Why are people still mad about no new raids?

[Slowpokeking]

Maybe... but given his aggressive anti-MMO stance all over the forum today, I'd like to hear it from him.

 

I don't think he is anti-MMO, he is right on many points that WOW style MMO had past its prime for a while. LOL alike game is the way to go right now. People no longer want to spend that much effort to find group and form guilds, they want "log on and be able to roll out" game style.

[Andryah]

I don't think he is anti-MMO, he is right on many points that WOW style MMO had past its prime for a while. LOL alike game is the way to go right now. People no longer want to spend that much effort to find group and form guilds, they want "log on and be able to roll out" game style.

 

Read ALL of his posts all over the forum. He believes MMOs are passe and that single player console games are where it is, OR an MMO that is single player (oxymoron or not). He is kind of all over the map on this stuff today, which is why I asked specifically in response to his post I quoted. Maybe he is just conflating some to help press his anti-raid stance... /shrug

Edited April 7, 2016 by Andryah

[Slowpokeking]

Read ALL of his posts all over the forum. He believes MMOs are passe and that single player console games are where it is, OR an MMO that is single player (oxymoron or not). He is kind of all over the map on this stuff today, which is why I asked specifically in response to his post I quoted. Maybe he is just conflating some to help press his anti-raid stance... /shrug

 

I prefer content with option, you should be able to solo it and run it with group as well.

[geschmonz]

Sincere question then..... why are you here subscribing to and playing this MMO?

 

Take a guess. Because its different from other MMORPGs. It has a ongoing story. It's more a RPG than a MMO.

[Killance]

Read ALL of his posts all over the forum. He believes MMOs are passe and that single player console games are where it is, OR an MMO that is single player (oxymoron or not). He is kind of all over the map on this stuff today, which is why I asked specifically in response to his post I quoted. Maybe he is just conflating some to help press his anti-raid stance... /shrug

 

There should be options for solo play in MMO's with opportunities to play with groups.

 

Why?

 

Not everyone has friends or friends who play games(much less MMO's in general). Forcing someone to talk to someone else isn't a good decision for any scenario. Its awkward and people hate being in awkward situations.

[LordTurin]

There should be options for solo play in MMO's with opportunities to play with groups.

 

Why?

 

Not everyone has friends or friends who play games(much less MMO's in general). Forcing someone to talk to someone else isn't a good decision for any scenario. Its awkward and people hate being in awkward situations.

 

There are plenty of solo play opportunities. Have you done all 8 class mission? Every planetary quest? Every heroic? Every bonus quest? Every planetary bonus line? Gotten every datacron (aside from the 3 that require a group)? Done every sidequest? Done every solo mode FP? I would agree that there needs to be plenty of stuff for both solo and group play, but I would argue that making it the same content doable by both is silly. Variety is the spice of life as they say, and that is especially true in MMOs.

[Killance]

There are plenty of solo play opportunities. Have you done all 8 class mission? Every planetary quest? Every heroic? Every bonus quest? Every planetary bonus line? Gotten every datacron (aside from the 3 that require a group)? Done every sidequest? Done every solo mode FP? I would agree that there needs to be plenty of stuff for both solo and group play, but I would argue that making it the same content doable by both is silly. Variety is the spice of life as they say, and that is especially true in MMOs.

 

Have to put ourselves in the mindset of the current generation of MMO players. Most current players want things to be done by one with an option to do it another way.

 

Separating the communities is something people no longer strive for.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

I don't think he is anti-MMO, he is right on many points that WOW style MMO had past its prime for a while. LOL alike game is the way to go right now. People no longer want to spend that much effort to find group and form guilds, they want "log on and be able to roll out" game style.

 

I am assuming you are talking about League of Legends? Which is a MOBA, people seriously need to learn the difference between a MOBA and a MMO. You may think they are the future or something, not sure, but personally I despise them. You can't really dismiss 1 group of players for another, I am sure there is a whole bunch of people, like myself, that cant stand MOBAs.

[benmas]

They even said before the new expac hit off that it will be story driven with no new raids. MAYBE we'll get one once the new main story is over, but that's just a maybe.

 

I mean really, why is this still a big thing? I think it was a great idea revamping all new dungeons/raids for max level, made a lot of people come back and even got the eyes of new people.

 

If you just play this game for raids then you're playing the wrong MMO.

 

I would be fine with this, IF THEY DIDN'T GET A PONITLES NERF.

 

if you revamp content don't take a dump all over it.

