Man-Kar Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Statistics and metrics can be often misguiding, as they do not take any circumstances and "human" stuff into account. I mean, its much more important what kind of people your guildies are and is it fun doing content with them. All this "know the performance so you can improve" is illusion IMHO.. You do not have metrics in life (how good father or bad husband you are), but still, somehow you get a "feeling" about your "performance" anyway, its just it is not so cold and empty as just having numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlander Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Statistics and metrics can be often misguiding, as they do not take any circumstances and "human" stuff into account. I mean, its much more important what kind of people your guildies are and is it fun doing content with them. All this "know the performance so you can improve" is illusion IMHO.. You do not have metrics in life (how good father or bad husband you are), but still, somehow you get a "feeling" about your "performance" anyway, its just it is not so cold and empty as just having numbers. Could not care about the type of person.. i have RL friends to take care of that. I want ppl who can do a raid and not be a burden. Also, not only are damage meters on the way but they are going to be keeping your player pvp and pve stats for all to see. Edited February 16, 2012 by Badlander Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man-Kar Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Could not care about the type of person.. i have RL friends to take care of that. I want ppl who can do a raid and not be a burden. Then why would you need live players raiding with you then? Scripted robot players would do better. It's all about fun, isn't it? However, looking from aside both mine and your perspectives are right. It's our own decision how to play and with whom to play. It's a clash, when people with different values group to achieve the same thing. The point is, that damage meters are not "objectively" needed. Some people need it, some don't. Of course, there is no reason not to have them for people who "need" them. Just not everybody does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollcageuk Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Quote: The game would have benefited from that at launch. --No, the game would have suffered becauise of it at launch. Damage meters are abused just as much as they are used. For every group that wants to actually help themselves and each other to get better, there is another group that just wants to show off how leet they are and another group who just want to kick someone out because he doesn't top the list.It has and still does happen all the time. Damage meters are a bad thing. At the moment all hardore bosses are being killed without meters so it is not stopping people from playing, so it can only be to show off or try and damage another players game. Basically all bad things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 This sums it up, People who want a dmg meter will also want gearscore too it breeds epeen and eletismNo, I'm in favor of damage meters, and could care less if they add gear score (which we mostly have already) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novastinger Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I'm 100% for combat logs being added to the game, in fact I want it more than anything else, even more than new content. You guys against this really have no idea what it's like playing a dps class who's focused on operations, and not being able to measure your personal performance, and it's relative effectiveness compared to other teammates. It's mind bogglingly frustrating not having combat logging. Only a very small fraction of players would use combat log results to berate or harass other players with. Besides, exposure to jerks in MMOs or in life are unavoidable from time to time, but how you react to them is entirely up to you. Just join a group of players that fit your style of play, and avoid grouping with those that don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 There's a difference between group wide and personal. FYI, I have no problem with the addition of a personal damage meter. What I was saying was there is no point to a group wide one.No, there's certainly a point to a group wide one. It lets you evaluate your own performance in it's full context; if, for example, you do 20% more damage in this fight than the last... is it because there's a damage increasing mechanic (which would be an across the board increase, and may mean that a 20% increase is under performing), or did you do well that fight.It lets you quickly identify people who are vastly under performing, and to diagnose why they are under performing (many rotation problems can be seen in recount, for example)It lets you quickly identify people who are not performing certain mechanics correctly (who's breaking CC, who's not interrupting, who's standing in fire, who's not curing, did the tank die to lack of healing or a failed tank switch)It allows you to collaborate with other people to help them evaluate differences in gear, spec and rotation.It helps a raid leader to see what happened when a fight went wrong; especially useful when trying new fights with unknown mechanics. And that's only a small set of examples of how it has a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Only a very small fraction of players would use combat log results to berate or harass other players with. The number of people who will use a combat log to berate or harass other players is less than the number of people who will use the in-game chat system to berate of harass players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 A good place for all these metrics tools would be on the Test Server. They need to do more work in that area anyways. But I am sure if they put these meters on there and let people copy or create any level chars on the server, it would be very useful. That way, the min maxers can get their numbers, and the live games can remain "clean". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 A good place for all these metrics tools would be on the Test Server. They need to do more work in that area anyways. But I am sure if they put these meters on there and let people copy or create any level chars on the server, it would be very useful. That way, the min maxers can get their numbers, and the live games can remain "clean".No, the tools existing on test server doesn't help me know that bob is doing X wrong on Y fight, so that doesn't actually allow for all the things that people want to be able to use it for; it only works for a particular subset of people. Personally, I think it's much better for them to add the meters to the live servers and then the people who want to use it can, and the people who don't want to it use it don't have to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotsam Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I don't think meters are solely used to measure dps epeen or determine who is terribad. It would also be a strategy tool to determine when to pop cool downs, how to mitigate dps threat, when healers need to spam, and begin to understand how things fell apart during a wipe. In my opinion it is an essential tool. An in-game analytics system would be great, but the by far the most glaring omission is a combat log. At lease with a log we could write external parsers and manually crawl through data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) No, the tools existing on test server doesn't help me know that bob is doing X wrong on Y fight, so that doesn't actually allow for all the things that people want to be able to use it for; it only works for a particular subset of people. Personally, I think it's much better for them to add the meters to the live servers and then the people who want to use it can, and the people who don't want to it use it don't have to use it. -nods- I understand the need to kick