A challenge to the 'elite community'

[Finnlaf]

Given the current skill level of new players these days, I believe its up to the elites to step up and fill a very gaping void. everyone has some sob story of noobs making you wanna punch something. However I think we need a different approach instead of the "go learn how to play" response. Am making this post partly bcos a lvl 65 just assured me that the HM FP (red reaper) we just ran was the first ever he had completed since he started playing and I kinda felt sorry for him.

 

Let me state here that I am strongly against kicking players who dont understand a fight since it ultimately doesnt solve anything, either they find end game content too hard and quit playing or get angry and stick to only the story (I wont be surprised if all those against raiders are players that have been kicked once too often from group contents; I once met a real pitiful case during a tact FP, a lowbie was asking if we want to kick him).

 

To put it simply, elites have to bear the burden, by this I mean get on your tank or healer and let ur dps toon gather dust for awhile. most group content can be controlled to an extent by these 2 roles and its very rare that if these 2 roles are properly played the HM FP would fail.

 

Its getting tiring having to explain to tanks that they are in the wrong stance, or to healers that they dont need or can even use shield and absorb mods or worse that off heals wont cut it, more often than not, even a badly geared dps can be carried somewhat even if you have to skip the bonus boss. (as a tank u might be forced to switch some tanky gear for dps just to help the group)

 

These roles are considered somewhat authoritative (especially the tank; i.e. 'war leader') and playing them i believe very strongly would lead to more frequent pops as well as smoother runs on HM FPs as well as preparing noobs for HM/NiM ops.

 

Thanks

 

PS: I play only on the BC server and if this doesnt apply to your server then I sincerely apologize for wasting your time.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Finnlaf

[xkcurtisx]

Given the current skill level of new players these days, I believe its up to the elites to step up and fill a very gaping void. everyone has some sob story of noobs making you wanna punch something. However I think we need a different approach instead of the "go learn how to play" response. Am making this post partly bcos a lvl 65 just assured me that the HM FP (red reaper) we just ran was the first ever he had completed since he started playing and I kinda felt sorry for him.

 

Let me state here that I am strongly against kicking players who dont understand a fight since it ultimately doesnt solve anything, either they find end game content too hard and quit playing or get angry and stick to only the story (I wont be surprised if all those against raiders are players that have been kicked once too often from group contents; I once met a real pitiful case during a tact FP, a lowbie was asking if we want to kick him).

 

To put it simply, elites have to bear the burden, by this I mean get on your tank or healer and let ur dps toon gather dust for awhile. most group content can be controlled to an extent by these 2 roles and its very rare that if these 2 roles are properly played the HM FP would fail.

 

Its getting tiring having to explain to tanks that they are in the wrong stance, or to healers that they dont need or can even use shield and absorb mods or worse that off heals wont cut it, more often than not, even a badly geared dps can be carried somewhat even if you have to skip the bonus boss. (as a tank u might be forced to switch some tanky gear for dps just to help the group)

 

These roles are considered somewhat authoritative (especially the tank; i.e. 'war leader') and playing them i believe very strongly would lead to more frequent pops as well as smoother runs on HM FPs as well as preparing noobs for HM/NiM ops.

 

Thanks

 

PS: I play only on the BC server and if this doesnt apply to your server then I sincerely apologize for wasting your time.

 

The 'elite' part of the community wont ever touch the groupfinder button just saying.

[auroroavalor]

I've never heard of any l33t HM FP players, but if there are any I'm sure they'll happily tell tanks they're in the wrong stance.

[THAT_EPIC_GUY]

The 'elite' part of the community wont ever touch the groupfinder button just saying.

 

I like to do the occasional Flashpoint.. I'm not elite in Curt's eyes

[MuskyBoy]

Given the current skill level of new players these days, I believe its up to the elites to step up and fill a very gaping void. everyone has some sob story of noobs making you wanna punch something. However I think we need a different approach instead of the "go learn how to play" response. Am making this post partly bcos a lvl 65 just assured me that the HM FP (red reaper) we just ran was the first ever he had completed since he started playing and I kinda felt sorry for him.