 

There is such a big gap between SM and HM now with players having no clue what a "tank swap" is, yeah I'm not joking about that. in a TFB HM pug (don't judge me) I said swap needed on 5 stacks of pulverized, and the tank said "what is a tank swap" he thought I meant we swap positions whilst keeping aggro on the same dread guard.

 

and the nerf THE NERF,WHY?! TFB SM 4th boss no swap needed easy tank and spank that doesn't even require you to destroy the towers with Nanites to clear.

 

TFB him self (or her) no swap on scream, in my 220 and 224 gear it hits for nothing.

[peter_plankskull]

Sure i have numbers. Of other MMORPGs and statistics from their playerbase. Blizzard Entertainment releases all their statistical data through their armory. And you get a half-year report of raid participation from fan sites.

 

Also i have a quote from Jeremy Gaffney, talking about solo players as the largest part of the MMORPG playerbase.

 

While i even doubt you know who Jeremy Gaffney is. Pro-Tip: Use Google

 

 

 

I base my opinions on arguments you obviously arent able to counter.

 

 

 

As i said, i have a lot of statistics from other games. I have interviews talking about player numbers and percentages playing organized raids. Sunwell in TBC, as an example, was seen by less than 1% of the wow playerbase those days.

 

Raiding always was, and always will be, minority gameplay.

 

I realize this is from like five pages back and such... but metrics like that are skewed. Comparing how many players ever stopped in a operation to the total number of accounts is not accurate, as some people play the game for a few minutes and instantly quit, or you got bots making accounts simply to scam people. etc etc.

 

A better metric would be to see the total number of accounts players has leveled a toon that has passed 50 and then if they entered a raid or not. That way players are don't go past the capital worlds aren't counted into that metric. I realize not the best... but surely better than now.

[Slowpokeking]

I am assuming you are talking about League of Legends? Which is a MOBA, people seriously need to learn the difference between a MOBA and a MMO. You may think they are the future or something, not sure, but personally I despise them. You can't really dismiss 1 group of players for another, I am sure there is a whole bunch of people, like myself, that cant stand MOBAs.

 

They are not the future, they are the present. I don't play any of them but I could understand why these games are becoming popular.

[Slowpokeking]

I would be fine with this, IF THEY DIDN'T GET A PONITLES NERF.

 

if you revamp content don't take a dump all over it.

 

There is such a big gap between SM and HM now with players having no clue what a "tank swap" is, yeah I'm not joking about that. in a TFB HM pug (don't judge me) I said swap needed on 5 stacks of pulverized, and the tank said "what is a tank swap" he thought I meant we swap positions whilst keeping aggro on the same dread guard.

 

and the nerf THE NERF,WHY?! TFB SM 4th boss no swap needed easy tank and spank that doesn't even require you to destroy the towers with Nanites to clear.

 

TFB him self (or her) no swap on scream, in my 220 and 224 gear it hits for nothing.

Even before the change, there are HUGE gaps between SM and HM.

[Alssaran]

Take a guess. Because its different from other MMORPGs. It has a ongoing story. It's more a RPG than a MMO.

 

If this game had 50% of the quality a single player RPG that is currently hitting the shelf has, we would see this game burn up subscriber numbers like crazy. The fact is that it currently is in a state of Schroedingers MMORPG. Many players who would otherwise buy and play a Bioware game won't touch it because of the MMORPG title. Most people who play MMORPGs - or this game - know that it is less of an MMORPG as it claims to be.

 

The sad truth is that - even if some people still want to deny it - this game cannot outperform things like Witcher 3, Fallout 4, Final Fantasy and some other RPGs hitting the market. You get ~50+ hours with those games. Fully voiced main story and side quests. A good engine and stable FPS. Nice graphics and good soundtracks.

 

If Bioware would re-invest all the money saved from other sources into making the story the best possible, we could tak. Right now? It borders on average at best, and average will not pull anyone away from other games. Not for any substantial amount of time.

[DalekTheCat]

If this game had 50% of the quality a single player RPG that is currently hitting the shelf has, we would see this game burn up subscriber numbers like crazy.

 

You get more "choices that matter", character development, and story in a single Fallout quest than you do in KotFE. It utterly fails as story content and I can't fathom how self-described "story players" could be satisfied with this.

[Latherfal]

"Your thoughts strong?"

 

"Strong hungry, could really use someone to eat."

 

 

 

If you have the cannibalism perk.

 

Strong:

"Watch out for fingers and toes, get stuck in teeth."

