Damage Meters

[_droider_]

My point is that group-wide damage meters rarely get used for their intended purpose in groups.

 

Welfare isn't bad, it's the people that purposefully abuse it by having 16 kids to collect more money. Or the woman that made millions off McDonalds because there wasn't a disclaimer stating the coffee was hot; does that mean the legal system should be abolished because she worked the system?

 

People will always abuse systems for unintended purposes. You can't avoid that; doesn't mean the system is wrong. What you can do is ignore them and make use of the system for your and your group/guild's benefit.

[terminova]

Facts are needed to provide necessary checks and balances; assumptions based on splash text are just that...assumptions. Simply saying that "x boss died and we didn't" is not a valid defense for not needing a combat log.

 

Hoping you meant damage meter...

 

I haven't seen any reasons given that validate having group-wide damage meters.

 

*Snipped irrelevant part*

 

People will always abuse systems for unintended purposes. You can't avoid that; doesn't mean the system is wrong. What you can do is ignore them and make use of the system for your and your group/guild's benefit.

 

Group wide damage meters are not needed in this game, and do more harm than good. If a guild wants to use personal damage meters for figuring out where a problem is, then they can respectfully ask for the logs of the players in the guild run group, but that's as far as it should go. People in random pugs are generally not going to play nice, and have no need to know what someone else's DPS is, ever. Both sides win: people get a personal damage meter to figure out what their personal DPS is, and guilds have something to figure out where they stand as far as progression goes.

Edited February 16, 2012 by terminova

[ferroz]

Hoping you meant damage meter...

 

I haven't seen any reasons given that validate having group-wide damage meters.

• It lets you evaluate your own performance in it's full context; without that context, a meter is useless. If, for example, you do 20% more damage in this fight than the last... is it because there's a damage increasing mechanic (which would be an across the board increase, and may mean that a 20% increase is under performing), or did you do well that fight? you suggestion fails on this in it's entirety
  
• It lets you quickly identify people who are vastly under performing, and to diagnose why they are under performing (many rotation problems can be seen in recount, for example). You suggestion fails on the "quickly" part.
  
• It lets you quickly identify people who are not performing certain mechanics correctly (who's breaking CC, who's not interrupting, who's standing in fire, who's not curing, did the tank die to lack of healing or a failed tank switch). You suggestion fails on the "quickly" part.
  
• It allows you to quickly and painlessly collaborate with other people to help them evaluate differences in gear, spec and rotation. You suggestion fails on the "quickly and painlessly" part.
  
• It helps a raid leader quickly and painlessly see what happened when a fight went wrong; especially useful when trying new fights with unknown mechanics.You suggestion fails on the "quickly and painlessly" part.
  
• etc.
  

 

 

Group wide damage meters are not needed

Need is a red herring. Nothing in the game, not even the game client itself, is needed. It's all stuff that people want.

 

Group wide meters are wanted. Asserting that they aren't *needed* isn't a valid argument against people getting what they want.

Edited February 16, 2012 by ferroz

[_droider_]

Hoping you meant damage meter...

 

I haven't seen any reasons given that validate having group-wide damage meters.

 

 

 

Group wide damage meters are not needed in this game, and do more harm than good. If a guild wants to use personal damage meters for figuring out where a problem is, then they can respectfully ask for the logs of the players in the guild run group, but that's as far as it should go. People in random pugs are generally not going to play nice, and have no need to know what someone else's DPS is, ever. Both sides win: people get a personal damage meter to figure out what their personal DPS is, and guilds have something to figure out where they stand as far as progression goes.

 

You're a very pessimistic person. Dont abandon an idea because you know that 5% of the population is going to abuse it. The overall community will benefit from global logs; new builds can be validated, weaknesses fleshed out. If you enjoy ignorance (or 'the magic' as someone put it) then simply don't use them.

[DEuZZ]

No need. Go back to world of failcraft if you this needy.

[_droider_]

No need. Go back to world of failcraft if you this needy.

 

Shouldn't you be guarding a bridge somewhere?

[gurugeorge]

I'm always in two minds about this myself. On the one hand, min-maxers have ruined every MMO ever (endless FOTM chasing and rebalancing).

 

On the other hand, I'll always avidly read what they say

 

On a more serious note, while I can understand the "fun" argument, the funsters have to understand that the moral obligation is reciprocal. You can't expect to turn up in a "serious" team and expect them to stoically ignore your brokenness. Hopefully there are other, more relaxed teams you can join.

 

But then, on the other hand, things aren't all that often decided by percentage points here and there, but more by good leadership, team synergy and team spirit.

 

So meh. I stand by meters only on test dummies for private use.

[Kenmuir]

How can people be so hypocritical against Damage Meters?

 

It is literally the same thing as a combat, or the animations displaying on the screen.

 

Damage Meters are a bar graph, the animations on the screen are a table with the information. That's the most simple comparison there is. They provide exactly the same information in different way.

 

How can you be so selfish to say that you enjoy using a data table so much and hate bar graphs so much, that no one else in the entire game should be allowed to use a bar graph?

 

And why is the "hur dur tools are the reason people are mean to each other in pug"(never mind how wrong that statement is.) a SUFFICIENT reason to prevent other people from PLAYING THE GAME THE WAY THEY WANT? (My guess: It's the burnout old school player who feels like WoW ruined his niche genre, and is so blinded by his selfish desires that the only way he can "enjoy" the game is to force everyone to play by his arbitrary rules.)

Edited February 16, 2012 by Kenmuir

[AKfourtyseven]

This mentality is the equivalent of not having grades in an academic setting to measure how much information you are retaining because people would 'just know' whether or not you are learning.

 

Dylan Williams; assessment for learning.

 

Sometimes numbers alone do not work...

[Lemilberto]

I find this issue completely hilarious. Not catering toward a specific group of people or "Elitists" is losing subscriptions from some of the most active members of a game. A meter is useful, shows what your doing, shows if your doing it right. A casual player can just play casually, do dungeons, find a small casual guild and enjoy.

As for people who like to play this game and like to feel competitive, a meter is awesome. There is absolutely no reason in not having it, if you are really terrible then you should be penalized for it if your trying to do harder content. Meters are taken with a grain of salt anyway, anyone who knows anything about a meter, like previously stated, knows that not everyone can preform at optimal stand still levels during every encounter. There will always be a high schooler or middle schooler that is yelling about your damage and not realizing that you had to run around and press buttons on the wall. Regardless, the tool is useful, i cant wait until they put it in and am looking forward to it.

[havacooki]

• It lets you evaluate your own performance in it's full context; without that context, a meter is useless. If, for example, you do 20% more damage in this fight than the last... is it because there's a damage increasing mechanic (which would be an across the board increase, and may mean that a 20% increase is under performing), or did you do well that fight? you suggestion fails on this in it's entirety
  
• It lets you quickly identify people who are vastly under performing, and to diagnose why they are under performing (many rotation problems can be seen in recount, for example). You suggestion fails on the "quickly" part.
  
• It lets you quickly identify people who are not performing certain mechanics correctly (who's breaking CC, who's not interrupting, who's standing in fire, who's not curing, did the tank die to lack of healing or a failed tank switch). You suggestion fails on the "quickly" part.
  
• It allows you to quickly and painlessly collaborate with other people to help them evaluate differences in gear, spec and rotation. You suggestion fails on the "quickly and painlessly" part.
  
• It helps a raid leader quickly and painlessly see what happened when a fight went wrong; especially useful when trying new fights with unknown mechanics.You suggestion fails on the "quickly and painlessly" part.
  
• etc.
  

 

 

Need is a red herring. Nothing in the game, not even the game client itself, is needed. It's all stuff that people want.

 

Group wide meters are wanted. Asserting that they aren't *needed* isn't a valid argument against people getting what they want.

 

/signed, I agree 100%

[Sampen]

Do you really think that's the truth? I really do feel sorrty for people who would follow "the rules" so blindly. Anyway meters are just a tool like so many keep saying, but people are just people too. They will abuse it and use it to hurt other people. So what's the point of having something like that in a game?

 

 

Im currently in my second week of playing swtor - great game. Have been levelling as an assassin tank. But my willingness to join heroics and flashpoints at this stage is severely dampened by the lack of a damage meter, or a threat meter. Or even a marking system that will allow me to designate order of kills. The 10 or so times i have grouped up for difficult kills has been stymied by multiple group wipes because people do not understand the basics of attacking the weakest target. It lowers the quality of gameplay for good tanks if they have to constantly switch targets. Then it puts more stress on midrange ability healers, and they lose pleasure in the game.

 

8 of the 10 heroics it hasnt been an issue - people are nice, we wipe a bit here and there, but the job gets done and people leave happy (albeit in a longer time taken to do it all). But the other two, people have raged and asked me why im not doing my job, etc, and keep losing threat. Kinda hard to do that when you have two dps both attacking completely wrong seperate targets and breaking ccs and not establishing ccs.

 

No mods present and people can still be ********s... I would at least prefer them to be accurate when they are being tools. Mods will allow that.

[Sampen]

Example of how it can affect play:

 

<Boss dies>

 

<Top DPS posts meter to stroke epeen>

 

Everyone notices bottom DPS has half the DPS of most of the others.

 

Rage! Who invited that scrub?! *kick*

 

Friend of kicked player: Bob's asking why he was kicked? He says he had to off heal some of that fight.

 

Guild: Doh!

 

Bob: Rage!!! /gquit

 

 

I dont see anything wrong with this scenario. Bob and friend go on to a better guild where they have healers that dont need help, and Bob gets to play properly and the way he wants to. The guild who kicked Bob lose out on a versatile player and thereby get punished for their ignorance, and for their hasty actions and accusations.

 

Bob and friend go to another guild which also uses damage meters, but in a way that recognizes that Bob is smart enough to step into extra jobs when he is needed, rather than just doing his own blindly.

 

Two weeks later Bob and Friend have seen more content, and are happy in their new guild.

 

DPS meter win.

[GOYAFIDO]

What I find amusing is that people say they want to be allowed to play their game their way without being judged and dictated to by OTHERS whereupon they turn around and act like the way those OTHER people play is wrong and they judge THEM for it and dictate to THEM how THEY should be playing.

 

People say things like "Real players don't need meters" or comments to the effect that "those judgmental, name-calling elitists ruin this game for everyone else", not to mention any variation of "If you don't like it here you can always leave" or "Why won't you just relax and HAVE FUN!!! (and not worry about being the best...)" and ultimately:

 

"No recount for YOU!!! *SLAM!!!*"

 

...and they utterly and completely FAIL to see the irony and hypocrisy in how they judge other people, tell them their style of play is wrong and dictate to them how they should be playing.

 

The cherry on this dookie sundae?: The real source of their hurt is not the elitists at all, but their unwillingness or inability to ignore or cope with that tiny population of truly irrelevant players known as epeeners. People act like they are everywhere and run everything and this just isn't so.

 

Plenty of people find trying to be #1 both relaxing AND fun. Why do people take it upon themselves to pass judgement on these players and dictate to them how they should play especially whilst trumpeting "I want to be free to be ME!!!"?

 

Every time anyone posts a thread about epeeners, many of those trolls/epeeners read them and enjoy the tears you keep handing them in a golden goblet by giving them undue and unneeded attention in the first place.

 

You get to choose how you feel. If you want to hand control over to the trolls/epeeners who MAKE you upset, quit trying to control others. Your judgement certainly needs questioning as you are clearly willing to give up control to someone else and then complain when they take it.

 

There are plenty of judgmental, name-calling elitists dictating to others how they should be playing in this game. Go read the anti-meters posts, you will find many such persons posting them.

 

If a player wants to be more casual rather than less, I fully support their right to their style of play but I see NO validity in their complaints about being not wanted in a group that prefers less casual and more pro, after all we ARE free to play the game we want to play without being judged or dictated to, amirite?

 

TL;DR: Being judgmental of others and dictating to them how they should play as a method of validating a position that is based on not wanting to be judged and dictated to by others makes about as much sense as shooting people in a mall to promote gun control or getting drunk and driving into a crowded bus stop to promote stricter punishments for drunk driving.

 

YOU are the weakest link in your game, not Bioware and not the epeeners or anyone else for that matter.

 

Since people are of the opinion that most players are casual then the presence of meters shouldn't effect your game at ALL since there are plenty of other players JUST LIKE YOU to group with, amirite?

