Game has died, Nowhere to go

[IanArgent]

Yeah that is the same thing I said right before KoTFE was launched. That BW, for better or worse, is playing a risky bet. To cater to the ultra casuals and hopefully, their numbers are large enough to compensate for the older, more loyal player base (ie: OPs players).

 

They are hoping that the casual crowd is more profitable. I guess this is where the cards are put on the table. All I hear is how casuals are the new playerbase, and screw the OPs people. Well now it is time for you to put your money where your mouth is.

 

Like I said then, it is an interesting gamble, and I am interested in how it turns out. The unfortunate thing, is it has become a us vs them situation. Casuals against OPs and players that want at least a little challenge. But that seems to be the trend in all things nowadays, from politics, to gaming I guess.

 

So if their strategy is correct, the casuals that just want monthly story will be enough numbers to compensate for losing the OPs players, and I guess included with that is a good number of PVP players. If not, they will pay for it and it will show in their monthly incomes (which as much as I know some people like to rant about, we really have no idea).

 

There may be no bet - it's adapt to the more casual and fickle nature of players, or die.

[Cawyden]

Yeah that is the same thing I said right before KoTFE was launched. That BW, for better or worse, is playing a risky bet. To cater to the ultra casuals and hopefully, their numbers are large enough to compensate for the older, more loyal player base (ie: OPs players).

 

They are hoping that the casual crowd is more profitable. I guess this is where the cards are put on the table. All I hear is how casuals are the new playerbase, and screw the OPs people. Well now it is time for you to put your money where your mouth is.

 

Like I said then, it is an interesting gamble, and I am interested in how it turns out. The unfortunate thing, is it has become a us vs them situation. Casuals against OPs and players that want at least a little challenge. But that seems to be the trend in all things nowadays, from politics, to gaming I guess.

 

So if their strategy is correct, the casuals that just want monthly story will be enough numbers to compensate for losing the OPs players, and I guess included with that is a good number of PVP players. If not, they will pay for it and it will show in their monthly incomes (which as much as I know some people like to rant about, we really have no idea).

 

Sorry but why are you thinking that casual players are less loyal than ops players? I am not a founder but I play this game for a long time now as subscriber and continue to do so. I am a casual player but I love the story and have many characters. I don't mind OPs or PVP players, so no us vs them mentality from my side.

 

And considering challenge: there is enough in the game for everyone to find if someone is looking for it. For me it was a challenge to max my space reputation (not GSF the older one). But I wanted it and it worked. Sometimes it is nice just to play to relax and if I am up to a challenge I try to get a missing datacron (I hate it because I am bad at jumping). But this doesn't make me less loyal or worth than OPs or PVP players. Everyone should do what they like and not look down on others if they prefer something else.

[Andryah]

Yeah that is the same thing I said right before KoTFE was launched. That BW, for better or worse, is playing a risky bet. To cater to the ultra casuals and hopefully, their numbers are large enough to compensate for the older, more loyal player base (ie: OPs players).

 

They are hoping that the casual crowd is more profitable. I guess this is where the cards are put on the table. All I hear is how casuals are the new playerbase, and screw the OPs people. Well now it is time for you to put your money where your mouth is.

 

Like I said then, it is an interesting gamble, and I am interested in how it turns out. The unfortunate thing, is it has become a us vs them situation. Casuals against OPs and players that want at least a little challenge. But that seems to be the trend in all things nowadays, from politics, to gaming I guess.

 

So if their strategy is correct, the casuals that just want monthly story will be enough numbers to compensate for losing the OPs players, and I guess included with that is a good number of PVP players. If not, they will pay for it and it will show in their monthly incomes (which as much as I know some people like to rant about, we really have no idea).

 

It's pretty clear in the MMO industry that the player interest is dominated by more casual (less dependency on others) play interests these days. It's why almost all MMOs are doing more content that is less dependent on old MMO paradigms. There are a lot of reasons for the shift in the player base over time, but it is a shift that really does appear to be persistent.

 

So.. more casual, with less dependencies on others, is the trend and Bioware is simply following and adapting to the trend to try to meet it successfully. And by they way.. this shift in trend in the MMO player base is, IMO, why there is no such thing as a "WoW Killer" in the market, and never has been. Even Blizzard could not make a "WoW Killer" in today's market, because it was not a paradigm shift... it was a one-off special event in the industry.

