Suggestions for starfighter ballance

[Okaww]

Playing around with starfighter, it is clear is it completely out of balance.

 

For starting, NEW PILOTS NEED BIGGER BONUS/incentive.

 

When I first started, I was lucky to get 200 ship points. the starting fighters are too weak to make a difference, so yo spend many battles dying until you can finally get an upgrade, which still amounts to little. Too many people play their first round and get so discouraged, they don't play anymore because it's not worth the time or effort since most everyone else is high tiered and upgraded.

 

GUNSHIPS are Overpowered:

Gunship are an annoyance, and I see people dropping out of battle when facing multiple gunships. They sit within range of one another, and it's near impossible to successfully kill them because they blast you apart long before you get in range, and no ships can do enough close range damage to them to really bother them.

 

Here is the problem with gunships.

1) They have high armor.

2) Their rail-guns have too much range.

3) Their rail-guns (especially ION) can spam too quickly with high results, and shoot through satalites and many other obstacles.

4) they have too much BOOST speed and maneuverability.

5) Gunships are campers, and their drones aren't needed to aid them in their annoyance.

 

Some balances:

1) I can deal with them having armor, but other measures muct be taken.

 

2) A single railgun can destroy a satalites defences in their sleep. When defending pilots try to intercept, they are blown away before they can get within 7~8k.

 

3) Rail-guns can fire too often for their damage ratio.

>They should be forced to charge max before firing.

>They need a weapon cool-down after firing (10 seconds, with upgrade reduceing to at most 6 sec)

>If not charged and they release the button, they lose their energy and go into cool-down.

>Whatever bug is out there, they need to stop being able to hit anything they don't have proper LOS on, like with missals and lasers

 

4)They need a smaller engine boost pool, and move slower, with slower maneuver. Those lunkers shouldn't be able to out-maneuver scouts like they do, and lock-ons.

 

5) Gunships are usually so far out of battle, giving them drones of any kind is overkill.

 

Bombers.

Bombers are probably the most balanced class, except for one bug I see.

 

I've come across enemy gunships who are oblivious to me. lay 4 mine around them, within 1k, and don't go off. When the gunship finally realizes the bombs, they just do a quick boost, and my mines still sit there. Bombs need to detect sitting targets better, and possibly have a quicker arm time.

 

Bombers could use some better upgrades/component options, however.

 

Strike Fighters/Scouts:

These guys aren't too bad, for what they are. SFs are probably a bit under powered and slow and scouts should have an inate evade increase against slow weapons like mines, rail-guns, and defense turrets, especially at longer ranges..

[Greezt]

Let's tackle this bit by bit.

 

For starting, NEW PILOTS NEED BIGGER BONUS/incentive.

 

When I first started, I was lucky to get 200 ship points. the starting fighters are too weak to make a difference, so yo spend many battles dying until you can finally get an upgrade, which still amounts to little. Too many people play their first round and get so discouraged, they don't play anymore because it's not worth the time or effort since most everyone else is high tiered and upgraded.

 

Not a bad idea to give more incentive.

GUNSHIPS are Overpowered:

Gunship are an annoyance, and I see people dropping out of battle when facing multiple gunships. They sit within range of one another, and it's near impossible to successfully kill them because they blast you apart long before you get in range, and no ships can do enough close range damage to them to really bother them.

 

Here is the problem with gunships.

1) They have high armor.

2) Their rail-guns have too much range.

3) Their rail-guns (especially ION) can spam too quickly with high results, and shoot through satalites and many other obstacles.

4) they have too much BOOST speed and maneuverability.

5) Gunships are campers, and their drones aren't needed to aid them in their annoyance.

 

Some balances:

1) I can deal with them having armor, but other measures muct be taken.

 

2) A single railgun can destroy a satalites defences in their sleep. When defending pilots try to intercept, they are blown away before they can get within 7~8k.

 

3) Rail-guns can fire too often for their damage ratio.

>They should be forced to charge max before firing.

>They need a weapon cool-down after firing (10 seconds, with upgrade reduceing to at most 6 sec)

>If not charged and they release the button, they lose their energy and go into cool-down.

>Whatever bug is out there, they need to stop being able to hit anything they don't have proper LOS on, like with missals and lasers

 

4)They need a smaller engine boost pool, and move slower, with slower maneuver. Those lunkers shouldn't be able to out-maneuver scouts like they do, and lock-ons.

 

5) Gunships are usually so far out of battle, giving them drones of any kind is overkill.

 

Man, has this been discussed... Short answer: gunships are ok.

Longer answer: read this. It has the basics of how to fight and kill gunships. They are already quite slow compared to scouts, and a good scout can certainly outmaneuver a gunship.

 

They certainly don't have much armor. In fact, only one gunship (the T1) even has an armor component, while all scouts have it. Their base shields are lower than all but scouts', and so is their base hull.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "their drones". Please explain.

 

Bombers.

Bombers are probably the most balanced class, except for one bug I see.

 

I've come across enemy gunships who are oblivious to me. lay 4 mine around them, within 1k, and don't go off. When the gunship finally realizes the bombs, they just do a quick boost, and my mines still sit there. Bombs need to detect sitting targets better, and possibly have a quicker arm time.

 

Bombers could use some better upgrades/component options, however.

Bombers are pretty well balanced, and as for the "bug" you've seen: mines have a 3-second arming time. If you lay a mine one a gunship and it escapes the detonation radius during those 3 seconds, it won't explode.

 

Bombers have some great choices, and are an important part of a good team. If you haven't already, read the guide stickied on the top of these forums.

 

Strike Fighters/Scouts:

These guys aren't too bad, for what they are. SFs are probably a bit under powered and slow and scouts should have an inate evade increase against slow weapons like mines, rail-guns, and defense turrets, especially at longer ranges..

 

Strikes are not balanced very well in GSF, that's true. They are not competitive (even if they're fun). Scouts are good, but many would say that the T2 is a bit overpowered. it's up for debate, but the bottom line is that it doesn't matter. The devs haven't been to these forums in such a long time...

Edited February 15, 2016 by Greezt

[SWCNT]

This post will surely give Despon something to do after work haha. This subject has been discussed ad nauseam, see Despon's guide to killing GS here

[WiseStranger]

Playing around with starfighter, it is clear is it completely out of balance.

 

For starting, NEW PILOTS NEED BIGGER BONUS/incentive.

 

When I first started, I was lucky to get 200 ship points. the starting fighters are too weak to make a difference, so yo spend many battles dying until you can finally get an upgrade, which still amounts to little. Too many people play their first round and get so discouraged, they don't play anymore because it's not worth the time or effort since most everyone else is high tiered and upgraded.

 

GUNSHIPS are Overpowered:

Gunship are an annoyance, and I see people dropping out of battle when facing multiple gunships. They sit within range of one another, and it's near impossible to successfully kill them because they blast you apart long before you get in range, and no ships can do enough close range damage to them to really bother them.

 

Here is the problem with gunships.

1) They have high armor.

2) Their rail-guns have too much range.

3) Their rail-guns (especially ION) can spam too quickly with high results, and shoot through satalites and many other obstacles.

4) they have too much BOOST speed and maneuverability.

5) Gunships are campers, and their drones aren't needed to aid them in their annoyance.

 

Some balances:

1) I can deal with them having armor, but other measures muct be taken.

 

2) A single railgun can destroy a satalites defences in their sleep. When defending pilots try to intercept, they are blown away before they can get within 7~8k.

 

3) Rail-guns can fire too often for their damage ratio.

>They should be forced to charge max before firing.

>They need a weapon cool-down after firing (10 seconds, with upgrade reduceing to at most 6 sec)

>If not charged and they release the button, they lose their energy and go into cool-down.

>Whatever bug is out there, they need to stop being able to hit anything they don't have proper LOS on, like with missals and lasers

 

4)They need a smaller engine boost pool, and move slower, with slower maneuver. Those lunkers shouldn't be able to out-maneuver scouts like they do, and lock-ons.

 

5) Gunships are usually so far out of battle, giving them drones of any kind is overkill.

 

Bombers.

Bombers are probably the most balanced class, except for one bug I see.

 

I've come across enemy gunships who are oblivious to me. lay 4 mine around them, within 1k, and don't go off. When the gunship finally realizes the bombs, they just do a quick boost, and my mines still sit there. Bombs need to detect sitting targets better, and possibly have a quicker arm time.

 

Bombers could use some better upgrades/component options, however.

 

Strike Fighters/Scouts:

These guys aren't too bad, for what they are. SFs are probably a bit under powered and slow and scouts should have an inate evade increase against slow weapons like mines, rail-guns, and defense turrets, especially at longer ranges..

 

There are quite a few things wrong with that wall of garbage you posted:

For the likes of you there is this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=867801

 

But allow me to make some corrections:

 

We all started the same way. 2-3 starter ships that needed upgrades. Smart people looked at the components and upgrades or read guides written by other people and were spending requisition properly or correct crew, ships, components and upgrades. The information about different ships classes is also available. If YOU decided not to use the information - it's YOUR problem.

 

Gunships are fairly balanced, they are long rage specialists that must stay stationary to use their main weapons (railguns) to deal damage. What you really describing in that wall of crying is team of experienced players in upgraded ships vs team of noobs that have no clue and can get stomped by experienced players no matter the ship they picked (just lift your behind and google some ace in a stock ship videos).

 

1.1

Gunship frame starts with 5% damage reduction, same as strikes. Bombers start with 10% which is the highest. If a gunship is particularly stupid they can equip 9% more from crew and 20% more if they have armoring slot. Wow you have 14% or 34% damage reduction that is useless against any weapon with armor penetration. I'm sure such gunship is a huge threat (mainly to itself).

 

Gunships have 400 more than scouts, 200 more than bombers and 100 less than strikes in terms of base shield power.

Gunships have 300 more than scouts, 200 less than strikes and 750 less than bombers in terms of base hull capacity.

I see nothing overpowered here.

 

1.2

Railguns have reasonable range of 15 km as they require a gunship to remain stationary (aside from slow strafing) and do not allow simultaneous use of any other weapons available to such gunship. They require 2.7-3.0 seconds of charging while you have to keep your target relatively centered due to 5% per degree tracking penalty (let us know if you don't know how tracking penalty works). Gunships are heavily penalized for holding railgun charged due to continuous energy drain. Efficient Fire does not apply to railguns. They impose 25% minimal charge requirement. The damage and ion energy drain scale with the charge.

 

1.3

Ion railguns can not shoot through satellites. The T4 upgrade gives AOE effect centered on the main target where only 3 additional targets (not all what's out there) receive HALF DAMAGE delivered to main target and up to 10 weapon/engine drain scaling with the charge. Considering 25% minimal charge requirement and 1 second reuse time, the only thing you threaten with AoE are bomber mines/drones/beacons. T5 debuffs do not extend to targets damaged by ion AoE.

 

1.4

Gunships are second worst after bombers in terms of speed and turning rates. ALL SHIPS have exactly the same base engine power pool of 100. Only scouts have lower booster activation cost of 4 and consumption rate of 10. ALL OTHER SHIPS have it at 5 and 12 respectively.

 

1.5

Drones? What drones? Do you even play GSF? Here is a link to GSF calculator, go get yourself busy getting some understanding about what ships have and don't have.

 

2.1

Considering that gunships got no armor, there is nothing to deal with.

 

2.2

A single railgun can't do anything against a properly defended satellite. Other allies must be attacking the satellite in order to take it and deal with defenders that are not in LOS of the gunship.

For Ion AoE you need a target in line of sight and it's still limited to 3 targets including mines/drones/turrets/beacons.

Mentally challenged pilots who think that flying in a straight line at a gunship that is facing them deserve to be blown up. It's like getting mad at scouts that kill your bomber while you just sit there and tank the damage without even a slightest attempt to move. Try flanking that gunship, or bring your own gunship to do the same thing. It's called tactical depth and teamwork.

 

2.3

Railguns can fire at the shortest every 1.575 seconds dealing:

400 damage for slug railgun

463 SHIELD damage for ion railgun

116 Hull damage for ion railgun

 

Since damage scales with charge, there is no need to force 100% charge. Railguns already have 25% charge requirement to prevent debuff spamming. And gunships already lose the charge when fire at less than 25% charge or cancel the shot as well as when holding a fully charged weapon trying to aim.

 

If you impose 100% charge requirement and 6-10 second reuse time you might as well make railguns function like sniper rifles. No charge, point and fire. But whiny noobs (like you are) will cry even more after that since gunships will become very mobile and will be able to deal substantial damage even when chased. Or you might as well remove railguns at all. The gunship pilots will switch to their scouts and shoot you full of holes, or bombers and blow you up on the nodes.

 

There are no LOS bugs. There are AoE effects that were designed to ignore LoS: EMP field, EMP missile, Ion Railgun AoE from T4 uprade, Buffs/debuffs from deployed drones/probes , systems and copilot abilities.

 

2.4

Gunships are already very slow with speed and turning. The only ships class that has it worse is bombers.

 

2.5

Gunships do not have any ability that allows them personally drop mines and drones. There is however an ability available to all GSF players. It's called teamwork. It allows one to request friendly bombers to set up a nest in which a gunship can park and do their bloody business.

 

But considering that you're a bomber pilot (just by looking at your post) it's not surprising that you want a ship class that can deal with you from range to be nerfed. After all, that will allow fun domination games where people bring 8 bombers vs 8 bombers (with tensor-suicide at the start).

 

Sounds to me that the issue here is between the chair you're sitting on and the computer input devices you're using. I'm afraid only autopsy will be able to give more accurate location of the problem.

