Why are people still mad about no new raids?

[Slowpokeking]

Much less effort for practically zero payoff ... it's not going to bring people running back to the game or keep them playing much longer because you are talking about a help for when people are a player or 2 short, nut running the entire operation solo or with a friend ( which will never happen ).

 

It's going to make the group easier along with the improved group finder and a bunch more changes, it's also going to help them on the direction of future content.

[VegasTheLost]

Wanna do OPS but cant find a tank for it? Roll a tank toon. Thats what I did. Oh and SM OPS for tanks are way less stressfull than for DPS. In SM OPS there is basically no tank mechanics, so all you have to do is grab the boss and position it to the desired place. The DPS will do(should do if they aren't a bunch of whackjobs) the rest. Healer? Same. Top everyone off, cleanse if you have to, move out of stupid. $$$Profit$$$.

 

As for HM OPS. They aren't for everyone, they aren't for just go in zerg the bosses down grab a loot a byebye. If you wan't to do HM OPS join a guild. If you really interested you won't have a problem finding 1-2-3 hours a week to play with them. Heck I work a lot and I still find 2 nights a week just for OPS, don't tell me it's hard. It's not.

 

NiM. You have to be dedicated to it. There is no other way around. If you can't do that, than sorry NiM is not for you.

[Jedi_riches]

Nobody is forcing anyone. Thats the beauty in suggesting a reward for doing something needed by others in the community. For an example,that poor guy with single gunslinger character that cant find an ops because there are no tanks will be first to benefit of it.

Do you know how many veteran players with literally maxed out character server numbers there are? And most of them do not join pug groups because they can easily find their own groups with their guildies.

If a reward is good/cool enough it will bring their tanks characters back to the people,so to speak. The gunslinger will gain from it.

 

No you are effectively stating that Tanks have a higher importance in the game and 'elevating' a certain sect of players above the others.

 

Just because someone cannot perform a specific role you are effectively punishing them by saying tanks get a special reward for their job but you don't get one for doing yours.

[IanArgent]

Wanna do OPS but cant find a tank for it? Roll a tank toon. Thats what I did.

 

At least you're honest about wanting to force people to have 2 or 3 characters. But "because I had to" isn't a justification for bad game design.

 

As for HM OPS. They aren't for everyone, they aren't for just go in zerg the bosses down grab a loot a byebye. If you wan't to do HM OPS join a guild. If you really interested you won't have a problem finding 1-2-3 hours a week to play with them. Heck I work a lot and I still find 2 nights a week just for OPS, don't tell me it's hard. It's not.

 

NiM. You have to be dedicated to it. There is no other way around. If you can't do that, than sorry NiM is not for you.

 

Now, this I more or less agree with - Hardmode+ Ops don't need to be tuned for pugs at all. I would also argue that the "easiest" HM Ops should be "harder" than the hardest SM Op. I doubt that's the case right now

 

It's why I haven't said a word against tactical trinity in HM FP - the SM ones are Tactical, and that's good enough for me. Likewise, I only really care that SM Ops (in theory) and the Story Mode of whatever replaces them be easily puggable, which means no or little trinity requirement.

[HollyUSEC]

Cause its the internet. People aren't happy unless they've got something to whine about.

 

ROFL. Thanks, I needed to hear that. I'm guilty of it myself sometimes.

 

But Killance (OP), let's take a look at the list of available raids.

 

There are five raids centering around the Dread Masters. FIVE. Explosive Conflict, Terror From Beyond, Scum & Villainy, Dread Fortress and Dread Palace. That's a lot of Operations based around one small little story arc. In fact, they built an entire new planet with a mini story arc and daily quest hub to prepare us for the last two Ops in that series.

 

As much as I like the S&V Op, There's only so many times I want to squash the Dread Masters. I'd really love to squash some more Exarchs who weren't hanging around by their lonesomes in the Star Fortresses. I'd really like to squash some of the strongest droid/skytrooper prototypes in Arcann's arsenal. And how about some Eternal Empire stooges who were powerful enough that only Arcann and Vaylin themselves could make those said stooges are stronger? Some of Arcann's most feared lieutenants? Even a couple of Flashpoints around tha theme would have helped.

 

Original SWTOR got KP and EV. KP could have been a good setup for the RotHC story arc. Maybe it even was and I never knew it. SOR got Ravagers and ToS. The Dread Masters story arc got five, and that arc wasn't even a full expansion. KOTFE is getting zero? It will take til the next expansion to get one new Ops?