 

Long time MMO veterans... they are a breed apart from the core of the MMO player base these days. And in some ways, some of them show signs of inability to cope with the shift in the market. They want long term fixed content stability with regular refreshes, and using "old" business models. Others have embraced the market shift and have adapted. But if you look at what the studios are doing, they are embracing a more diverse player base and working hard to entice the "casuals" to play their particular MMO... and with that comes the realization that the player base is more fluid, less persistent, and prone to nomadic moves.

 

Wildstar is an excellent "canary" in the coal mine that is the MMO market IMO. They were the last studio to try to ignore the shift in the market and put their emphasis on "old school" group play dependencies. It appears the "canary" is near death. I doubt any studio will ever try that approach again.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Andryah

[IanArgent]

Sorry but why are you thinking that casual players are less loyal than ops players? I am not a founder but I play this game for a long time now as subscriber and continue to do so. I am a casual player but I love the story and have many characters. I don't mind OPs or PVP players, so no us vs them mentality from my side.

 

And considering challenge: there is enough in the game for everyone to find if someone is looking for it. For me it was a challenge to max my space reputation (not GSF the older one). But I wanted it and it worked. Sometimes it is nice just to play to relax and if I am up to a challenge I try to get a missing datacron (I hate it because I am bad at jumping). But this doesn't make me less loyal or worth than OPs or PVP players. Everyone should do what they like and not look down on others if they prefer something else.

 

In this case, I think he means "casual" as "not holding long-term subs," as opposed to "not hardcore raider/PvPers."

 

The "casual" market, when defined by that, is much bigger, and the long-term-sub market is smaller in comparison, and may be absolutely smaller than it used to be.

[Max_Killjoy]

In this case, I think he means "casual" as "not holding long-term subs," as opposed to "not hardcore raider/PvPers."

 

The "casual" market, when defined by that, is much bigger, and the long-term-sub market is smaller in comparison, and may be absolutely smaller than it used to be.

 

 

We need better terminology then -- it's just going to lead to acrimony when a term like that is being used in so many ways, and the word "casual" has for some at times been a "dirty word" as used by the "dedicated raiding" crowd.

[IanArgent]

We need better terminology then -- it's just going to lead to acrimony when a term like that is being used in so many ways, and the word "casual" has for some at times been a "dirty word" as used by the "dedicated raiding" crowd.

 

"short-term," maybe? But the industry term is "casual," or other synonyms with the same kind of negative meanings overlaid when opposed to "hardcore," by the "hardcore."

[DarkJediMage]

Time will tell, but it has been going on with SWTOR since the first expac released. Surge, ebb, surge, ebb. As long as they keep releasing new expacs on their regular cycle, I don't see them failing.

 

Just like in nature, the ebb and flow of the tide keeps the tide-pool fresh and alive, though the actual sea life specimens may change over time.

 

The big stink in the forums over 4.0 tends to center around it encouraging more solo play and therefore less group play. For an MMO player who is mostly interested in group based content, the current expac is less fulfilling for them. On the other hand, 4.0 is a solo players dream in many ways. An MMO these days needs a diverse player base and therefore offers a lot of different types of content. In the case of Bioware, and their game history, people tend to expect more solo/small-group story arc based play, whereas with other MMOs they have other stronger expectations (competitive PvP, OW PvP, Raids and more Raids, etc.). Of course some players just get bent over it and demand the studio give them exactly what they want and lots of it.. and to hell with the rest of the player base.

 

As an old school MMO player, I have come to accept the more nomadic nature of MMO populations in the modern era. We all have to adapt with the changing dynamics of the wider player base that plays MMOs. I have simply learned to diversify my play across multiple MMOs at the same time rather then beat up the devs of any particular MMO because they re not releasing my preferred content.

 

I think the shift in players being more nomadic has been hardest on guilds to be honest, because they are most dependent on stable populations of players.

in april, i will start my nomadic migration to the game that suites me the best. i will still be a preferred player on here due to my grandnephews/nieces like to see my toons on their visits. it is a shame that game has been reduced to a casual cupcake even kiiddie-like game. but it is done.

 

as for beating up on the devs, silence is more destructive than voicing out. silence is like giving up and saying go to hell to the devs and let them hang themselves. silent customers have a higher chance of damaging a reputation or trend than regular ones. the silent ones vent on their friends and other forums on the bad experiences.

 

as for guilds, i get several guild whisper a day. they are really hurting.

[DarthDymond]

Yeah that is the same thing I said right before KoTFE was launched. That BW, for better or worse, is playing a risky bet. To cater to the ultra casuals and hopefully, their numbers are large enough to compensate for the older, more loyal player base (ie: OPs players).

 

They are hoping that the casual crowd is more profitable. I guess this is where the cards are put on the table. All I hear is how casuals are the new playerbase, and screw the OPs people. Well now it is time for you to put your money where your mouth is.

 

Like I said then, it is an interesting gamble, and I am interested in how it turns out. The unfortunate thing, is it has become a us vs them situation. Casuals against OPs and players that want at least a little challenge. But that seems to be the trend in all things nowadays, from politics, to gaming I guess.

 

So if their strategy is correct, the casuals that just want monthly story will be enough numbers to compensate for losing the OPs players, and I guess included with that is a good number of PVP players. If not, they will pay for it and it will show in their monthly incomes (which as much as I know some people like to rant about, we really have no idea).

Well, to the 'us vs them' point, who exactly are we describing as "Ops players" and as "casuals" here? Because for many players that may not be such a coherent divide.

 

Are OPs Players those players who near-exclusively play Ops? Those who frequently play NiM/HM Ops? Those who consider Ops a 'must-have' feature and will leave if they don't get a new one every [X] months? Those who run an Op or two each week?

 

I consider myself a story-focused player, and I love KotFE, but I have played every Op in SM, most of them many times, and have run HMs as well in the past. When I had more time to play, I would complete the PVP Weekly every week and I played Ranked for a couple Seasons, but I absolutely do not think of myself as a PVPer.

 

My experience is that many, if not most, MMO players dabble - we raid a bit, we PVP a bit, we level alts a bit, GSF, decorate Strongholds, collect achievements, etc, etc, etc.

 

It's not that the average story fan hates Ops and all group content (there are some die-hard solo-only players to be sure, but I don't see that fringe as a huge factor in the game's demographic), it's that for some of us the lack of Ops isn't a deal-breaker when it comes to subscribing.

 

So what is a "casual" in this 'us vs them' dynamic? Anyone who isn't all about a single aspect of the game like Ops or PVP?

Edited March 31, 2016 by DarthDymond

[Max_Killjoy]

Well, to the 'us vs them' point, who exactly are we describing as "Ops players" and as "casuals" here? Because for many players that may not be such a coherent divide.

 

Are OPs Players those players who near-exclusively play Ops? Those who frequently play NiM/HM Ops? Those who consider Ops a 'must-have' feature and will leave if they don't get a new one every [X] months? Those who run an Op or two each week?

 

I consider myself a story-focused player, and I love KotFE, but I have played every Op in SM, most of them many times, and have run HMs as well in the past. When I had more time to play, I would complete the PVP Weekly every week and I played Ranked for a couple Seasons, but I absolutely do not think of myself as a PVPer.

 

My experience is that many, if not most, MMO players dabble - we raid a bit, we PVP a bit, we level alts a bit, GSF, decorate Strongholds, collect achievements, etc, etc, etc.

 

It's not that the average story fan hates Ops and all group content (there are some die-hard solo-only players to be sure, but I don't see that fringe as a huge factor in the game's demographic), it's that for some of us the lack of Ops isn't a deal-breaker when it comes to subscribing.

 

So what is a "casual" in this 'us vs them' dynamic? Anyone who isn't all about a single aspect of the game like Ops or PVP?

 

It doesn't matter what's really happening, the "leet" players will always need a "rest of the players" to look down their noses and sneer at. Because the game isn't centered on pushing people into the endgame hamster-wheel gear-grind, it must obviously now be a kiddie-game, on par with Angry Birds or whatever...

[DarkJediMage]

Time will tell, but it has been going on with SWTOR since the first expac released. Surge, ebb, surge, ebb. As long as they keep releasing new expacs on their regular cycle, I don't see them failing.