 

As an interim solution, try flying those OVERPOWERED gunships. I heard pub side of harbinger is good around 6-9 P.M. PST. It helps disillusion the likes of you. Don't forget to let people know your character name so they can give you a demonstration on how little damage a focused gunship can do.

[DomiSotto]

Honestly, there is a fairly generous starting grant of 5K comms. While folks were adamant that you should purchase as many ships with it as possible, tbh, I have never regretted putting some of it towards setting up the first ship with proper components. GSF is rather generous with the rewards vs time invested compared to all other pursuits. The XP gains are so obscene you can't mention it in a polite society. Ships grants are huge with dailies/weeklies.

 

As for stopping to queue because you have a non-augmented ship, I got shot out of the sky on the stock ship, I continue to be shot out of the sky with Blackbolt at the 2nd or 3rd upgrade level unlocked. It's always the same thing in all forms of PvP. If you are good at it, you'll find a quick success and you will make do.

 

If you are just an average player, you will slightly improve your performance by gearing, grinding and learning, but not significantly enough to ever be competitive with the actually good players. So, if you are not having fun in a stock, acknowledging & accepting your shortcomings, you will also be disappointed in a fully mastered, because, well, ain't all in the gear that makes others better.

Edited February 15, 2016 by DomiSotto

[Greezt]

*snip*

 

Good going. You sure are good at making new players want to stay. Your superior knowledge of GSF mechanics (compared to a self declared newbie) must make your parents proud.

 

Oh well, maybe someone else understands why you find acting like a complete douche fun.

 

Actually, I wonder why you even took the time to post such a wall of derogatory.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Greezt

[WiseStranger]

Good going. You sure are good at making new players want to stay. Your superiour knowledge of GSF mechanics (compared to a self declared newbie) must make your parents proud.

 

Oh well, maybe someone else understands why you find acting like a complete douche fun.

 

Actually, I wonder why you even took the time to post such a wall of derogatory.

 

I don't care about making anyone proud. I also don't care if a new player (who's first choice was to come to the forums and complain about evil gunships touching his bomber) stays. But I thought I shouldn't limit myself to just telling him he's a noob that needs to learn how to play. I wanted to give him/her an explanation in a language and tone he/she can understand.

 

Those who want to stay will stay regardless. They will try to improve despite the hard time mastering ships. They will acknowledge that the problem is with how they play, their lack of skill/gear/knowledge/etc. They will ask for advice. They will get into groups. At some point they will become significantly better and will become names that are recognized. That's how all veterans got to where they are. Most veterans leveled GSF toons from scratch multiple times.

 

And I took the time to write that response because I was bored while riding a train home.

Edited February 16, 2016 by WiseStranger
typos

[Danalon]

Honestly, there is a fairly generous starting grant of 5K comms. While folks were adamant that you should purchase as many ships with it as possible, tbh, I have never regretted putting some of it towards setting up the first ship with proper components.

 

Don't ever use fleet req for upgrading ships, except you have already bought all important things you need fleet req for.

 

As a new player the two or three components/upgrades you can get with 5k req will not make much difference, because the main reason you're worse than others isn't the lack of upgrades but the lack of experience.

5k fleet req are a lot of games to be played. With 150ish fleet req per game you'll need 30+ games to get that much fleet requistion - if you're doing the weekly, you'll get 1k per week so let's be generous and say you can make those 5k within two weeks.

To get 5k ship req you need maybe 5 games played - but you get 1k ship req per ship you own for every daily token, which means with 4 ships on your bar it would need only 1 day to get 5k ship req total (1k for the game and 4*1k for the token).

 

Fleet req is so much more valuable than ship req, you should never ever spend it on upgrades for ships on a new character. That's not just a tip for beginners - most, if not all, veterans spend fleet req on new ships or crew members on a new character.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Danalon

[DomiSotto]

I do not disagree, and I I know all the good things that come from the faster ship acquisition. And I still do not regret it.

 

It made me feel better knowing that at least something I have is correct right now, than having more ships that I can't fly. It works just the same if you simply want to check it out for just a few games, or in it for a long haul.

 

If you keep playing, you'll get stuff. That's how this game always works, save for the high-end, high-reward venues, like ranked and NiMs.

 

I felt better knowing that I will wait longer for the other stuff than flying something that looks absolutely nothing like the recommended build. There is so much information, and all the learned discussions about stuff, that honestly, too long-term plans are hard to make.

