Thaladan Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 (edited) uninstalled game for me. paying a sub srly, no way. fix your game and balanced it ! always the same, nothing will change, sayonara. Edited May 28, 2016 by Thaladan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toraak Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 as much as I agree Marksman could use a small buff, honestly it's not that big of an issue, since Snipers do have 2 other really good specs atm. Should always learn at least 2 specs as a raider anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKnightJ Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 (edited) On the contrary; I think the nerf to SS/MM is a big deal. Many GS players liked playing SS, regardless of their personal skill level, since it was viable in all content. SS now is outperformed by almost every class/spec in the game - save for TK sage perhaps - in all end-game content. Even very skill players can barely put out passable dps numbers in NiM/HM content. When I can out-burst a SS in Sabo, there is a problem! How the other two top "fire and forget" burst specs (gunnery commando and combat sentinel) are left alone to continue dominating with 7K+ output, while SS languishes at <6.6K is beyond me. SS certainly does not need another dot - it's not a dot spec! It does need some sort of buff, whether that be to PR, AS or CB or some sort of stacking additive damage augmentation, is up to the "devs" to discern. Edited May 29, 2016 by JKnightJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyronamics Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 How the other two top "fire and forget" burst specs (gunnery commando and combat sentinel) are left alone to continue dominating with 7K+ output, while SS languishes at <6.6K is beyond me. It certainly is beyond you if those are the numbers you have in your mind. Even more so if you think dummy parsing is combat numbers, anyone holding up dummy numbers and saying to the world that those are what need to change is a monkey. Many classes lose a lot in combat while others gain a lot in combat. Or in specific target scenarios like multiple targets appearing or burst. Go and browse the metrics that starparse collects from its users: http://ixparse.com/stats/?boss=&metric=Toons Snipers are one of the most played and have a decent split between the 3 specs instead of being all stacked into one spec that is vastly better than the other(s) as marksman was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kvandertulip Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 (edited) Even more so if you think dummy parsing is combat numbers, anyone holding up dummy numbers and saying to the world that those are what need to change is a monkey. Many classes lose a lot in combat while others gain a lot in combat. Or in specific target scenarios like multiple targets appearing or burst. That is true, but MM doesn't really gain any dps over the dummy outside of aoe situations, while it certainly loses dps from any movement. The spec has primarily been a single target burst spec, not an aoe spec. Off the top of my head there is only one fight in the game where it makes sense to bring MM over the other two specs for its burst. No one is arguing that it shouldn't have been nerfed from the state it was in in 4.0, but saying that the other two specs perform well is a poor defense of the current state of Marksman. It really does need to be buffed. Edited May 30, 2016 by kvandertulip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toraak Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 (edited) how so? not every spec on every class is a viable spec for every fight. Fury Jugg for instance (think that is the AoE spec). That is basically what MM has turned into for snipers. MM/SS on Draxxis is very efficient, as it is on Cor Zero, and UL. There may be other fights i'm not thinking of since it is extremely late at night currently, but Marksman has never been the end all of Specs for every fight regardless. Personally if your looking for any buff, the auto refresh CD would be the only thing I'd really add. Buff Pen blast or ambush, and you'll run into PvP issues again (which would just mean another nerf later on again). Edited May 30, 2016 by Toraak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kvandertulip Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 (edited) how so? not every spec on every class is a viable spec for every fight. Fury Jugg for instance (think that is the AoE spec). That is basically what MM has turned into for snipers. MM/SS on Draxxis is very efficient, as it is on Cor Zero, and UL. There may be other fights i'm not thinking of since it is extremely late at night currently, but Marksman has never been the end all of Specs for every fight regardless. Personally if your looking for any buff, the auto refresh CD would be the only thing I'd really add. Buff Pen blast or ambush, and you'll run into PvP issues again (which would just mean another nerf later on again). At level you could have taken MM into any fight and be perfectly viable without being too overpowered. Now you can count one one hand the number of fights where MM is even an option now. They have proven in the past that there is the potential