 

Meters for those who want them, those who don't, don't have to use them.

Edited February 23, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[GOYAFIDO]

I dont see anything wrong with this scenario. Bob and friend go on to a better guild where they have healers that dont need help, and Bob gets to play properly and the way he wants to. The guild who kicked Bob lose out on a versatile player and thereby get punished for their ignorance, and for their hasty actions and accusations.

 

Bob and friend go to another guild which also uses damage meters, but in a way that recognizes that Bob is smart enough to step into extra jobs when he is needed, rather than just doing his own blindly.

 

Two weeks later Bob and Friend have seen more content, and are happy in their new guild.

 

DPS meter win.

 

This.

[LethalVector]

I agree with the OP, but for some slightly different reasons. Yes infact there are people who would use damage meters just to call people noobs, but in a mature adult guild I can see damage meters being a huge plus, to help players get better. And when players do better they feel better, because they feel like the are contributing to the whole of the group. That is just one small reason to support damage meters, but my main one is so that i can play around with my abilities and priorities/rotation. What if i throw in orbital strike in my snipers rotation? Is it just a waste of energy will small damage boost or is there really something to it? Damage meters gives the incentive to better yourself or try something new. That or just to help you learn where to stick your abilities and when to use them. Yes there are pro's and con's to them, mostly kids having a field day calling others noobs and such to make themselves feel better, but i feel that the community itself would quickly gain interest in testing new things and ideas such as "hmm what if i stuck this in such in such place". Then there are the people who say "DON'T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY MY CLASS!!! GO BACK TO WOW YOU ELITEST!!". I wouldn't want this to turn into a "which spec is the best" tool, but a more of how best to utilize your spec. I couldn't care if you are rage, carnage, or anili as a SW, but I would assume you would have much more fun playing your spec if you do better. No one is telling you to change from one spec to another, but simply saying take a little bit of time to yourself, and play around with your abilities on the dummy and find out what clicks with your spec, and hopefully you find improvement if you need it. If you don't like damage meters then just don't use them. So instead of turning this into an argument of "elitest" vs "nonelitest" how about you take a moment to ask yourself if you would want to better yourself if you had the chance, while still having fun. That's all i ask for Bioware, a tool to help better the player, not to ridicule them and just give others reason to call a player a noob. In a nutshell the tool is more for personal use more than in ops, hopefully I don't get trolled for this post but i guess whatever happens, happens.

 

Thanks for listening to my two cents

[erei]

Example of how it can affect play:

 

<Boss dies>

 

<Top DPS posts meter to stroke epeen>

 

Everyone notices bottom DPS has half the DPS of most of the others.

 

Rage! Who invited that scrub?! *kick*

 

Friend of kicked player: Bob's asking why he was kicked? He says he had to off heal some of that fight.

 

Guild: Doh!

 

Bob: Rage!!! /gquit

>What happen without DPS meter :

Boss enrage.

Everyone wipe. Again, and again. Something is clearly wrong.

 

"WTH are you doing DPS ?!"

 

"Hey, I'm doing fine ! But the merc we invited seems to have a shi** rotation, seriously this guy is full heat in a matter of second ! And he use his heal instead of DPSing !"

 

Rage! Who invited that scrub?! *kick*

 

Friend of kicked player: Bob's asking why he was kicked?

 

Guild: Because he was a noob.

 

Bob: Rage!!! /gquit

 

 

You assume people are dumb enough to don't see there is a problem without a DPS meter. I can see who is failing hard without a DPS meter. And if I want to kick him because there is NO WAY we will do anything else than wipe over and over, I'll kick him. No need of a DPS meter. Yesterday, HK 47 from FE AND malgus enraged. Malgus enraged BEFORE the ligthning spam. I didn't even knew it was possible. And the DPS were columi/rakata. I don't need a dps meter to understand they are absolutely bad. I don't need a DPS meter to see I need twice the same amount of time to kill trashs than with others DPS. We barely finished FE, and disbanded the group.

 

On the other hand, I can't help my friends/guildmate to improve their gameplay, because I can't clearly see what they do wrong. I can see they fail, but not precisely how.