Edited February 16, 2016 by DomiSotto

[RickDagles]

Honestly, there is a fairly generous starting grant of 5K comms. While folks were adamant that you should purchase as many ships with it as possible, tbh, I have never regretted putting some of it towards setting up the first ship with proper components. GSF is rather generous with the rewards vs time invested compared to all other pursuits. The XP gains are so obscene you can't mention it in a polite society. Ships grants are huge with dailies/weeklies.

 

As for stopping to queue because you have a non-augmented ship, I got shot out of the sky on the stock ship, I continue to be shot out of the sky with Blackbolt at the 2nd or 3rd upgrade level unlocked. It's always the same thing in all forms of PvP. If you are good at it, you'll find a quick success and you will make do.

 

If you are just an average player, you will slightly improve your performance by gearing, grinding and learning, but not significantly enough to ever be competitive with the actually good players. So, if you are not having fun in a stock, acknowledging & accepting your shortcomings, you will also be disappointed in a fully mastered, because, well, ain't all in the gear that makes others better.

 

 

I think it's totally ok advice to suggest using the 5k to get either the Flashfire/Sting or Warcarrier/Legion.

 

Focusing on getting the daily and 2x bonus on one ship is easy to do and will result in getting that ship to a decent place fairly quickly. Also, these ships are strong in both game modes (whereas the Rampart/Razorwire is only good in domination).

 

New players can probably make the biggest difference for their team by flying a Warcarrier/Legion. It's an easy ship to be effective with right out of the gate.

Edited February 16, 2016 by RickDagles

[ALaggyGrunt]

I think he just made the case for why the game isn't very newbie friendly.

[Lendul]

I don't care about making anyone proud. I also don't care if a new player (who's first choice was to come to the forums and complain about evil gunships touching his bomber) stays. But I thought I shouldn't limit myself to just telling him he's a noob that needs to learn how to play. I wanted to give him/her an explanation in a language and tone he/she can understand.

 

Those who want to stay will stay regardless. They will try to improve despite the hard time mastering ships. They will acknowledge that the problem is with how they play, their lack of skill/gear/knowledge/etc. They will ask for advice. They will get into groups. At some point they will become significantly better and will become names that are recognized. That's how all veterans got to where they are. Most veterans leveled GSF toons from scratch multiple times.

 

And I took the time to write that response because I was bored while riding a train home.

Do you care if when you queue up there is a pop in a reasonable amount of time? If the answer is yes then caring about the text in red should be a high priority.

[Lavaar]

Do you care if when you queue up there is a pop in a reasonable amount of time? If the answer is yes then caring about the text in red should be a high priority.

 

I see this sentiment a lot. Where are you all getting the data backing up this conclusion that a whole whack of you seem to be incredibly confident about? Have you talked to (level headed) new players trying to learn? Or is it just an echo chamber of people who want to feel better about themselves by convincing themselves they are doing the right thing?

 

From what I have seen, the servers who baby their new players (not three capping, "going easy" etc.) are stagnating and their ques are slowly dying while the old boys clubs use the servers as personal playgrounds. Alternatively, the ones where there is ample competition are producing players with fire in their hearts. These servers have new aces popping up regularly and faster pops than I have seen in a long time.

[WiseStranger]

I don't care about making anyone proud. I also don't care if a new player (who's first choice was to come to the forums and complain about evil gunships touching his bomber) stays. But I thought I shouldn't limit myself to just telling him he's a noob that needs to learn how to play. I wanted to give him/her an explanation in a language and tone he/she can understand.

Do you care if when you queue up there is a pop in a reasonable amount of time? If the answer is yes then caring about the text in red should be a high priority.

 

Reading the text in orange will do much good for you, along with reading the entire thing instead of ripping a few words and putting them together to suit your agenda.

[Lendul]

I see this sentiment a lot. Where are you all getting the data backing up this conclusion that a whole whack of you seem to be incredibly confident about? Have you talked to (level headed) new players trying to learn? Or is it just an echo chamber of people who want to feel better about themselves by convincing themselves they are doing the right thing?

 

From what I have seen, the servers who baby their new players (not three capping, "going easy" etc.) are stagnating and their ques are slowly dying while the old boys clubs use the servers as personal playgrounds. Alternatively, the ones where there is ample competition are producing players with fire in their hearts. These servers have new aces popping up regularly and faster pops than I have seen in a long time.

The Bastion, POT5, The Shadowlands and The Ebon Hawk used to have larger queues than The Harbinger. What happened? You have obviously never done much gardening. Your method would be to just throw seeds out and let the ones grow that will grow. You will reap a much larger harvest if you nurture and value each and every seed and cultivate it.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Lendul

[WiseStranger]

The Bastion, POT5, The Shadowlands and The Ebon Hawk used to have larger queues than The Harbinger. What happened? You have obviously never done much gardening. Your method would be to just throw seeds out and let the ones grow that will grow. You will reap a much larger harvest if you nurture and value each and every seed and cultivate it.