 

That's a long time to be locked to no further growth than 216's or maybe some 220's. People need to be able to continue growing their toons or they're gonna get bored with them. Ask anyone who played The Sims 2. That game had a feature where their characters could achieve enough ambitions that their personal happiness would never go low enough that another crisis would happen. People usually rolled new Sims at that point.

 

MMO's are more transient than ever. They're a dime a dozen and people drift from game to game wherever the grass starts to look green. Bioware can't afford not to give people what they want. If they want new Ops, Bioware had better GIVE them new Ops. Look how fast Blizzard ate crow when it became clear that more than half their entire player base would leave the game unless they got flying in Draenor, no ifs ands or buts--- either they GOT it or they quit the game. One little feature. Blizzard ate their own words so fast, a few of them probably got indigestion.

 

MMO's may be just a game, but people make friendships in them. Some friendships last beyond the games into RL. You know how many people got married to someone they met in a game? Try telling THEM that it's JUST a game.

 

People who pay subscription fees have feelings. They have ambitions. They have wants. Some of those wants may be childish, but nobody is unjustified in refusing to pay for something that doesn't feel like their money's worth. And an expansion with no new Ops feels like exactly that to a lot of people. Can you blame them for being PO'ed?

[VegasTheLost]

At least you're honest about wanting to force people to have 2 or 3 characters. But "because I had to" isn't a justification for bad game design.

 

Force them? No. It's just an alternative. My crew needed a tank to do OPS. I said why not? It worked for me, expanded my game fun, knowledge, understanding and we had to enjoy raiding together. Also wouldn't call it a bad game design. I know that other games are evolved new approaches towards bigger group content, however as we know this game is form the "old times". So the rules are old as well as the engine where these rules are implemented. To change this is a massive resource and time sink. Better yet develop a whole new game from scratch AND invent new rules AND implement them. So asking now to change up group composition rules for a complex content makes zero sense. I would rather roll a new tank toon while I wait for SWTOR 2 if it's happening at all, at least I can raid in the mean time....

[IanArgent]

Force them? No. It's just an alternative. My crew needed a tank to do OPS. I said why not? It worked for me, expanded my game fun, knowledge, understanding and we had to enjoy raiding together. Also wouldn't call it a bad game design. I know that other games are evolved new approaches towards bigger group content, however as we know this game is form the "old times". So the rules are old as well as the engine where these rules are implemented. To change this is a massive resource and time sink. Better yet develop a whole new game from scratch AND invent new rules AND implement them. So asking now to change up group composition rules for a complex content makes zero sense. I would rather roll a new tank toon while I wait for SWTOR 2 if it's happening at all, at least I can raid in the mean time....

 

For the record; I am not arguing that they go back and make the old ops "tactical." Too much effort for too little gain. I'm arguing that whatever we get as group content next not have hard trinity requirements. The only reason I mention old ops content at all is to use as examples, since we can see how hard it is to get into a pug ops group as a DPS. It's about opening up group play to more players and new players, not just having it for the vets. Which means including the people who have just leveled one character for the first time.

[DisIzMe]

No you are effectively stating that Tanks have a higher importance in the game and 'elevating' a certain sect of players above the others.

 

Just because someone cannot perform a specific role you are effectively punishing them by saying tanks get a special reward for their job but you don't get one for doing yours.

 

Sect? Cannot perform?

Anyone and their grandmother can roll a tank and act as one in story mode operations. And if someone is getting a reward for filling a demanding role, other people are been rewarding by finally having a freaking tank available,not being punished.

 

I really cannot grasp why the idea that someone who is doing demanding job that is beneficial to others is going to get something extra for it is triggering "but its not fair" response. You would rather to shout for 2 hours on fleet that you need 2 tanks instead of running 2 operations in that time and getting the loot? This is fair?

Its the analogy of you getting 5$ if someone will get 6$,and you shout "not fair" and both get nothing. Its insane.

[Jedi_riches]

Sect? Cannot perform?

Anyone and their grandmother can roll a tank and act as one in story mode operations. And if someone is getting a reward for filling a demanding role, other people are been rewarding by finally having a freaking tank available,not being punished.

 

I really cannot grasp why the idea that someone who is doing demanding job that is beneficial to others is going to get something extra for it is triggering "but its not fair" response. You would rather to shout for 2 hours on fleet that you need 2 tanks instead of running 2 operations in that time and getting the loot? This is fair?

Its the analogy of you getting 5$ if someone will get 6$,and you shout "not fair" and both get nothing. Its insane.

 

You can tank all you want but without DPS you will hit enrages, so why reward a tank for doing his job if you are not going to reward a DPS for doing theirs? its a GROUP effort so you all get equal chance at the rewards as everyone has their own roles to fore fill.

[Tsetso]

You can tank all you want but without DPS you will hit enrages, so why reward a tank for doing his job if you are not going to reward a DPS for doing theirs? its a GROUP effort so you all get equal chance at the rewards as everyone has their own roles to fore fill.

 

Because that's not communism. It's supply and demand. If the supply of tanks for GF is too low, the most logical action would be to encourage tanks to tank GF ops.

 

[EDIT]

The other logical action would be to decrease the demand for tanks. GW2 tried that by removing the trinity system and my personal experience is that i'm not impressed

Edited April 21, 2016 by Tsetso

[DisIzMe]

You can tank all you want but without DPS you will hit enrages, so why reward a tank for doing his job if you are not going to reward a DPS for doing theirs? its a GROUP effort so you all get equal chance at the rewards as everyone has their own roles to fore fill.

 

Because there is shortage of tanks for pug groups. Bigger reward for tanks will allow more dps to get access to the group content. This is not reward for a tank to do a tank's job,it is reward for agreeing to tank a pug that can be full of leaping sentinels with no idea of what aggro drop is. Bad tank rarely can annoy good dps,bad dps can make a pug run a living hell for a tank. And i am not talking about low dps or enrage here.

I run a lot of pugs on healer and even in that role i feel the tanks angst and despair when dps are leaping before them to boss fights ,do not take care of low health mobs and force tank to waste much needed taunts due to dps not using aggro drops. Who would q for that torture if one can have fun tanking with a guild?

Edited April 21, 2016 by DisIzMe

[IanArgent]

Because there is shortage of tanks for pug groups. Bigger reward for tanks will allow more dps to get access to the group content. This is not reward for a tank to do a tank's job,it is reward for agreeing to tank a pug that can be full of leaping sentinels with no idea of what aggro drop is. Bad tank rarely can annoy good dps,bad dps can make a pug run a living hell for a tank. And i am not talking about low dps or enrage here.

I run a lot of pugs on healer and even in that role i feel the tanks angst and despair when dps are leaping before them to boss fights ,do not take care of low health mobs and force tank to waste much needed taunts due to dps not using aggro drops. Who would q for that torture if one can have fun tanking with a guild?

 

Someone still must play the tank role; regardless of whether they want to or not. (Likewise healer). And there is no way setting a "bigger reward" for tanking/healing will exactly and continually make the demand for tanks match the supply for tanks - either it won't be good enough, or it will be too good and there will be a shortage of one (or both) of the other roles.

 

Hard trinity mechanics demand someone play the "rare" roles. We know because of the changes to flashpoints that the population of characters who want to play group content is not 1/1/2, not even close. Making new group content requiring hard trinity is pouring more game design effort into a no-longer-relevant group content paradigm.

 

For pug grouping purposes, nobody should have to change characters to get into a group. I don't care how easy, how rewarding, whatever, changing characters is; nobody should have to do it.

[Quraswren]

Then it's going to be a problem if people refuse to be that role. It means the system needs to change. You can't force people to play the roles they don't want to play. How can you say it's not related to the system if people don't want to play the vital roles of this system?

 

Then you are talking about having to deal with the lesser of 2 evils kind of thing. The trinity is the better way to go. Removing that system and it being FFA, come all. Thats a cluster "F" not worth playing and is much worse.

 

There needs to be adjustments to tanking so they don't carry so much of the weight all the time. The trinity system doesn't need to change so much as the tanking does. Right along with healing. DPS as well to some degree. If that means making tanking interesting/less stressful etc... then that needs to be done. Removing the trinity is a scenario that was never entertaining enough given my experience tactical FPs.

 

I think SF got many flaws like being too long and the fight is boring, but it was on the right track because it didn't force you to group with many people, 2 is enough to rock easily.

 

That place was a throw away gimmick and barely worth running. Time after time people went different direction, did their own pulls. Little to no organization. Fine content if it means little to nothing but not something I'd push for HM FP or any real group content when you talk 8 and 16 man.

[Jedi_riches]

Because there is shortage of tanks for pug groups. Bigger reward for tanks will allow more dps to get access to the group content. This is not reward for a tank to do a tank's job,it is reward for agreeing to tank a pug that can be full of leaping sentinels with no idea of what aggro drop is. Bad tank rarely can annoy good dps,bad dps can make a pug run a living hell for a tank. And i am not talking about low dps or enrage here.

I run a lot of pugs on healer and even in that role i feel the tanks angst and despair when dps are leaping before them to boss fights ,do not take care of low health mobs and force tank to waste much needed taunts due to dps not using aggro drops. Who would q for that torture if one can have fun tanking with a guild?

 

So how about sub-standard tanks who 'tank' just for the additional reward, I mean any DPS/Tank character can do it it does not mean they will do it well. Groups will rarely kick tanks from a group due to them being like rocking-horse **** so you will have lots of DPS tanks queing as tank just for some extra gain.

 

I mean if I 'pull my weight' just as much as the tank I would still expect the same rewards.

 

I think a lot of the problem stems from the fact that many players simply don't want to tank due to many groups expectations, similarly to healing I mean tanks get a bashing if they don't have 100% aggro on all mobs and heals if they let a single player die. Many of these problems stem from the social group aspect of the community and will not be fixed anyway with any additional rewards.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Jedi_riches

[Tsetso]

So how about sub-standard tanks who 'tank' just for the additional reward, I mean any DPS/Tank character can do it it does not mean they will do it well. Groups will rarely kick tanks from a group due to them being like rocking-horse **** so you will have lots of DPS tanks queing as tank just for some extra gain.

 

That's how we all start. We suck, we gain experience we get better.

[Jedi_riches]

That's how we all start. We suck, we gain experience we get better.

 

Not necessarily, many people would do it without any though about improving as many players would just go "O shiny I want it" without really doing a tank job it would all be about the reward.

[Diviciacus]

I could go for a new raid; I'm a big fan of things like that. I like new challenges, and it fosters a good sense of guild community to have large-group content to work on; even if it was just a single world-boss like the Ziost Monolith.

[Max_Killjoy]

That's how we all start. We suck, we gain experience we get better.

 

Too many just keep sucking.

[xkcurtisx]

I could go for a new raid; I'm a big fan of things like that. I like new challenges, and it fosters a good sense of guild community to have large-group content to work on; even if it was just a single world-boss like the Ziost Monolith.

 

Yeah that lasted exactly one night for us.... no point having one boss operations. release like 5-10 bosses make them progressively harder and several difficulty levels. That's how it should be, but probably never will.

[Slowpokeking]

Then you are talking about having to deal with the lesser of 2 evils kind of thing. The trinity is the better way to go. Removing that system and it being FFA, come all. Thats a cluster "F" not worth playing and is much worse.

 

There needs to be adjustments to tanking so they don't carry so much of the weight all the time. The trinity system doesn't need to change so much as the tanking does. Right along with healing. DPS as well to some degree. If that means making tanking interesting/less stressful etc... then that needs to be done. Removing the trinity is a scenario that was never entertaining enough given my experience tactical FPs.

But people don't want to play two of the trinity roles, it's not fun to them.

 

So that's like what I've been saying, nerf the trinity system.

 

 

That place was a throw away gimmick and barely worth running. Time after time people went different direction, did their own pulls. Little to no organization. Fine content if it means little to nothing but not something I'd push for HM FP or any real group content when you talk 8 and 16 man.

Because the drops aren't really good, but it got many good points.

[Slowpokeking]

Wanna do OPS but cant find a tank for it? Roll a tank toon. Thats what I did. Oh and SM OPS for tanks are way less stressfull than for DPS. In SM OPS there is basically no tank mechanics, so all you have to do is grab the boss and position it to the desired place. The DPS will do(should do if they aren't a bunch of whackjobs) the rest. Healer? Same. Top everyone off, cleanse if you have to, move out of stupid. $$$Profit$$$.

So it's just forcing people to play what they don't want to play.

 

As for HM OPS. They aren't for everyone, they aren't for just go in zerg the bosses down grab a loot a byebye. If you wan't to do HM OPS join a guild. If you really interested you won't have a problem finding 1-2-3 hours a week to play with them. Heck I work a lot and I still find 2 nights a week just for OPS, don't tell me it's hard. It's not.

 

NiM. You have to be dedicated to it. There is no other way around. If you can't do that, than sorry NiM is not for you.

 

What are they for? If only some guilds could do it, then we got the current situation: Too few people doing it=not worthy to throw money into.

[VegasTheLost]

So it's just forcing people to play what they don't want to play.

 

What are they for? If only some guilds could do it, then we got the current situation: Too few people doing it=not worthy to throw money into.

 

Do you even read bro'?

[Slowpokeking]

Do you even read bro'?

 

Yes I did.

[VegasTheLost]

Yes I did.

 

Seems you don't.

[Slowpokeking]

Seems you don't.

 

I did. You are still pretty much ignoring others' difference. Not everyone has a raiding guild, most of the raids are formed by pugs. If pugs can't do it, it simply blocks many people out. The era is different now, players prefer short and time flexible content rather than long ops.