people out of a group, I think it's destructive to the game, that's why I'd like to see people have access to the tools, yet have the live game still have a buffer from what can turn into abhorrent behavior. Like studying for a test with notes on the test server, then taking the test with your knowledge on the live. Edited February 16, 2012 by Vydor_HC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norumaniac Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I don't think meters are solely used to measure dps epeen or determine who is terribad. It would also be a strategy tool to determine when to pop cool downs, how to mitigate dps threat, when healers need to spam, and begin to understand how things fell apart during a wipe. In my opinion it is an essential tool. An in-game analytics system would be great, but the by far the most glaring omission is a combat log. At lease with a log we could write external parsers and manually crawl through data. I agree. But this game is really casual friendly (and i dont think thats a bad thing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 -nods- I understand the need to kick people out of a group, I think it's destructive to the game, that's why I'd like to see people have access to the tools, yet have the live game still have a buffer from what can turn into abhorrent behavior.I'm not sure how this is supposed to related to the quoted text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I'm not sure how this is supposed to related to the quoted text. -shrugs- Don't know what to tell you then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollcageuk Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Quote: A sycophant. How quaint. --not quite, the quote just made me laugh and agree all the same time.I forgot appreciating comedy was not allowed on these forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raazmir Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I just don't see that the game is hard enough and enrage timers are tight enough to warrant NEEDING dps meters to see who isn't "pulling their weight" Maybe in later raids, but not right now, the only use for one right now is an e-peen meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolveroach Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 As long as the Devs don't have to ratchet up the difficulty in ops and HM FPs because the content is too easy for those who like to Min/Max and have used meters. I don't care if a player wants to know how to min/max using data from a meter but I sure as hell don't want to be told how to play my character and have end game content sealed away from me because I won't min/max. Call me a Bad all you want but expect Elitest remarks coming back your way. It is a game not a job and I pay my monthly subscription just like you do. Play the way you want and I will do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 -shrugs- Don't know what to tell you then.You could start by talking about why you're talking about people being kicked from groups while quoting the text that has nothing to do with that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 You could start by talking about why you're talking about people being kicked from groups while quoting the text that has nothing to do with that... Ah, you stated "what people want to use it for"...which from reading this thread and threads about this topic in the past, that is one of the ways people use meters..to make sure they are not "carrying" dead weight in a group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Ah, you stated "what people want to use it for"...which from reading this thread and threads about this topic in the past, that is one of the ways people use meters..to make sure they are not "carrying" dead weight in a group.I gave a specific example of what someone (say, myself) would want from it that has nothing to do kicking people or dead weight...and then pointed out that, because of that specific example, there are legitimate reasons for people to want it on the live servers... So if you want talk about kicking people from groups, you should probably respond to the people who are in favor of that, and maybe quote them talking about it, instead of someone who's not talking about that... Edited February 16, 2012 by ferroz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calsetes Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Ok, my thoughts on something like this: DPS tools for personal, "just my character I'm playing as right now" use? Sure. Some people like that - it's their thing. That's fine - who the hell am I to tell them to not play how they want? DPS tools for group use, as in, "I'm looking at the last fight, and Billy has a DPS three whole points below where he should be! Let's kick Billy, he's obviously dragging everyone down!" use? Hell no. This ties into the first one - play how you want, but don't shove your playstyle onto someone else. Yes, I can see the benefits from the OP's listed example of an extreme case - you can see who's literally just tagging along and not doing anything to help out. However, there's always the extremes, and there will also be those people who harbor a "MUST HAVE X DPS OR WILL KICK" mentality, and that's not cool. Edit: I should add that I do know of other good uses for the "tool for everyone" thing. I mean, if I saw a fellow Sentinel who was lacking in DPS, I'd try to give him a few pointers that might help him boost his numbers - and I'd do it in a nice, polite way. So there are good things about it, but... somethign I've learned from many years of internet usage is that people turn into horrible jerks online about 90% of the time. Edited February 16, 2012 by Calsetes Noticed a spelling error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) I gave a specific example of what someone (say, myself) would want from it that has nothing to do kicking people or dead weight...and then pointed out that, because of that specific example, there are legitimate reasons for people to want it on the live servers... So if you want talk about kicking people from groups, you should probably respond to the people who are in favor of that, and maybe quote them talking about it, instead of someone who's not talking about that... Dood, you responded to me, I had not quoted anyone else. And I said exactly what you quoted, Bob doing x and Y and what people want to use the tool for. Which kicking people from groups is a large part of it. Your quote has very little specifics in it at all. Edited February 16, 2012 by Vydor_HC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nighthawked Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Ok, my thoughts on something like this: DPS tools for personal, "just my character I'm playing as right now" use? Sure. Some people like that - it's their thing. That's fine - who the hell am I to tell them to not play how they want? DPS tools for group use, as in, "I'm looking at the last fight, and Billy has a DPS three whole points below where he should be! Let's kick Billy, he's obviously dragging everyone down!" use? Hell no. This ties into the first one - play how you want, but don't shove your playstyle onto someone else. Yes, I can see the benefits from the OP's listed example of an extreme case - you can see who's literally just tagging along and not doing anything to help out. However, there's always the extremes, and there will also be those people who harbor a "MUST HAVE X DPS OR WILL KICK" mentality, and that's not cool. I agree. Highest possible DPS =/= a great thing to have. I had numerous times in WoW where I would out-threat the tank and get aggro because my DPS was too high. But hey, if I die every fight but I get the highest DPS I can that is ok right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkfinsix Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 My personal damage meter: 1) I hit stuff 2) A) it dies B) I die If 2-A, damage good. If 2-B damage bad. Done. I've been using this damage meter as well, its the best addon ever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts