Why premade is a problem?

[Yorioko]

Exactly.

 

But as OP here claimed.

 

THAT becuse others by chose made better preps, then you BEFORE they pvp, then sorry the fault lies with the TS.

 

After all NOTHING actually forbids one side to group up then selves.

 

Yes I can see how people that INSIST on PUGging groups will be frustrated that the oponent beats then EVERY time.

But again , they are then selves free at any time to make a group, then go and counter the other group.

 

And again to the majority the logic is flawed.

 

PVPers s a collective community say....we like to win for the sake of winning, we say this to explain why we demand so and so regarding bolster, teamwork, knowing some things in advance, read up on forums etc.

 

ALL this becuse they like to win and win for the sake of winning.

 

HOWEVER ANYONE and ALL that DO EXACTLY what the pvp community as a whole flat out and often in a very "snyde" way DEMANDS in other they simply forget them selves.

 

IF winning was THAT important then BOTH sides would create teams and Compete, or in other words Premade vs Premade.

 

BUT NO..............they don't.

 

Instead they whine and cry foul over people doing the exct thing they them sleves demand from others.

 

Again HOW being a group in pvp on a MMO is a problem escapes me

[aerockyul]

I love how people keep saying it's just predetermined. Especially Kweassa saying it while having that sig, lol. To put it bluntly, it's predetermined if you're bad. If you're even half decent, go ninja a node, use some focus targeting, you know that sniper or merc that can put out massive damage if they have the chance? how about matching their target and see what happens. Odds are it dies real quick-like. "but they'll have a healer and a tank and another 4 man group running with them!!!!" or you know, they won't... with the amount of healers running around these days if you don't have a healer on your side as well, that's not a premade problem that's a matchmaking problem. Why is it half the people on here have no problems but then you get these other people screaming bloody murder?

 

Wanted to say something to the same effect. Granted my experience is only on Harbinger, I have no idea how other servers are regarding pug-stomping premades, but more often than not the premades on Harbinger are just as derpy as the derpy puggers can be. It most certainly is NOT a predetermined win, except for the other team, because the premade and puggers on my team alike are so concerned about fighting at mid in every single match or inflating their dps numbers away from the objectives.

Edited March 13, 2016 by aerockyul

[-Bob-]

Then here's the issue in a nutshell.

 

WITH PREMADES, THE OUTCOME OF THE GAME IS PRE-DETERMINED BEFORE THE ACTUAL PROCESS OF FIGHTING ITSELF, DUE TO UNEQUAL STARTING CONDITIONS

 

Thats a fairly biased and ignorant point of view. My experiences going against premades while pugging have proven different many times over the past 4 years.

[MotorCityMan]

I am not against premades. Playing with friends is fun.

 

The fault lies with Bioware. Certain classes and mechanisms are more powerful and effective in pvp than others. As an example, currently sorc healers are well off. Combine their survivability with the tank guard ability, and they become Overpowering. Add to that, that currently a jugg can be immortal and provide the guard while having dps gear and also do outstanding damage with off the charts survivability. It is easy to see this. There are 50 jugg/guard tanks for every 1 PT/Vangaurd tank.

 

A premade is able to preselect OP classes for a warzone, chosing tanks, healers, stealth, the best dps. in order to stack the deck. Player skill is not so important as to what classes are chosen and combined. Along with VOIP communication, most pugs are at a distinct disadvantage.

 

Cross server queuing and match making would help but is never going to happen.

 

It is what it is. Get with a guild that does pvp and premade. If not, expect some drubbings and fewer victories as a pug.

[Yorioko]

I am not against premades. Playing with friends is fun.

 

The fault lies with Bioware. Certain classes and mechanisms are more powerful and effective in pvp than others. As an example, currently sorc healers are well off. Combine their survivability with the tank guard ability, and they become Overpowering. Add to that, that currently a jugg can be immortal and provide the guard while having dps gear and also do outstanding damage with off the charts survivability. It is easy to see this. There are 50 jugg/guard tanks for every 1 PT/Vangaurd tank.

 

A premade is able to preselect OP classes for a warzone, chosing tanks, healers, stealth, the best dps. in order to stack the deck. Player skill is not so important as to what classes are chosen and combined. Along with VOIP communication, most pugs are at a distinct disadvantage.

 

Cross server queuing and match making would help but is never going to happen.