 

Just like in nature, the ebb and flow of the tide keeps the tide-pool fresh and alive, though the actual sea life specimens may change over time.

 

The big stink in the forums over 4.0 tends to center around it encouraging more solo play and therefore less group play. For an MMO player who is mostly interested in group based content, the current expac is less fulfilling for them. On the other hand, 4.0 is a solo players dream in many ways. An MMO these days needs a diverse player base and therefore offers a lot of different types of content. In the case of Bioware, and their game history, people tend to expect more solo/small-group story arc based play, whereas with other MMOs they have other stronger expectations (competitive PvP, OW PvP, Raids and more Raids, etc.). Of course some players just get bent over it and demand the studio give them exactly what they want and lots of it.. and to hell with the rest of the player base.

 

As an old school MMO player, I have come to accept the more nomadic nature of MMO populations in the modern era. We all have to adapt with the changing dynamics of the wider player base that plays MMOs. I have simply learned to diversify my play across multiple MMOs at the same time rather then beat up the devs of any particular MMO because they re not releasing my preferred content.

 

I think the shift in players being more nomadic has been hardest on guilds to be honest, because they are most dependent on stable populations of players.

in april, i will start my nomadic migration to the game that suites me the best. i will still be a preferred player on here due to my grandnephews/nieces like to see my toons on their visits. it is a shame that game has been reduced to a casual cupcake even kiiddie-like game. but it is done.

 

as for beating up on the devs, silence is more destructive than voicing out. silence is like giving up and saying go to hell to the devs and let them hang themselves. silent customers have a higher chance of damaging a reputation or trend than regular ones. the silent ones vent on their friends and other forums on the bad experiences.

 

as for guilds, i get several guild whisper a day. they are really hurting.

[IanArgent]

It doesn't matter what's really happening, the "leet" players will always need a "rest of the players" to look down their noses and sneer at. Because the game isn't centered on pushing people into the endgame hamster-wheel gear-grind, it must obviously now be a kiddie-game, on par with Angry Birds or whatever...

 

in april, i will start my nomadic migration to the game that suites me the best. i will still be a preferred player on here due to my grandnephews/nieces like to see my toons on their visits. it is a shame that game has been reduced to a casual cupcake even kiiddie-like game. but it is done.

 

Pitch-perfect, DarkJediMage. Full marks.

[MadCuzBad]

We need better terminology then -- it's just going to lead to acrimony when a term like that is being used in so many ways, and the word "casual" has for some at times been a "dirty word" as used by the "dedicated raiding" crowd.

 

How about this. The game as a whole is in trouble.

 

Now use any terminology you want. Say it any way you want. It will still come back to the fact the game is heading in downward position, one that at this point in the game cycle will not be able to pull out of minus a mega server or instituting server to server ques.

[Max_Killjoy]

How about this. The game as a whole is in trouble.

 

Now use any terminology you want. Say it any way you want. It will still come back to the fact the game is heading in downward position, one that at this point in the game cycle will not be able to pull out of minus a mega server or instituting server to server ques.

 

I'm very sorry about your PvP queue times. Really.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Max_Killjoy

[MadCuzBad]

I'm very sorry about your PvP queue times. Really.

 

Get off it buddy boy

[MeNaCe-NZ]

How about this. The game as a whole is in trouble.

 

Now use any terminology you want. Say it any way you want. It will still come back to the fact the game is heading in downward position, one that at this point in the game cycle will not be able to pull out of minus a mega server or instituting server to server ques.

 

Whilst I agree it's in trouble ( and it's nice to see you not making those silly PVP claims - an admission of error we could take this as ) and is indeed heading in a downward position your idea of what may save it is flawed.

 

Mega servers won't save it, they don't do anything to address dwindling player numbers.

 

It however can easily be saved, a simple announcement of an expansion in December that is story + operations + flashpoints and some lures in to get people subbing now would easily turn around the game as it has done almost every year.

 

This is traditionally the darkest time in the game player wise and was worse last year I thought before KoTFE was announced ... the big question on many people's mind though is ... what is next ... if anything?

[Max_Killjoy]

Get off it buddy boy

 

Dudebro... I thought you were going to put me on ignore for "trolling".