to balance this spec. There is no reason you should not be able to take MM into any fight and not be a total liability to your team. MM never has been, isn't, and never should be an aoe spec. It's just not how the spec is designed. A CD refresh would not be a dps increase. You would still have to reapply it for the Marked debuff. And as it was said earlier in the thread, it would make the spec just mindnumbingly stupid. It would take the spec from having 4 fillers in 1.0, to having 1 filler and a 100% static rotation. What the need to do to buff it short term is some combination of base damage increase to FT, Snipe, Ambush, or PB that increases sustained dps. Long term they need to make the spec more dynamic. They need to add another yellow damage filler that used smartly would increase dps, similar to how Sab Charge and Orbital Strike functioned in the past. Edited May 30, 2016 by kvandertulip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steefr Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 I think the unhappiness with the spec has nothing at all do to with the performance of snipers overall or the other 2 specs. Im' pretty sure it comes from a very specific place: the fights where marksman was supposed to be the go to spec (and was) like brontes nim, styrak nim, ec nim tanks, etc. Those fights were the logical choice would be marksman, are close to impossible to complete in marksman without being carried. I think this very is why people are upset with the spec, because it just doesn't make sense. You can't bring the burst spec for the burst fights. Sure virulence works there and it actually kinda works great tbh so you'll never hear me complaining about snipers but it's just not logical imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RikuvonDrake Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 (edited) I think the unhappiness with the spec has nothing at all do to with the performance of snipers overall or the other 2 specs. Im' pretty sure it comes from a very specific place: the fights where marksman was supposed to be the go to spec (and was) like brontes nim, styrak nim, ec nim tanks, etc. Those fights were the logical choice would be marksman, are close to impossible to complete in marksman without being carried. I think this very is why people are upset with the spec, because it just doesn't make sense. You can't bring the burst spec for the burst fights. Sure virulence works there and it actually kinda works great tbh so you'll never hear me complaining about snipers but it's just not logical imo. Consider tho that the reasons that you went MM on Brontes and Styrak were partly due to the natural burst of MM but furthermore due to the AoE damage reduction, especially on Brontes. With the removal of those utilities from MM to all specs, MM basically lost one of it's best selling points, while imo virulence basically lost nothing of value. I think the conundrum is how to make MM great again without impacting its PvP performance to much, the sustain as discussed earlier is an important part but I am not sure if it's enough, some minor defensive buff that you gain only via MM maybe? Edited June 1, 2016 by RikuvonDrake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steefr Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 Doubt a defensive buff is gonna make any sniper switch to an underperforming spec. Our defensives are already quite amazing for pve. If all our defensives are already adequate/great for pretty much any fight, adding more seems not neccessary and wouldn't convince anyone to switch specs. One way or the other, we need to get to arsenal/lightning sorc dps range. Maybe a bit lower but we need raw dps increase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlrikFassbauer Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 (edited) Two PvP discussions regarding this class : http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=884187 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=884205 I post them here to show that there are different points of view. Me, I've given uup. People convinced me that I'm a bad player with that class. I'm trying out other classes now, only in PvE. Edited June 4, 2016 by AlrikFassbauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaineOs Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 Two PvP discussions regarding this class : http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=884187 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=884205 I post them here to show that there are different points of view. Me, I've given uup. People convinced me that I'm a bad player with that class. I'm trying out other classes now, only in PvE. No offense intended to Dagi in the slightest but I thought that was an odd vid to post in the pvp forum. A vid comprising of nothing but ambush hits isn't likely to go down favourably to the wider spectrum of players. As for the other one....it's well known that sorcs are very much fotm. For you personally dude, I've said many a time for you to record one of your warzones and post it so we can try to see where you're going wrong but you've never done so. You shouldn't be so defeatist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RikuvonDrake Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 (edited) Doubt a defensive buff is gonna make any sniper switch to an underperforming spec. Our defensives are already quite amazing for pve. If all our defensives are already adequate/great for pretty much any fight, adding more seems not neccessary and wouldn't convince anyone to switch specs. One way or the other, we need to get to arsenal/lightning sorc dps range. Maybe a bit lower but we need raw dps increase. Yea that is very true, we have quite a bit of defensives already but my thought was to remove something from utilities and add into default MM, but maybe that would be to much of a change up for Bioware to make. Overall tho I agree, a raw dps increase for MM sustain is needed. Two PvP discussions regarding this class : http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=884187 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=884205 I post them here to show that there are different points of view. Me, I've given uup. People convinced me that I'm a bad player with that class. I'm trying out other classes now, only in PvE. I dont see how either of these threads are relevant to the discussion or providing a secondary point of view on the discussion, one is a simple talk about which range is is good while some posters brings up the good and bad about eaach specc while some posters without much knowledge QQ:s a bit about certain speccs. The second thread is simply an ambush "big hits" montage, where OP does high ambush hits against sorcs and undergeared players in normal warzones. As already established somewhat in this thread, the burst aspect of MM is not in need of a buff, it's the sustain of the specc that needs a bit of a buff to make it a bit better overall in swtor gameplay, regardless if in pvp or pve. Edited June 4, 2016 by RikuvonDrake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaladan Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 (edited) let's be honest : merc arsenal is by far better..so many playing it after 4.5. heatseeker missile crit and instant damage, blazing bolt snare and damge is a joke compared to ambush and penetrating blast. sorc lightning is better. mobility, survivabilty, self heal, the 25%/50% chance of double proc damage (in pure power stuff), 35m range srly.. --> sniper is the weakest range spec, clearly whatever the spec. true dps spec is the badest...thx bioware. Edited June 4, 2016 by Thaladan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaineOs Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 we have quite a bit of defensives already but my thought was to remove something from utilities and add into default MM, but maybe that would be to much of a change up for Bioware to make. You'll have to elaborate on that a bit more dude. That to me sounds very dangerous because if I'm understanding you right, removing a utility and give it to MM would essentially be a nerf to the other two specs depending on what utility you're thinking of. What would the other two specs get in return that marksman doesn't have? Engineering for one hasn't received any love in quite some time, all they did with 4.0 is to give back a skill they removed from us in 3.0 (albeit in a buffed but also severely nerfed state). The best thing about it? They go and give it to all three specs which should never have happened (yup die hard engineering fan ). Whilst our defences might be good for pve I wouldn't say they are good for pvp, it's an entirely different ballgame... With respect my fellow sniping friend, please don't suggest buffs to marksman like this at a cost to the other two specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technohic Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 You'll have to elaborate on that a bit more dude. That to me sounds very dangerous because if I'm understanding you right, removing a utility and give it to MM would essentially be a nerf to the other two specs depending on what utility you're thinking of. What would the other two specs get in return that marksman doesn't have? Engineering for one hasn't received any love in quite some time, all they did with 4.0 is to give back a skill they removed from us in 3.0 (albeit in a buffed but also severely nerfed state). The best thing about it? They go and give it to all three specs which should never have happened (yup die hard engineering fan ). Whilst our defences might be good for pve I wouldn't say they are good for pvp, it's an entirely different ballgame... With respect my fellow sniping friend, please don't suggest buffs to marksman like this at a cost to the other two specs. Yeah. You're not going to get much support from me wanting to take something from other specs to buff MM. That implies that the other specs are over performing to begin with and I don't know about PvE, but in PvP; that's not the case. I'm with Baine on the eng/sab side of things getting the short end of the stick for a while, but I think our defenses are OK. I think we just lack reliable mobility as far as an escape. Covered escape is more of a kite tool IMO. For your MM issues in PvP. Do you think being able to do more on the move would help in the PvE area? Something like "While entrench is active, if you leave cover, the sniper is able to cast while on the move and remains uninterruptable and immune