[Esproc]

I know, I know, I’m beating a dead horse, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

 

This game would benefit from a tool that can measure the effectiveness of the DPS classes.

 

I know that the opponents of damage meters will argue that damage meters ruined such games as WoW because players were scrutinized on their performance in instances/raids. The players that weren’t living up to the standards of others were belittled and because of this the fun was drained from the game.

 

Is this not true with most games though? If you’re not performing at a certain expected level of skill or competence, the game will turn on you, you will fail and the game will cease to be fun.

 

On the other side of the coin, if you perform at, or above the expected level of skill or competence, the game will reward you for your efforts and you will have a positive experience.

 

The trick with MMOs is that we have to rely on not only our own level of skill and competence, but the level of skill and competence of other players. For the most part, it’s pretty easy to tell if a tank or healer is doing their job effectively, but without damage meters it can be tricky to tell whether or not a DPSer is doing their job.

 

For any given boss fight:

 

Did the boss die fast enough or did it die slower than it should have? Were the two DPS classes on par with each other, or was one carrying the load? Perhaps the tank was doing the most DPS. If the tank was doing more DPS than the DPS classes, is it safe to say that the DPS classes were not fulfilling their role? Should it matter as long as the group makes it through the instance?

 

The last question is what the folks against damage meters seem to focus on: “Hey, we made it through the instance. That was the goal right? We weren’t trying to break any speed records after all…” and I agree with that, however I feel that the people who enjoy spending 3 hours in an instance that should’ve taken 45 minutes to complete would be in the minority.

 

With damage meters a group can pinpoint the issues that led to the slow run (and possible wipe as a result of not killing a boss fast enough) and make adjustments accordingly. For instance, when this theoretical group reviews the damage meters they see the following:

 

Sniper (DPS) – 76%

Juggernaut (Tank) – 15%

Mercenary (DPS) – 9%

Sorcerers (Heals) – 0%

 

 

 

Of course this is an extreme case, but there’s obviously a glaring issue with that mercenary’s DPS. Since the group has a damage meter to see this, they can quickly assess the situation and work with the mercenary to make sure he has the right gear equipped, the correct talent spec for his role and is using the most effective attacks to improve his DPS. Without a damage meter it would’ve taken much longer to try and figure out whether the sniper or the mercenary, or both, were the issue.

 

Of course this would not be a typical scenario. In a typical scenario, especially in a PUG, this would’ve ended quite badly for the mercenary and he would’ve probably received a “Your DPS sucks! G-T-F-O n00b!” response.

 

So, this poor merc has a few options at this point. He can either:

 

A. Feel completely hurt and leave the game forever

B. Say “Whatever, I’ll do what I want!” and join another group, ruining 3 other gamers’ experience

C. Say “Man, I’m obviously doing something wrong” and go do a little research on his class to find out how he can be better at it

 

If he chooses option “A” I’m sorry to say it, but maybe MMOs aren’t for him. MMOs are the internet, and like it or not, if you’re having social interactions with strangers on the internet, you’re gonna need thick skin. Also, kids are cruel, and there are a lot of them playing MMOs.

 

If he chooses option “B” he’s just being outright selfish and he deserves the negative comments he’ll get from groups.

 

If he chooses option “C” not only will he have a more positive experience within groups, but the other 3 people will also have a more positive experience.

 

I think it’s safe to say that everyone wants to have a positive experience when they enter an instance. The best way to ensure that everyone does have a positive experience is to make sure that everyone is performing the role that they were asked into group to do, and for the DPS classes, this means having a way to measure the damage they do.

 

Snoring....

 

Was said lower dps damage class doing what they were intended to do, such as CC, kill the proper mob, not stand in fire, yada-yada-yada. A Damage meter does not show who is doing the full job, only who is attacking for the dps race with no consequence as to the true mechanics that should be considered.

 

Don't turn this into a foolish dps contest that ignores mechanics that should be considered to actually down the mobs and or Boss.

 

As a tank I have been second on the dps list, beaten only by my guild mate (dps) who (had the dps meter) wanted me for my "insta que". Were the other dps AFK'ers or just bad? We did it and completed what we were doing. Don't add meters, be thankful for your parsers, or someone like you may throw out the truly competent player for the bad.