 

Let me state here that I am strongly against kicking players who dont understand a fight since it ultimately doesnt solve anything, either they find end game content too hard and quit playing or get angry and stick to only the story (I wont be surprised if all those against raiders are players that have been kicked once too often from group contents; I once met a real pitiful case during a tact FP, a lowbie was asking if we want to kick him).

 

To put it simply, elites have to bear the burden, by this I mean get on your tank or healer and let ur dps toon gather dust for awhile. most group content can be controlled to an extent by these 2 roles and its very rare that if these 2 roles are properly played the HM FP would fail.

 

Its getting tiring having to explain to tanks that they are in the wrong stance, or to healers that they dont need or can even use shield and absorb mods or worse that off heals wont cut it, more often than not, even a badly geared dps can be carried somewhat even if you have to skip the bonus boss. (as a tank u might be forced to switch some tanky gear for dps just to help the group)

 

These roles are considered somewhat authoritative (especially the tank; i.e. 'war leader') and playing them i believe very strongly would lead to more frequent pops as well as smoother runs on HM FPs as well as preparing noobs for HM/NiM ops.

 

Thanks

 

PS: I play only on the BC server and if this doesnt apply to your server then I sincerely apologize for wasting your time.

 

Just out of curiosity, what happens when you hit enrage on bosses because the "elite" tank is doing more damage then your basic attack spamming dps?

[naNuke]

There is enough resources online for whole game that anyone with bit of brain can do the research themselves.

 

The "true elites" are just people who dont hesitate to invest their own time and thought process thinking about how to improve, how mechanics works, how to make boss fights smoother, etc etc, they just do it by themselves because they kinda like the game.

 

Now if we are speaking pug runs, one just need to read a rotation guide, gather some derp crystals for noob gear and go practice on a dummy... then it takes literally 1 minute to read a boss guide and know what you are supposed to do.

 

What you are proposing is nice but entirely pointless because those who want to be taught will just do so by themselves and you can't teach those who don't give a ****.

[trashy_spartan]

I main all three tanks imp/rep side and I used to pug HM FPs a lot until 3.0.

During 3.0, you had to have at least a good dps to down Korriban droid, Manaan last boss pre-nerf, BH first boss and Rishi last boss but you couldn't carry two bad dps. And I won't speak about killing adds as a tank faster than the dps during Tython first boss. So I stopped pugging HM FPs.

 

I have pugged a few times since 4.0 and I found that pug quality has worsened. Now, I only do guild runs (3dps/1healer because tanks are a waste of time in a HM FP), two manning with my GF or soloing them (or trying to solo ).

Edited April 3, 2016 by trashy_spartan

[Finnlaf]

There is enough resources online for whole game that anyone with bit of brain can do the research themselves.

 

The "true elites" are just people who dont hesitate to invest their own time and thought process thinking about how to improve, how mechanics works, how to make boss fights smoother, etc etc, they just do it by themselves because they kinda like the game.

 

Now if we are speaking pug runs, one just need to read a rotation guide, gather some derp crystals for noob gear and go practice on a dummy... then it takes literally 1 minute to read a boss guide and know what you are supposed to do.

 

What you are proposing is nice but entirely pointless because those who want to be taught will just do so by themselves and you can't teach those who don't give a ****.

 

Ok I will use myself as an example, I basically started playing a few months b4 the companion nerf. Let me state here that I never bothered with any guide during my leveling, and I learnt basically by changing mods after getting my *** handed to me and reading the item description on my skills and the mods.(this is ofc pre god-healer companions). After visiting the trainer and finding some new skill, I always wanted to try it out, cant remember how many times I have pushed mobs off on KDY to get even more of them and very often my group pissed since we would wipe at that point. Or using grp taunt as a dps shadow cause I wanted to see how it works or trying to mind maze droids . . . that list is endless.