to movement impairing effects. You can however be subject to stuns and knockbacks." Maybe it's not using entrench but something else to allow cast/channel on the move. Would keep DPS up when having to avoid AOEs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RikuvonDrake Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 (edited) You'll have to elaborate on that a bit more dude. That to me sounds very dangerous because if I'm understanding you right, removing a utility and give it to MM would essentially be a nerf to the other two specs depending on what utility you're thinking of. What would the other two specs get in return that marksman doesn't have? Engineering for one hasn't received any love in quite some time, all they did with 4.0 is to give back a skill they removed from us in 3.0 (albeit in a buffed but also severely nerfed state). The best thing about it? They go and give it to all three specs which should never have happened (yup die hard engineering fan ). Whilst our defences might be good for pve I wouldn't say they are good for pvp, it's an entirely different ballgame... With respect my fellow sniping friend, please don't suggest buffs to marksman like this at a cost to the other two specs. Yea I am not really sure what I would prefer to have adjusted, but my line of thought was to ensure that MM becomes the optimal and go-to spec on a bit more fights just like it was earlier, for example, the AoE reduction was MM exclusive earlier making it the default on fights with loads of AoE damage. I am not saying this is what I want to have introduced, but I liked the concept of players not only looking at the DPS side but also on the defensive for optimal performance in raids. I personally prefer Virulence so I understand the issue of wanting not to have Viru or Engi nerfed, but my thought is that the same spec shouldn't be optimal for all boss fights in endgame like Viru is today. I am just speculating and didn't really spend that much time looking at optimal utilities to be removed but were more thinking overall of ways to bring back MM to the PvE scene as a go-to spec, my first thought was looking back at what MM had earlier which made it go-to ahead of viru or engi. In regards to buffs to Engi/Viru, I honestly don't think it's needed, their performance is overall great both in PvE and to a certain extent also in PvP, tho more situational in the latter. IFurthermore, your opinion about our defensives not being enough for PvP, I respectfully disagree, I have seen that argument quite a bit in the PvP forum and when I study material or play warzones/arena it's more a result of bad positioning. Yeah. You're not going to get much support from me wanting to take something from other specs to buff MM. That implies that the other specs are over performing to begin with and I don't know about PvE, but in PvP; that's not the case. I'm with Baine on the eng/sab side of things getting the short end of the stick for a while, but I think our defenses are OK. I think we just lack reliable mobility as far as an escape. Covered escape is more of a kite tool IMO. For your MM issues in PvP. Do you think being able to do more on the move would help in the PvE area? Something like "While entrench is active, if you leave cover, the sniper is able to cast while on the move and remains uninterruptable and immune to movement impairing effects. You can however be subject to stuns and knockbacks." Maybe it's not using entrench but something else to allow cast/channel on the move. Would keep DPS up when having to avoid AOEs With all due respect, the discussion is about buffing MM performance mainly in PvE and in particular increasing it's sustained DPS, the aspect connected to PvP which we are discussing is we don't want the burst capabilities buffed, only the sustain. The discussion about defensives comes solely from an alternative I speculated about earlier for some form of redesign of MM defensives in order to make it go-to for boss fights with a certain type of damage. I dunno how long you played but pre. 3.0 MM was go-to for all heavy AoE fights, not due to it's damage but solely for its defensive capabilities, I was merely speculating about how something similar (again, I am not saying AoE reduction only to MM, but that the concept wasn't bad) could be a nice buff. In regards to your suggestion, no I don't think that being able to do stuff on the move would help MM whatsoever, what it needs is increased DPS and honestly not that much increase in movement. Additionally, it would have too much of an impact on the PvP side of things which is something that we would like to limit. We have drifted a bit from the topic tho, the suggestion about a redesign of the MM defensive capabilities was merely a suggestion to add towards it's viability in raids, the main suggestion regarding Corrosive Dart and Penetrating Blast are still what I feel is nessesary. Edited June 4, 2016 by RikuvonDrake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaineOs Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 Yea I am not really sure what I would prefer to have adjusted, but my line of thought was to ensure that MM becomes the optimal and go-to spec on a bit more fights just like it was earlier, for example, the AoE reduction was MM exclusive