[MajikMyst]

>What happen without DPS meter :

Boss enrage.

Everyone wipe. Again, and again. Something is clearly wrong.

 

"WTH are you doing DPS ?!"

 

"Hey, I'm doing fine ! But the merc we invited seems to have a shi** rotation, (How do you know this??) seriously this guy is full heat in a matter of second ! And he use his heal instead of DPSing !" (Maybe he is healing to help the healers??)

 

Rage! Who invited that scrub?! *kick*

 

Friend of kicked player: Bob's asking why he was kicked?

 

Guild: Because he was a noob.

 

Bob: Rage!!! /gquit

 

 

You assume people are dumb enough to don't see there is a problem without a DPS meter. I can see who is failing hard without a DPS meter. And if I want to kick him because there is NO WAY we will do anything else than wipe over and over, I'll kick him. No need of a DPS meter. Yesterday, HK 47 from FE AND malgus enraged. Malgus enraged BEFORE the ligthning spam. I didn't even knew it was possible. And the DPS were columi/rakata. I don't need a dps meter to understand they are absolutely bad. I don't need a DPS meter to see I need twice the same amount of time to kill trashs than with others DPS. We barely finished FE, and disbanded the group.

 

On the other hand, I can't help my friends/guildmate to improve their gameplay, because I can't clearly see what they do wrong. I can see they fail, but not precisely how.

 

See the red for the part you need to consider?? I do realise that you are sort of rewriting the first little scenario.. But still.. Both are really kind of weak.. As for the rest of your post?? I call BS!! You have no way of knowing anything and that is how it should be..

 

There should no meters in this game that publically show someone's DPS.. Unless of course you are some kind of elitist jerk (Name of a guild in WOW BTW.) and you just want claim your a better person because you have no life and can out DPS someone else..

 

I have no problem downing bosses in my guild.. I don't need to blame on any one person either... We down them as a team and we fail as a team.. That is how it should be in any guild.. Getting into a habit of pointing fingers is not good for any guild.. Enough people leave your guild and no more raiding for you.. Guss your guild's DPS will really suck then won't it?? All a meter does is help people point fingers.. Yes.. I do know they would have a purpose in diagnosing an issue.. But there is more than one way to figure things out, and more than one way to handling them besides calling someone out..

 

We have our combat logs now.. We have combat dummies.. There is no reason we can't figure out our DPS ourselves and decide if we need to improve or not??

 

This isn't WOW and I hope it never becomes WOW.. Nobody should have to wear their DPS on their chest as some badge of honor to get picked to go on a raid.. Or to laugh at someone else because they don't do as much as you..

 

Again.. My guild is downing bosses just fine and we are having fun doing it without trampling all over someone else for some stupid reason.. It is a game after all..

Edited June 2, 2012 by MajikMyst

[LordAshKior]

I hear alot of pros & cons to the idea of a Stats Meter of some kind. The way i see it is that its about 50/50 so the main issue i see is that BioWare just needs to give 3rd party Stat Meter developers (like guildstats.net) the tools to do it accurately. Then let the individual player decide if they will use it. One of the things our Guild wants to do, for fun, is give out weekly awards on our guild website (hosted by shivtr.com) based on healing, dps, tanking, deaths, and revives. Not to mention that i do believe it will help in tweeking how u play your class & could help BioWare find over or under powered classes. I personally think that my Sentinel combat spec'ed is way under powered, seeing as the Sentinel can't spec for anything else other than DPS. So yes I'd like a stat meter & i like guildstats.net they just dont have the developers tool to make a seamless one.

[erei]

See the red for the part you need to consider?? I do realise that you are sort of rewriting the first little scenario.. But still.. Both are really kind of weak.. As for the rest of your post?? I call BS!! You have no way of knowing anything and that is how it should be..

Boss have enrage timer. Timer is set in stone, no matter what you do, they enrage after Xminutes. If I have a team and I successfully kill the boss before the enrage, everything is fine. But if we fail to beat the enrage, our DPS sucks. That's just facts. Maybe one dps is good, and the other is bad. Maybe one dps spend his time healing because the healer suck. Honestly, he is also a bad DPS, if your healer is a noob, well, you don't have to let the boss enrage because of this. Whatever reasons you have, if your team fail to beat the enrage timer, your team failed.