[DarthDymond]

They are not the future, they are the present. I don't play any of them but I could understand why these games are becoming popular.

^^Pretty much this^^ After all League of Legends brought in about $1.6 billion in revenue in 2015, not bad for a free-to-play game.

 

I consider MOBAs and MMORPGs to both be different subsets of MMOs in general, and it seems like a lot of industry reports / news sites do the same. Often people shorten MMORPG to just "MMO", so there's the potential for confusion there, but one can generally just rely on context to tell whether someone is talking about the MMO macro-category (that does include MOBAs) or the MMORPG subcategory (that does not include MOBAs) when they say "MMO".

 

(And honestly, I don't really know why MOBAs haven't made the whole "PVP is important to MMOs" debate irrelevant - I'm always shocked when someone says that they're here just for the PVP when MOBAs provide such a distilled PVP experience for online gamers.)

Edited April 10, 2016 by DarthDymond

[Slowpokeking]

^^Pretty much this^^ After all League of Legends brought in about $1.6 billion in revenue in 2015, not bad for a free-to-play game.

 

I consider MOBAs and MMORPGs to both be different subsets of MMOs in general, and it seems like a lot of industry reports / news sites do the same. Often people shorten MMORPG to just "MMO", so there's the potential for confusion there, but one can generally just rely on context to tell whether someone is talking about the MMO macro-category (that does include MOBAs) or the MMORPG subcategory (that does not include MOBAs) when they say "MMO".

 

(And honestly, I don't really know why MOBAs haven't made the whole "PVP is important to MMOs" debate irrelevant - I'm always shocked when someone says that they're here just for the PVP when MOBAs provide such a distilled PVP experience for online gamers.)

MOBA became popular because people no longer want to set schedule or set about 30mins-1hour to do group content much. They want to rock out whenever they want and every campaign shouldn't be too long.

[GrandLordMenace]

You get more "choices that matter", character development, and story in a single Fallout quest than you do in KotFE. It utterly fails as story content and I can't fathom how self-described "story players" could be satisfied with this.

 

^^^^

 

Pretty much this. Any other Star Wars game has more story and entertaining combat than TOR, if you're playing TOR for the story, you're honestly doing it wrong. MMOs should have story, yes, but at it's core it should be ABOUT THE WORLD of the game, not the story. Immersing yourself in an online world, whether it be group open world or instanced content, a vibrant economy, or a rich world to explore, is vital for an MMO. BW austin is content to build a game with no interaction between the player and the world, instead opting for a stupid story that you can barely effect, and isn't even good quality compared to any other form of star wars content. For much cheaper, you could get a monthly netflix subscription, or save up in a few months and get a new or old game. There's literally no reason to sub to this game long term right now, and that needs to change.

[peter_plankskull]

^^^^

 

Pretty much this. Any other Star Wars game has more story and entertaining combat than TOR, if you're playing TOR for the story, you're honestly doing it wrong. MMOs should have story, yes, but at it's core it should be ABOUT THE WORLD of the game, not the story. Immersing yourself in an online world, whether it be group open world or instanced content, a vibrant economy, or a rich world to explore, is vital for an MMO. BW austin is content to build a game with no interaction between the player and the world, instead opting for a stupid story that you can barely effect, and isn't even good quality compared to any other form of star wars content. For much cheaper, you could get a monthly netflix subscription, or save up in a few months and get a new or old game. There's literally no reason to sub to this game long term right now, and that needs to change.

 

I guess Bioware should finish designing the rest of those HK rewards then.

Edited April 10, 2016 by peter_plankskull

[killershrike]

MOBA became popular because people no longer want to set schedule or set about 30mins-1hour to do group content much. They want to rock out whenever they want and every campaign shouldn't be too long.

 

Sometimes I miss the old days, when 2 hour group content was considered "short"...

[DarthScruffy]

I like MMO's for group content, be it raids, flashpoints, PvP, or GSF. In fact my primary focus in this game is GSF (yeah, a shocker to some, but we're alive and still playing and having fun. And we encourage you to climb the gigantic learning curb and join us. Type "/cjoin GSF" for help, we're probably the nicest and most helpful community in the game.)

 

Now yeah, you're right, focusing purely on raids isn't commercially viable, but there were many other problems with Wildstar too.

 

But the fact of the matter is that we already have gone far too long without any group content, not even a flashpoint, and star fortresses are a grindy joke. Eternal Championship probably won't be much better. And they expect us to go at least another year before they probably announce whatever they're working on, and longer until it's released.