 

The point is most people learn from experience (esp bad ones), and that has been denied the new god-healer generation. Getting to level 65 in one week doesnt give you much chance to die and learn from it; you can stand in stupid and be fine, spam basic attacks and kill silver mobs, . . etc. There is little or no reason why I will bother reading a guide if am apparently fine without it.

 

Rotations and gearing guides become an issue only in group content, and this is the void am asking the 'elite community' to fill. If you consider this pointless then we might as well stick to single player story mode only because an average noob player has zero motivation to bother with anything but button spam during his leveling experience.

 

Think Naruto, not Sasuke

[Finnlaf]

Just out of curiosity, what happens when you hit enrage on bosses because the "elite" tank is doing more damage then your basic attack spamming dps?

more often than not if I am healing I would suggest than the tank respec to dps (works better if one of the noobs have some sort of tanky toon) if not then the tank/dps can always single taunt and I will try to over heal. If however the healer sucks then I think you might have to give everyone cookies for effort and call it a day.

[xkcurtisx]

I like to do the occasional Flashpoint.. I'm not elite in Curt's eyes

 

have you ever ragequit one cos what you saw was unbearable?

[RikuvonDrake]

Ok I will use myself as an example, I basically started playing a few months b4 the companion nerf. Let me state here that I never bothered with any guide during my leveling, and I learnt basically by changing mods after getting my *** handed to me and reading the item description on my skills and the mods.(this is ofc pre god-healer companions). After visiting the trainer and finding some new skill, I always wanted to try it out, cant remember how many times I have pushed mobs off on KDY to get even more of them and very often my group pissed since we would wipe at that point. Or using grp taunt as a dps shadow cause I wanted to see how it works or trying to mind maze droids . . . that list is endless.

 

The point is most people learn from experience (esp bad ones), and that has been denied the new god-healer generation. Getting to level 65 in one week doesnt give you much chance to die and learn from it; you can stand in stupid and be fine, spam basic attacks and kill silver mobs, . . etc. There is little or no reason why I will bother reading a guide if am apparently fine without it.

 

Rotations and gearing guides become an issue only in group content, and this is the void am asking the 'elite community' to fill. If you consider this pointless then we might as well stick to single player story mode only because an average noob player has zero motivation to bother with anything but button spam during his leveling experience.

 

Think Naruto, not Sasuke

 

I and many of the "elite" agree with your point regarding level, before it would take you a few days and some of the content was actually a bit challenging so you had to use most of the abilities that you had learned, like interrupt, stuns and occasional LOS. Now you can get a lvl 65 in 10 minutes without learning rotation, when and how to use your utility abilities and all that stuff.

 

I however disagree with your point, people who are interested in improving and becoming better will learn from wipes or disbanded FP/Ops groups and check guides for bosses or/and speccs so they can ensure it don't happen again. I am a DPS and for most raiding content with my guild I normally run that role, but with pugs I almost exclusively play Healer or Tank just cause of the reasons that you mention, however it's not uncommon that people just want to get carried and have no interest in learning.

 

Overall, I feel like a lot of players think that they are really good cause bosses die, regardless if they just killed someone by not saving on Operator, clicking or releasing at the wrong time on Kephess or *********** up **** in general on Terror from Beyond. I just think a lot of people cannot see when they are doing a mistake or reflect on their own performance after a boss goes down, more wipes = better players, having experienced players in the operations on key spots is likely to mean easier bosses will go down, even if most of the group are *********** up mechanics. Is that good? Short term maybe, people get loot but long term there is no lesson to be learned, if they wiped maybe one or two would reflect what they did wrong and improve for the future?

 

Honestly mate, I dunno if your solution is the best or even what other alternative we have, but it's clear the learning experience in this game is removed and new players experience at the endgame content is suffering the consequence.

Edited April 3, 2016 by RikuvonDrake

[MuskyBoy]

Last time I did a HM FP my group enraged with 60 k health left on Koriban Incursion droid boss inspite of me doing 5.8k dps. Why because the marauder in the 3 pulls we did died every time to the first AOE. I asked him to use blood thirst, did he do it of course not. I told him to use undying rage on the first AOE, did he? no. I told him to spec in 30% AOE damage reduction the response was "can I borrow 200 k". So despite a boss have 1.1million health and one dps doing about 780-800 k on the boss (as well as taking out the adds) the boss still enraged at 2:30. Having me tank wouldn't have made any difference.

 

While this may belong in the "weird people in gf" thread its unfortunately this is closer to the the norm as opposed to an anomaly.

Edited April 3, 2016 by MuskyBoy

[Khevar]

While this may belong in the "weird people in gf" thread its unfortunately this is closer to the the norm as opposed to an anomaly.

Good grief! What server are you on that THAT is the norm for you?

[JouerTue]

i stopped insisting on teaching newbies since kuat dropped.

i give the occasional advice but only if the player is willing to listen, something rare nowadays.

also being grouped with low levels for anything kinda killed GF for the lulz for me.

[naNuke]

Ok I will use myself as an example, I basically started playing a few months b4 the companion nerf. Let me state here that I never bothered with any guide during my leveling, and I learnt basically by changing mods after getting my *** handed to me and reading the item description on my skills and the mods.(this is ofc pre god-healer companions). After visiting the trainer and finding some new skill, I always wanted to try it out, cant remember how many times I have pushed mobs off on KDY to get even more of them and very often my group pissed since we would wipe at that point. Or using grp taunt as a dps shadow cause I wanted to see how it works or trying to mind maze droids . . . that list is endless.

 

The point is most people learn from experience (esp bad ones), and that has been denied the new god-healer generation. Getting to level 65 in one week doesnt give you much chance to die and learn from it; you can stand in stupid and be fine, spam basic attacks and kill silver mobs, . . etc. There is little or no reason why I will bother reading a guide if am apparently fine without it.

 

Rotations and gearing guides become an issue only in group content, and this is the void am asking the 'elite community' to fill. If you consider this pointless then we might as well stick to single player story mode only because an average noob player has zero motivation to bother with anything but button spam during his leveling experience.

 

Think Naruto, not Sasuke

 

What you mentioned is called messing around if you do it on purpose, if not its called being a retard. It is actually cool thing to do and nice learning experience that teaches you something about how the game works and what can you expect if you do something stupid, maybe even find a new way how to skip that trash pack etc etc...

 

But again we are talking pug runs here, you just dont do that **** in a pug run and waste everyones time just because you want to try something stupid and see if it works the way you expect it to work...

 

Do that with one or two friends, mess around in a fp and push random trash around and see what happens.

 

The whole issue comes down to simple fact of "not wasting time of others". Learn mechanics, do what you are supposed to do, point out mistakes of others, sure, the pug will go smoother, but everything else doesnt belong to a pug, it belongs either to progression guild or a group of friends having fun.

Edited April 3, 2016 by naNuke

[Finnlaf]

What you mentioned is called messing around if you do it on purpose, if not its called being a retard. It is actually cool thing to do and nice learning experience that teaches you something about how the game works and what can you expect if you do something stupid, maybe even find a new way how to skip that trash pack etc etc...

 

But again we are talking pug runs here, you just dont do that **** in a pug run and waste everyones time just because you want to try something stupid and see if it works the way you expect it to work...

 

Do that with one or two friends, mess around in a fp and push random trash around and see what happens.

 

The whole issue comes down to simple fact of "not wasting time of others". Learn mechanics, do what you are supposed to do, point out mistakes of others, sure, the pug will go smoother, but everything else doesnt belong to a pug, it belongs either to progression guild or a group of friends having fun.

