So Drakolich's thread doesn't get sidetracked by nonsense...

[DakhathKilrathi]

Hey I don't want to stir the pot but I just wanted to show you guys this screenshot of me beating 3 aces (sriia/zyreis, halkain/draelik, skywalkr/sithace) without any aces on my team. I was using a T2 gunship of course. this in itself does not constitute proof but i think it is close as we can get.

 

http://i.imgur.com/PogIhAa.png

 

now you might try to say that their bottom players were blah blah blah but the truth is both of their bottom guys played bombers which were actually kinda tough to kill. they didn't do kills and damage cus that aint their primary job

 

Congrats on fourth place in damage, I guess? Not only were you not top damage on your own team, you didn't beat my damage numbers either (or my kills + assists). Oh, and congrats on beating a team with three or four non-contributors + one or two mediocre players, I guess.

 

If you want to start crap like this, don't post it in Drak's thread. Our bottom players were generally nowhere near a node at any time and you can see that clearly from their low damage and objective numbers. Bombers, if played correctly, should clear at least 20k and they had better have objective points. If you'd like to learn how to play one correctly, I can recommend several players here who could help you with that.

 

Edit: Pro tip: You can sort by damage; just click "damage" at the top of the scoreboard.

Edited January 7, 2016 by DakhathKilrathi

[caederon]

Looking at the screenshot, you can see pretty much all you need to know about that particular match.

 

Krixarc's team had 8 people who spent significant time fighting on the nodes, shown by the objective points.

 

Sriia's team had 1 person who was on the node for any significant time. The people on her team that know what they're doing (aside from the one with 283 objective points, a bomber I am guessing) were likely running around trying to compensate for those who were neither on the node or contributing meaningfully in other ways.

 

Krix, this isn't a knock against your flying skill. I find it very hard to believe that you accomplished what you did solely through the virtues of the T2 gunship, because there is no reason to think that is the case. Even if you don't think T1 gs was the answer there, you could have been flying a T1 bomber and accomplished the same or more. I'd bet that a T3 strike would have had similar results for you in holding a node and solo capping against bombers that don't know what they're doing. A T2 scout would have done the job in a different way.

 

I mainly posted to counter your total dismissal of Syberi as a quality player, though. I thought that was both inaccurate and unsportsmanlike. I've played against and with Syberi enough that I know he contributed quite a bit to that win as well.

 

The team with the better overall strength top to bottom will almost always win a domination match.

 

Despon

Edited January 7, 2016 by caederon

[MDVZ]

There's a phenomenon in psychology, a form of cognitive bias/self delusion that I forget the name of, where if a good thing happens, you attribute it to your actions whether it was you or not, and if a bad thing happens, you blame it on something else, even if it was your fault.

 

Krixarcs is currently demonstrating the first half of that beautifully.

Edited January 7, 2016 by MDVZ

[Homodmitrius]

This guy has enormous EGO if he's rushing to show everyone here his madskillz.

[Maulkat]

Krixarcs, I really don't want to be the one the burst your bubble, but that win was NOT yours alone. GSF is a TEAM effort. I was in the match on a nonmastered alt, in your group! *shock* I may not be an "ace" by your standards, but other than you, who is?

Quality pilots in that match ON your team, I consider to be myself, Syberi, and Donlan as well as you. A domination match isn't the best type of match to show off kill skill or even piloting skill. If I had taken screen shots of some of my flights, you would see that. It is not in my nature to be a numbers or stats whore. It is the win that counts, not the other rubbish. Others aim for different stats, obviously.

Quality members on the opposing team, are Sriia, Sithace and Draelik. The others are new names and were maybe even on their first few flights.

You have thrown me and several others under a large bus and I want to know why. I was told lastnight, I play the GSF like it's supposed to be flown. Play to the objective at hand. In a TDM, the objective is to kill/not be killed, in Dom, hold two nodes...ect. It is the META of the game and something most fliers don't comprehend anymore.

[CrazyGreggy]

There's a phenomenon in psychology, a form of cognitive bias/self delusion that I forget the name of, where if a good thing happens, you attribute it to your actions whether it was you or not, and if a bad thing happens, you blame it on something else, even if it was your fault.

 

Krixarcs is currently demonstrating the first half of that beautifully.

 

Dunning-Kruger Effect?

[MDVZ]

Dunning-Kruger Effect?

 

No, but he's that too. See also: narcissism.

 

It's related to confirmation bias, but not quite the same. It's one of the things that's the basis for superstition - if you take some action and an event correlates with it, but isn't actually causally linked, you link the event with your action regardless. Gamblers also suffer from it; thinking that wins that were pure luck had something to do with how they played.

 

In this case, thinking that a win in game was due to his actions exclusively, because he got decent stats and the team won the match, so he connects his actions alone with the win, ignoring all other factors involved.

 

Kudos for knowing Dunning Kruger effect.

Edited January 7, 2016 by MDVZ

[MDVZ]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion_of_control

 

That's the one.

[Krixarcs]

It is awfully nice of you guys to make a new thread for me, but I can see based on the negativity and bile being spouted here that this is an attempt to goad me into some sort of negative exchange to boost your egos. Why you take issue with me personally and accuse me of being mentally deficient truly shows how low you guys have sunk and how brainwashed you are by the "meta". I will not stoop to your level and engage with such nonsense, even though clearly the point of making this thread was to draw me out so you could gang up on me just like you guys like to do to noobs in game, you truly are good students of the bastioners.

 

If you guys stopped and thought for a second in your lives you would see that you are all missing the whole point of the screenshot. Its not about TEAMS because I actually SOLO QUE unlike you guys and ended up THREE CAPPING you guys in a ship which many of you think is the worst in the game. I am a champion of the T2 gunship and I like to let people know it isn't a bad ship and then I get ATTACKED in the forum for saying it, and then when I beat the very people saying it sucks with it, suddenly im the bad guy. OK.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Krixarcs

[MDVZ]

Its not about TEAMS because I actually SOLO QUE unlike you guys and ended up THREE CAPPING you guys

 

Perfect. Just perfect.

 

So, the other 7 people that appeared green on the map, if they aren't your team, what do you call them?

 

Or to put it another way: could you have three capped the opposing team, which you're claiming sole credit for there, if by some bug or miracle it were 8 V 1?

Edited January 7, 2016 by MDVZ

[FlavivsAetivs]

Okay this is what I don't get: why is everyone sooooooooooo concerned about damage? Damage doesn't win matches, kills do. E.G. Traesha always does more damage yet I get more kills than her.

 

Granted, I'm playing with 1000ms ping usually, so it's hard to hit the broad side of a star destroyer (although I tend to power dive into the Harrowers on Lost Shipyards lol), so I don't expect my damage or accuracy to be particularly high, but I simply don't get how damage matters.

 

Could somebody explain to me why everyone considers it so important?

 

~ Eudoxia

Edited January 7, 2016 by FlavivsAetivs

[tunewalker]

It is awfully nice of you guys to make a new thread for me, but I can see based on the negativity and bile being spouted here that this is an attempt to goad me into some sort of negative exchange to boost your egos. Why you take issue with me personally and accuse me of being mentally deficient truly shows how low you guys have sunk and how brainwashed you are by the "meta". I will not stoop to your level and engage with such nonsense, even though clearly the point of making this thread was to draw me out so you could gang up on me just like you guys like to do to noobs in game, you truly are good students of the bastioners.

 

If you guys stopped and thought for a second in your lives you would see that you are all missing the whole point of the screenshot. Its not about TEAMS because I actually SOLO QUE unlike you guys and ended up THREE CAPPING you guys in a ship which many of you think is the worst in the game. I am a champion of the T2 gunship and I like to let people know it isn't a bad ship and then I get ATTACKED in the forum for saying it, and then when I beat the very people saying it sucks with it, suddenly im the bad guy. OK.

 

I solo que as well, but solo queing does not a solo game make. While the T2 Gunship can be effective, it is not the most effective ship available for what ever task you are trying to do. That's why its called "META" or "Most" "Effective" "Tactic" "Available" there are a lot of people who will play off meta ships or off meta builds with great success, and honestly more power to them (And to you), but that doesnt mean they (or you) should go telling every one this is the new "META" and every one should play this way. Just because it works for you and is something you can use does not mean its the Most Effective Tactic Available, especially for some one else. Breaking the META only works if your in the META first, for new players trying to Learn the META teaching them off Meta builds and ideas is not useful, they need to know how to play around the META stuff before they experiment and get frustrated when something that works for some one who HAS does a lot of experimenting doesnt work for them, because they just arent used to everything.

 

I havent flown with you, or most any one in a while, but if you are having fun, and are enjoying a ship go ahead and do so, but be careful when giving advice, if its a build or a ship that a majority are saying "that's really not that great" then its probably not a "META" or "New player friendly" idea. If it works for you, good for you, but we dont want the new players to get frustrated by trying to play a build that is simply not going to work for them.

[tunewalker]

Okay this is what I don't get: why is everyone sooooooooooo concerned about damage? Damage doesn't win matches, kills do. E.G. Traesha always does more damage yet I get more kills than her.

 

Granted, I'm playing with 1000ms ping usually, so it's hard to hit the broad side of a star destroyer (although I tend to power dive into the Harrowers on Lost Shipyards lol), so I don't expect my damage or accuracy to be particularly high, but I simply don't get how damage matters.

 

Could somebody explain to me why everyone considers it so important?

 

~ Eudoxia

 

Some times people snake kills, if you are doing a lot of damage you are putting in a lot of work against opponents, making gunships move, getting targets to low health alongside an ally, forcing bombers off sats, so on and so forth. Just because you arent succeeding in killing doesnt mean you arent helping with killing. Though to me none of the metrics alone are all that meaningful. Whether it be damage, or kills or objective points. You will know when you contribute to a game usually by the feel. I have had high damage and kills and yet still made a minor decision mistake (Rotating, when I should have stayed) and lost the game for it. At that point I attribute myself for the loss, even if I did great and my team didnt, the only one I can hold accountable is myself I have no control over any one else, so if I made a mistake that cost us the game, its my mistake to pay for.

Edited January 7, 2016 by tunewalker

[Danalon]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion_of_control

 

That's the one.

 

I'd say this one fits too.

 

The interesting lines:

For example, a student who attributes earning a good grade on an exam to their own intelligence and preparation but attributes earning a poor grade to the teacher's poor teaching ability or unfair test questions is exhibiting the self-serving bias. Studies have shown that similar attributions are made in various situations, such as the workplace, interpersonal relationships, sports, and consumer decisions.

 

For GSF those examples could be realistic:

My team wins and I have high numbers, therefore we won because of me.

or

My team wins and I have low numbers, I obviously was to busy doing all the work alone so I couldn't get high numbers.

or

My team loses and I have high numbers, therefore it's my teams fault that we lost.

or

My team loses and I have low numbers, and that's just because all the enemies were focussing me and my team didn't help.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Danalon

[caederon]

if you are doing a lot of damage you are putting in a lot of work against opponents, making gunships move, getting targets to low health alongside an ally, forcing bombers off sats, so on and so forth.

This is a pretty accurate reflection of my views, too. It doesn't especially matter who is getting the kills, as long as someone is, and kills come from doing damage.

 

A good measure of an offensive ship's contribution to either a TDM or domination match is looking at kills + assists and damage on the whole. If you put up good totals in that group of stats, it means you're getting fire on the enemy and doing your part in weakening them. It's debatable where to set a threshold for what constitutes good averaged numbers. I'd say if you're averaging 25k damage and 15 k+a / game or more and spend most of your time flying non-bombers, then you're doing pretty well and are helping your team offensively. Top pilots will most likely be putting up over 40k damage and 20 k+a on average in non-bombers.

 

Medal count (especially in domination matches) can be revealing, too, since it rewards a whole array of positive contributions. Even if you aren't good at gunning down enemy ships, you can contribute very positively in dom matches by being on the node, flying evasively around it when trying to hold on against an attack, dropping heals and ammo refill.

 

In that infamous screenshot from earlier in the thread, you can see how the bottom of the scoreboard on Sriia et al's team shows little contribution on any front. The lack of objective points and medals says they weren't even getting to the node to sit there and stave off the winning side's maneuvers to cap. If they'd had a few more like Sava'ri, it would likely have been a lot closer or a win.

 

I am a champion of the T2 gunship and I like to let people know it isn't a bad ship and then I get ATTACKED in the forum for saying it, and then when I beat the very people saying it sucks with it, suddenly im the bad guy. OK.

The T2 gunship is objectively, measurably worse at producing in all offensive categories compared to the other two gunships.

 

Your argument that it is defensively better than the other two due to its Directional Shields is debatable. It gives you some situational advantages that suit your flying style. I don't feel that balances out the very large offensive deficiencies.

 

I also think that the vast majority of people who fly a T2 gs are making themselves easier kills by virtue of that ship choice (especially if they don't choose your preferred Directional Shields).

 

I take issue with you singling out one match as proof of the superiority of the ship where you have ignored the contribution of the rest of your team and lack thereof from the opposing side.

 

If you want to compare the gunship types, let's get some real data over a large span of matches from T1, T2, T3 gs and look at how they stack up against each other. That would be interesting (though I'm pretty sure would lead to the same conclusions).

 

Despon

[MDVZ]

I'd say this one fits too.

 

The interesting lines:

For example, a student who attributes earning a good grade on an exam to their own intelligence and preparation but attributes earning a poor grade to the teacher's poor teaching ability or unfair test questions is exhibiting the self-serving bias. Studies have shown that similar attributions are made in various situations, such as the workplace, interpersonal relationships, sports, and consumer decisions.

 

For GSF those examples could be realistic:

My team wins and I have high numbers, therefore we won because of me.

or

My team wins and I have low numbers, I obviously was to busy doing all the work alone so I couldn't get high numbers.

or

My team loses and I have high numbers, therefore it's my teams fault that we lost.

or

My team loses and I have low numbers, and that's just because all the enemies were focussing me and my team didn't help.