 

It is what it is. Get with a guild that does pvp and premade. If not, expect some drubbings and fewer victories as a pug.

 

Any and all players that want to do PVP are free withing the TOS of the game to to this, yes ?

Free to research which classes do what, and then MAKE A TEAM that is next to impossible to beat?

 

Becuse if Both sides in the WZ are free to form premades ( at any time ) then sorry to say, if you choose not to the you also forfit your right to complain when other do it.

 

A slight digression though: When I see examples of classes here I more or less only see referances to the imperial versions. Sorc, Jugg PT etc.

 

So my question is this, if you pit a premade vs premade 100% mirrored in gear and all different bonuses, like datacrons etc..................and the two sides both with mirrored premades.........will these two then have a 100% fair fight.

 

Or rather is the imperial versions of lasses OP compared to rep side, I ask becuse I feel it may be the case, especially in pve, which I play the most.

 

I feel I kill faster with my imps then my reps, even when my reps are better geared

[peepa]

I am not at all critizing anyone other them tht cries foul fo no reson.

 

YOU decide to queue solo, KNOWING full well you will be in a PUG group, with the "risks" that intails, YOU STILL INSIST on doing this.....

The other side, have decided to team up in advance, after all TEAMING UP is sort of the bigger aspect of MMOs, so they do this.

Becuse they group up in advance, they will perform better.........much better then any group that has less planning ahead.

 

I really can't see the issue.

 

To me it sounds like this.

 

I want to play this MMO, I even PVP on it ALONE, but so happens that Groups beat me.................let's make groups aka TEAMWORK ( or the concept of an MMO) illegal so that groups in a MMO can't be done becuse I don't WANT to Group up.

 

PREMADES HAS NEVER NOR WILL IT EVER BE A PROBLEM, AFTER ALL PREMADES ARE PEOPLE GROUPING UP IN AN MMO, AND ONLY THAT.

 

So you are against having the option for solo players to queue up for warzones and another area for premade groups to queue up?

 

If you prefer to play one over the other how would having both take away from your enjoyment in your respective area?

 

There are ranked warzones and gsf. I don't personally want to queue for either. I do understand the fact that many players have a different opinion of mine and do want to queue for them. The fact that those options exist does not impact me at all or take away my enjoyment of the game.

 

So I don't understand why you are so against having the option. It doesn't make sense.

[Yorioko]

So you are against having the option for solo players to queue up for warzones and another area for premade groups to queue up?

 

If you prefer to play one over the other how would having both take away from your enjoyment in your respective area?

 

There are ranked warzones and gsf. I don't personally want to queue for either. I do understand the fact that many players have a different opinion of mine and do want to queue for them. The fact that those options exist does not impact me at all or take away my enjoyment of the game.

 

So I don't understand why you are so against having the option. It doesn't make sense.

 

I wouldn't mind that BUT

 

Nothing prevents me from queue syncing and thus having a premade yet again

 

so why not either accept facing premades, admitting to being on a MMO wich usually means teamwork.

and then make your own premade.

 

As long as you CAN queue you CAN qeue sync, so the only solutuon is to team up and be premades. or accpet the current

[kweassa]

I wouldn't mind that BUT

 

Nothing prevents me from queue syncing and thus having a premade yet again

 

so why not either accept facing premades, admitting to being on a MMO wich usually means teamwork.

and then make your own premade.

 

As long as you CAN queue you CAN qeue sync, so the only solutuon is to team up and be premades. or accpet the current

 

Wow. Good argument.

 

"I know its all shi**y and poopy for you, but you can't do a thing about it, nyah nyah."

 

....and they wonder why people don't take interest in PvP more.

Edited March 14, 2016 by kweassa

[Schoock]

Let me share my opinion here.

 

I used to queue solo for a long time. In the 2.0-3.0 era, when I was a beginner PvPer, 2 rep guilds used to farm regs. Usually when they were in queue, you could call it a night, or stay being slaughtered. Lots of times I just quit; there was simply no point going against them, they farmed everything they came across.

 

As those months and now years of experience came, and I got better, I started to see how insanely badly the average players play. What I did was that I asked random people I found good if they want to team up - they usually wanted to, and so my first premades were born. Now I'm a PvP guild and almost exclusively roll premades.

 

Unlike some people believe (and I'm pretty sure will continue to believe) I don't roll premades to roflstomp the enemy. Sure, it's fun to stall the whole 8-man group with your premade at the pylon, but, frankly, it gets boring pretty fast. The best matches are those when the enemy team also has a premade AND the pugs can pull their own weight.

 

By teaming up, you can ensure 2 things:

1. The roles (classes) of 4 people in the group.
   
2. The quality of 4 people in the group.
   

 

Now getting to the part why I'm rolling premades: because I want to win, or at the very least, not getting stomped. Shocking, I know, it's not what's taught nowadays, when everyone is a winner, and the 2nd place is just as good as (no, it's better, because it was honorably lost) the first one. While I'm not the best player out there, I believe I can pull my own weight in a warzone. This is something most "casual" players sadly cannot do.

 

As for why I don't queue team ranked:

1. As someone wise said on these forums, team ranked is not a queue, it's a player-organized event. It simply does not pop, unless you take extra effort to make sure other teams are queued as well.
   
2. Ranked only has arenas. I do like arenas, but the warzones are fun too, and you can't get them in ranked.
   
3. In ranked there's an expectation to do your absolute best to win. I don't always run with fully geared toons (I admit, I'm lazy to fully augment every single toon, some only have 204 gear), and we also play classes that are not viable for ranked. Ranked has its place, but it's not a replacement for regular queue with groups.
   

 

As I said before, I'm well aware how frustrating it is to play against good premades in a pug. (This is where I should note that not all premades are good. Some are just plain bad, and you wish you got some pugs instead.) There's one solution to that: team up. Really, it isn't that hard, and certainly doesn't require a PvP guild. Of course you can not even try and keep going solo, but then accept the consequences.

 

Also, as lots of others mentioned before, the solution to the "premade problem" would be proper matchmaking. It doesn't even require premades for a match's outcome to be decided before it even begins. Usually, if you get an arena with 4 derps and the other team has 3 derps and a healer, assuming equal skills, the team with the healer will win. Same applies to warzones. Yes, I know, I also have a screenshot where we, a full pug DPS team stomped one with 3 healers in Hypergates - but that requires some extremely bad play on the enemy's part, while your team is capable of doing its job.

 

Tl; dr: I'm doing my best to secure victories against any group (premade or pug) for myself. Of course you don't have to do the same, but then you'll have to suffer the consequences for not doing so.

[kweassa]

Thats a fairly biased and ignorant point of view. My experiences going against premades while pugging have proven different many times over the past 4 years.

 

Care to ask the rest of the population the same question? Is the generally disdainful sentiment towards premades entering reg matches not enough of an evidence that people hate it?

[kweassa]

Let me share my opinion here.

 

I used to queue solo for a long time. In the 2.0-3.0 era, when I was a beginner PvPer, 2 rep guilds used to farm regs. Usually when they were in queue, you could call it a night, or stay being slaughtered. Lots of times I just quit; there was simply no point going against them, they farmed everything they came across.

 

As those months and now years of experience came, and I got better, I started to see how insanely badly the average players play. What I did was that I asked random people I found good if they want to team up - they usually wanted to, and so my first premades were born. Now I'm a PvP guild and almost exclusively roll premades.

 

Unlike some people believe (and I'm pretty sure will continue to believe) I don't roll premades to roflstomp the enemy. Sure, it's fun to stall the whole 8-man group with your premade at the pylon, but, frankly, it gets boring pretty fast. The best matches are those when the enemy team also has a premade AND the pugs can pull their own weight.

 

By teaming up, you can ensure 2 things:

1. The roles (classes) of 4 people in the group.
   
2. The quality of 4 people in the group.
   

 

Now getting to the part why I'm rolling premades: because I want to win, or at the very least, not getting stomped. Shocking, I know, it's not what's taught nowadays, when everyone is a winner, and the 2nd place is just as good as (no, it's better, because it was honorably lost) the first one. While I'm not the best player out there, I believe I can pull my own weight in a warzone. This is something most "casual" players sadly cannot do.

 

As for why I don't queue team ranked:

1. As someone wise said on these forums, team ranked is not a queue, it's a player-organized event. It simply does not pop, unless you take extra effort to make sure other teams are queued as well.
   
