whitemountains Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 I just have quick question to pose to the many people that hated the introduction of this concept in The Phantom Menace. Isn't it pretty much established that not everyone has "access" to the force and that people that do have an affinity for it are of varying strengths (i.e. "The force is strong with this one"). With that being the case, why is it so unreasonable that there would be a test to quantify that? I am not saying I like the concept necessarily, but it doesn't bother me nearly as much as it seems to bother a lot of other people. I get that it removes some of the "mysticism" of The Force, but it just seems to me being able to test it and quantify it shouldn't be all that shocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDutchman Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 I think a lot of the problem is that so many people had their own head-canon for the force and then got it dashed. Also, apparently Lucas used to consider the force as everyone having it, just most didn't bother and were so weak in it there was no point. I think the analogy he used was yoga. Everyone can, but few bother, and even those that bother, few are actually good, or even worth mentioning. In a way, this is still true. All life has the midi-chlorians, but most don't have a concentration high enough to be useful. I don't think anyone knows what the magic number is, or what it means for someone to have a higher count, but not beyond the magic number. Another source of weirdness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zharik Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) Can you quantify how much you believe in god vs how much I do? As far as how bad some things were in TPM, Jar Jar and midichlorians are tied for the worst, imo. I mean the poodoo jokes (weren't there like 5?!?) were better than Jar Jar/midichlorians, so were the children actors... and the dialog. Edit: I would like to thank the universe for reminding me how much I appreciate JJ Abrams right now... Edited January 1, 2016 by Zharik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raandomname Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 Yeah the midichlorian-hate is one of those things Ill probably never really understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drakensang Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) It threatens to take away the mystical awe, I think. Once you start counting midichlorians and develop some pseudo-scientific theories about how the force works, someone will start working on appliances to use it. Next you know everyone runs around with handheld force-projectors, and then what would be special about the jedi and their special connection to the divine, for the religiously inclined? I mean, imagine there was a god, and we would not only confirm its existence, but work out its properties and working principles too. Wouldn't we at leas try to work out how to use it as an energy source and find other productive uses for it? Edited January 1, 2016 by drakensang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlogg Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) It threatens to take away the mystical awe, I think. Once you start counting midichlorians and develop some pseudo-scientific theories about how the force works, someone will start working on appliances to use it. I think the intended implication is that this is exactly what Palpatine did. I recently watched two out of three* movies of the prequel trilogy and I was pleasantly suprised! There were things that I didn't really like but It was much less flawed /rambling than I imagined to remember (including Hayden Christensen's acting which was actually quite good in RotS!), and the significance of the midichlorides theory is put into perspective here by Sideous/Palpatine. (I actually almost forgot that entire dialogue, thinking the midichloride hypothesis was a dead end from Episode I.) Tip for the haters: maybe you can stomach it by realizing it is only a hypothesis from some force-users (Qui-Gonn, Palpatinee and allegedly Plaguis) and not a commonly held view. The midichlorides might as well be a result rather than a cause of someone's force-sensivity. In that view, the midichlorides do not 'carry' force-sensivity, but rather have a commensal relationship with the force-sensitive sentient. *(I am following the Machete Order to introduce my younglings into the Saga Oh, and Robot Chicken ) Edited January 1, 2016 by Orlogg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raandomname Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Can you quantify how much you believe in god vs how much I do? The number of midichlorians has absolutely nothing to do with believing in the force. In TFA (not a spoiler, its in the trailer) we see that Han belives in the force, although he clearly isnt force-sensitive. In fact we hear loads of non-force-sensitive characters throughout Star Wars say "may the force be with you", clearly they still belive in the force. Hell Anikin the person with the highest midichlorian count ever, constantly shows that he does not belive in the force, constantly going against the force's will and even refusing his position as Chosen One in TWC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raandomname Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 It threatens to take away the mystical awe, I think. Once you start counting midichlorians and develop some pseudo-scientific theories about how the force works, someone will start working on appliances to use it. Next you know everyone runs