[MadCuzBad]

Dudebro... I thought you were going to put me on ignore for "trolling".

 

I have never ignored anyone on the forums. And there has only been like 3 people I have ignored in game. And all 3 of them were to test if ignore works for pvp ques.

 

So technically I have never ignored anyone for trolling. And you son certainly wont be the first, lol. Not even close.

 

What in the world of your delusions made you think I was going to or did ignore you? Your dreams? ROFLMAO!!! Nice!!

 

At this point I am going to remove you from the denial crowd and add you to the delusional crowd. I had you wrong. Sorry about that. My bad.

[TUXs]

Whilst I agree it's in trouble ( and it's nice to see you not making those silly PVP claims - an admission of error we could take this as ) and is indeed heading in a downward position your idea of what may save it is flawed.

 

Mega servers won't save it, they don't do anything to address dwindling player numbers.

Agreed!!! It's a bandaid, not a "fix". Cross server, or even Megaserver, does nothing to stop the leak.

 

It however can easily be saved, a simple announcement of an expansion in December that is story + operations + flashpoints and some lures in to get people subbing now would easily turn around the game as it has done almost every year.

I think you're right. I think that's what people NEED to hear...they need something new to look forward to.

 

This is traditionally the darkest time in the game player wise and was worse last year I thought before KoTFE was announced ... the big question on many people's mind though is ... what is next ... if anything?

Not at all. Last year Harb had at least twice as many people. I obviously don't have the exact numbers, but 4 Pub fleets my 1st night checking it out (a year ago)...Tuesday on Hard we had 2, 1 instance of Pub Fleet with 145, the other with 5 (7:30pm CST, my "normal" play time). Population is FAR worse right now imo.

[TUXs]

Mad...Max...please don't do that again today. I respect both of you...please don't start name calling or trying to insult the other.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Not at all. Last year Harb had at least twice as many people. I obviously don't have the exact numbers, but 4 Pub fleets my 1st night checking it out (a year ago)...Tuesday on Hard we had 2, 1 instance of Pub Fleet with 145, the other with 5 (7:30pm CST, my "normal" play time). Population is FAR worse right now imo.

 

I guess I only have my experience to speak from because around this time last year it was nigh impossible for me to get any pug to raid to the point I gave up heading to fleet and retired permanently to my SH for my GTN activities which was all I was going since I couldn't get pugs.

 

Granted this is APAC timezone but compared to now I havel ittle issue of finding a group anytime of the week.

 

Now this isn't necessarily indicative of population and it might indeed be less people are playing but more are doing pugs due to the variety of operations available at max level now but again ... I only have personal experience to speak from and Harb in APAC time just feels more populated now for the above reasons.

 

I guess in this something like torstatus is useless because if both periods state "light" then we have nothing to compare against and the server caps were apparently raised around KoTFE too.

[TUXs]

I guess I only have my experience to speak from because around this time last year it was nigh impossible for me to get any pug to raid to the point I gave up heading to fleet and retired permanently to my SH for my GTN activities which was all I was going since I couldn't get pugs.

 

Granted this is APAC timezone but compared to now I havel ittle issue of finding a group anytime of the week.

 

Now this isn't necessarily indicative of population and it might indeed be less people are playing but more are doing pugs due to the variety of operations available at max level now but again ... I only have personal experience to speak from and Harb in APAC time just feels more populated now for the above reasons.

 

I guess in this something like torstatus is useless because if both periods state "light" then we have nothing to compare against and the server caps were apparently raised around KoTFE too.

I hope you're right...I would LOVE to be wrong about this...

[Darth_Exar]

Oh my stars could it be the start of the second apocalypse!? All joking aside though, it does need addressing at some point, in the future at least, because its the symptoms yet again of the same cycle after the fiasco of early 2012, but this time I doubt it can be saved by mergers and switching to....well....dunno what the cashing system can revert to after f2p....ultra f2p?

[MadCuzBad]

Now this isn't necessarily indicative of population and it might indeed be less people are playing but more are doing pugs due to the variety of operations available at max level now but again ... I only have personal experience to speak from and Harb in APAC time just feels more populated now for the above reasons.

 

I guess in this something like torstatus is useless because if both periods state "light" then we have nothing to compare against and the server caps were apparently raised around KoTFE too.