2. Ranked only has arenas. I do like arenas, but the warzones are fun too, and you can't get them in ranked.
   
3. In ranked there's an expectation to do your absolute best to win. I don't always run with fully geared toons (I admit, I'm lazy to fully augment every single toon, some only have 204 gear), and we also play classes that are not viable for ranked. Ranked has its place, but it's not a replacement for regular queue with groups.
   

 

As I said before, I'm well aware how frustrating it is to play against good premades in a pug. (This is where I should note that not all premades are good. Some are just plain bad, and you wish you got some pugs instead.) There's one solution to that: team up. Really, it isn't that hard, and certainly doesn't require a PvP guild. Of course you can not even try and keep going solo, but then accept the consequences.

 

Also, as lots of others mentioned before, the solution to the "premade problem" would be proper matchmaking. It doesn't even require premades for a match's outcome to be decided before it even begins. Usually, if you get an arena with 4 derps and the other team has 3 derps and a healer, assuming equal skills, the team with the healer will win. Same applies to warzones. Yes, I know, I also have a screenshot where we, a full pug DPS team stomped one with 3 healers in Hypergates - but that requires some extremely bad play on the enemy's part, while your team is capable of doing its job.

 

Tl; dr: I'm doing my best to secure victories against any group (premade or pug) for myself. Of course you don't have to do the same, but then you'll have to suffer the consequences for not doing so.

 

We call that a 'sellout'.

 

Instead of doing to help others avoid the pain and frustration of impossible odds, you simply got better, and then decided to do the same to others.

 

But you've got one thing right about matchmaking though. It's as simple as that.

 

Simply, make premades ALWAYS meet premades. That would suffice for most unranked reg matches -- so when the queue system detects a premade queueing on one side, it won't pop until there is another premade on the other side. Seems like a good compromise, and most solo queuers won't mind this situation at all.

 

If you don't get any queues popping for a long time, it means your team is the only one who has made a premade during that time, so if you wanna do PvP, break up and solo queue.

 

Fair deal, no?

[Schoock]

We call that a 'sellout'.

If you don't get any queues popping for a long time, it means your team is the only one who has made a premade during that time, so if you wanna do PvP, break up and solo queue.

Fair deal, no?

 

It's an MMO. It's not MY fault that YOU don't group up. Stop trying to punish me for it.

 

Assuming it can be done without significantly longer queue times for either parties, it's OK to ask that premades be put against other premades. But that would require matchmaking, and if Bioware ever decides to implement it, maybe it will turn out that simple role-based matchmaking solves the whole issue.

[jedcjedcjedc]

it means your team is the only one who has made a premade during that time, so if you wanna do PvP, break up and solo queue.

Fair deal, no?

"If you want to do it, you have to do it my way or not at all"

Pretty sure that's as far away from the definition of fair as you can get.

[Technohic]

I think people are missing the point of the OP. Either that or I am.

 

At any rate; the emotional extremes are both right and wrong at the same time. Premades are not a problem. Facing Premades with random unskilled PUGs is a problem but not the problem or real issue. The problem is lack of matchmaking and that is in part due to an issue with lack of population.

 

People should be able to premade with friends in actual 8s; as it is an MMO (sort of) and yes; at the same time, you should be able to queue solo and be able to have fun without getting stuck being stomped by individuals or groups that are better than you whether it is by skill or coordination.

 

We've been over this a million times and it gets nowhere because everyone wants to blame the other people playing the game rather than the people who make it; which is just as much of a lost cause I suppose.

[Ruhun]

I just gave up and started to group up too.

You can't beat them, might as well join them.

[Yorioko]

This all comes down to the "fair fight" issue

 

Naturally a player after his 8th PUG with ALL 8 being vs Premades, maybe even same premade IS ANNOYING.

BUT is not any form of exploit, it is not unfair, and it is not wrong, but yes it is annoying.

 

A fair fight in SWTOR pvp can only had if players was "naked" and had a stick each, that is the only true fair fight.

 

Now, I can see solo players for a million reasons choosing to NOT premake. BUT on the same time this solo palyer do have the option.

 

To me this means this : There is no rule saying that only ONE SIDE can run premades, nor is there anything other then the solo player that really prevents him to premake him self, or join.

ANy and ALL solo queuers know and thus accept that they are now in a pug, with ALL what that includes.

 

It includes a random selection of queuers, including people with no skill, or even no business at all in pvp, let alone in the WZ............by solo queueing this is by default ACCEPTED.