 

First off we are basing this discussion on people who are noobs, in basic, that means they dont know mechanics, dont know what they are supposed to do, the friends you speak of do not exist for most players. I think in my original post I stated that the 'go learn how to play' approach isnt working. Kinda easy to figure out, where are they supposed to learn? Fact is tacticals are the training ground for group content, if you want a clean fast run, feel free to group up with those friends and give the noob a fighting chance.

 

Of course am not proposing allowing for repeated stupid mistakes, sometimes pushing mobs together allows for easier aggro control, sometimes you might end up aggroing 2 diff groups. Let it happen if its an understandable mistake, and like I said, you cannot realistically expect too much from a noob who is still testing the waters. which by the way is the rather large group that this thread is trying to help.

[Slowpokeking]

First off we are basing this discussion on people who are noobs, in basic, that means they dont know mechanics, dont know what they are supposed to do, the friends you speak of do not exist for most players. I think in my original post I stated that the 'go learn how to play' approach isnt working. Kinda easy to figure out, where are they supposed to learn? Fact is tacticals are the training ground for group content, if you want a clean fast run, feel free to group up with those friends and give the noob a fighting chance.

 

Of course am not proposing allowing for repeated stupid mistakes, sometimes pushing mobs together allows for easier aggro control, sometimes you might end up aggroing 2 diff groups. Let it happen if its an understandable mistake, and like I said, you cannot realistically expect too much from a noob who is still testing the waters. which by the way is the rather large group that this thread is trying to help.

 

I think newbies aren't the worst players you can get from pug run, the worst players are always rage quitters.

[Slowpokeking]

What you mentioned is called messing around if you do it on purpose, if not its called being a retard. It is actually cool thing to do and nice learning experience that teaches you something about how the game works and what can you expect if you do something stupid, maybe even find a new way how to skip that trash pack etc etc...

 

But again we are talking pug runs here, you just dont do that **** in a pug run and waste everyones time just because you want to try something stupid and see if it works the way you expect it to work...

 

Do that with one or two friends, mess around in a fp and push random trash around and see what happens.

 

The whole issue comes down to simple fact of "not wasting time of others". Learn mechanics, do what you are supposed to do, point out mistakes of others, sure, the pug will go smoother, but everything else doesnt belong to a pug, it belongs either to progression guild or a group of friends having fun.

But some mistakes should be allowed, 1-3 wipes or a few deaths throughout the whole run isn't a big deal. Some players just can't endure it, they ragequit after 1 death, 1 wipe, or even quit during the middle of the final boss fight when it could be done.

[MuskyBoy]

Good grief! What server are you on that THAT is the norm for you?

 

Perhaps I get bad pug RNG but this happens on the harbinger. I don't pug much but I have other post 4.0 stories that annoyed me far more then this one. The point I was trying to make is getting "elite" players to tank or heal can be robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[VegasTheLost]

While I agree with you to some point OP, the truth is mentioned here:

 

What you are proposing is nice but entirely pointless because those who want to be taught will just do so by themselves and you can't teach those who don't give a ****.

 

A lot of raiders are happy to help anyone IF that someone is interested in getting better. But if that someone don't ask questions and don't give a **** than it doesnt matter how many times one types down the general tactics during a pug run.

[Finnlaf]

Perhaps I get bad pug RNG but this happens on the harbinger. I don't pug much but I have other post 4.0 stories that annoyed me far more then this one. The point I was trying to make is getting "elite" players to tank or heal can be robbing Peter to pay Paul.

 

I dont have any statistics to back this up but am fairly certain most noobs will be more comfortable trying out new stuff as dps, I cant recall how many times I have read in group chat that the tank should try the FP as a dps first b4 attempting to tank it. Tanks generally have somewhat more complicated roles to understand than dps. Even considering the FP you mentioned, the tank still has to avoid all those aoes as well as keep boss and those adds taunted. Also, when looking for mission objectives, most of us will blindly follow a tank than a dps. I can keep going but I think these will suffice as to why the tank and/or heals should be the experienced/elite player.