 

It will come to you as a surprise, but all of those servers really died out when the cheap server transfers were introduced and people rushed to most populated servers due to the lack of cross server PvP/GSF and insufficient number of end game content participants.

 

It's like saying poor gardening skills of pompeians caused their gardens to become what they had become and the volcano had nothing to do with it.

[Lavaar]

The Bastion, POT5, The Shadowlands and The Ebon Hawk used to have larger queues than The Harbinger. What happened? You have obviously never done much gardening. Your method would be to just throw seeds out and let the ones grow that will grow. You will reap a much larger harvest if you nurture and value each and every seed and cultivate it.

 

Interesting analogy, as I am actually a large-scale farmer. I am currently looking after 70,000 chickens, and when I find weak or sick birds, I cull them out immediately to prevent them from infecting the rest of the flock, while also reducing the amount of input required to keep the ecosystem healthy.

 

Gardening is a great analogy when you're working with a small group of pilots and attempting to nurture them into aces, sort of like how you would mentor pilots within a guild, as we are doing right now. However, the analogy does not work as well when referring to the overall gsf population.

 

I am not saying I am right or wrong about anything here, I never do, but I am always wary when people believe their ideas are infallible and have 100% confidence in them, as there isn't a person alive who can always see all angles at once. I see far too often people putting forth all of these ideas about "going easy" which aren't even consistent from server to server, and I would honestly like to know where this sentiment comes from.

 

I am not even going to get into specifics about the individual ques of each server, because I think everyone here already knows everything there is to know about it, and I don't believe you are fooling many people by bringing that up unless they are biased or unaware of the situations. The reason why some of the servers have become ghost towns sure as hell isn't because of the behavior of a few GSF pilots.

[Lendul]

It will come to you as a surprise, but all of those servers really died out when the cheap server transfers were introduced and people rushed to most populated servers due to the lack of cross server PvP/GSF and insufficient number of end game content participants.

 

It's like saying poor gardening skills of pompeians caused their gardens to become what they had become and the volcano had nothing to do with it.

Except their queues withered before that. No surprises here. Just one example. POT5 was once the place to be when it came to GSF. Then Black Squadron vs Death Squadron happened. They killed their server's queue and eventually left for greener pasture as locusts are prone to do. It's the same thing with the relentless L2P people they will just go to the most appealing place until they kill it and then look for somewhere else to go. Edited February 16, 2016 by Lendul

[Lendul]

Interesting analogy, as I am actually a large-scale farmer. I am currently looking after 70,000 chickens

 

Gardening is a great analogy when you're working with a small group of pilots

 

The thing about GSF is that you are working with a small amount of pilots. To analogize GSF you have around 2,000 chickens but you want to grow that into 70,000. As a farmer, you tell me what happens when you have way more roosters(relentless pilots) than hens(merciful pilots)?

[Greezt]

The pops on the larger servers tend to be the same names over and over again. Most of the players who already like the game play on one or more of these servers, so you just get pops vs. the same people.

 

From multiple games against your group, I can tell you that most players DON'T appreciate being demolished by a premade of aces. In fact, I've seen players who would stop spawning in TDM and wait for it to end. If you think that's ok because these players are "weak", that's fine. But you aren't keeping the queue healthy, unless less equals more.

 

I wouldn't know if that's the way to produce aces. Maybe it is. I prefer to fly a fun game and know that my competition had a chance as well, and didn't feel like I wiped the floor with them.

 

Edit: politeness can't hurt in any case.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Greezt

[Blizzax]

Hi Okaww,

yesterday I was in three or four TDMs against an "Okawz", as far as I remember the spelling.

At least that guy seems to fit quite good with your post.

This Okawz used T1 and T2 scouts, on rare occasions a gunship. I was using the Quarrel.

Okawz had a hard time flying alongside five to six very green newbies. The opposition had between four to six experienced pilots, including at least two gunships.

 

The teaming is the first thing that made it difficult for Okawz to fight the gunships. The two gunships were positioned with overlapping attack spheres. They did not actively provide cover but having two of them adjacent makes bringing them down more difficult even for a good pilot.

 

But besides the team setup Okawz's attack attempts were too obvious and most of the time coming in frontal.

The gunships noticed the approach from far beyond the 15km sphere and were prepared for it. Often we could hit Okawz exactly when passing the 15km line. Sometimes he turned around and took cover after the first hit; which was wise.

 

So what can you do better to bring me down?

