can get higher DPS with using a DPS spec, but you should NOT being out DPSing a DPS class who is specced for such, assuming they are players of equal skill. Your DPS specs are an added/off DPS.

 

With that said, if you're guarding someone of importance (i.e., healer or DPS), then your procs should be going off OFTEN. The guard absorbs half the damage that the person being guarded takes. I've never EVER had an issue with this.

 

See the above two points and if you're still not happy, then feel free to roll the class you want to be: DPS = Commando or Smuggler. Otherwise the others who say "you're doing it wrong" are correct. Just like real life, not everyone is good at everything. Sorry, but that's the truth.

 

You have it all wrong.

 

The archetypes you mention are wrong.

 

Commando is 1healer tree, 2dps.

 

Vanguard is 1tank tree, 2dps

 

So if there is something that actually differs them in their roles, is tank OR healer. So if its down designating which AC does unique what, its Commando for healing and Vanguard for tanking.

 

And both do dps.

Edited December 30, 2011 by bliapis

[KLGChaos]

This is something you would have to research yourself - being out of school (I'm a teacher not a student lol) I spend about 6-7 hours a day theory crafting on the forums so I have read alot of information on alot of different classes and can see how the numbers are stacked up rght now.

 

This is the problem I had with WoW. People spend way too much time theorycrafting and not enough time just enjoying the game. It's always "I want my class to be number 1!" (you even said that yourself back when you mentioned you wanted "Vanguard to be on top.") It's annoying watching people whine about how X class does 1% more dps than Y class (in a completely optimal situation, which rarely happens in the real world) and call for nerfs. Or class X has an ability class Y doesn't so people complain that it's overpowered instead of using the tools they have themselves.

 

All this leads to in the end is homogenization of the classes. People end up being defined more by their roles than the class themselves, which takes away a lot of the fun. Just look at Paladin healers in WoW. Guys in full (pink) platemail armor, with a shield and hammer or mace in hand... and they're sitting in back next to the clothies spamming healing spells. Yeah, a couple of abilities are different, but in the end, they're just glorified priests, which isn't right, imo. Paladin's should be up front, dealing some damage, taking some damage and doing some healing. Shamans should be using their damaging spells to augment their healing spells. But they're not. Theorycrafting in the end lead to the demise of any kind of hybrid class and turned everyone into one of three roles.

 

It's why I like ToR so far. Guardian and Vanguard are both tanks, but with different skills and different ways of tanking. Commandos can be heal specced and actually do some dps while healing instead of just sitting back and spamming a healing rotation over and over. I don't want to see things become like they are in WoW with every class basically being the same as any other. In the end, that's all theorycrafting leads to.

Edited December 30, 2011 by KLGChaos

[psychosiszz]

LOL i thought this thread was a joke. I'm vanguard assault and destroy people in pvp and can get through pve mobs very quickly. Try changing your spec before complaining on the forum. I personally think shield spec will only be good at 50 with some good gear.

[icantbebigwill]

IMO the shield spec is way too squishy for the amount of damage you lose sub level 50. I'm assuming this all changes eventually, and it's quite easy to top the dps chart in a warzone because VG's sustained dps is fantastic.

 

Go hover over your damage though and see that your 2.5k high crit pales in comparison to the 4k+ that real dps classes dish out.

 

If bioware would just make a level 50 bracket we wouldn't be having so many issues anyway because once you hit 50 it's a whole new ballgame.

[fatduck]

http://www.torhead.com/ability/aKFwUzs

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/7D5zeMs

 

Both proc on shielding an attack

 

Both are vital to a vanguard's regen and damage output.

 

And since OP was talking about shield specialist, I know exactly how this class works.

 

Try again.

 

Learn 2 guard?

[fatduck]

3.) Vanguards do great dps, you just have to be geared appropriately. Oddly, Shield Spec does insane damage if you use dps gear over tank gear, even with Ion Cell up. I don't have the numbers, but I've been experimenting with it vs Tactics, and I'm almost convinced it does more damage than Tactics. Assault Specialist seems like it would be better, but I haven't done extensive testing with it yet.

 

Hard to say with no log but I suspect shield spec is capable of higher sustained dps due to stock strike cd resets and ammo mgmt. tactics has a better passive ammo buff but energy blast tips the scales. However tactics will have better burst damage with fire pulse and autocrit HIBs.