[Finnlaf]

A lot of raiders are happy to help anyone IF that someone is interested in getting better. But if that someone don't ask questions and don't give a **** than it doesnt matter how many times one types down the general tactics during a pug run.

 

Learning a lot of times is about an enabling environment, all am proposing is that we help create that environment as much as possible. There will of course be the occasional *** wipe, and the really smart ones; but to put every noob in either category seems like a great injustice to the average player. If it has gotten to the point that a noob now asks if we are going to kick, then clearly a highly negative image has already been formed. To balance the scale will require some measure of sacrifice, and yes it might cost u a few repair bills.

 

Let me further buttress this point by recounting a tactical FP with 2 noobs and another level 65; the first whisper I got was from the fellow level 65 who wanted us to kick the noobs because they don't know the fight. That unfortunately wasn't an isolated case, and herein lies the problem.

[Kufuffelupagus]

As a few others have stated, I'm only willing to teach those who are willing to learn. If someone is doing "wrong", I will give them some friendly advice on what they should be doing instead. For example, I had to endure a HM FP with an Assassin tank who not only used Depradating Volts with less than 3 stacks of Harnessed Darkness but they kept interrupting the cast... They also never pulled from stealth... Anyway, after saying that it was okay that they were new (they told me after I asked) and I would help them, they ignored nearly all of the advice I gave them, the only thing they improved upon was occasionally pulling from stealth. Even after I reminded them of everything again halfway through. That tank went on /ignore because I have no time for grouping with people who cannot or will not learn. My sub, my time, my decision not to play with those kinds of players.

 

The players that will take the time to learn will either go out and get the information, ask for it, or at least apologise when they screw up and say they are new, which then opens up an opportunity for a more experienced player to offer some advice.

 

What you should really be asking is for players to take the time to learn about their abilities, class, and role, and to ask for help when they need it. The people who kick new players or treat them badly probably aren't here and don't give a toss what you think.

[VegasTheLost]

I only can speak for myself and I'm way far from an elite raider. However I pulled through quite a lot newbies in different raids with many vipes with my crew. I'm happy to help, I don't mind the repair bill and I'm patient. But I only can do this much, if someone is not listening or not interested it's not on me. Just yesterday a guildie and me pulled through some folks on HM Dread Guards, they knew the fight on SM and that helped, took us 3-4 pulls to make it. Also being on ToFN not really helps the general game population's knowledge but I'm sure others are helpful as well.

[MuskyBoy]

I dont have any statistics to back this up but am fairly certain most noobs will be more comfortable trying out new stuff as dps, I cant recall how many times I have read in group chat that the tank should try the FP as a dps first b4 attempting to tank it. Tanks generally have somewhat more complicated roles to understand than dps. Even considering the FP you mentioned, the tank still has to avoid all those aoes as well as keep boss and those adds taunted. Also, when looking for mission objectives, most of us will blindly follow a tank than a dps. I can keep going but I think these will suffice as to why the tank and/or heals should be the experienced/elite player.

 

Maybe I need to tell you the story of the last time I healed a HMFP. It involved a 63k hp shadow face tanking Colonel Daksh's laser optical phase while an achievement free sentinel proceeded to tell me I'm a bad healer when he and the tank were basically one shotted. I even pulled the tank on one pull to the boxes in the hope that he would realise that you can't face tank that phase, alas he just stood there and died. It wasn't the tank that annoyed me (there is a tank shortage and good on him for giving it a go when so many won't), but the loud mouth sentinel in his unaugmented 208 gear. I left the group after he shot his mouth off. I looked his name up an hr later and he was still in maelstrom. I told him maybe next time he shouldn't talk so much crap and actually listen. He told me they one shotted the boss after I left and just had a DC. Before I could reply to him and tell him "that must be one hell of a DC if its taking an hr to clear half a fp" he had put me on ignore. It's not the role it's the player and their attitude.

Edited April 4, 2016 by MuskyBoy