 

Do not approach a gunship within it's sensor focus cone (30°). Go in from the sides.

From the sides is often better than from above as the gunship would have to yaw or it needs to roll before pitching.

 

Remember your target display. If the gunship is facing you or even has switched you on as target, cancel the approach and try another attack vector.

Also keep in mind that the gunship will be using it's target display too. Do not select the gunship as a target too early. You will be watched out for if you put it on even from beyond 15km.

 

If there is cover, use it. Okawz tried to but I was often positioned in the open without much cover within my 15km sphere.

In that case: team up. Even much better gunship pilots than me cannot kill two approaching scouts.

The same is true when fighting more than one gunship. Coordinate the attack. At least one attacker per gunship; two against the more experienced players.

 

If you are already boosting towards the gunship and it finally has turned to you, pitch up and down at least until you get as close as 3km.

The ones I have the most problems with are those that fly heavily evasive down to under 1km. But it takes patience to fly that close before opening fire.

 

And what if there are too many gunships or gunships teamed up with bombers?

Take one yourself and prepare for a lengthy WW1 trench war.

[WiseStranger]

The pops on the larger servers tend to be the same names over and over again. Most of the players who already like the game play on one or more of these servers, so you just get pops vs. the same people.

 

From multiple games against your group, I can tell you that most players DON'T appreciate being demolished by a premade of aces. In fact, I've seen players who would stop spawning in TDM and wait for it to end. If you think that's ok because these players are "weak", that's fine. But you aren't keeping the queue healthy, unless less equals more.

 

I wouldn't know if that's the way to produce aces. Maybe it is. I prefer to fly a fun game and know that my competition had a chance as well, and didn't feel like I wiped the floor with them.

 

I remember on BC I was told a story: there was or maybe is a guild on the imp side that liked to get into premades and once they decided to go easy on some pubs in TDM and kill them by forcing them to suicide with constant missile locks and mild damage to shields to make them move. I was told that game ended 50 to something very small like nothing. Do you really think those players appreciated that they were toyed with? Do you think they didn't figure it out in the end or in the process? Do you think none of them started to self-destruct on the cap ship wishing for the game to be over sooner? If I were to be put into the same situation, I'd rather for it to be quick and merciless to get it over with and get into the next game.

 

GSF is held together mostly by veterans (regardless of skill level) people who like GSF for what it is. While yes we want some improvements, we recognize that the game is balanced enough to survive without any developer attention for something close to 2 years (correct me if I'm wrong on the time here). While yes we want more people in, we want new people that understand GSF and accept it for what it is. Most of us made our way from being new to veteran, from being stock to mastered (later many of us did more than once). We know about the challenges and limitations, but what makes a good player good is not a mastered ship of choice, but knowledge how to use the ship. Last thing we need are noobs like OP to come and dictate their biased version of balance. It's like that joke: "Please nerf the paper, scissors are fine just as is." signed "Rock". Once you play as rock, as paper and as scissors you will understand the balance better and you might even be able to make sound suggestions.

 

We don't need any more threads complaining about the game controls, no support for joysticks, calls for nerfs to OP T1 gunships, T2 scouts and T1 & T2 bombers. It's all had been discussed and explained. There are no secrets that only aces know. Quite a few aces stream regularly. Some even do tutorial videos and write guides for noobs. Most veterans are willing to answer questions in game and even group up with less experienced players. Some guilds offer new players to join mumble/TS/etc. for ease of communication. All that we ask from noobs is to do as we suggest. Look at DomiSotto, a fine example of the attitude we need. Yes he was new and didn't have a clue. He asked questions and got answers. He was actively trying to get better and not raging that the game doesn't revolve around him. Now he's better and understands the game better.

 

Competence and knowledge come with time and effort. You rarely notice the line when one becomes competent and knowledgeable if you observe the individual continuously, but it's evident when you take a current snapshot and compare it to starting point.

[DomiSotto]

You give me too much credit. I am simply someone who gave up on the silly notion of being able to do well if you only try hard enough, and enjoy it even when knowing that time and efforts I continue to pour into it will bring me up from below the bottom of the barrel to the bottom of the barrel, maybe some ways above it on a good day. The game/PvP is fun when your very best is not nearly good enough, if you don't agonize over it and don't attach your self-worth to a computer game. It's a good game. But it's just a game. And I will play whatever I chose to play in it, Faction, game-mode, role, whatever. Edited February 16, 2016 by DomiSotto

[Greezt]

I remember on BC I was told a story: there was or maybe is a guild on the imp side that liked to get into premades and once they decided to go easy on some pubs in TDM and kill them by forcing them to suicide with constant missile locks and mild damage to shields to make them move. I was told that game ended 50 to something very small like nothing. Do you really think those players appreciated that they were toyed with? Do you think they didn't figure it out in the end or in the process? Do you think none of them started to self-destruct on the cap ship wishing for the game to be over sooner? If I were to be put into the same situation, I'd rather for it to be quick and merciless to get it over with and get into the next game.