earlier making it the default on fights with loads of AoE damage. I am not saying this is what I want to have introduced, but I liked the concept of players not only looking at the DPS side but also on the defensive for optimal performance in raids. I personally prefer Virulence so I understand the issue of wanting not to have Viru or Engi nerfed, but my thought is that the same spec shouldn't be optimal for all boss fights in endgame like Viru is today. I am just speculating and didn't really spend that much time looking at optimal utilities to be removed but were more thinking overall of ways to bring back MM to the PvE scene as a go-to spec, my first thought was looking back at what MM had earlier which made it go-to ahead of viru or engi. In regards to buffs to Engi/Viru, I honestly don't think it's needed, their performance is overall great both in PvE and to a certain extent also in PvP, tho more situational in the latter. IFurthermore, your opinion about our defensives not being enough for PvP, I respectfully disagree, I have seen that argument quite a bit in the PvP forum and when I study material or play warzones/arena it's more a result of bad positioning. I see your thought process but you have to understand you would be running into the same issue, mm would have a buff making it a better choice over the other two specs. Unless you gave something to viru and engi, which would probably defeat the purpose, then it's going to have an adverse effect on the other two specs in pvp. Unless of course it was a buff that was only active in pve only but then I'd imagine that'd make it that much harder to actually implement on BW's part. Now regarding viru and engi in pvp it's worth noting I haven't pvp'd yet in 4.5 and probably won't for quite some time either so please bear that in mind. There are a lot of situations where burst of mm is far more suitable than the burst you can achieve with viru and engi. The amount of mobility and healing going on in the game is such that those two specs can suffer. Now that's not to say they aren't playable because they are but imo they could both do with a bit of a buff, especially viru tbh. The amount of purges in the game with all those blasted operatives, assassins and sorcs (that bubble of there's...) just makes playing the spec that much more annoying to play. There's a reason why marksman is the easiest spec out of the three and why so many play it over the others in pvp. The defences, well they're not awful no due to the reset skill we have. Having said that though it's on a three minute cooldown and it's entirely possible that you have to burn every defensive skill you have including the reset just to survive against one knowledgeable opponent. So what happens when you come up against another one when you haven't got your reset? Are our defences bad? No but they could definitely do with some work due to what we come up against. You know pvp is highly situational and depends greatly on who is on your team just as much as who you are against. Something I was told once by an assassin I was duelling still rings true in my ears, a sniper has to use his/her defences skills almost perfectly but even then that's no guarantee it's going to be enough, the opponent can make a couple of slipups and still come out on top (obviously the extent of that depends on the class you're against). Defences might need little to no changes required for pve but that's not the same for pvp. You can't compare the two (not that I'm saying you were...). For me, for all of the reasons I've stated to date and from what I've read here the best way to provide you with what you want is to buff the sustained damage. The trouble you have is by giving a burst spec better sustained you are bringing it into the realms of engineering and viru, i.e. you're taking it away from the kind of spec it was meant to be. If you give it too much sustained then by default you are making the other two specs more pointless. So what would the other two get to counter this? If you don't buff the sustained enough then it's not going to have the effect you pve'rs want. So what's the point of changing it? It's a very fine line we're talking about here and dare I say it....a problem BW themselves have created. In the meantime those of us who enjoy the class, both pvp'ers and pve'rs, have to suffer the consequences of the failed changes made by BW over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steefr Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 For me, for all of the reasons I've stated to date and from what I've read here the best way to provide you with what you want is to buff the sustained damage. The trouble you have is by giving a burst spec better sustained you are bringing it into the realms of engineering and viru, i.e. you're taking it away from the kind of spec it was meant to be. If you give it too much sustained then by default you are making the other two specs more pointless. So what would the other two get to counter this? If you don't buff the sustained enough then it's not going to have the effect you pve'rs want. So what's the point of changing it? It's a very fine line we're talking about here and dare I say it....a problem BW themselves have created. In the meantime those of us who enjoy the class, both