 

Then this solo player and the pug group met a premade and they loose.( most cases)

 

WHERE is the PREMADE here doing WRONG?

They are NOT cheating, not breaking TOS,etc etc. Or rather NOTHING AT ALL WRONG.

 

Yet the solo queuer complains...............and over what .............he lost.

A LOSS! LOL

 

BUT even though this player HATES to loose he has 0 interest in actually making an effort to win, is better to complain against those making such effort.

 

 

Then back to very Important thing, PUG groups.

 

It is becuse most times pug groups is made up of randoms, with random experience in pvp, meaning it will be a weaker team, then ANY premade, that don't mean it is loss.

 

Most if not all premdes have 1 HUGE weakness...............it is tactics

They are set in a tactic and keeps to it, is the best way for a group to keep order in rnks...............and get an edge in a fight.

 

BUT it is also a weakness, weakness becuse IF, the soloqueuers took but a few seconds and used the minute or so countdown to quickly set roles, then finding out the team we face are premades, let them have the round, get their tactics, then use the tactics against them.

Disrupt, target what appears to be their leader, NOTICE team, and don't expect to win in this 3 round match.

Next time you face the premade team, you know how to dirupt their tactics................or cut the head of the snake

And BAM!

 

So is all about this: group up, not say you can't. Premades do is what makes them premades

[Floplag]

On the one hand you have the pro argument, "its an MMO", "playing with friends", "its within the rules", etc...

On the other you have the anti point of view, "its not fair". "i shouldn't have to face groups as solo", premades belong in ranked", etc...

Who's right... BOTH!

 

I used to be firmly in the "anti" camp but just as reg pvp has to be new user friendly, there also has to be a place for teams to prepare for ranked play. I've come to realize that there simply is no solution to it, we dont have the population at this point for separate queues and teams need the ability to play as a team to prepare for ranked play. Until such time as they fix PvP and hopefully bring players back this is what it is and reg WZs are the catch all of PvP.

 

The 2 things that gets me the most is the premade guys trying to deny their advantage and confusing winning with skill. I have said many times i would challenge many of you to play solo more in addition to group play cause playing with guards/heals makes you lazy. Even I as a lousy merc can facetank with that kind of backup, it doesn't make me a better player. If you were smart you would help build the community more instead of just farming it but very few have any interest in that. Props to those who do

 

Solo players, we have 2 choices, join a team or take our chances. Alas my reputation for being outspoken against some of these teams means I'm staying solo as most of them have me on their focus list, which is fine for me i went solo for a reason, to get better, facing teams under focus makes me better, i got my wish. Sometimes a little too much but its my own doing. Of late ive chosen to leave some matches that were obviously imbalanced, there no fun or benefit to taking part in them anymore. Either way complaining about it ad nauseam is a double edged sword, if you get your wish you also get significantly longer queue times due to lesser people in queue as solo. Is that really what you want?

 

This is simply the current state of reg PvP, I've reached acceptance.

[jedcjedcjedc]

premades do not "belong" in ranked. people in groups are not banished to 1 corner of the game. look at any part of just about any MMO and you'll see people grouping up, whether it's pvp or pve. Sure you can go at it solo, but in most cases doing so means that big bad boss monster is going to stomp your *** 6 ways into next week.

[Yorioko]

premades do not "belong" in ranked. people in groups are not banished to 1 corner of the game. look at any part of just about any MMO and you'll see people grouping up, whether it's pvp or pve. Sure you can go at it solo, but in most cases doing so means that big bad boss monster is going to stomp your *** 6 ways into next week.

 

This is a great point you make.

 

I have tons of time in pve heard the following : it can be soloed easily......

and with that people don't team up, and it actually turns out it is not for the challenge of going solo per say, but a mindset that have slowly evolved that says : if it CAN be done then that how MUST be done.

 

When I started playing I at times asked for help in story missions, I then found some hard, the companions worked differntly and alot was different from now, but that aside.

 

more often then not, even with heroics, the "TONE" in which people said thing could be soloed , ment that they felt it HAD to be that way only.......

 

I feel I see much the same in the aspects of pve vs pvp in MMOs and on both sides a feature they prefer becomes the whole game ( to them).

 

If we now take this to groups and pvp.

Becuse you CAN doesn't mean you must, I am sure there are no ONE WAY to win any map in pvp.

Becuse you CAN solo queue don't mean you MUST

same goes with Premades, just becuse you CAN don't mean you must.