It's sometimes VERY easy to see when a DPS suck hard. First gear, a trooper with JK gear ? Well, ok. A dps in tank gear ? Oh yeah, great. Then skill rotation. I met a sorcerer ONLY using his 2 basics heal, the one every sorcerer have. He was healer. We failed because of the lack of heal.

In this game, you also have the energy management. Quite easy to see if someone have no clue on what is energy management on SWTOR.

You may also add : standing in an AoE SEVERAL time, not listening to the lead, not understanding a basic strat...

There is PLENTY of options to see if someone is failing, no need of DPS meter. You just have to be a good player, with some sense of awareness, and know how others class work. Basically, everything a bad player doesn't have.

 

And yeah, I also understand a DPS meter doesn't give everything you need to know if someone is bad or good. I'm not an idiot. And I'm able to have a minimum awareness to see what others do in fight.

 

There should no meters in this game that publically show someone's DPS.. Unless of course you are some kind of elitist jerk (Name of a guild in WOW BTW.) and you just want claim your a better person because you have no life and can out DPS someone else..

If you want to part of the elite, accept to be judge as one. Simple rule of life. Some people want to do the most hardcore content in a game, in the best guild around, but they don't want others to see how much they fail and need to be carried away by their team. They don't want to improve themselves, while their team want to. They don't want to be a better player to help their team, they just want the reward.

Even if it's not true for everyone, it's true for a lot of them.

I'm not a elitist. I have a life, thank you. And I don't play wow, never did. Also, I use dps meter to improve MYSELF, and the friends from my guild, if they ask some help (and I'm able to provide). I'm such a jerk. Still, bad players break my fun when doing content. They make my team fail. Failing is not fun. Do I kick them ? We fail several time, and then I say "sorry, we won't win", and leave. I stay polite. I don't even blame anyone. Honestly, I'm far more polite than the "no DPS meter or I leave !!!" I can hear sometimes on others game. More polite than many people starting a drama because there is a dps meter running. Even when the results are not shown. But yeah, I'm the jerk.

I have no problem downing bosses in my guild.. I don't need to blame on any one person either... We down them as a team and we fail as a team.. That is how it should be in any guild.. Getting into a habit of pointing fingers is not good for any guild.. Enough people leave your guild and no more raiding for you.. Guss your guild's DPS will really suck then won't it?? All a meter does is help people point fingers.. Yes.. I do know they would have a purpose in diagnosing an issue.. But there is more than one way to figure things out, and more than one way to handling them besides calling someone out..

Maybe you are a good player. Maybe not, but your guildmate are good enough to carry you. I don't know you, can't say. And anyway, I didn't say you need to point who is failing. In a guild, you can just talk to him, say he suck, but you can help him to be a better player, for himself and the whole team. Of course, more politely. If he say he doesn't care, well you'll know who is the jerk.

 

We have our combat logs now.. We have combat dummies.. There is no reason we can't figure out our DPS ourselves and decide if we need to improve or not??

DPS is a relative value. Varies from game to game, from encounter to encounter, etc... I know what is my absolute DPS, sure, but what is my DPS compared to other ? I am fine ? Bad ? Average ? Dunno. It's not about e-peen, it's about trying to be a good player, or even the best. I don't plan to show my DPS all over the internet, nobody care.

Also, I used to have a DPS meter in others game to help my guildmate. They asked for it. Sometimes for a friendly competition. I can't on SWTOR.

 

It is a game after all..

You are right, but some people doesn't have the same idea of fun than others. And those people want THEIR idea of fun be the ONLY idea of fun in the whole game.

There is a simple solution, add an option to be "anonymous", IE no DPS value shown for yourself to others.

 

 

Wall of text conclusion :

DPS meter is a tool. Just like a hammer. You can use a hammer to build houses, or to crush people's head. In the end, a hammer is just a hammer.

You can use a DPS meter to improve yourself and your team so they are better, and have more fun, or you can use it to show your e-peen.

Don't blame a tool because it can be used by jerks.

If your guild is using a DPS meter to point finger : change guild. If your guild is using no DPS meter, and keep failing on an enrage timer : change guild. If your guild use a DPS meter to improve themselves, respectfully, and successfully beat encounters, even after some training, you're in a good guild.