 

Actually yes, spot on. That is exactly what I was looking for. I admit, I settled on the illusion of control bias while looking for it, thinking 'that must be it, I must have mis-remembered the definition'. Confirmation bias on my part, perhaps

[SeCKSEgai]

It is awfully nice of you guys to make a new thread for me, but I can see based on the negativity and bile being spouted here that this is an attempt to goad me into some sort of negative exchange to boost your egos. Why you take issue with me personally and accuse me of being mentally deficient truly shows how low you guys have sunk and how brainwashed you are by the "meta". I will not stoop to your level and engage with such nonsense, even though clearly the point of making this thread was to draw me out so you could gang up on me just like you guys like to do to noobs in game, you truly are good students of the bastioners.

 

If you guys stopped and thought for a second in your lives you would see that you are all missing the whole point of the screenshot. Its not about TEAMS because I actually SOLO QUE unlike you guys and ended up THREE CAPPING you guys in a ship which many of you think is the worst in the game. I am a champion of the T2 gunship and I like to let people know it isn't a bad ship and then I get ATTACKED in the forum for saying it, and then when I beat the very people saying it sucks with it, suddenly im the bad guy. OK.

 

Speaking of egos.... the irony.

 

I solo queue a lot, and I can get all too annoyed by stacked premades.

There are times where I know I carried, and there are times where I got pretty scores because my team played well.

 

Where you see yourself being the key factor in the win, real aces can see that your team played the objectives better. Just the other day I was up against a stacked premade and got 7 gunships to turn on me at the same time. Considering all the targets they had to choose from, it's almost like a sign of respect to warrant that much attention. And the reality was they were simply playing the objectives, dealing with the biggest threat to their back line since there were no other major threats to their dominance.

 

You can't prove a ship is better if you can't recognize the role teammates play. I can get 20+ kills one game and barely break 5 another. There's more to winning than kills/kill ratio and damage.

 

If I wanted to inflate my win-loss record I could always just stack the deck and play with strong premades to minimize chance of loss. But without challenge there's little to no improvement.

[Maulkat]

But without challenge there's little to no improvement.

 

When I am on Six or Lucky, I do team up. When I'm on alts, I will solo queue sometimes. I enjoy challenging games and winning them. I certainly have room to improve and get better on ships. Rarely do I have more than 4 in a group though and I group with anybody from people on their first flight to mastered veterans.

 

I also fly around on other servers and solo queue there as well when a group isn't offered. It might be because other than TRE and Harb, I fly under different names than Six/Lucky. As my ships grow, I become more effective at "pulling" teams and yes, I have pulled teams to victory on non mastered ships. For the most part, I'm not a killer though, I'm a team player.

 

Now back to the topic at hand, Krixarcs is a good pilot on whatever ship he or she picks. Same can be said for almost anybody with an srw tag, people in Unrelenting as well as many random fliers I trip across. Many people will pick non META ships when they are faced with a pack of noobs and still the games end in a roflestomp because the opposing team just doesn't have the knowledge of how to fly.

 

Reguardless, if he or she wants to think himself an ace at a ship considered weaker by most, more power to him or her.

[tunewalker]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8735526&postcount=501

 

This is in no way useful to Drak's thread. If you want to boast how you are the greatest thing since sliced bread, then please do so on a place that isnt going to bog down a helpful thread and discourage new players from asking useful questions. I tried asking a "how was the server" question simply to try to move away from such things and turn the thread helpful again. As you can see its perfectly possible to respond in a different thread.

Edited January 8, 2016 by tunewalker

[FlavivsAetivs]

Some times people snake kills, if you are doing a lot of damage you are putting in a lot of work against opponents, making gunships move, getting targets to low health alongside an ally, forcing bombers off sats, so on and so forth. Just because you arent succeeding in killing doesnt mean you arent helping with killing. Though to me none of the metrics alone are all that meaningful. Whether it be damage, or kills or objective points. You will know when you contribute to a game usually by the feel. I have had high damage and kills and yet still made a minor decision mistake (Rotating, when I should have stayed) and lost the game for it. At that point I attribute myself for the loss, even if I did great and my team didnt, the only one I can hold accountable is myself I have no control over any one else, so if I made a mistake that cost us the game, its my mistake to pay for.

 

Thanks for explaining that.

 

Yeah I usually do around 35-38K damage in my Clarion in a match and usually end up with the most or very high in kill count, and most of matches I'm just protorping bombers left and right, snapping them off on scouts, and chasing gunships so I work for my kills.

 

I see what you mean about how it is reflective. As a Clarion pilot I'd say in a normal match about 1/4 to 1/2 of my kills get stolen out from under me. I can see pilots get almost 20 kills but less than 20K in damage because they're sniping kills out from under players.

 

~ Eudoxia

Edited January 8, 2016 by FlavivsAetivs