around with handheld force-projectors, and then what would be special about the jedi and their special connection to the divine, for the religiously inclined? I mean, imagine there was a god, and we would not only confirm its existence, but work out its properties and working principles too. Wouldn't we at leas try to work out how to use it as an energy source and find other productive uses for it? Thats kind of the point. The Jedi who accept the force's will, choose to co-exist with the midichlorians in a mutualistic relationship without trying to use them to their own ends, while the Sith who see the force as a tool to be used as they see fit, manipulate the midichlorians to their own benefit. In fact, I would say that the existence of the midichlorians makes the Jedis' connection to the force more spiritual in a way, because the Jedi actually choose to ignore the scientific possibilities of the midichlorians and to co-exist although they know they could achieve personal benefirs by manipulating the midichlorians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drakensang Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) Thats kind of the point. The Jedi who accept the force's will, choose to co-exist with the midichlorians in a mutualistic relationship without trying to use them to their own ends, while the Sith who see the force as a tool to be used as they see fit, manipulate the midichlorians to their own benefit. In fact, I would say that the existence of the midichlorians makes the Jedis' connection to the force more spiritual in a way, because the Jedi actually choose to ignore the scientific possibilities of the midichlorians and to co-exist although they know they could achieve personal benefirs by manipulating the midichlorians. Not the point I was trying to make. I meant that many people hate it when you do in the wizard, because when they identify with their heroes, they like to have them connected with something mystical and greater than all the mundane forces. To have them - metaphorically - on a mission from god. If you reduce the force to some mundane phenomenon, like gravity or electromagnetic forces, it takes away this mystical justification. 'We are on a mission from gravity' or 'We follow the will of electromagnetism'' or 'Thermodynamics is with us.' simply doesn't have that oomph. Edited January 2, 2016 by drakensang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zharik Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 The number of midichlorians has absolutely nothing to do with believing in the force. In TFA (not a spoiler, its in the trailer) we see that Han belives in the force, although he clearly isnt force-sensitive. In fact we hear loads of non-force-sensitive characters throughout Star Wars say "may the force be with you", clearly they still belive in the force. Hell Anikin the person with the highest midichlorian count ever, constantly shows that he does not belive in the force, constantly going against the force's will and even refusing his position as Chosen One in TWC. The point of my comparison completely went over your head... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedusz Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) They are not important enough for them to deserve either hate or love. Edited January 2, 2016 by Kaedusz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raandomname Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 The point of my comparison completely went over your head... Very well explained and formulated point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zharik Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Very well explained and formulated point. I bet you watched DBZ too (my son watched it and I avoided it as much as I could so my brain cells could be spared... but "Uooohhh , that's over 9000!" is exactly what I am talking about). If you quantify something that should be mystical, then you spoil its magic. My comparison was to illustrate the mystical point and it went over your head. You admit that you don't understand the hate for midichlorians... so I guess if you continue to push your view, you're actually trolling, not trying to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knowmyname Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 This discussion shows your age. The force was magical. Not something you can put in a jar and have it on display. Some people had it, others didn't. Some people were strong with the force while others were weak. That is how it has been since 1997. So when this magical all knowing force was dumbed down to a bug in 1999 it ruined everything we were lead to believe. It changed everything we knew. It didn't make sense and that's why most dispute the changes episode 1 brought. Those that grew up with episode 1 didn't understand the force without the bug. They didn't have a chance for their imagination to run its course and create a mythos. It was explained quite happen stance in episode 1. And those people thought nothing of it. It wasn't this huge mysterious power. It's just a bug. You missed out on he magical properties and myth it created from 1977 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fyurii Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Yeah the midichlorian-hate is one of those things Ill probably never really understand. Their inclusion in TPM rips apart what we were already told of the Force itself (not elaborates upon, but completely rewrites it) "The Force is an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, it penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together" (Obi-Wan