 

GSF is held together mostly by veterans (regardless of skill level) people who like GSF for what it is. While yes we want some improvements, we recognize that the game is balanced enough to survive without any developer attention for something close to 2 years (correct me if I'm wrong on the time here). While yes we want more people in, we want new people that understand GSF and accept it for what it is. Most of us made our way from being new to veteran, from being stock to mastered (later many of us did more than once). We know about the challenges and limitations, but what makes a good player good is not a mastered ship of choice, but knowledge how to use the ship. Last thing we need are noobs like OP to come and dictate their biased version of balance. It's like that joke: "Please nerf the paper, scissors are fine just as is." signed "Rock". Once you play as rock, as paper and as scissors you will understand the balance better and you might even be able to make sound suggestions.

 

We don't need any more threads complaining about the game controls, no support for joysticks, calls for nerfs to OP T1 gunships, T2 scouts and T1 & T2 bombers. It's all had been discussed and explained. There are no secrets that only aces know. Quite a few aces stream regularly. Some even do tutorial videos and write guides for noobs. Most veterans are willing to answer questions in game and even group up with less experienced players. Some guilds offer new players to join mumble/TS/etc. for ease of communication. All that we ask from noobs is to do as we suggest. Look at DomiSotto, a fine example of the attitude we need. Yes he was new and didn't have a clue. He asked questions and got answers. He was actively trying to get better and not raging that the game doesn't revolve around him. Now he's better and understands the game better.

 

Competence and knowledge come with time and effort. You rarely notice the line when one becomes competent and knowledgeable if you observe the individual continuously, but it's evident when you take a current snapshot and compare it to starting point.

 

I never said anything about "toying" with my opponents. That would be worse than straight out slaughtering them. However, you can play a more balanced game, trying hard while giving them a chance. Swap a ship. On TRE, someone I know (and I personally think is a good pilot) swaps to the clarion every time the odds favor us by too much. They still fly well, they still get kills (and often top damage), and they still don't die a lot - maybe once or twice a match. However, they aren't destroying the opposition - because a clarion can't do that. It doesn't have range of a gunship or the burst of a scout. They're also having fun... Because if you enjoy flying strikes, uneven games are the perfect opportunity to do so. I try to do the same whenever I can, and I find it gives me a chance to try out weird builds I couldn't fly on serious games. For example, my current one is a booster recharge/QC/LLC/pods novadive... I'm enjoying it, and they can kill me. Win/win.

 

No argument about the fact that skill takes work. I've played over 1500 games and I'm above average at best. The fact is you don't have to abuse someone who came here for saying something... Yes, they are wrong, and yes, they are whining - but GSF (as any pvp) is hard at the beginning. Instead of walking over someone, try offering advice, explaining the problems and proposing solutions. A less snarky tone might make them listen to you and appreciate the help.

 

Of course, if you don't care for a larger playerbase, none of that matters. I like to think that with a growing interest, maybe the devs will one day return to GSF. Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but either way it doesn't hurt to have more people to play with - and I'm certain that even people who disagree with me on every other point will agree on this.

 

As for time - I believe Drakko said 20 months.

[Danalon]

It's hard to imagine how new players must feel. In short, new players usually are so helpless, they can't even see the difference between good and mediocre pilots.

 

Some time ago I saw a new pilot complaining about "the Reps just farming us in their upgraded ships and premades". I offered to join him and a gave him some standard info (what ships to buy and why some components/upgrades are important) and told him to just ask if there's anything. The next match we played, he told me that the other team was the "premade" from before. I completely wrecked them with 30+ kills (and it still was a close game). Neither were they good, and most likely they weren't a premade, but the low population just forced the matchmaker to build the same teams for some games in a row.

 

For us veterans it's really hard to understand the way new players feel. I've got 3k games played and even when starting a new character and fly with low upgrade starter ships I'm an above average contributor to most matches I join.

All we veterans can do is offer as much help to new players as we can (and want) and hope some of the new players stay long enough to feel the difference their presence can make to a game.

 

 

If you want to help newer players make this subforum and it's threads worth reading. Don't let it devolve into a typical PvP-forum. If someone needs help, even if it's worded like a complaint, then offer help; if someone is obviously trolling, ignore whenever possible.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Danalon