pvp'ers and pve'rs, have to suffer the consequences of the failed changes made by BW over the years. Well nobody is saying (or atleast i am not) that you should buff marksman's sustained to viru or engi levels. That would require a buff of roughly 800 dps and would obviously be way too much. Buffing sustained dmg of marksman to by about 300-400 ish would be enough to make it atleast viable for nim content. I think and i hope this level of buff wouldn't throw pvp out of balance too much. Just buff penetrating blast + dart enough so that marksman can parse in the 6400-6500 range consistently (it's about 6,1-6,2 now in full 224 gear on average). While that wouldn't make it a go to spec in pve, it would make it strong enough i think, for those that really wanna play it, to be able to play it without hurting their group. While 3.0 was not a great example of class balance in many cases, it had one thing going for it: snipers could play any of the 3 specs on any boss and meet any dps check if skilled enough. You can't do that anymore and it's a shame. So yeah if you wanna do maximum dps you'd still play virulence or engi but if you prefer to play marksman or your group needs a armor reduction buff or whatever reason there can be to play marksman, then you could do it while still contributing enough dps to beat the checks. I don't think i'm (we're) asking for much here tbh. We'd still be doing lower dmg then arsenal mercs and lightning sorcs but we'd do enough dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaineOs Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 While 3.0 was not a great example of class balance in many cases, it had one thing going for it: snipers could play any of the 3 specs on any boss and meet any dps check if skilled enough. For pve 3.0 might have had something going for it but pvp it was the complete opposite. Marksman by far over performed compared to the other two specs. By the end of the 3.0 era there were no virulence snipers and you could count the number of engineering snipers on one hand. The vast majority were marksman and marksman only and as this entire topic is about making marksman more viable in pve I'm sure you can appreciate how viru and engi snipers felt during that awful era. Engineering was definitely playable in during 3.0 but marksman being so OP and so easy compared to the others meant hardly anyone played it. I don't want to see penetrating blasts buffed in any way shape or form because to do so only increases the specs burst, especially with the reset they have on the skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steefr Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 Well like i said, i wasn't proposing to buff marksman quite that much. In 3.0 marksman was abot same dps as engi and not that far behind virulence. So yeah we just need to find balance between the current state and 3.0. So yeah dps increase of 300 or so would work. If not penetrating blast buff, then corrosive dart + snipe crit chance increase ? of maybe add another small dot on penetrating blast similar to the dot that comes with series of shots on engineering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THAT_EPIC_GUY Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 Not replying to anyone specific's quotes here; rather more of a general reply to everything posted since I last checked here. MM dps buff; really just buff anything that isn't ambush or a surge buff and PvP will not be hurt. Even something like a passive which increases snipe, ft and pr damage by x %. I still disagree with a corrosive dart refresh simply because it dumbs down the rotation; your corrosive dart gcd is going to be replaced with more snipe spam then which I don't think is the best way to bring up the dps. Also had the thought of some sort of offensive feature to MM roll since both virulence and engi have offensive rolling capabilities. This does present the counter argument that MM already has a defensive roll (the entrench grant) and the other specs do not but everything of course is open to discussion. MM defensives: So Riku put forward a suggestion of giving MM some sort of defensive distinction over the other 2 specs to make it more appealing. To be fair it does (the previously mentioned entrench grant on roll) but that's tiny. Sniper defensives in general are amazing for PvE when damage is highly predictable and comes in a constant and steady stream. In PvP the defensives are indeed strong but the lack of a strong focus breaker makes snipers very susceptible in the current meta. I don't think giving MM exclusively such a focus breaker is a wise move. But the suggestion of making MM appealing for a reason other than dps is interesting. Burst fights: People are disappointed because MM isn't as good as the other specs in burst fights. Brontes and Styrak have been mentioned for this but I believe 'burst' fights aren't really a thing tbh. Like Riku said, the big reason MM was popular for brontes at tier was the entrench aoe dr; if lethality had it too then I believe you'd see lethality having a bigger representation than MM because of higher overall dps plus pre dotting opportunities in each of brontes' 3 shields. For styrak; MM was only good because 3 cull rotation was not possible at tier. The introduction