 

Last time I checked, an MMO that went 2 1/2 years without group content probably doesn't exist today.

 

~ Eudoxia

 

STO had a total content shutdown rivaling the current ops shutdown. But that was because the property was changing hands.

[Slowpokeking]

Sometimes I miss the old days, when 2 hour group content was considered "short"...

 

Yes, but it no longer works, SWTOR ops already reduced the number and length a lot.

[Ghisallo]

They even said before the new expac hit off that it will be story driven with no new raids. MAYBE we'll get one once the new main story is over, but that's just a maybe.

 

I mean really, why is this still a big thing? I think it was a great idea revamping all new dungeons/raids for max level, made a lot of people come back and even got the eyes of new people.

 

If you just play this game for raids then you're playing the wrong MMO.

 

Well first you miss the point, or purposely dodge the fact, that it is NOT just about Ops. It's about NO NEW repeatable or playable content. No new solo quest chains in the open world. No new FPs and yes, no new OPs. So why would people be complaining? For a host of reasons that an open minded and logical person can understand.

 

1. The people still here and complaining genuinely like SWTOR

 

2. The people complaining were basically sold a bait and switch argubaly. One month you have Eirc saying that they promise never to go as long as they did without a new OP as they did leading up to SoR... only a few months later being told "its all about the story."

 

3. the later makes no sense because this game proved at launch that being all about the story leads to a dropping population and all you have to do is look around to see that is precisely what is happening right now.

..... lets just look at data directly mined from SWTORs own server status: http://www.torstatus.net/shards/us/trends (you can change the time frame studied... extend it back to November and look at the obvious increase in light populations, especially starting in January.)

 

Why might this be the case? because this game was clearly placed on Maintenance mode. I can show you where the devs themselves sometime ago stated that the story has the cheapest up front costs, the problem is, as you can see from the Server Status rating, monthly subscription rewards to stay subscribed for 45 minutes of new story a month isn't working. On top of that the story we have is down right lackluster and the whole "consequence" thing is hogwash. The extent of the consequences is a different email, thats not a consequence.

 

They were given a shoe string budget to keep this game going in the lead up to the new movie release and so they said "all about the story" when in reality they should have said "all we can afford is the story." Even then the Story has no replay value, unlike the class specific stories at launch where on alts you could have a legitimately different experience.

 

SO why are they still complaining? Because while 100% story fans may be enjoying this, 100% story fans are simply another minority, along side those who like open world soloing, those who like Operations, those who like Flash Points and those who like all of the above. And this focus is clearly hurting the game we love.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Ghisallo

[DarthDymond]

Sometimes I miss the old days, when 2 hour group content was considered "short"...

Only thing I miss about those days was the fact that back then I actually had that kind of time to sink into a video game

[MalthusMalfoy]

I have been with the game since launch, but I find myself spending more and more time going back to Star Trek Online because of the lack of any form of Developer interest in issues that subscribers of all types have. Not just the retractions of claims for new ops, but actual issues, each patch is a dice roll to see what will break next. Forcing players onto Bit Raider and ignoring the crash issues is a prime example. PVPers have been screaming for new maps, and my guildies that are pvp fanatics are happy as can be right now with the new areas. The solo players in my guild are the first ones to jump in and devour the new chapters but few of them run the story line more than twice (once Pub and once Imp) so there is little to keep them hooked, about 8 or ten in our guild only log in for the new chapters now.

 

One good step Bioware took was to scale up the old content, because EV and KP at HM does make players learn mechanics and follow them. Raiding is far from dead and far from a niche population, plenty of pugging going on fleet, but the ops are getting dated and there are so many areas that should be expanded, Manaan is begging for an op.

 

Long term players need an occasional bone thrown to them to spark interest, re-skinning cartel items over and over will not always be an unending source of revenue.

 

There is plenty in the game that could be revamped to fill in the void left by no new massive ops that are costly to make. Why not take the event bosses and keep them around as a weekly mission where you have to take down TC, Eyeless, XENO and the Monolith for a reward. Linking their instance to an entrance on fleet should be fairly simple since other ops and flashpoints do it already.

 

For that matter instance the world bosses and turn them into single boss ops. I may be naive but it seems as though Bioware is not willing to think outside of the box when it comes to endgame content. It may just be a lack of new blood, but that is what work study programs with colleges and interns are for. They need experience to get good programming positions after graduation and would be working hard to make a name for themselves. There has to be a university nearby that would be willing to work with Bioware.