[MajikMyst]

-snip-

 

Wall of text conclusion :

DPS meter is a tool. Just like a hammer. You can use a hammer to build houses, or to crush people's head. In the end, a hammer is just a hammer.

You can use a DPS meter to improve yourself and your team so they are better, and have more fun, or you can use it to show your e-peen.

Don't blame a tool because it can be used by jerks.

If your guild is using a DPS meter to point finger : change guild. If your guild is using no DPS meter, and keep failing on an enrage timer : change guild. If your guild use a DPS meter to improve themselves, respectfully, and successfully beat encounters, even after some training, you're in a good guild.

 

Actually.. The DPS meter is not a tool.. It is not required to down a single boss in the game.. Let's keep that part straight.. A DPS meter is not needed or required to down a single boss in this game.. While a hammer of some kind is needed to build a house.. You do not need a DPS meter to down a single boss in this game.. See the difference??

 

We have our combat logs and I already said I was for a DPS meter than showed people their OWN dps and not everyone else's.. Nobody needs to see anyone else's DPS for any reason.. So yes.. I would like to have a meter as a means to better myself.. But not spy on the performance of those I choose to play with.. I trust they are doing what they can to be the best they can be.. We all do our dailies on a regular basis.. We all run our heroic.. We all do what is needed to make sure we have the best gear we can.. And we all help eachother.. No meter needed..

 

E-peen is for people that have nothing better to talk about.. Sorry.. I am married.. I will pass.. I don't need a video game to show how awsome I am.. You shouldn't either and neither should anyone else.. I have better things to do than care about someone's epeen..

 

I am not blaming the tool.. But there is a reason why we have laws against things.. Because people do misuse them.. This is a video game.. We don't need to give people a reason to be a jerk to their fellow players.. It simply makes no sense to have a DPS meter and cause the problems that they create.. PERIOD..

 

No DPS meter is going to help you beat an enrage timer.. I was unware that meters could actually DPS things?? You should try checking your stems.. Make sure you are using any in combat buffs available, like inspiration for instance.. Gunslingers have a shot that makes mobs take more damage.. There are a lot of things yoiu can do.. But causing hurt feelings by pointing the finger at someone is never the right answer.. Never.. I can tell if someone is slacking off and you can be sure that after a talk with my officers, if we need to chat with someone in private about performance, we will.. So far there hasn't been a need..

 

Seriously bro.. I don't need to point the finger at anyone if we don't have enough DPS on the boss.. There are alternatives on how to handle things like that.. But if you want to be a jerk and call out your fellow guildies and point fingers, then that is your choice.. You will at least know why when your guild is empty.. Like I said.. My guild is having no problem downing bosses.. We are progressing just fine and having a blast.. We haved good players in our guild.. No meter required..

 

I am in a good guild.. Without a meter.. As is every other guild in this game.. We don't need a meter..

 

Again.. I would agree with one that shows everyone their own DPS.. But not one that shows everyone else their DPS too.. We simply don't need it.. And if you need it to be a good guild.. Then your not in a good guild..

Edited June 5, 2012 by MajikMyst

[Vicrodhe]

My personal damage meter:

 

1) I hit stuff

2)

A) it dies

B) I die

 

If 2-A, damage good. If 2-B damage bad.

 

Done.

 

Do you do regular updates to your damage maters.?

[Doktah]

It's not the damage meters that would be bad, its the people and how they utilize the damage meters that are bad. Damage meters do not provide enough information to get the full picture of what people are actually doing and it may possibly turn into the whole WoW crap...."whats your gear lvl, oh its only 187, yeah you cant group with us, it needs to be 200+"

 

Damage meters are a great thing if used properly but I would rather see a threat meter introduced first. People still have the mentality that they can do whatever they want and not pay attention, just pew pew pew and pull threat then complain that the tank didn't hold agro or they died because the tank sucks. The problem is that people never learn.

 

You will have arguments for and against meters but its how you use it that will determine if its good for the game or not.

[Jawstheshark]

Yeah I am 100% for a personal DPS/HPS/Threat meters for myself that the user can turn on or off to their liking.