of 3 cull gives the sniper dot spec a rotation which is perfectly timed for the phases in that fight. When this happens; styrak has effectively turned into a sustained fight for snipers. The reason I point this out though is that if you are worried that MM dps buffs will go too far and impact PvP too heavily, you could easily justify a smaller buff if true burst was a bigger requirement in more fights. Even on the current iteration of the game; MM (despite how much of a weaker spec it is) outparses and outbursts virulence on styrak HM and this is simply because the phase timings in HM set the conditions necessary for a true burst spec to perform well despite low overall sustained. In NiM we see the transition to virulence superiority because the phases are not catered to burst specs (and yet so many consider this a burst fight). The issue is if you make NiM level true burst fights; many specs will become completely unviable for those fights and you will probably end up with the reverse; virulence complaints or something. But is it really a bad thing to have a meta which truly warrants a greater understanding and competency of all dps specs in your chosen class (at a NiM level at least)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skotal Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 oddly i feel like if the old OS was returned it would work adds a new ability to the rotation increases complexity of rotation and energy management concerns increase pve dps and allows for more sustained damage while moving pvp burst wont change as it is highly telegraphed and evadable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THAT_EPIC_GUY Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 oddly i feel like if the old OS was returned it would work adds a new ability to the rotation increases complexity of rotation and energy management concerns increase pve dps and allows for more sustained damage while moving pvp burst wont change as it is highly telegraphed and evadable As far as I understand; the reason for the original orbital nerf was because devs wanted it to be exclusively an aoe ability and not in the single target rotation so I don't see them rebuffing it to old levels. Engineering is the exception because I think the design intentions for that spec are to feature a lot of aoe within it (plasma probe, frag grenade, orbital are all used in the single target rotation). I don't think an orbital buff is the best way to go about a dps buff for MM in particular. Orbital does need some sort of tweaking I feel though. As it stands right now; orbital is almost worthless as an aoe ability just because of the strength of other aoe gcds amongst all sniper specs plus the fact orbital is highly positional and takes a long duration to deal significant damage. Orbital is more commonly used during moments of downtime to take advantage of the delay between activation end and the 1st damage tick; so right now it is more favored in single target. I do like the skill element this brings but at the same time I feel it should be more relevant as an aoe ability. I know this is sidetracked but this thread is getting to the point of discussing every issue snipers have lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skotal Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 As far as I understand; the reason for the original orbital nerf was because devs wanted it to be exclusively an aoe ability and not in the single target rotation so I don't see them rebuffing it to old levels. Engineering is the exception because I think the design intentions for that spec are to feature a lot of aoe within it (plasma probe, frag grenade, orbital are all used in the single target rotation). Yea they did it stylistically not for mechanics they probably wont do it but it would solve the dps problem without messing too much with pvp. but currently mm dps is exactly where they want it in relation to the other classes. the other solution is that operations bosses need to be re-designed to make mm useful. MM's failure in pve is based on poor operation design. past evidence shows the operations design team does not consider the capability of each class prior to designing each fight. (revan and the hold the line, reflect and the fire from torque) I don't think an orbital buff is the best way to go about a dps buff for MM in particular. Orbital does need some sort of tweaking I feel though. As it stands right now; orbital is almost worthless as an aoe ability just because of the strength of other aoe gcds amongst all sniper specs plus the fact orbital is highly positional and takes a long duration to deal significant damage. Orbital is more commonly used during moments of downtime to take advantage of the delay between activation end and the 1st damage tick; so right now it is more favored in single target. I do like the skill element this brings but at the same time I feel it should be more relevant as an aoe ability. I know this is sidetracked but this thread is getting to the point of discussing every issue snipers have lol. yea I want to bring OS back as useful has a great animation and no real value except as pvp denial or preemptive casts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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