Kenobi, ANH) and "Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us" (Yoda, ESB), to "Without the midichlorians, life could not exist and we would have no knowledge of the Force" (Qui-Gon Jinn, TPM) Life could not exist without the midichlorians, which means no Force. Trying to make a space fantasy/space opera into sci-fi. Twenty years without any major change, and Lucas and his "yes men" decide to use the thing his own peers had told him was too stupid to put into a movie, (midichlorians appeared during early drafts for the first movie) and use it as a throw away plot device to build up how special Anakin is, and to badly push a theme of symbiotic relationships, which is hammered away at us throughout TPM, including Qui-Gon telling Anakin that they are symbionts. TL;DR -> They're pointless and only in there for throw away plot points because Lucas paid good money for cowards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raandomname Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 I bet you watched DBZ too (my son watched it and I avoided it as much as I could so my brain cells could be spared... but "Uooohhh , that's over 9000!" is exactly what I am talking about). If you quantify something that should be mystical, then you spoil its magic. My comparison was to illustrate the mystical point and it went over your head. You admit that you don't understand the hate for midichlorians... so I guess if you continue to push your view, you're actually trolling, not trying to understand. Nope I didnt watch DBZ and Id appreciate it if you could stop using insults and makeing asumptions about me simply because I disagree with your stance on a sci fi franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadsterPwns Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 (edited) They are not important enough for them to deserve either hate or love. This, though to be honest I prefer having them because it provides a reason as to why everyone isn't using it. Lets face it if everyone could use it, why would people choose not too? Edited January 3, 2016 by PadsterPwns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDutchman Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 This, though to be honest I prefer having them because it provides a reason as to why everyone isn't using it. Lets face it if everyone could use it, why would people choose not too? Everyone can become a master martial artist, why does anyone choose not to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadsterPwns Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Everyone can become a master martial artist, why does anyone choose not to? To be fair, martial arts are completely different to telekinesis, imagine how useful TK would be. That said, you do raise a fair point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zharik Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 (edited) Nope I didnt watch DBZ and Id appreciate it if you could stop using insults and makeing asumptions about me simply because I disagree with your stance on a sci fi franchise. To be fair your sarcastic reply came first. Star Wars is Science Fantasy (also called Space Opera) not Science Fiction. Star Trek is Science Fiction. The difference is the level of pseudo-scientific explanations vs mystical explanations of the things that we (Earthlings) cannot do right now. Ironically, I think this is also the point you are missing from the original argument. Edited January 3, 2016 by Zharik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDutchman Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 To be fair, martial arts are completely different to telekinesis, imagine how useful TK would be. That said, you do raise a fair point. In a galaxy of tractor beams, repulsers and anti-grav? a whole lot of effort and training so as not to have to carry a little equipment around. The highest levels of force ability might be hard to match with tech, but those are exceedingly rare. Same general reason as many martial artists, to be able to defend themselves without the need for weapons. Sure, a guy with a gun (at a decent range) will have the upperhand against a guy without, no matter the training, but that situation is also very rare (even in the US). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitemountains Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 This discussion shows your age. The force was magical. Not something you can put in a jar and have it on display. Some people had it, others didn't. Some people were strong with the force while others were weak. That is how it has been since 1997. So when this magical all knowing force was dumbed down to a bug in 1999 it ruined everything we were lead to believe. It changed everything we knew. It didn't make sense and that's why most dispute the changes episode 1 brought. Those that grew up with episode 1 didn't understand the force without the bug. They didn't have a chance for their imagination to run its course and create a mythos. It was explained quite happen stance in episode 1. And those people thought nothing of it. It wasn't this huge mysterious power. It's just a bug. You missed out on he magical properties and myth it created from 1977 Um, I am 42, so did grow up with the originals. Likely makes me worse in your eyes, but so be it. My point was that something that is clearly at varying levels within people, would, by definition, be measurable. May not go along with what the originals led us to believe, but it doesn't make it any less reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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