 

Well actually this time last year was at least double of what it is now. I wrote down the planet instances, pvp instances, and ops instances. I have a pad next to me that I have been scribbling on with stuff like that for years.

 

Fleet is still a viable way of measuring as a general rule of thumb. When we had 4 instances of republic fleet, we also has approx. same expansion on instances. Now that we are down to 1 instance of republic fleet on harbs, you can see the approx same results on all other instaces besides fleet. They generaly run hand and hand at least in the past year they have.

 

To debate over the servers being less populated is not worth the time to debate. I think any reasonably thinking person knows that the servers are lighter. Are they dead? No Harbringer is not dead, and there are a few other servers worth playing on during peak times. But as a whole the servers have deflated.

 

The problem isn't the fact that we have a server that still runs a decent population, the problem is that we are down to only a few server worth playing that are deflating weekly. And now for the first time in this games history there is no where to run to for refuge. That is the core of the issue.

 

These servers are going down, not up. If these servers patters we on an upscale I would not be having this discussion. Heck I wouldn't even be on the forums at all TBH. I am sounding the alarm that the house is on fire. I just hope the alarm is heard.

[Max_Killjoy]

I have never ignored anyone on the forums. And there has only been like 3 people I have ignored in game. And all 3 of them were to test if ignore works for pvp ques.

 

So technically I have never ignored anyone for trolling. And you son certainly wont be the first, lol. Not even close.

 

What in the world of your delusions made you think I was going to or did ignore you? Your dreams? ROFLMAO!!! Nice!!

 

At this point I am going to remove you from the denial crowd and add you to the delusional crowd. I had you wrong. Sorry about that. My bad.

 

I've torn Bioware a new one more than once over changes to the game, bugs they took months or more to fix, etc... but I've never said that changes I hate are going to kill the game -- other people have different tastes and priorities, and I don't presume to predict how they'll all react.

 

I hate what's happened with KotFE, but I'm not self-absorbed enough claim that SWTOR is dead because I'm not getting exactly what I want out of it.

 

Learn to tell the difference between not getting what you want from the game... and the game being "dead".

 

Does it suck that your queue times are longer than you'd like? Yes, absolutely (as long as you're not expecting insta-pops 24/7 including holidays).

 

Does that mean that SWTOR is "dying"? No.

Does that mean no one else if having fun with the game? No.

Does that mean that every server without "fast enough" queue-pops is "dead" or "hopeless? No.

Does that mean that Harbinger is Prince Leia's only hope? No.

 

Calling anyone and everyone who won't jump on the same rage-train you've been on -- for what, 3-4 years now? -- "in denial" or "delusional" is never going to make you more right or wrong, it just makes you come across as a self-absorbed self-righteous tool.

 

The server I play on is still worth playing on for me and the rest of the players who log in every day. The content I enjoy doing is still worth doing, for me and all the other people who I see doing it every day. No matter how often you repeat yourself, your issues with the game don't negate other people's enjoyment of the game.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Max_Killjoy

[MadCuzBad]

Does that mean that SWTOR is "dying"? No.

 

Actually I disagree. I honestly think the game is dying. If you disagree with me, then I guess we can agree to disagree.

 

I also believe the game has "died" as a game. The reason why I say this is that it is puttering around with a host of dead servers. There is no indication that there is going to be a major overhaul to fix the serious problems it is suffering from. So from that respect I believe the game has already died. I think it is on life support right now and the problem that has it on life support is going from bad to worse.

 

I understand people disagree with me. I know that there are some that will never accept what I just said. I am perfectly fine with that. We can agree to disagree. But at the end of the day that is exactly what I believe to be true. I make no apology for saying that. I enjoy this game and don't want to see it go. But it has been slipping away for a while now and I think the day of reckoning is coming soon. The reality that we have reached the end of the rope can no longer be ignored.

 

I used to be able to run to a different server and try to pretend everything is fine. Looking back at dead servers and saying to myself "well it doesn't effect me anymore, I'm on a busy server now" is an option that no longer exists Whether I like it or it bothers me to say that or whether it is upsetting to hear that really makes no difference. The fact is there is nowhere to run when Harbringer fizzles away. And that's that, like it or not..