 

And the comes the real thing with this, non are wrong, but non are right either.

you CAN do it, be it solo or premake, but it is not a MUST.

But the evolved mindset we all have in one way or another tells us that CAN becomes MUST becuse that is our preferance.

And when we CAN premake, and this then becomes a MUST then we are wrong in making it a Must, but we are right in CHOOSING it as a Can.

[Neoforcer]

Let's say you are right. Then the only solution is to make solo queues truly solo queue. Meaning, all premades if they queue as a group get split up and randomly placed on a team for PVP.

 

What could make it work better is cross-faction queuing meaning letting pubs and imps play on the same side.

 

This would then make it possible to introduce a true matchmaking system where the game has a large number of players/classes that can be matched up for a better balance of teams.

 

No more 4 healers on one side, no more 8 man queue synced premades, etc. Lots of issues would be fixed imo if this kind of solo queue existed.

 

If people want to group up and stay grouped for 8v8 regs they should enter and be placed in a "group queue", and face other players who also are in groups that want to face other groups...

 

Ohhh... You don't like the long waits for queue pops in the group only queues? Well, take the solo queue then.

 

we would all just solo que sync and it still would be a premade. Big pvp guilds do this all the time count down to que because we do not have cross server it will always work.... The only fix to this is cross server it what wow and other mmo have cross server ques in the first place

Edited March 14, 2016 by Neoforcer

[foxmob]

we would all just solo que sync and it still would be a premade. Big pvp guilds do this all the time count down to que because we do not have cross server it will always work.... The only fix to this is cross server it what wow and other mmo have cross server ques in the first place

 

funny thing...around the time <the courageous> started working with <oc> on world bosses or w/e, they started q-synching too. it's really not something you want do be doing with 6-8 pve'ers. but w/e. lol

[Kyuuu]

Cross server WZ is the only way to solve problem of long wait times and making groups q only matched agaist group q and solo avainst solo, but i dont seem them wanting to do this.

[Yorioko]

Cross server WZ is the only way to solve problem of long wait times and making groups q only matched agaist group q and solo avainst solo, but i dont seem them wanting to do this.

 

You have 4, 8 people solo queueing, they can still queue sync to some extend, if you get a group of fairly experienced pvpver and even have the 30 sec prechat this group will 100% be raged up for being a premade.

 

The only logic and intelligent way to counter the so called problem of grouping in MMOS is

her we go......

ready?

 

It's to group up your self, OR even as little as bother use the countdown to set some base tactics, that is actually enough to beat many premades, ans it 100% enough to accused of being one.

[Kyuuu]

You have 4, 8 people solo queueing, they can still queue sync to some extend, if you get a group of fairly experienced pvpver and even have the 30 sec prechat this group will 100% be raged up for being a premade.

 

The only logic and intelligent way to counter the so called problem of grouping in MMOS is

her we go......

ready?

 

It's to group up your self, OR even as little as bother use the countdown to set some base tactics, that is actually enough to beat many premades, ans it 100% enough to accused of being one.

 

That is not the point... solo q should not be matched again group q, this is thing many people like you dont understand or are ingoring, adding to the problem does not fix it just make it more of issue.... and the people dont see that are also generally the people that dont want it to change, cause they like have there groups matched up bunch solo q's

Edited March 15, 2016 by Kyuuu

[Yorioko]

That is not the point... solo q should not be matched again group q, this is thing many people like you dont understand or are ingoring, adding to the problem does not fix it just make it more of issue.... and the people dont see that are also generally the people that dont want it to change, cause they like have there groups matched up bunch solo q's

 

 

 

How can a solo know if he refuse to spend the countdown laying the line, that the other side is NOT a premade but used the 30 sec cd to lay down some teamwork.

BAM! a loss....and a cry for premades

 

 

Ther is NOTHING even remotely unfair about Premades. after all grouping up in pvp is how it is done here.

 

You don't go 1 vs4 or 8 hence this is about group wanting to win or do what pvpers demand the rest of plyers to, prep to win, yet once they are in a gropu they stop being social and hide in their social " I'm a pvper that plays MY way" and becomes unable to even communicate in his own team.

 

BUT cry for foul....allways,

 

 

IF player A and B have the same options, and CHOOSE seperate ways, then none are wrong, even if player A thinks B is wrong